Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Brian Hirschfeld on March 27, 2012, 07:14:44 am
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So I saw on photo rumors a leak about some new system from Hasselblad either being a sub-medium format DSLR or a digital xpan coming up very soon. Either of these would be very exciting to be, but especially the Xpan, because I have an Xpan II and the biggest difficulty in using it is the awkward sized negatives, just like any panoramic format since the place I generally get my film done won't / can't scan the wider images. Any thoughts on this rumor?
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they push the Ferrari edition everytime the F1 season starts. I can see further collaborations with other luxury brands and 'personalities' happening soon to reinforce brand awareness.
as for product development i guess that depends on what the sensor manufacturers decide to do with their R&D budget.
you get a free copy of lightroom with every purchase now, which is nice.
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I hope its something exciting and different personally.
I was just in Hong Kong, and they were selling the Hasselblad Ferrari H4D-60 at the little electronics store in the airport, crazy.
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They working for rebranding Fuji X Pro ...
At heart, I want this to be a xpan or something completely new, something groundbreaking.
Time will show ...
I keep my fingers crossed
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Did I call it or what ;D
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=63230.msg510589#msg510589
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I mean the X-Pro 1 which I was able to actually touch when I was in Hong Kong is very much modeled after the Design of the Xpan which was also used for that Horseman 3D which use the same body. If it has a wide sensor that would be pretty cool.
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A digital XPan could use a scanning sensor rather than needing a large custom panoramic array-style sensor, and would avoid the need for a Bayer CFA and demosaicing. A 24mm high linear sensor matching the format of XPan lenses could be relatively inexpensive, by Hasselblad digital camera standards.
The closest off-the-shelf sensor I can see for the job is this one, 28mm high instead of 24mm:
http://www.kodak.com/ek/uploadedFiles/Content/Small_Business/Images_Sensor_Solutions/Datasheets(pdfs)/KLI-2104ProductSummary.pdf
Great dynamic range of 80dB chroma, 75dB in luma, and the nice idea of making five measurements at each of 2048 locations: red, green, blue, and two luminosity. That is, luminosity is sampled at 4096 locations along each line, and each of R, G and B is sampled at 2048 locations.
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Thats hot, like a mini Seitz 617 right? who currently makes Hasselblad sensors?
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Kodak & Dalsa, depending on the product (that is if you mean 'who is making the sensors that go into Hasselblad products').
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Yup thats what I meant, it'll be interesting, how fast can a scanning sensor like that scan? Thinking about moving subjects etc. and Wouldn't this be an issue for longer exposures, or does it make multiple passes for longer exposures?
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Yup thats what I meant, it'll be interesting, how fast can a scanning sensor like that scan? Thinking about moving subjects etc.
Total exposure times are long (some seconds total?), but surprisingly, it is possible to do this hand-held and with some moving subjects, because even though the total exposure time is long, the exposure time at each vertical line is still as brief as the ISO speed/exposure index suggests, so motion blur is no worse than with a normal system. It is like a slow-motion version of what happens at very high shutter speeds with a focal plane shutter, where you might get 1/8000s exposure at each point of the image, but 1/250s total time for the shutter to move across the image. In both cases, subject or camera motion can distort the image a bit, like making cars lean over, but without blurring it.
I believe that there is even a larger format scanning camera which advertises the ability to use it hand-held, and with photos of action like surfing.
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I believe that there is even a larger format scanning camera which advertises the ability to use it hand-held, and with photos of action like surfing.
I'd be interested to see more information about that
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I'd be interested to see more information about that
I must have been thinking of the Seitz 617 that someone else already mentioned above --- a $40,000+ camera, using a linear sensor that was custom designed and made for Seitz by Dalsa, to allow relatively speedy one second exposure times. The Kodak linear sensors I linked to might be far slower.
Some samples, including one with moving water:
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d925/f1000.cfm
Given the overwhelming trend towards active pixel CMOS technology, which is now clearly better than CCDs (at equal pixel size) in every important respect and in some respects better by a huge margin, and given also the apparent inability of medium format cameras makers (or anyone else) to justify the high transition costs of adapting modern CMOS sensor technology to cameras in formats larger than 36x24mm, companies like Hasselblad and Phase One might _need_ to start pursuing new technologies and niches like scanning backs, for the advantages of very high resolution and dynamic range when working with stationary or slow moving subjects. This cannot do everything that current MF backs do, but would work in any situation where the multi-shot approach works, and in some cases where the latter does not.
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Kodak & Dalsa, depending on the product (that is if you mean 'who is making the sensors that go into Hasselblad products').
Just as a point of minor correction, Kodak sold their Image Sensor Solutions division to a private equity firm and should now be probably referred to as True Sense Imaging (http://www.truesenseimaging.com/) or "TSI (formerly Kodak)" for least confusion. Or is that more confusing?
The H4D-60 is the only current Hasselblad product which uses a Dalsa sensor.
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The H4D-60 is the only current Hasselblad product which uses a Dalsa sensor.
What are the P1's? whats mine?
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As a rule of thumb the older Phase One backs use TSI (formerly Kodak) sensors and the newer Phase One backs use Dalsa sensors. There are some exceptions to that rule for some products introduced more than a decade ago.
Phase One Backs that use sensors from TSI (formerly Kodak)
H20, H25, P20, P21, P25, P30, P45, P20+, P21+, P25+, P30+, P45+
Phase One Backs that use sensors from Dalsa
P40+, P65+, IQ140, IQ160, IQ180
It would be impolite for me to comment more on a thread started regarding Hasselblad development (it would be hijacking the thread). If you're interested in more about the pros and cons of each kind of sensor or more history you're welcome to stop by the office or start a new thread.
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Just to add to Dougs post the original Lightphase,H5 & H10 used a Phillips sensor which then became Dalsa.
Lance
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For even more sensor minutia, Hasselblad (technically, pre-Hasselblad) also formerly utilized a Phillips sensor, via the Imacon Flexframe 3020 (formerly Carnival 3020).
Steve Hendrix
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For even more sensor minutia, Hasselblad (technically, pre-Hasselblad) also formerly utilized a Phillips sensor, via the Imacon Flexframe 3020 (formerly Carnival 3020).
Yes, that was the proto-Hasselblad using a sensor from the proto-Dalsa, since Dalsa later bought that sensor division of Phillips (and still has some of its sensor research division in the Netherlands even if some work moved to Canada.)
So while we are being correct about names, not only is it
"Truesense Imaging (formerly Kodak Imaging)",
but also a lot pf MF sensors come from
"Teledyne-Dalsa (formerly Dalsa, and even more formerly part of Phillips)".
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So I saw on photo rumors a leak about some new system from Hasselblad either being a sub-medium format DSLR or a digital xpan coming up very soon. Either of these would be very exciting to be, but especially the Xpan, because I have an Xpan II and the biggest difficulty in using it is the awkward sized negatives, just like any panoramic format since the place I generally get my film done won't / can't scan the wider images. Any thoughts on this rumor?
I hope they are investing and not thinking like "I am doom" lets sale as expensive as I can and then, die. In other words the I can't increase my market perspective. If Hasselblad improves the camera and the sensor (the dead of Kodak is problematic in that respect) and control prices they can gain a lot of market traction.
Everybody and their grandpas are buying DSLRs. The low price of the D800 and 5D III means that pros will not be able to differentiate by camera image quality, but by technique, resources and creativity. A fair priced medium format camera with modern Dynamic range and current medium format colors will be a way to add better camera to the creative /technique mix.
Medium format has an opportunity, but they need to invest now, or resources starvation will kick in.
Best regards,
James
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If Hasselblad improves the camera and the sensor (the dead of Kodak is problematic in that respect)
Kodak's problems are no longer relevant: its former sensor division was sold sometime before the bankruptcy, and is now operating under the name Truesense Imaging, a holding of Platinum Equity.
http://www.truesenseimaging.com/
The problem instead is that neither this operation nor that at Teledyne-Dalsa have given any hint of the ability to move beyond the now obsolescent 20th century CCD sensor technology in the sensors that they make for digital cameras. There may be room for optimism in the fact that Teledyne-Dalsa does make large CMOS sensors for other uses like X-rays (large, but low resolution, with 20-200 micron pixels) and machine vision (high frame rates and global shutters, but low resolution and low bit depth.) Kodak abandoned CMOS long before it sold its sensor division.
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/products/cmos.aspx
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I'd like to see a 503CWD FF with a new line of lenses and auto-focus
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I'd like to see a 503CWD FF with a new line of lenses and auto-focus
In your dreams . . .
John
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Step forward Sigma, with a new medium format camera using MF sized Foveon sensor. Now that would be a left field idea I'd like to see happen.
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Kodak's problems are no longer relevant: its former sensor division was sold sometime before the bankruptcy, and is now operating under the name Truesense Imaging, a holding of Platinum Equity.
http://www.truesenseimaging.com/
The problem instead is that neither this operation nor that at Teledyne-Dalsa have given any hint of the ability to move beyond the now obsolescent 20th century CCD sensor technology in the sensors that they make for digital cameras. There may be room for optimism in the fact that Teledyne-Dalsa does make large CMOS sensors for other uses like X-rays (large, but low resolution, with 20-200 micron pixels) and machine vision (high frame rates and global shutters, but low resolution and low bit depth.) Kodak abandoned CMOS long before it sold its sensor division.
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/sensors/products/cmos.aspx
Good point. Let see in what direction the current owners move the new company.
This seems a very good idea if achieving the yields is possible:
Step forward Sigma, with a new medium format camera using MF sized Foveon sensor. Now that would be a left field idea I'd like to see happen.
Now, I don't know if the Foveon sensor has the characteristics needed in terms of color, dynamic rage etc.
All the Sigma cameras that I looked for on DxO are in the preview stage.
If they do however, a 53.7mm x40.2mm sensor (like H4D-60/IQ160) will have 86+ mega pixels of direct color rendering.
I believe for Sigma, it could be less risky to sale the sensors, at least as a initial proposition.
Building a full Medium Format system could be risky and complex. The do have the same links to review sites (for winning the mindshare) that Pentax do, in the other hand.
In therms of branding, sigma is not sale as a premium brand. They have try in the last months with Nikon / Canon L prices for some of the lenses (like the 70-200 OS) but they have failed.
Building a sensor for a Leica S3 will be a second option. Leica guys will simply pay for the initial expertise and learning[1]. They will pay whatever is needed to getting the last gram of image quality on a Leica package.
Best regards,
James
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[1] the steppers don't go that large, they will need to learn to do multiple exposure, or binding or something to go large.
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I'd love to see the X-Pan revived as a dedicated panoramic camera, with a 24x72mm CMOS sensor and live view (start with two D800 sensors side-by-side, and go from there). It'd be a compact system and rival 617-format colour film for image quality, with the same 1:3 aspect ratio, too. 24mm, 30mm, 50mm and 100mm lenses to go with it, preferably with tilt and vertical shift for focal plane and perspective control (since landscape is the most obvious use for such a body). Hasselblad could do it; so could the Sony/Zeiss partnership.
It's unfortunate that panoramic formats have been neglected since the digital revolution. Previously, we had 612, 617, 624 and the X-Pan format to play with - all compact (for their film size) systems which were highly portable and eminently suitable for landscape photography. These days, however, we're stuck stitching images from 35mm cameras (with the inevitable problems with moving subjects or wind) or cropping from MF sensors, which often don't offer lenses wide enough for what we want to do (28mm on a 54mm-wide sensor really isn't all that wide). The price of high-performance 35mm CMOS sensors, however, has now fallen to a level where we can easily justify sticking two of them side-by-side and paying $8-10k for a dedicated panoramic camera.
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It is not a rumor anymore. Ventizz Capital wants Hasselblad to compete also outside MF. See the announcement of their CEO.
"We are proud to have such an iconic brand in our portfolio and are convinced that with solid financial support and a suitable growth strategy, Ventizz can further strengthen Hasselblad's position as the first-class producer of medium-format digital camera systems. Furthermore, we plan to develop Hasselblad cameras to appeal to a wider circle of ambitious photographers," said Helmut Vorndran, managing partner and CEO of Ventizz Capital Partners.
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Forgot to copy the most important sentence for our wallet.
Hasselblad CEO Larry Hansen said his company is looking forward to exploring "brand new markets" -- including, we hope, the "sub-$10,000" one.
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i fully expect an 'olympic edition' with gold. silver, bronze accents and a small commemorative medal with each limited edition camera body.
there is a rumour going round that the Ferrari editions languishing on the dealers shelves are going to be re-badged with a high end japanese car brand logo and Fuji branding. this is just a rumour though.
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If they like this in Asia, why not, if it brings an extra buck?
But, it is not what they are (really) working on , i.e. to develop a new camera system that expands their customer base.
On top of it, I heard they are massively hiring .....
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"We are proud to have such an iconic brand in our portfolio and are convinced that with solid financial support and a suitable growth strategy, Ventizz can further strengthen Hasselblad's position as the first-class producer of medium-format digital camera systems. Furthermore, we plan to develop Hasselblad cameras to appeal to a wider circle of ambitious photographers," said Helmut Vorndran, managing partner and CEO of Ventizz Capital Partners.
Can you tell us the source for this and other quotes in these posts?
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http://www.ventizz.de/en/pm110630.php (http://www.ventizz.de/en/pm110630.php)
Thanks: so, quotes from June 2011 when Ventizz Capital Fund acquired Hasselblad.
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I guess they are kind of busy being worried after seeing the price tag of the Nikon D800 with its 36.3-megapixel FX-format...
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Hasselblad USA and Bron Imaging Group announce agreement to merge U.S. operations:
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1974277/2012-04-24_pr_hasselelbadbron_us_en.pdf
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Hasselblad USA and Bron Imaging Group announce agreement to merge U.S. operations:
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1974277/2012-04-24_pr_hasselelbadbron_us_en.pdf
Nice message. But we would prefer to know that they are working on new products ... Software, lenses, new system...
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Nice message. But we would prefer to know that they are working on new products ... Software, lenses, new system...
Press release: "The merger will only impact the two American organizations of Bron Imaging Group U.S."
They don't do any development in the U.S.. They're just combining operations here to try and stay in business.
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Press release: "The merger will only impact the two American organizations of Bron Imaging Group U.S."
They don't do any development in the U.S.. They're just combining operations here to try and stay in business.
I am not sure about the las bit. It appears to imply that they are close to be broken. It could be, but I don't believe it's the only interpretation. They already were working as partners on other zones.
It could be that the partnership worked very well, It could be an effort to combine marketing campaigns, increase support coverture an channels and cut marketing costs, They could be testing the waters for fusion it could be the big universal pancake of the space.
In other words, I believe we don't have the information to decide.
For me the development is interesting. But I don't see it as a move that will change the market in a significant way.
Best regards,
James
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Just to follow up on the "to try and stay in business" quote. This is absolutely not the case.
The US distribution merger is not without a successful precedent. The distribution of both products has been successfully demonstrated in the UK. The combining of resources will help us to develop a greater outreach into the market. What this means to the end user is better customer support and better sales support.
This is NOT a merger of Hasselblad and Bron Elektronic in Europe. This is a merger of 2 distribution companies in the US only.
Dave McRitchie
Bron Imaging Group
dave@bronimaging.com
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Nice message. But we would prefer to know that they are working on new products ... Software, lenses, new system...
I assume you mean you would prefer to know what new products they are working on, rather than that they are working on new products.
Steve Hendrix
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Press release: "The merger will only impact the two American organizations of Bron Imaging Group U.S."
They don't do any development in the U.S.. They're just combining operations here to try and stay in business.
Not speaking for Hasselblad (others can do that), but among the products Bron Imaging distributes into the US are Sunbounce and Broncolor Lighting, both of which produce industry leading products, are doing extremely well, and have excellent futures ahead of them. The present isn't so bad either.
Steve Hendrix
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Dave any truth to the special edition "Bentley" Broncolor Packs coming out now?
Just kidding.
It's actually a good move in my opinion since you guys have already been working together on the marketing end with your successful "Shoot" events and your product lines are complimentary.
Best of luck.
Its a win for both companies and their customers.
Lance
Just to follow up on the "to try and stay in business" quote. This is absolutely not the case.
The US distribution merger is not without a successful precedent. The distribution of both products has been successfully demonstrated in the UK. The combining of resources will help us to develop a greater outreach into the market. What this means to the end user is better customer support and better sales support.
This is NOT a merger of Hasselblad and Bron Elektronic in Europe. This is a merger of 2 distribution companies in the US only.
Dave McRitchie
Bron Imaging Group
dave@bronimaging.com
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I assume you mean you would prefer to know what new products they are working on, rather than that they are working on new products.
Steve Hendrix
I know them ;) I am not sure if they are working ...
Joke
It would be nice to know :) Photokina is around a corner. So we will see ;)
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I think you mean they are hard at work on new models who will also be seen at Photokina.
It's late. Sorry.
Edmund
I know them ;) I am not sure if they are working ...
Joke
It would be nice to know :) Photokina is around a corner. So we will see ;)
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I think you mean they are hard at work on new models who will also be seen at Photokina.
It's late. Sorry.
Edmund
I know what you mean. I also know the process of dev a product.
In my heart, I believe that someone has taken the right decision several months/years ago. I do not want to disappoint again. The new paint will not convince me ;)
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I know what you mean. I also know the process of dev a product.
In my heart, I believe that someone has taken the right decision several months/years ago. I do not want to disappoint again. The new paint will not convince me ;)
At PK, next to a Ferrari red thing on the Hasselblad stand was a german model and a salesman. The model came with the usual glass of french bubbly, I think I remember.
In German, I told the salesman the H looked interesting, but expensive.
The model tossed her mane some, and opined down to me that "in every field could be found elite products".
I expect come Photokina , Hassy will bring in some more of these elitist models, wind machines for their hair, and cameras with prancing horses for us to gawk at.
Edmund
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did they have one of those red ropes with gold ends that they remove to gain entry to the garden of earthly delights once they have checked the size of your wristwatch and the quality of your loafers?