Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Lupin on March 14, 2012, 11:43:12 am
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Hi all,
I have an X-Rite i1 Display2 which produces a green cast when profiling my monitor. Can anyone confirm that this is due to faulty gels?
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There's a lot of potential issues with i1d2, and relatively fast degradation of filters is one of them.
But it may also be unit-to-unit inconsistency, or a matter of fact, that i1d2 doesn't really work well on widegamut CCFL, W-LED, and RGB-LED backlit displays.
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I have been using an i1d2 for five or six years on a CCFL back lit monitor with no degradation or problem.
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I have been using an i1d2 for five or six years on a CCFL back lit monitor with no degradation or problem.
Here's a cross-validation result of my old Gretagmacbeth i1d2 done on a wide gamut CCFL LCD calibrated with basICColor DISCUS. It's not even funny:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19059944/Walidacja-i1d2.png)
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Thanks all for the replies. The i1D2 is out of warranty now so I'm thinking of taking it apart. Is there any way to change the filters?
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Thanks all for the replies. The i1D2 is out of warranty now so I'm thinking of taking it apart. Is there any way to change the filters?
Nope.
Was the i1D2 working well on this monitor before? If so, you have a dying puck. The filter problem affected a batch of earlier i1D2 units. More recent ones are more robust. As Marcin mentioned, the i1D2 is ill-suited to measuring wide gamut screens of any sort or panels with white LED backlighting. If this describes your monitor, the green cast may simply be the result of inaccurate white point measurements. It wouldn't hurt, however, to download the i1 Diagnostics utility from X-Rite to see it it flags your puck as bad.
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Thanks for info Ethan.
No, the i1D2 has never worked properly with this monitor (a CG241W). I thought it was me doing something wrong until I read elsewhere about the issue with gels/filters. I've already tried i1 Diagnostics and it goes through white & grey screens successfully but then it stops at the black screen with 'emission test not responding' written across the top of the dialog box.
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Dead puck. Replace it with an i1 Display Pro or ColorMunki Display.
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Replace it with an i1 Display Pro or ColorMunki Display.
Have you got either of those Ellis?
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Have you got either of those Ellis?
I have both.
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I have both.
Which would you recommend?
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Performance wise on my 27' iMac (white LED backlight technology) and Eizo CG 222W monitor (CCFL backlight), they both do an equally good job as the colorimeter is essentially the same but the software is different and you can't use the CM Display with i1 Profiler and vice-versa. The ColorMunki Display takes longer to do the job and is suitable for most photographers.
But if you have multiple computers, if speed is a factor, or if you are working in a pre-press type environment and need to spec specific pantone values, etc. the i1 Display Pro is the one to go with.
edit @ 4:02 PM EDST: I withdraw my recommendation of the Colormunki Display 2 if you are using an Eizo display as Lupin is. I've posted Eizo's list of recommended measurement devices and limitations in my last post in this thread. Thank you to Andrew Rodney.
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If you have a need to measure color reflectively, ambient light, build printer profiles, go with the ColorMunki. If your only goal is display calibration, a Colorimeter like the i1Display Pro is a better, lesser expensive way to go than a Spectrophotometer like the ColorMunki. The i1Display Pro will read darker emissive colors more accurately and is currently state of the art in terms of Colorimeters. There is even provisions for updating the filter matrices (we are waiting on X-Rite to provide a path).
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edit @ 4:02 PM EDST: I withdraw my recommendation of the Colormunki Display 2 if you are using an Eizo display as Lupin is. I've posted Eizo's list of recommended measurement devices and limitations in my last post in this thread. Thank you to Andrew Rodney.
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Performance wise on my 27' iMac (white LED backlight technology) and Eizo CG 222W monitor (CCFL backlight), they both do an equally good job as the colorimeter is essentially the same but the software is different and you can't use the CM Display with i1 Profiler and vice-versa. The ColorMunki Display takes longer to do the job and is suitable for most photographers.
But if you have multiple computers, if speed is a factor, or if you are working in a pre-press type environment and need to spec specific pantone values, etc. the i1 Display Pro is the one to go with.
Thanks Ellis. I only have one computer and (at the moment) one monitor. The ColorMunki is cheaper (2/3 of the price of the i1 Display Pro) so I'll do some reading up on it.
- http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-x-rite-colormunki-display/p1526087
- http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-x-rite-i1-display-pro/p1526088?cm_mmc=GoogleBase-_-colour-management-_-colour-management-_-x-rite-i1-display-pro_1526088&utm_source=googlebase
Apart from speed, are there any other advantages to the i1 Display Pro? I just want to make sure the CG241 is calibrated properly before printing from NEFs.
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Much as I hate hair splitting with the Digital Dog, I was referring to the ColorMunki Display, a colorimeter for display calibrating only. The ColorMunki he references is the ColorMunki Photo, a system using a photospectrometer for do all of the tasks he describes.
Don’t waste your time with the ColorMunki Display, it is the same hardware as the Pro with crippled software.
ColorMunki (by itself) is a Spectrophotometer. X-Rite has confused things (again) with naming conventions as we now have a ColorMunki Display (colorimeter) along with a ColorMunki (Spectrophotometer).
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Much as I hate hair splitting with the Digital Dog, I was referring to the ColorMunki Display, a colorimeter for display calibrating only. The ColorMunki he references is the ColorMunki Photo, a system using a photospectrometer for do all of the tasks he describes.
Yes I realised you were referring to the CM Display version. The CM Photo version is nearly three times the price :-[
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/search/Default.aspx?q=X-Rite%20ColorMunki&cat02=2023&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=ColorMunki&utm_campaign=Brand%20+%20Generic%20HVK&cm_mmc=google%20Warehouse%20Express%20-%20Computing%20%26%20Software-_-Brand%20+%20Generic%20HVK-_-Colour%20Management%20/%20X-Rite%20ColorMunki-_-ColorMunki
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Don’t waste your time with the ColorMunki Display, it is the same hardware as the Pro with crippled software. ...
What effect does the crippled software have on monitor profiling?
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edit @ 4:02 PM EDST: I withdraw my recommendation of the Colormunki Display 2 if you are using an Eizo display as Lupin is. I've posted Eizo's list of recommended measurement devices and limitations in my last post in this thread. Thank you to Andrew Rodney.
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What effect does the crippled software have on monitor profiling?
You don’t have the full control over luminance and white point targets. There is no provisions in ColorMunki for setting contrast ratio. These options are absolutely critical if your goal is a good screen to print match. Just having a few white point and luminance settings could work, if you are real, real lucky. Calibrating a display that has a native contrast ratio of 800:1, 1000:1 and a print that is 200:1 ain’t good. You want control over contrast ratio.
See:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
The hardware is the same, you are paying for far superior software to control this important task and the alteration of a 5X slowdown compared to the Munki.
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Don’t waste your time with the ColorMunki Display, it is the same hardware as the Pro with crippled software.
...not to mention the slower speed, lack of thermal stabilization, tripod mount, and 3rd party software support (with the exception of ArgyllCMS).
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How often do you use the tripod mount?
How often have you seen a disparity caused by the lack thermal stabilization?
How often do you think most photographers use 3rd party color management software?
yes all of those things can be very important - well maybe not the tripod mount - but it depends on what the user does.
it is easy to accept a deeper more complex feature set as adding value, but only if you actually use those features.
Andrew's points "having full control over luminance, white points and contrast ratio" are the only ones presented so far that make a valid case against the CM Display for most reasonably critical photographers. You can always add more eggs and sugar to a pudding but that won't always make it taste better.
Let's not forget that Lupin will be using an Eizo CG241 so presumably he will be using Eizo's Color Navigator program instead of either the i1 Profiler or the ColorMunki software.
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How often do you use the tripod mount?
Only when profiling a projector.
How often do you think most photographers use 3rd party color management software?
Depends on their needs and when the host software doesn’t meet their needs. Hence my advise about skipping the crippled software...
Let's not forget that Lupin will be using an Eizo CG241 so presumably he will be using Eizo's Color Navigator program instead of either the i1 Profiler or the ColorMunki software.
And ColorMunki Display is supported?
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And ColorMunki Display is supported?
Of course not.
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"And ColorMunki Display is supported?"
Good call on that Andrew! I thought it now did but am wrong according to Eizo @ http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cn/index.html : "ColorMunki Display is not supported."
I withdraw my recommendation of the ColorMunki Display to Lupin.
Go with the Xrite i1 Display Pro
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"And ColorMunki Display is supported?"
Good call on that Andrew! I thought it now did but am wrong according to Eizo @ http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cn/index.html : "ColorMunki Display is not supported."
I withdraw my recommendation of the ColorMunki Display to Lupin.
Go with the Xrite i1 Display Pro
A complete list of currently compatible measurement devices and limitations.
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I still haven't decided which to go for. ???
I'm thinking of buying a printer fairly soon so wonder if the Color Munki Photo is the best bet. Does anyone have any thoughts on this device?
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I still haven't decided which to go for. ???
I'm thinking of buying a printer fairly soon so wonder if the Color Munki Photo is the best bet. Does anyone have any thoughts on this device?
I would go for it. Never heard anyone say anything bad about it :)
If you want to be more serious, you could go straight for i1Pro2 Basic, or maybe get an old i1Pro off ebay.
Edmund
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If you have the money and will be printing enough to justify the expense, the new i1 Pro Photo 2 set up is as good as it gets. If you'll really be using a lot of different papers and constantly profiling, you'll probably want to add the i1iO table to automate the process.
If you will be printing mostly as an extension of your hobby or for the occassional portfolio or exhibition, the ColorMunki Photo works very well.
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Thanks Edmund & Ellis.
The i1 Pro Photo would be nice but it's $1700 new over here (UK) :o. The Color Munki Photo is around $450 - have both of you tried it?
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The i1 Pro Photo would be nice but it's $1700 new over here (UK) :o. The Color Munki Photo is around $450 - have both of you tried it?
Yes and they are apples and oranges in terms of functionality, options for profile creation and so forth. Now the Munki is a fine product. If that is your price point, go for it. The difference in price you quote is pretty significant.
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I agree with Andrew Rodney. I have not worked with the i1 Pro Photo 2 kit but am using the one that came out lasst fall and I use ColorMunki Photo as well.
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Thanks Edmund & Ellis.
The i1 Pro Photo would be nice but it's $1700 new over here (UK) :o. The Color Munki Photo is around $450 - have both of you tried it?
I have tried everything :)
The CM is a universal instrument, and I would recommend it if you think you can amortize it on a couple of generations of equipment.
Edmund
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Ed and Ellis - sadly, the i1 Pro Photo is way too expensive for me, so my two main options seem to be these:
a) Purchase the i1 Display Pro and use it now for calibrating my CG241W - then buy a second device for printer profiling after I've
actually bought the printer.
b) Purchase the Color Munki Photo and use it for the CG241W now and the printer later.
In the long run, option a) will probably cost a lot more more than option b) so the Color Munki Pro seems the wisest choice (even though the i1 Display Pro is newer technology). Does my logic sound sensible to you?
PS. I forgot to mention - there are one or two poor reviews of the Color Munki Photo on Amazon. I'm not sure if they're valid criticisms though - http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B00169N0BK/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
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Ed and Ellis - sadly, the i1 Pro Photo is way too expensive for me, so my two main options seem to be these:
a) Purchase the i1 Display Pro and use it now for calibrating my CG241W - then buy a second device for printer profiling after I've actually bought the printer.
b) Purchase the Color Munki Photo and use it for the CG241W now and the printer later.
Or c) Get an i1DisplayPro an maintain excellent display calibration and employ a remote profiling service for occasional top-notch printer profiles when you need them.
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Or c) Get an i1DisplayPro an maintain excellent display calibration and employ a remote profiling service for occasional top-notch printer profiles when you need them.
Yes, I'd thought about that Scott. It's a good option if only a few printer profiles are needed - but what if more are needed long-term?
The difference in price between the Color Munki Photo and the i1 Display Pro is approx £110 (GBP). Remote profiling costs around £13 per profile - so I could get 8 profiles before the cost of option c) overtakes option b). Would that be enough long-term?
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PS. £13 is the cheapest I can find, it can be up to £18.
http://www.nativedigital.com/products/Custom-ICC-Printer-Profile.html
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The CM is a universal instrument, and I would recommend it if you think you can amortize it on a couple of generations of equipment.
I took the plunge and purchased the CM Photo yesterday. I'm not sure whether to use the CM software or Eizo's Color Navigator - the latter uses the monitor's LUT whereas the CM software uses the graphics card (I think).
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The ColorMunki really is a good value. It uses the same i1Prism engine that powers i1Profiler (which evolved from Monaco Profiler) and the printer profiles have the same great Relative and Absolute Colorimetric rendering. i1Profiler adds the ability to tweak the Perceptual rendering which can really help final print results if you use that intent. The Munki only works with Munki software and the device won't be supported in i1Profiler, ColorPort, RIPs or other Pro software solutions. So it's a great value with some notable limitations.
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Thanks for that info Scott. Have you got any tips for getting the best out of it?
I've only tried the Munki software so far and the CG241 profile was quite a way off. I've yet to try Color Navigator.
Btw, Eizo say the CM Photo is compatible Color Navigator (bottom of this page http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cn/index.html) but it seems that X-Rite's software has to be stopped first in Windows/Services (see http://support.colourconfidence.com/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=194&nav=0,29).