Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: natas on April 05, 2012, 01:23:48 pm
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So breathingcolor has there own version of Metallic paper. They claim this stuff is closer to Kodak's Metallic process. Has anyone tried this stuff? I may pick up a trial roll to see how well it does on my 7900.
More info: https://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/223/
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Interesting claims made there "Vibrance Metallic is the first and currently the only metallic photo paper that delivers a comparable look, feel, and quality of the Kodak® metallic process."
I wonder if that means it is different from anyone else's metallic papers which are all made by Mitsubishi.
I've never found inkjet super gloss or metallic papers that keeps the look after it is printed. This is because the ink covers up much of the gloss and metallic sheen underneath. Real photographic silver RC papers do not have this problem as the gloss and metallic reflective surface is on top of the Silver halide.
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I'm extremely skeptical that this is anything other than the Mitsubishi paper.
Neil
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So far I measured three metallic papers, the Red River Polar Pearl Metallic and two Arca Proline, one satin, one gloss. To the eye they looked similar but the Arca type showed a higher white reflectance and OBAs in the paper base where the Red River did not have both.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update april 2012: Harman by Hahnemühle, Innova IFA45 and more
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pretty hard to duplicate the look of Kodak metallic, just not the same to put ink on top vs. translucent dyes. Part of the metallic look is the pure gloss, just can't get the same perfect gloss with inkjet.
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I've never found inkjet super gloss or metallic papers that keeps the look after it is printed. This is because the ink covers up much of the gloss and metallic sheen underneath. Real photographic silver RC papers do not have this problem as the gloss and metallic reflective surface is on top of the Silver halide.
Dye inks with more transparency than the pigment inks we now mainly use should deliver more similarity to Kodak Endura Metallic with its CMY chromogene dyes on top of the metallic reflective layer. It is very unlikely that the chromogene color layer of Kodak's version is beneath the metallic layer. Metallic layers usually have a high opacity and any color gamut would be lost if it was the other way around. Gloss of whatever kind is always on top and only dyes, whether coupled chromogene or inkjet inks will deliver best gloss surfaces if no extra gloss varnishes or laminations are applied.
Next to the above, Kodak's metallic layer could still be of a unique reflective quality.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad,piëzografie,giclée
www.pigment-print.com
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I'm extremely skeptical that this is anything other than the Mitsubishi paper.
Neil
Neil,
This won't be another re-hash of papers. The "pearl metallics" currently offered are nice, but this new metallic should have more punch. I was able to look at some of the early versions and finishes, but haven't seen the final offering from BC yet; I've got a test roll coming. IMHO, I don't think anything from an inkjet can touch the Kodak Endura Metallic, and in reality it's an unfair comparison based on the process. But if BC's metallic paper offering can just get close, they will have a winner. PM sent.
Ken
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I actually have both the Breathing Color and RedRiver metalic papers on order to try out. I'll let you know my thoughts, at least in relation to other inkjet. It's been SO long since i saw the Kodak, I really couldn't give an honest comparison with that. I tried some metalic paper from i2i (from Lyson - had some samples froma show), and it wasn't bad. Very nice actually (including being on a cotton rag substrate, so nice feel). But under a lightbox, I honestly could say I could "see" the metalic sheen and increased depth.
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interesting no one has mentioned Inkpress Metalic - I don't find it to be too horrible, I do find the company annoying to work with. My BC trial roll is in the mail.
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I actually have both the Breathing Color and RedRiver metalic papers on order to try out. I'll let you know my thoughts, at least in relation to other inkjet. It's been SO long since i saw the Kodak, I really couldn't give an honest comparison with that.
I did a side-by-side comparison when the first wave of metallic inkjet papers first hit the market. You can read my thoughts at: http://www.danecreek.com/blog/2010/06/16/metallic-inkjet-paper-review-three-contenders-to-replace-kodak-endura-metallic.html.
Neil
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Why is it we never hear of any attempts from Kodak to reproduce their Kodak Endura Metallic for inkjet. (Maybe it cannot be done.)
If they could pull this off it may not turn the company around but they would have a top seller for sure.
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pretty hard to duplicate the look of Kodak metallic, just not the same to put ink on top vs. translucent dyes. Part of the metallic look is the pure gloss, just can't get the same perfect gloss with inkjet.
I agree. A gloss optimizer would help though. Any kind of varnish or face mounting helps a ton.
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Breathing Color sent a trial size 17" roll of the Vibrance Metallic 255gsm paper and I've finally made some print samples. I used the Epson 4900 with BC's canned profile, and the Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper media selection in the Epson driver. The profile seems rather good.
I can't tell if this is the Mitsubishi paper or not, and my only prior experience with inkjet metallics is the Red River branded Polar Metallic. To my eye the papers are similar to one another, but I'll need additional time and printing test to talk about differences between the metallic's made by BC and RR.
In my view, I'd encourage anyone interested enough to read this to try at least one of these papers and see for yourself if you haven't yet, as I'm glad I did. While the pigment inks laid atop a reflectance layer can probably never reproduce the Kodak Endura result, I still feel it's of value for certain images. In my hands, the metallic inkjet papers shine when Dmax and gamut are a priority, and I'll say that subjectively each of these eclipses my usual paper when these parameters are a priority, Canson Baryta Photographique. But the property of greatest interest is the appearance of depth, and this is most expressed by high-key content. I suspect this is as simple as smaller doses of pigment being laid down in such image areas, and as a result, the opacity of the mask preventing light from making its way out from the reflective layer is reduced vs. densely inked areas.
I'll add that this 3rd dimension is most apparent if the high key areas have some decent high frequency detail. Some recent print work has, for example, tack-sharp water droplets streaming off a black wetsuit worn by by swimmers, and this paper really makes it quite a sight to behold.
Scott Martin mentions above possible value in either a gloss optimizer or a face mounting. Since some of my metallics have been informal gifts, I have used a glossy laminate to face the print after 1/2" Gator Foam mounting. The glossy laminate is something I'd never use for a serious print, but it does - at the minimum - not detract from the sparkle and pop that these metallic high-key high DR prints have.
So while my comments are purely anecdotal and are badly quantified, I'll just offer that the inkjet metallic process holds my interest from some subjects. Since I've given up resenting the papers for not giving us what Kodak Endura did, I'm enjoying what they do offer. In my book, purist or not, there is a look that I don't think we can achieve any other way right now.
John Caldwell
Pittsburgh, PA
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I have tested the RR and BC papers earlier this year. Using the Canon Pro 9000 (dye inks) I note an enhanced pop or vibrance, especially in color prints. For my rare B&W's on the Canon, the deep blacks exhibit a disturbing 'flare' generated by the interior metallic layer. My Epson 3880, (pigment inks) not being transparent appear 'flatter'; more so for B&W prints than color. Both papers exhibit, to my eyes, identical surfaces, the base stock does not.
BC's Vibrance Luster yields excellent visual dynamics on both printers, their recently re-released Crystalline canvas with glossy surface really pops. But ink pooling is creating a blotchy background, cutting back the ink loading by 15% (as advised) helps but flattens the tonal scale--I think product is on hold once again. I sure hope it gets 'fixed'-no sealing rqd, robust weight and can be hung like tapestry-no frames or wrap rqd!!
irv weiner
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Ilford should have a metallic paper too and I think I did see a new one from Moab on the Photokina that comes next to the Slickrock. No samples of both so far. There are two semi-metallic samples of BonJet here that I have to measure.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
370+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, October 2012:
added Tetenal-Kodak, renewed Ilford-Innova-Hahnemühle-Pictorico
soon Bonjet-Permajet-FelixSchoeller-Mitsubishi-Kodak(more)
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Does anyone know anything about Pictorico paper?
Is it one of those metallic papers?
I have a possible customer wanting me to print on this stuff and I've never heard of it.
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Pictorico hi-gloss white is a beautiful paper and not metallic.
When I started face mounting to acrylic I wanted to use a paper that had no texture.
After running samples with our Epson gloss papers just about all of thm had one form of texture or another and not good for facemounting.
The metallics showed the most promise but images with quite alot of white were just not right.
I ordered a pack of the Pictorico white film and it is lovely.
Smooth,no texture and a very bright white.
To date I have not found a better paper for face mounting.
If you have seen dye sublimation on hi gloss white metal it has a similar look. (Not as good but still nice.)
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Thanks, Dan. ;)
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We have our personal brand of metallic papers called Simply Elegant. You can get a sample of all 5 versions (3 sheets of each). The product number is PSMSAM that you can see on our site for more information. The Pure Gold and Pure Silver require a solvent spray applied after printing due to the coating.
Let us know if you have questions regarding these papers. We also sell metallic canvas from IJ technologies that is a big hit.
sales@atlex.com
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Does anyone know anything about Pictorico paper?
Is it one of those metallic papers?
I have a possible customer wanting me to print on this stuff and I've never heard of it.
Although it sounds very Italianate, Pictorico is a brand name used by Mitsubishi.
Brian A
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Do any of the Metallic papers work with the HPZ3200?
If so which one works the best?
Thanks
Steven
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Does any of the metallic inkjet papers come in 60inch rolls?
Regards,
Stefan
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Do any of the Metallic papers work with the HPZ3200?
If so which one works the best?
Thanks
Steven
Funny you should ask. Yesterday I asked the sales rep at Breathing Color why they don't make Paper Presets for the HP Z series machines available for the Vibrance Metallic. He conceded that they don't but didn't have a rationale. I'm considering making a Z3200 preset for the BC Vibrance, and I'll guess that I'd just use as a starting point a glossy media type with the internet profile-making ability. Maybe others will have some insight regarding the most rational selecting in making a custom paper preset with the Z3200.
I'm still pretty excited about this Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic paper. The few samples I've made on our Epson 4900 really do have a character that I haven't seen in any inkjet print before, so long as the paper is paired with the right image content.
John Caldwell
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John,
I just got in my test roll from BC, I ended up using the Moab SlickRock Pearl .OMS file then did a calibration then a profile.
Should have some results by the end of the day.
There seems to be a lot of "Metallic" papers coming out and really wonder if there is really any difference between any of them.
Steven
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Nice, Steven. May I ask why you used the Moab Slick Rock Pearly .OMS as a starting point rather than, say, one of the HP glossy papers? I'll trust that since the Moab is a metallic, it's reasonable to assume that they had done the research to look for the best ink limits and such, so starting with Moab's .OMS makes sense.
Have you used the Moab metallic, by the way? If so, is it an interesting paper?
Not being critical of your approach, just curious.
John Caldwell
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You can always try a sample pack or our metallic paper. PSMSAM is the product number. It contains 3 sheets of Metallic Glossy, Metallic Pearl, Pure Gold, Pure Silver and Moonglow. Our papers are pretty much similar to Moabs versions, but at a lower price. Our paper is part of our Simply Elegant line.
Atlex.com
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Regarding the Atlex metallics, does anyone know the basis of the requirement for a solvent spray finishing step? Is this becaase the surface is mechanically fragile? Several here have guess aloud that Mitsubishi is the maker of several rebranded metallics, so I wonder that if the Atlex and, say, Red River are the same metallic papars, why one would mandate a solvent protection and the other not.
John Caldwell
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So far I have only seen 2 kinds of metallic paper, the Moab Slickrock Metallic Pearl RC- Red River Polar Pearl Metallic RC is one and then there is a metallic paper for the Canon dry minilab called Dream Labo Metallic Silky RC which has a more metallic paint surface, dye compatible only I guess as that machine has 7 dyes. Very different effect between the two types.
There is a 260gsm Pearlescent RC paper from Mitsubishi with three variations in surface texture that is seen with different brand names and on some Metallic added but it is Pearlescent in appearence.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
400+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, October 2012:
Extended: Ilford-Innova-Hahnemühle-Pictorico,
NEW added: Tetenal-Mitsubishi, NEW halfway: Kodak-Bonjet,
NEW to do: Permajet-FelixSchoeller-Sihl
Would like to get samples: InkPress-JonCone
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Ernst, Are you saying that the Moab Slickrock and Red River Polar Metallic are the same material, just rebranded? Are they a Mitsubishi product? Don't mean to put you on the spot is this violates your consulting relationships.
Thanks,
John Caldwell
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Ernst, Are you saying that the Moab Slickrock and Red River Polar Metallic are the same material, just rebranded? Are they a Mitsubishi product? Don't mean to put you on the spot is this violates your consulting relationships.
Thanks,
John Caldwell
Having the sheets next to one another and the spectral plots of front and back I do not see a difference. I guess SpectrumViz is at a point where companies like to have their media range included + their paper distribution links. If not there are other ways to get the samples. There is no consulting done other than to the readers of my messages. The donation clock is stuck at $ 5.- for 6 months so that will not get worse either.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
400+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, October 2012:
Extended: Ilford-Innova-Hahnemühle-Pictorico,
NEW added: Tetenal-Mitsubishi, NEW halfway: Kodak-Bonjet,
NEW to do: Permajet-FelixSchoeller-Sihl
Would like to get samples: InkPress-JonCone
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John,
I just got in my test roll from BC, I ended up using the Moab SlickRock Pearl .OMS file then did a calibration then a profile.
Should have some results by the end of the day.
There seems to be a lot of "Metallic" papers coming out and really wonder if there is really any difference between any of them.
Steven
Steven, Any results with the Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic on the Z3200? Curious to hear of your experience.
John Caldwell
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Just to answer some of these questions (already informed John), but most of the metallics are from the same plant and rebranded. Gold and Silver have a type of fragile coating that requires the solvent spray to make the ink stick properly; but the quality and finishing product is well worth it. We have personally done tests and love the outcome. You can use any solvent spray for digital printing (there isn't just one version for this).
We will sell our version at a cheaper price than most others will; like Moab Slickrock.
As for the 60" rolls, due to the metallic ability, these won't be possible to make from what I was told. 44" is the largest size the manufacturing plant is able to create.
Metallic profiles would just be the printer profiles for the finish.
Metallic Gloss- Premium Glossy w/ Photo Blk
Metallic Pearl- Premium Luster w/ Photo Blk
Pure Gold- Semigloss w/ photo blk
Pure Silver- Premium Luster w/ photo blk
These are our personal brand names from our Simply Elegant line, but the finish would be the same as other companies.
sales@atlex.com
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I did run test prints on the Atlex five different metallics offered in their sample pack today. I'll disqualify myself from being able to judge three of these papers, other than to say that I hate them deeply, and can't imagine what kind of photographic content one would choose to print on the Pure Silver, Pure Gold or Moonglow. These papers offer basically the appearance of any paper you have in mind, but only after spray painting it with metallic silver or gold model airplane paint. The inkjet print appearance follows that idea quite neatly, in my mind. Truly awful, if one is expecting an image to render in any linear way as it would with the papers we normally discuss here - but possibly interesting to the artist creating something outside the box. I'll certainly accept the premise that there is no other way you'll achieve this look without using these three Atlex papers, Pure Silver, Pure Gold or Moonglow. As a side note, the Pure Silver and Pure Gold exhibited heavy ink pooling and coalescence of ink passes until I dealt with the driver settings on our 4900. In summary I now understand why Atlex posts no ICC profiles for these three papers: Worrying about custom ICC profiles for these papers would be like insisting that you measure a tree trunk with a micrometer; marking it with chalk; and cutting it with an axe.
The Atlex Chrome Glossy is a nice paper and will be fundamentally familiar to anyone who has tried the Red River Polar Metallic, the Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic, or the Moab Slickrock - and probably others. I like these papers and what they can offer to the right image.
The 5th remaining Atlex paper is the Metallic Pearl, and this occupies an interesting slot that is between a pearlescent surface - say Canson Baryta Photographique, Ilford GFS or Museo Silver Rag- and a metallic surfae. This paper, the Pearl, is the most interesting to me in that I'm not personally aware of any similar material. That said, I'd probably choose the Chrome Glossy, the paper that most resembles what I now regard as familiar in character, when I want that look.
As an aside, Red River today announced that their Polar Metallic will be available in 300 gram/square meter weight, as of next week. RR tells me it's the same surface, so any ICC profile that was good with the original Red River Polar Metallic 255g material will still be good.
Another aside: I did create a Z3200 Preset for the Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic, using the HP Glossy media (not sure of the exact vocabulary in the HP driver) with standard ink limits and platen. Initial impression is that there will be no reason you can't make this paper style work on a Z machine.
Best to all,
John Caldwell
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Hello to all, this is my first time posting here; I was fascinated by this thread and can’t help but jump in at the deep end of the pool.
With regard to this discussion of metallic papers I can’t provide any information regarding the relative merits of one metallic paper maker over another, or who is actually making the papers, or even if they compare at all to Kodak’s paper, which I must confess I have never laid eyes on. But, having just this afternoon made my first print on some of BC’s Vibrance Metallic paper, as well as their Vibrance Rag and Gloss using BC’s ICC’s on my 9880, I must admit to being suitably impressed by the Metallic. Particularly with the depth of detail and tonal range that can be visualized in the shadows. Under standard viewing light there does seem to be some difference between the BC Metallic and the Gloss, but as light is added the Metallic does become significantly more pleasing, to my untrained eye at least. Again tonal gradation and detail in the shadows seem enhanced on the metallic paper. With the challenging file I chose to test these papers with the Gloss paper showed some blocked shadow areas as expected, the metallic less so, again when viewed under standard lighting. Taking both prints into harsh direct sunlight the Gloss papers shadows were still blocked but the apparently blocked areas of the Metallic papers shadows came delicately alive with detail and tonal gradations. If I can make prints that benefit from this, remains to be seen.
In the for what it’s worth column I think I know what is being used to achieve the wet paint ”metallic” look the BC Metallic paper seems to have. The bare paper I handled this afternoon very much reminds me of the pearl white metallic I have seen on some high end aftermarket car finishes. I think the Metallic papers may have a dose of Rheoscopic Concentrate added to the ink receptor layer, anyway that is my guess. Maybe someone with more experience in these matters can set me straight.
Later Larry
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In the for what it’s worth column I think I know what is being used to achieve the wet paint ”metallic” look the BC Metallic paper seems to have. The bare paper I handled this afternoon very much reminds me of the pearl white metallic I have seen on some high end aftermarket car finishes. I think the Metallic papers may have a dose of Rheoscopic Concentrate added to the ink receptor layer, anyway that is my guess. Maybe someone with more experience in these matters can set me straight.
Later Larry
Welcome to the discussion, Larry. Hadn't considered Rheoscopic Concentrate as a source of the look, but the similarity to the pearlescent shampoo market is understandable.