Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Frank Doorhof on March 17, 2012, 04:51:09 am
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I will be teaching two workshops in Boston on the 30th and 31th (March).
Because we will be traveling around a lot, starting out teaching at PSW DC, than B&H in NY and finally Boston I'm planning on leaving my Medium Format camera at home.
Of course for the workshops in Boston it would be nice to be able to shoot with the MF, but it's the only time I will be using it so I wonder if someone can hook me up with a Phase One/Leaf system for those two days.
Greetings,
Frank
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For free?
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Hassy isn't good enough? :)
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@Darr,
I think the promotion they will get from it, will be more than a rent price.
I'm already promoting the system and normally travel with it, but with this trip the risk is a bit too much.
I can also do the workshops with a Canon system (no problem at all), but I think it's always a great opportunity to show your gear in a high-end workshop and show first hand what it can do.
We do this worldwide with Elinchrom (never paid for a rent/loan system) but the dealer always got more than he expected :)
It's a win-win situation.
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Editor/art buyer: Give us your stuff for nothing because of the exposure you will get.
Artist: But I have expenses.
Editor/art buyer: You need to have a greater vision and we don't like working with those motivated by money.
Artist: I guess I can work as a waiter.
Editor/Art Buyer: That's the spirit, But I have to go. I need to pay my printer and then cash my pay check at the bank.
(But I am sure Frank is not making money from his workshops, so I guess that it is all right.)
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I'm already promoting the system and normally travel with it, but with this trip the risk is a bit too much.
But why do you expect someone else to take the risk for you?
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Let's put it this way, a lot of companies are very happy when I use their gear. For the simple reason that they can sell their gear, as I said before it's a win win situation. Often with workshops I'm also having the guys from the gear in the group so they can help out students with specific questions and let them try out gear, we recently did a larger workshop with a Medium format reseller who brought 5-6 bodies with which the students were allowed to shoot (on their own card).
I think it's more :
Artist : can I please hang my work here because I can sell it.
Gallery : but of course you can hang your work here because we get a nice commission when we sell it.
Also do realize that many, many workshops are sponsored, this varies from door prices to gear.
Elinchrom makes sure that I get my gear in most countries, I promote Elinchrom.
Companies like NIK, OnOne, Expoimaging, Tethertools etc. give doorprices or small prices for raffles on the bigger workshops and they are certainly not doing it for free :D
When I promoted Expoimaging on the recent Professional Imaging one hour after the show there was no flash bender available anymore on the expo floor :D
As mentioned before it's a win-win situations for both parties. And they go really nice together.
Do remember however I'm not a "starting" workshop teacher :-)
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In answer to the risk.
I have to travel from the Netherlands to Washington DC where I teach at PSW (Canon), then we drive to New York for a seminar at B&H (no camera needed) and then we drive to Boston for two day workshops which I can teach with a Canon (no problem at all) however personally I love to use the MF system.
If no one wants to help out, no problem I'm shooting the workshop with a Canon DSLR, if someone wants to help out (and it's already in motion) than we can work together with that company and promote their products.
For local companies there is no risk, but carrying two camera systems in a plane and through several cities in this tour is a risk and because I only shoot in Boston with it I'm looking for a "partner".
Again, if you don't get it, don't worry the whole workshop market is a bit "weird" but companies are more than happy when you promote them in the level I'm teaching.
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In answer to the risk.
I have to travel from the Netherlands to Washington DC where I teach at PSW (Canon), then we drive to New York for a seminar at B&H (no camera needed) and then we drive to Boston for two day workshops which I can teach with a Canon (no problem at all) however personally I love to use the MF system.
If no one wants to help out, no problem I'm shooting the workshop with a Canon DSLR, if someone wants to help out (and it's already in motion) than we can work together with that company and promote their products.
For local companies there is no risk, but carrying two camera systems in a plane and through several cities in this tour is a risk and because I only shoot in Boston with it I'm looking for a "partner".
Again, if you don't get it, don't worry the whole workshop market is a bit "weird" but companies are more than happy when you promote them in the level I'm teaching.
Frank,
I understand the risk, but Boston ain't like going to Iraq and that's why insurance exists.
We just arrived in Munich and I have 4 Camera cases I check. I scarlet case, I RED 1 case, I canon case, I Sony case, Plus 2 cases of lightpanels, grip cases, stand cases, lens case, dit station, tripod caes, steadicam case, . . . you get the idea.
I can and really do understand the problems with this and I also understand your promoting equipment, but can't you get Leaf or Phase to cough up a system for a few days? They got dealers everywhere.
Wish you the best.
IMO
BC
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I can and really do understand the problems with this and I also understand your promoting equipment, but can't you get Leaf or Phase to cough up a system for a few days? They got dealers everywhere.
Yes I am wondering why your usual partners can not loan stuff in Boston.
Also, if someone here were to volunteer, what does the loaner get out of handing you $20K worth of gear for a couple days? What exactly would the loaner have to promote there? (I guess I do not understand your proposition, and how it would benefit anyone other than yourself...?)
-mr purdy
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@BC
We don't travel with a team, most of the time it's just me and my wife, plus normally I'm using the combination on more occasions, now we travel for 14 days only "needing" the kit two days that's why I asked. :)
We are insured of course by the way, luckily never needed it for stolen gear, but that does mean in a lot of cases we are constantly carrying around the two systems, and this trip that's a real burden because we move around a lot, that's why I mentioned the "risk".
I really do wonder whats wrong with people, it's just a question, I think hardly any reason to come tumbling down like this ?
Of course I also asked leaf/phase and in the meantime they are helping out, but we decided this rather last minute so I thought I could also ask here also just in case (thought we were all professionals), something I now regret. I feel like defending myself for something I really don't need to. If you think it's a weird question, than just don't bother with it. If the "loaner" would be private person he/she would have gotten a free workshop of course. I'm not the kind of person to just "take" there are plenty of those but not me. There's always something in return that goes without saying.
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Again, if you don't get it, don't worry the whole workshop market is a bit "weird" but companies are more than happy when you promote them in the level I'm teaching.
And not for nothing, but Frank is a good shooter and does good workshops. I've seen him speak at Photoshop World. And yes, the workshop market IS weird...(I know, I do them). In the situation Franks is in, he's doing a variety of workshops and lectures in multiple locations. If this was a commercial shoot for a paying client, I have no doubt he what either ship what he needs or rent it. But the expenses of producing a workshop while on a multi city workshop schedule is different. I think what he was really asking is for some leads of dealers in Boston that he could approach for assistance.
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Frank, it never hurts to ask. I do know a Blad dealer up there, but not PhaseOne.
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Of course I also asked leaf/phase and in the meantime they are helping out, but we decided this rather last minute so I thought I could also ask here just in case, something I now regret. I feel like defending myself for something I really don't need to.
Frank, welcome to LuLa the home of the pit-bulls...once they get on to something, they peel the flesh right off your bone (and I'm as guilty as anybody :~)
You speak/write English really well...but sometimes your phraseology is a bit Euro...that can lead to miscommunications (sometimes rather humorous, sometimes not).
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Frank, I do not blame you for asking, I might have done the same. However I would have offered something in exchange for the usage, instead of asking for a "loan," especially when you are charging a fee for the workshops I presume.
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As I find out indeed.
There was in no way any "bad intentions" behind this, I was indeed reaching out for dealer leads, or maybe a private person, in my opinion just a normal question spiraling out of control and leaving me wondering "what the heck just happened"
I did not mean the remark about the level of teaching in any disrespect or "arrogant" by the way, it's simply a fact that loaning gear when teaching workshops like we do, is not that weird and is done a lot, and I thought that was known by the people occupying the MF area..... Again I never wanted to sound "weird" maybe it is a translation thing.... What was it "lost in translation" ;)
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@BC
We don't travel with a team, most of the time it's just me and my wife,..........snip.
I'm not knocking Frank or personalize it, because though I don't know him, he seems like a good guy.
Let's call him Mr. X so that way there are no names involved.
Given that clarity, we do have a team, but on this gig everyone is in europe, so all the equipment came with my producer (wife) and me. We pulled every string we know to keep the baggage overage down to the thousand dollar range. We've had this gig in pre production for two months, though didn't get a green light until two days ago.
Also we work from a bottom line, so every dollar spent impacts our net, so I really do understand.
I guess my point is Mr. X does a lot of promo for a lot of companies. I would think those companies would be easy to get to toss over a few cameras for demo.
Now I'm not Mr. X, but I'd rather bite the bullet and bring my own cameras, that way I know everything will go smooth.
IMO
BC
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@ron,
As mentioned before, indeed a private person would get a free workshop that goes without saying.
@bc,
When I need as in "need" the camera it travels with me, I've done so on many occasions, however in this case I can teach exactly the same workshop with a DSLR as with a MF system. Normally because I teach multiple workshops in one location it makes sense to bring my own MF camera, it gets used a lot plus we use it in our free time, this time however we don't have any free time between the workshops, which in most cases are seminars without camera, or expo floor demos which are easier with the DSLR (you know how heavy it is to carry around camera gear, and when running from one booth to the other and from one theater to the other is much easier with just one bag ;))
So in fact our whole list with the insurance company was already filled (we leave on monday) and last minute I did got the idea to maybe try to get a "load" system. And did not just want to ask phase or leaf and thought I would also share it here.
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I'm not knocking Frank or personalize it, because though I don't know him, he seems like a good guy.
Yep...and a good teacher (if you can get past his continental English). Check out his website (http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/).
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Oh please ............ Continental English
It's real Dutch English ;) lol that's much worse/better/funnier.
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When I need as in "need" the camera it travels with me, I've done so on many occasions, however in this case I can teach exactly the same workshop with a DSLR as with a MF system.
Then perhaps you should just use a DLSR instead of schlepping for a MF system here.
Just sayn'
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Then perhaps you should just use a DLSR instead of schlepping for a MF system here.
Which is what Frank already said...the whole point of the post was to find somebody who might be able to provide a MFDB so he didn't have to pack that kit (since he already decided not to pack it). The thought was to be able to demo MFDBs if you could...if he can't he said the the workshop will be fine using DSLRs.
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Which is what Frank already said...the whole point of the post was to find somebody who might be able to provide a MFDB so he didn't have to pack that kit (since he already decided not to pack it). The thought was to be able to demo MFDBs if you could...if he can't he said the the workshop will be fine using DSLRs.
BS, he wants a freebee. Otherwise he would have contacted dealers/venders directly. Or perhaps he already has and now here he is. "Can someone loan a MF system to me because I am too lazy to pack one".... I found his request and tone a little offensive. Just my opinion...
Anyone familiar with this community would understand that this type of request would not be warmly welcomed, especially without some form of compensation other than "I am not a workshop newbie" and whatever benefits come with that.
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BS, he wants a freebee. Otherwise he would have contacted dealers/venders directly.
He's from the Netherlands...he's not from the US. He knows nobody from Boston. What part of him being "from away" don't you understand? I'm not sure there's a Yellow Pages to access from the Netherlands.
Jeeesh, it's already hard enough for Europeans to come to the US these days. Do you read all posts from a thread before posting? He's already sorry he posted here (I bet that won't happen again soon, thanks for driving a nice guy away).
Given your rather low post count, I'm not sure your opinion is really well informed. Note Frank has over 1400 posts. He's been around a bit. He just doesn't speak American English all that well. Cut him a friggin' break will ya?
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He's from the Netherlands...he's not from the US. He knows nobody from Boston. What part of him being "from away" don't you understand? I'm not sure there's a Yellow Pages to access from the Netherlands.
Jeeesh, it's already hard enough for Europeans to come to the US these days. Do you read all posts from a thread before posting? He's already sorry he posted here (I bet that won't happen again soon, thanks for driving a nice guy away).
Given your rather low post count, I'm not sure your opinion is really well informed. Note Frank has over 1400 posts. He's been around a bit. He just doesn't speak American English all that well. Cut him a friggin' break will ya?
Cut him a break? He has a MF system. Put it in your @$# bag. Don't ask for mine.
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Cut him a break? He has a MF system. Put it in your @$# bag. Don't ask for mine.
Again, I guess you didn't read the whole thread, huh? Since he's not coming to SF, I guess you don't have to worry about loaning him your system. So, why are you bothering to post? Just wanna look tough? BTW I looked you up...no comment on your work, but you obviously aren't a commercial shooter huh? Give a lot of workshops? I didn't think so...
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Again, I guess you didn't read the whole thread, huh? Since he's not coming to SF, I guess you don't have to worry about loaning him your system. So, why are you bothering to post? Just wanna look tough? BTW I looked you up...no comment on your work, but you obviously aren't a commercial shooter huh? Give a lot of workshops? I didn't think so...
Wow! I would have expected more from you. A personal attack. I thought better of you....
Some guy comes here wanting to have equipment for nothing, with an attitude of "i deserve". What did he expect? What did you expect?
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Wow! I would have expected more from you. A personal attack. I thought better of you....
Tit for tat bud...
Don't you know me by now? Spend any time on LuLa? (not a lot based on post count, not an active member I would say).
Did you not read the thread?
Did you not understand that Frank's from the Netherlands and doesn't know people here?
Did you not read that perhaps Frank's terminology left a bit left to be desired (when dealing with "Ugly Americans")?
You still piling on this thread is foolish...deal is over, Frank has learned that Americans aren't very friendly. He won't make that mistake again. Move along, these are not the droids you were looking for (which basically means quit...or else I can get even more aggressive).
Get it now?
I'm happy to keep playing, you?
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(which basically means quit...or else I can get even more aggressive).
Get it now?
I'm happy to keep playing, you?
Nice! Sort of playground bully wouldnt you say?
Your friend asked to borrow some seriously expensive equipment in a very flippant attitude. And your surprised at the response?
Although I am more surprised with your response. The rather shallow insults. I thought to respond in kind but honestly....
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Come on guys, please........ Be civilized.
Act like adults.
It's not worth getting such a "fight" over it.
Again in "my world" it's rather normal that we loan/get gear to test/try/demo with. If it would be from a privat person he/she would have gotten a free workshop, if it's a dealer he/she would have gotten promotion in exchange as one of the sponsors of the workshops. So in my opinion it's a normal (at least in my world) win-win situation.
And please could we now just talk about the things that do matter.
I've been contacted by both leaf and a dealer at the moment so I think everything will work out.
Maybe I did choose the wrong words, if so sorry but even then after the first explanation I thought it would be clear ??
The only reason I posted here because it was a last minute decission if I knew it like a month ago I would have just asked leaf and knew for sure a kit was waiting for me at the location. And again if it doesn't work out I will do the workshop with a DSLR, for me personally and the students it doesn't make a difference. I don't have deliver huge files, just some images for the models and maybe some for my online portfolio.
And now I think I defended myself enough.
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You speak/write English really well...but sometimes your phraseology is a bit Euro...that can lead to miscommunications (sometimes rather humorous, sometimes not).
English was invented in Europe a long time ago it's many hundreds of years older than some countries that have appropriated the language.
Frank's English sounds fine to me but then i'm a native English speaker.
::)
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Mr. X.,
Remember I'm not personalizing this.
Calumet in Cambridge rents Phase One and Hasselblad.
http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/services/rental.cfm
I think in the world of representing equipment, there is more validity in what you buy yourself than if you get a deal. Once again, no judgement call here.
IMO
BC
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I also pay for 90% of My gear ;)
I'm not someone to take, take. Think that's wrong.
I'm sponsored by Lowepro for example and could get whatever I wanted. I just asked one bag I needed. I know some others would have taken a lot more ;)
I'm in it for the long haul and would much better have that they help me out in situations like this. I own what I need and I don't want more that I will not need just because its free.
But hey that's me.
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Geez,
If anyone from the US (like BC) would come over here (or from another foreign place), to do a shoot or workshop. I would be happy to loan him something provided I could attend, help out and learn something from them too. Sure, it has to fit into my schedule, etc.. etc.. etc..
I would also probably enjoy meeting someone whose work I like...
But that is just me, compensation comes in many forms. I have a bit of a weird policy where I ask more money for things I enjoy less this goes the other way too. I ask less money for things I enjoy more.
There are tons of people that have helped me out in the past, I have also tried to help out others when I could. When I can I will, when I cannot, pity next time better. I don't see the problem. Maybe if I knew someone like Mr. X would travel in a G6 and Bentley....
Perhaps my message is more, if you can help out and are willing to do so just do it. If you cannot or do not want to, why would you give someone else such a hard time? Just continue on your daily routine.
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Geez,
If anyone from the US (like BC) would come over here (or from another foreign place), to do a shoot or workshop. I would be happy to loan him something provided I could attend, help out and learn something from them too. Sure, it has to fit into my schedule, etc.. etc.. etc..
Frank never offered a free workshop to an individual; he said "free promotion for the gear."
I worked hard to get my $30,000 gear why should I offer it free-to-use to someone that is making money using it? Unfriendly American? That is an insult. My dealer(s) never gave me anything for free, heck one of them recently kept my $4,000 for a workshop I had to cancel 5 days in advance because of a family emergency. What do I do? Just never give them another dime. Business is business. Through this thread it is clear to see the forum is protecting their interest in possible profits, promotions, etc. of workshop promoters, dealers, etc.
I will remember this.
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Did I say Frank offered a free workshop? Did I say unfriendly Americans? You can try to filter whatever you like in what I write but read it carefully and you see it is not there.
Nobody is forcing anyone to anything for free, I am merely saying that there is no need to react this offensive. You can help out or not, you can communicate about what you expect in return too.
The hostile attitude is pretty uncalled for.
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Don't think everyone is the same....
I recently refunded a last minute cancellation because the student needed the money for something he could not foresee when he booked, for me it's a bad thing because I keep the pricing of the workshops really low, but on the other hand I thought it must be harder for him so I refunded his money.
I'm actually really in shock by all the responses, I saw ll as one of the places on the net were professionals were hanging and sharing their passion and tips/tricks.
I mentioned many times (as soon as I saw I was not clear enough) that if an individual would offer a loan set he/she would of course be my guest for the workshop (for me that goes without saying) however my initial question was more aimed towards a dealer who was willing to work with me on the workshop as sponsor/endorser etc.
It's a shame that nowadays people always try to find the bad in people before looking at the good. I share my knowledge every day for free via my blog, I keep the pricing of the workshops as low as possible plus when people mail me I respond personally. I had expected a bit more civil responses.... Well I guess also ll is going the way most forums go.... Let's start a fight and burn someone down to the ground.
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Did I say Frank offered a free workshop? Did I say unfriendly Americans? You can try to filter whatever you like in what I write but read it carefully and you see it is not there.
Nobody is forcing anyone to anything for free, I am merely saying that there is no need to react this offensive. You can help out or not, you can communicate about what you expect in return too.
The hostile attitude is pretty uncalled for.
I did not say you said "unfriendly American;" it was stated within the thread. I am sorry if I offended you as that was not my intention.
If you got that kind of money to lend MFD gear out, more power to you. I recently got burned by a dealer and it was because I trusted them and thought they would do the right thing, but they put profit above humanity. Now days for me it will be strictly business and I will not extend my finances openly to anyone in photography-business arenas. I personally would like to see dealers disappear and buy directly from the manufacturer.
Frank, I hope you are able to work out a deal and get the MFD gear you are hoping for. I know when I traveled to Iceland two years ago it was a lot of gear in Pelican cases for me to pay to have shipped over, but that is what it took to shoot the way I wanted to.
BTW, I have family that are native Norwegians and their English is better than some Americans. :D Go figure!
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San Francisco, California has the highest per capita rate of homelessness of any city in the United States. I look you up as well..LOL...
OH BOY!
FRANK, I AM IN BROCKTON ( CITY OF CHAMPIONS) I HAVE HASSELBLAD with almost all the lenses if I we can get together my camera its all yours for the time u are teaching.
I can't go to take the class or whatever its, but u can use mine. FREE.
I hope that HASSELBLAD work for you, and we can meet.
people here getting mad, if they do not get free whatever they ask, They take welfare from my taxes, I am giving free already so ignore them., they have right but no one else.
Look at brendan, I didn't sale a lens for the price his want in then he got mad, and I am sure he do not have hassy at all..I look him up as well.OH BOY Its a look up..U look at me i look at you.
he maybe need someone to help him to cross the street.
Life its just BEAUTIFUL.
Let me know, my cell its in my website.(from CA)
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Thx so much for the offer. At the moment leaf/phase is on the case so it will work out. However if you feel like meeting up and chat just let me know. Love the fact you're offering something.
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Frank,
Great you have something, that is just perfect, if in the future u need it, and I can help, let me know and I will.
I do not know if I can meet you, but send me a text or email, in let me know when u in town, if i can I will.
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Let's put this back in to context...
Here is Frank's original post/request.
I will be teaching two workshops in Boston on the 30th and 31th (March).
Because we will be traveling around a lot, starting out teaching at PSW DC, than B&H in NY and finally Boston I'm planning on leaving my Medium Format camera at home.
Of course for the workshops in Boston it would be nice to be able to shoot with the MF, but it's the only time I will be using it so I wonder if someone can hook me up with a Phase One/Leaf system for those two days.
Greetings,
Frank
Here is my admittedly American translation.
"Hi guys. My name is Frank. I am going to be putting on a few workshops (insert shameless pugs). I have MF equipement but for reasons unexplained, I don't want to bring mine soooo I was hoping to use yours:)"
Now all I know about Frank is this one post and my reaction is WTF, he's got to be kidding. Seems a reasonable reaction to me, but of course it is mine:)
To add insult to injury, Frank and others are now painting me as some villain. "Woe is me, I have been attacked"
Nice!!!
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I'm just wondering why the offense. Nothing more.
Maybe it would have been a good idea to first check me out before posting ?
I know I do. On the other hand I would never respond this way ;)
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Alan,
What is wrong to ask for a favor? in if you doing the favor, why you care if the X person make a million or not or have the same as u do or not?
If you going to do the favorjust say so, or send a private message, in say U can,in do NOT expect anything back, maybe a thank you in life continues on.
If you are NOT going to do the favor, move on, lets the one will do it, posted and life still nice. Why go after the person, the asking?
If, JEFF said he is good guy he must be..Wow I just give credit to Jeff. If you going to look all the people the posting here in go after then, U have problem/s
I will advice you to, to find someone in the street in fight.
if no one want to fight,go to the GOLDEN STATE BRIDGE, just walk around there, you will see someone jump, gone for ever,maybe they tired of this life. Do NOT jump life is so beautiful! but if you jump, you going to leave the cash you have to your wife, in she will get another man in spend with him.
wow, U lose it all, life and then the cash.
So relax, lets other post in here in ask for a favor, if anyone want to do it, lets them do it. WHY U SO MAD? No one after you other then your own self, love your self more then anyone else, you will feel good about it.
God Bless you, and move one..He found someone the will give the camera, in if you read, I was ready to do it, for FREE. I LOVE U TOO..I am full of love
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Maybe it would have been a good idea to first check me out before posting ?
Why do you think that would have made a difference?
An obnoxious Andreas Gursky and an obnoxious Andreas Gursky.
It seems your desires have been fulfilled, so perhaps we can move on...
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If you would've checked me out you Probably understood me a bit more and knew I don't want/need freebies ;)
And indeed let's move on, not worth all the trouble.
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Why do you think that would have made a difference?
Yes, it /should/ have made a difference. Having seen Frank around here for a few years, I would expect him to be fair in negotiation for things he might want or need. I did not read his posting the way you did. Sorry if your first impression of Frank was inaccurate, but it seems that's a matter for you to reflect on for yourself.
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Frank,
I understand the risk, but Boston ain't like going to Iraq and that's why insurance exists.
I agree, and besides, don't you have your gear insured? mine is insured so that basically if I do anything to it, including accidental it is covered. I have traveled from NYC -> W. DC -> Oregon and NYC -> DC -> Costa Rica -> Hawaii carrying my H3Dii-39ms and a H4D-50 (rented) and a H2D + PhaseOne P65+ H mount (rented) with 5-6 lenses, thats a Maserati in a suit case, and I never worried, theres nothing out there that can truly kill your gear if you are careful.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianhirschfeldphotography/6811707045/in/photostream ~ here I was standing in the ocean with the waves with a Gitzo Tripod, with a P65+ and Hasselblad 300mm HC lens
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianhirschfeldphotography/6802397205/in/photostream ~ Here was a H4D-50 with a 50mm lens on a tripod, which had to be handed down to me because, it was on a basically vertical slope of the canyon.
Risks make the pictures.
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I agree, and besides, don't you have your gear insured?
Read the thread...he wasn't on a "shoot" he was ad-libbing a workshop in Boston where he knew nobody and wanted to be "able" to add MFDB to the workshop. Frank has already stated he could do the workshop with the equipment he planned on bringing....DSLR. His thought (now prolly regretting it) was to add to the workshop by demoing MFDB as an extra...
People seriously got way bent out of shape here and should look themselves pretty hard in the mirror. What many "thought" he was asking for was NOT what he was asking for. Which led to a miscommunication (on Frank but still...) and things got blown way out of realistic proportion, as Americans are prone to do. (which my European friends tell me is the downside of America).
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I'm just wondering why the offense. Nothing more.
Frank, I think the issue is that you did not say ANYTHING about offering the person loaning the $30,000 device a "free" workshop until sometime after people were offended. Your original post said nothing about an equipment loan in exchange for participation in the workshop. I think that is 90% of the problem.
Instead of just admitting that it was a bold proposition, you (and Schewe) seem to be implying that everyone should have known that a free workshop was offered in trade, when it was not. Not until people were offended anyway...
I understand there is somewhat of a language barrier, but I believe that if you had intended to offer something in exchange (such as a workshop) you would have done so in the original post. Your english seems pretty good to me ;-)
We are all running business here, and it is odd for one business person to ask another for a free $30,000 loan...
I can not think of a single forum anywhere where someone asking to borrow $30,000 worth of stuff so they could make money off of it would not be LOLed off of the internet.
Personally, I would loan someone on these forums something in exchange for a workshop. That sounds like fun to me. I have run workshops in NY and met people from the forums, and it was very fun.
Now, back to my original premise: I believe if you had originally offered something in exchange, these business-minded chaps at LL would have responded in kind.
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Hummm so first attack and than ask ???
Right.
Everything is arranged at the moment via a dealer (as was my original intention) so I guess some people did understand the question.
It will in fact be the last time I ever ask something here.
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Hummm so first attack and than ask ???
Right.
Frank, you should take responsibility for being unclear in your original post. Also you could respond to some of the specifics in my previous post instead of pretending everyone is being mean to you.
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Sure now I am wrong ?
Weird world.
As soon as I saw someone was in doubt I corrected it by stating what I meant after that it still went on for more than 2 pages. And I should apology ?
Ok, sorry for asking.
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Frank, you have nothing to apologise for, you've done it already and explained yourself on several occasions.
Having seen your images on this site I'm sure that it would have been a win/win situation if someone loaned you the gear.
Unfortunately the internet doesn't have the self censorship that occurs with face to face conversations. Writing in a second language doesn't help. Being new to a site doesn't help either.
On a lighter side if you want to learn how to apologise Japanese style this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBKk_J1b7NM) is instructional.
Cheers,
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Frank, you have nothing to apologise for, you've done it already and explained yourself on several occasions.
+1.
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I don't think this is a country specific cultural change, but an internet and generational change of viewpoint.
In the past Mr. X would display photographs with logos featuring his photographs and equipment manufacturers. In my world and most parts of the world (including europe) that would be considered advertising.
Also Mr. X used this forum to announce for profit seminars. Once again in my world that is a form of advertising or at least a classified ad.
Now this last post that Mr. X started was to ask for free equipment to use for a for profit seminar and to announce the seminar. Once again is this advertising or information?
That's pretty much the issue with the web and something everyone of us have run up against . Is the web free? Is everything connected to web information free?
But I don't believe this is country specific, I believe this is "for profit" specific.
I guess this would be viewed differently if all of this for for a non profit organization, but the main thing is it's not my or anyone's decision what is allowed on this forum
It's up to the owners and site administrators.
Still, I guess it begs the question, is this information or gaming the system?
I guess it's what side of the fence you stand on. I know phtographers that would be incensed of someone put a logo on their photo for profit and did not pay, though have no issue doing the same if it works in their favor.
I'm not judging, in fact I'm just asking if this is the new standard.
BC
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When you write it down like this mr x. Gets à totally different "personna" scketch than he actually is ;(
I feel saddened by what happened. A good name is build In years and can be destroyed in seconds. Only due to people "wanting" to misread or misunderstand something.
Again I had no bad intentions whatsoever. It's no advertising also, all seminars are 100% booked, part of the seminars are non commercial. The workshop delivers me enough money to pay for my travels and I will keep some profit but not enough to cover being away for two weeks.
For me teaching is an honor, especialy as part of the Kelby team so I gladly break even for that. So Please don't paint me as a commercial wolf hunting for freebies.
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So when u ask for a favor, you should pay? A free workshop, and all its OK?
Favor mean you do not get pay, or pay.
Why the world became be, give me,give me and give me more? You guy will die, maybe rich, and what you will do with the money?
If you do a favor, walk away, feel good, and move on, why you need to be pay? If you always expect to be pay, never call it a favor, even if you get pay a cent.
I do not know him, and if he would it use my camera even if i have chance to go to his workshop, I wouldn't, for free. Maybe you will say, but you giving something for free, so what, I do not expect to be pay.
Leave the guy alone, he have a camera already. BTW I am going to DR anyone there can let me drive a van for 16 people for 12 days?
If you are going to let me use it, remember, I give zero back. I will send a post card, saying how great all was, and saying thank you.
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I cannot believe some of the people in here.
I always held LL on a higher standard than other forums, but nope... a select few bring this down to DPReview levels.
Frank is one of the most selfless people in the industry. Next time you open your mouth, you should maybe know something about the person that is asking and why they are asking. I mean seriously...
What did some of you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
Frank is right, takes years to build up a reputation and seconds to lose it... for simply asking someone to borrow a camera. Frank is quickly becoming a bigger name, yes.... but that doesn't mean he's showered with gear. In fact he isn't. And in this case, like the rest of us, he has to pay/pull some long strings to get pieces of gear.
Some people are just generally pissy and unhappy. I think that's been proven here in this thread, considering it's 3 pages about someone asking to borrow a piece of gear.
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I did not think such a request would warrant so much activity.
Anyway I had reached out to Frank as soon as I saw the post offline to offer our assistance.
I have known Frank through the forums for many years and have actually had the pleasure of meeting him once when he visited Miami.
Over the years he has been extremely helpful to the people on the forums he has frequented and all the manufactures that he has worked with always spoke with him in the highest regard.
We usually try to help out and support the education of Medium Format Digital wherever possible by supplying equipment, materials or even presenting when requested. My feeling is the more people that are exposed to Medium Format Digital the better it is for the industry and the photography market. It is hard for people to see and feel Medium Format Gear because of its limited distribution.
As a reseller and evangelist of Medium Format Digital it is important to get people to see and experience the difference.
So for anyone concerned Frank will have a Mamiya/Leaf system to use for his upcoming workshops.
Looking forward to assisting you Frank.
Best regards,
Lance lns@digitaltransitions.com
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I just wanted to say that Frank Doorhof is one of the nicest down to earth photographers I have ever known in this commercially dying industry. This man is kind enough to share with his hard earn knowledge for free every time ones send an email asking repetitive questions that thousands photographers have already asked him! He does not have a big head big a big heart that love to help other fellow photographers wherever they are, in my case, I am in Melbourne, Australia!
Thanks Frank for answering my questions the soonest you can in the past couple of years.
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Hi Frank,
I e-mail my friend regarding your needs. If he is in US he will help you.
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I guess I still think this should be no big deal. Whatever Frank was asking for involved a negotiation over trading favors, the terms of which, by their ad hoc nature, you can't really proffer. I saw no indication of quid without quo.
As for promotion. I think everyone should have some opportunity to promote their work in a collegial way through this site. The entire site is a bit of a home-brew club for medium-format photographers, complete with industry tie-ins and workshop and video promotion. And so be it. Those who truly abuse the community are run out of town in very short order.
Given that Frank has been around here for years, posting images from his workshops in the "professional work" thread, I should think that he would be accorded as a member of the community in good standing. I can't see where he's done anything to change that.
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Maybe we need karma points attached to our posts....I am privileged to get honest feedback from some really smart people on this site...I am also offended by people who feel they are the law/police and are quick to judge others. I do remember the net as a more civil place, where people would share freely and always seemed to to turn to humor and levity even in the most adverse settings.
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One of my favourite quotes is from sitcom writer Graham Linehan, in his 'Father Ted - the Complete Scripts':
"you can never underestimate the desire some people have to be offended"
That was certainly the first thing that sprang to my mind, at seeing some people claiming to be "offended" by Frank's totally innocuous request.
Ray
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Enjoy.
All this isn't that important. I guess if the thread had cross the limit, the adminisrators would have warned or close it.
Frank is a nice person and I think we all like him in this forum. In a question of days all this noise will remain forgotten.
A video frame of the latest in editing process to change the buzz.
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i think this article sums up what happened here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-life-asker-guesser
i found it rather eye-opening.
"We are raised, the theory runs, in one of two cultures. In Ask culture, people grow up believing they can ask for anything – a favour, a pay rise– fully realising the answer may be no. In Guess culture, by contrast, you avoid "putting a request into words unless you're pretty sure the answer will be yes… A key skill is putting out delicate feelers."
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The horse is dead...long live the horse.
Really, this whole thread has progressed into the absurd...and Frank has already flown out of the Netherlands and is prolly getting ready for PSW DC.
So, to everybody: the horse is dead...he's already been turned into cat food (you know, they eat horses in France?). Please quit beating the dead horse...he's dead already.
There's no reason to keep hitting this poor thing (on either side of the fence).
I think it will be a cold day in hell if Frank decides to ask much from the LuLa community (regardless of the support he ended up getting from some).
I guess most Americans don't understand Europeans very well. The majority of Americans don't even have passports and have never traveled outside our shores. Too bad, the world at large is an interesting place and without a lot of the "tension" caused by American, uh, well, ignorance. And if you are a Republican Tea Party Member and you think this is directed at you, you are correct.
The USA may be the most prosperous country in the world, but we aren't the most understanding and tolerant...sorry, but we really just don't understand the rules of more gentile civilizations...we still kinda think we're the center of the universe.
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I think it is easy to generalize.
The size of the country has a great deal to do with travel and passport compliance. Usually the larger and more diverse a country the less people travel abroad, which makes sense.
Though the figures are murky most common thought is 21 to 34% of American's have passports, about 10% less than Canadians.
Quoted from a French report the Dutch travel more then any other Europeans. 71% of the people questioned have in the past 12 months been out of Holland. Belgium was 2nd with 68%. People in France, Italy and Spain traveled the least with only 1 in 5 leaving the country in the past 12 months, but most of these statistics are not from official census or facts.
Now I've traveled and worked in most the world and though I've obviously seen cultural differences, I find goodness and kindness or lack there of comes from a personal viewpoint and personal experience. Usually government borders, religion or economics have little to do with how generous a person is or isn't.
I do know I try not to paint every culture with a broad brush.
In regards to Mr. X, rightly or wrongly he got his desired result, which is equipment use for free.
Medium format kit in Boston rents for about $550 a day with one or two lenses. Since Mr. X probably spent about 30 minutes on this thread I think $550 for 30 minutes is a good return.
Some people will like that, some won't, but the results are the results.
IMO
BC
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"The USA may be the most prosperous country in the world"
whatever gave you that idea?!? :D
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Sponsoring a workshops can be done with door prices, gear or financial contributions.
Often starting at much more than 550.00
So I REALLY think we both got what we wanted.
I REALLY stress that it's not a FREEBIE.
I could have done the workshop with a DSLR, I could have borrowed Brendans Hasselblad (the organizer of the workshops) however because I normally promote Leaf I wanted to hook up with a dealer and ask if he/she would be interested in having some free promotion/publication/demo options. OR a student who wanted a free workshop.
Seeing the workshops are rated at 499.00 US I think the student would have broken even, and seeing the sponsoring we normally get from a company for the workshops I think the sponsor who now lends us the camera is also getting a good deal.
Again, I'm not the kind of person you portray me to be.
90% of the promotion I do for Leaf I do without getting payment, although I do get some nice deals on service, sometimes upgrades (but not that much) and I can often borrow gear when I want to test something, 100% of the images they use from me in advertising, promotion mails, website and brochures they get for free.
So please don't call me to be out for freebies, I give away ALOT of freebies, before asking something in return.
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The horse is dead...long live the horse.
Really, this whole thread has progressed into the absurd...and Frank has already flown out of the Netherlands and is prolly getting ready for PSW DC.
So, to everybody: the horse is dead.who kill the horse? why they kill the horse? I was professional Jockey, in when i watch hose race, i hate when the jockey beat the horse for not reason! so whio kill rthe horse? I travel all over Europe,Australia,Middle East,Asia and other, I didn't eat met in Asia at all, well Just in Nepal i did, because was so cold...But who kill the horse, then they eat the horse in France? WTF why they kill the horse then keep beating it before they eat it? I hate horse killer. Poor horse, was only one the kill or more then one? ..he's already been turned into cat food...WHAT? they turned the horse into CAT food? WTF how that happen? I can't believed what i am reading, they killed the horse, they ate it, and the rest of the horses the turn it into CAT food..Poor horse, i guess live its you die for other survive. (you know, they eat horses in France?). Please quit beating the dead horse.They should, the horse is DEAD...Poor horse,,..he's dead already.How they kill the horse? gun shot? poor horse
There's no reason to keep hitting this poor thing (on either side of the fence).Oh boy, they in both side? poor horse didn't have a chance...
I think it will be a cold day in hell if Frank decides to ask much from the LuLa community (regardless of the support he ended up getting from some).
I guess most Americans don't understand Europeans very well. The majority of Americans don't even have passports and have never traveled outside our shores. Too bad, the world at large is an interesting place and without a lot of the "tension" caused by American, uh, well, ignorance. And if you are a Republican Tea Party Member and you think this is directed at you, you are correct.
Why to go after Republican? I am register DEM? but no way I will vote for the guy the U have there..Why go into political now?I'm personally believe, if you work for your money, its yours, in no way you should pay more then anyone else. U poor TO BAD, stay poor or found a JOB...As i believe I think the only people it doesnt scare and who Obama hussein will be celebrating are the radical muslims, terrosists groups and of course the American commi's as well as the people who are depressed and need someone to hold their hand.
HE IS A LIAR and is BAD for America. This should be closed ,and lets frank do his JOB.
May God bless all
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It got really weird ... I can not believe that a simple request for help made such an emotion.
:-[
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You know what it smells?
It smells Michael pressing the red button: thread closed.
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??? ??? BlasR.... umm, what?
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You guys are ridiculous.
Frank is a teacher.
Nowadays with the Internet, any idiot who can start a website can pretend to be a teacher (cough, Ken Rockwell, cough), but Frank actually teaches people through his workshops. So what if he's sponsored?
Frank, I'm a bastard American as well, but if I had the gear that you needed and I was in the areas that you're traveling too, it would be yours for free, without question.
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+1 Blas
The most philosophical attitude in a thread otherwise so negative.
Having run workshops for over 15 years, worldwide, I have understood Frank's post and primary intention, included what is "without" saying.
I don't believe that this could be misunderstood or understood differently by either american or european natives.
it's only common sense, IMHO.
Best regards
Thierry
So when u ask for a favor, you should pay? A free workshop, and all its OK?
Favor mean you do not get pay, or pay.
Why the world became be, give me,give me and give me more? You guy will die, maybe rich, and what you will do with the money?
If you do a favor, walk away, feel good, and move on, why you need to be pay? If you always expect to be pay, never call it a favor, even if you get pay a cent.
I do not know him, and if he would it use my camera even if i have chance to go to his workshop, I wouldn't, for free. Maybe you will say, but you giving something for free, so what, I do not expect to be pay.
Leave the guy alone, he have a camera already. BTW I am going to DR anyone there can let me drive a van for 16 people for 12 days?
If you are going to let me use it, remember, I give zero back. I will send a post card, saying how great all was, and saying thank you.
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I might as well chime in my two cents before this thread founders in absurdity and achieves it's justifiably imminent conclusion. Above and beyond my surprise at the "mountain out of molehill" mentality exhibited by several herein, I am even more astounded by the fact that I can find myself to be in agreement on the main issue under discussion -- with BlasR, whose political orientation differs so much from my own. But he, Schewe, and others have made points in favour of Frank's position that (though they are accurate and appropriate), should not even have been required.
Regards, Clyde
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So, to everybody: the horse is dead.who kill the horse? why they kill the horse? I was professional Jockey, in when i watch hose race, i hate when the jockey beat the horse for not reason! so whio kill rthe horse? I travel all over Europe,Australia,Middle East,Asia and other, I didn't eat met in Asia at all, well Just in Nepal i did, because was so cold...But who kill the horse, then they eat the horse in France? WTF why they kill the horse then keep beating it before they eat it? I hate horse killer. Poor horse, was only one the kill or more then one? ..he's already been turned into cat food...WHAT? they turned the horse into CAT food? WTF how that happen? I can't believed what i am reading, they killed the horse, they ate it, and the rest of the horses the turn it into CAT food..Poor horse, i guess live its you die for other survive. (you know, they eat horses in France?). Please quit beating the dead horse.They should, the horse is DEAD...Poor horse,,..he's dead already.How they kill the horse? gun shot? poor horse
Well, I almost believed it...I started trying to read the response and thought, jeeesh, this guy has never heard the idiom "beating a dead horse". But I got wrapped up in the drama of his writing...and of course presumed his native language couldn't be English so I was trying real hard to parse the meaning...foolish me :~)
This is kinda a topper for this thread–which has almost entered the Twilight Zone. Weird factoid, the weekend I moved to Rochester NY to start school at RIT, Ron Serling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Serling) died at the U of Rochester hospital...ok, maybe not weird for the rest of the world but weird for me being a TZ fan...
Just sayin'
P.S. Actually, I don't have a problem with Republicans in general, but I have a real problem with the Tea Party "Movement"...apparently, so do Republicans...
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BlasR's reply to Jeff should go into some sort of Luminous Landscape Forum Hall of Fame, for being so unbelievable, it's awesome.
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Frank, you're welcome to borrow my gear anytime you set foot in Central Florida.
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Thanks guys.
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Schewe--If this thread is going to continue to radiate into the ether, it might better maintain it's substantiality by drifting toward the Coffee Corner. While being aware of that consideration, I will mention that I also enjoyed The Twilight Zone, and especially remember one episode--"Carol for Another Christmas." While debating can sometimes be more fun than agreeing, I will still confess that I concur with you that the Tea Party is the primary thorn in Republicanism. However, I have leaned Democratic for quite some time because the environmental issue trumps all others with very little compromise for me in perspective. I hope this post is not seen as being too far off topic; other than regarding useful response for Frank which is important, the original one seems to have thinned down quite a bit.
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What do you do in the TEA PARTY? you drink tea all day? I can drink tea in a party but no more then a cup. Who in hell will drink tea all day in a party?
Anyway, I never hear about TEA PARTY, I hear about just party and spend time together in so on. I think Brendan, is in love with me..sorry,I am NOT one of those...Sorry I didn't give u my lens either.Finally I said sorry, maybe u do your tea party in stay away from me....U do tea party brendan? Do not worry I wont go..A cup for me when its cold its good enough.
So, a list Frank, is out of the problem, now its killing horse ( how in hell they killed the horse)?, turn the meat into cat food, in then have a party just with TEA. I love this.
Jeff I am NOT american, i come here as a writer for Spanish News paper, and I tough was the best country,but,it turn to be bad,if I make a lot money, I can't keep it..I have to give money to those the want to seat in their ass. I really getting tired or this...So lets have a TEA party to take them down!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
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read the thread before posting something that is 100% offtopic.
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read the thread before posting something that is 100% offtopic.
Don't worry Frank. It's the typical English behavior ;)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
I thought it was funny from my side of the pond. Thanks Edmund.