Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torger on March 06, 2012, 06:12:09 am
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Ok, time for some rant n' rave!
How hard can it be to make a web site these days? It is very surprising that so many manufacturers of tech camera gear don't even have web sites (what?!!), and those that have have room for improvement to say the least. Researching digital tech cameras is like going 15 years back in time.
Arca-Swiss? French only?! What? Even if you understand French which I do to some extent (google translate fills the gap), it is a detective work to find out which parts that is actually included when you buy a camera and what you need to make a complete working system. So what is the lens board format? Oh, make a guess from the photo, if there is a photo, and if it is showing the right product. Is the ground glass included? Make your best guess... what is the focal flange range? Hope you find a blog that writes about it. Respond to email? Why? Just learn French and give us a call.
Linhof Techno, Toyo VX23D, etc the list of digital tech cameras can be made long, and every manufacturer makes it really hard to find out about what the product can do how you build a complete system and how you can buy your parts.
If they would just invest 100 bucks in web site development, make manuals downloadable (maybe need to write the manuals first), systems buyable without a expert dealer around the corner etc they would expand their business to a whole bunch of advanced amateurs. But NOOOO. Let's stay in the 90s, oh wait, 80s was even better when there was no Internet.
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I feel your pain ... :))))
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Welcome to digital large format world.
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Yup. I know you are not interested in Alpa because of the price, but I think they have one of the better websites. Tools, spreadsheets, links to lens info, links to dealer videos, etc... And if you register, you get pricing too (although list without local import effects).
A decent amount of the info, like the tools, spreadsheets and lens info works cross platform. Hats off to them. You just have to click the little button that turns off the sound after a while :)
Dave
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Yup. I know you are not interested in Alpa because of the price, but I think they have one of the better websites.
Yes, Alpa web site is quite nice, I've learnt a lot about large format digital through it. If I just was a little richer I'd buy from them just because of that. An other thing I like about Alpa is the user-shimmable back adapters. Let the user be in control, that's a huge plus in my book.
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@ torger
may be get a full quote, for a complete system and all included, and then compare the prices. The difference often isn't that which is believed to be.
And the Alpa site gives almost all needed information and even more, included prices as mentionned and if you register.
It is continusoulsy and immediately updated for any new product or other news. An example IMO how it should be, but am obviously biased.
Best regards
Thierry
Yes, Alpa web site is quite nice, I've learnt a lot about large format digital through it. If I just was a little richer I'd buy from them just because of that. An other thing I like about Alpa is the user-shimmable back adapters. Let the user be in control, that's a huge plus in my book.
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Yes, Alpa is an exception and their website should be used as an example by others (when they actually CREATE a website because direct competitors to ALPA tend to not have a website at all / totally lack in information).
Torger, you are probably aware of that, but just in case you are not- Arca has a webshop as well, not too fancy but at least you get the pricing and there's an english language version of it- www.arca-shop.de
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One example of lacking information, the Toyo VX23D seems like a quite good deal, nice movements, seems rigid etc good price. But hmm... after some reading between the lines it turns out that you unlike many other view cameras actually *must* have the sliding adapter because the normal back adapters cannot be easily swapped with a ground glass. And the sliding adapter (for which there are no photos or description, no information about weight or size for us backpackers) of course costs $4500 which is almost the same as the rest of the camera...
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One example of lacking information, the Toyo VX23D seems like a quite good deal, nice movements, seems rigid etc good price. But hmm... after some reading between the lines it turns out that you unlike many other view cameras actually *must* have the sliding adapter because the normal back adapters cannot be easily swapped with a ground glass. And the sliding adapter (for which there are no photos or description, no information about weight or size for us backpackers) of course costs $4500 which is almost the same as the rest of the camera...
... that's why I suggest to always get a quote from different systems for all you need, not just for the basic camera.
Best regards
Thierry
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thread title.....
....only tech cameras?
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thread title.....
....only tech cameras?
touché!
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thread title.....
....only tech cameras?
Absolutely!!
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... that's why I suggest to always get a quote from different systems for all you need, not just for the basic camera.
Yep, that's the best. But for amateurs/semi-pros with an economy to care about it's not a great situation to be in. You're not supposed ask for a quote just to get some idea of what these things cost and then dream about it for a year or so, when you ask for a quote you're supposed to be prepared to buy. Requiring a quote to get an understanding of how the system is built and operated is not exactly inviting.
I mailed the Linhof dealer here in Sweden a week ago asking some trivial questions about the Techno ("do you sell the Techno?"), still no response. And it is not the only dealer/manufacturer that doesn't respond to email (some do though), despite that I kept my mails short and concise unlike my postings here :). I guess email is a little bit too modern technology to deal with.
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For Linhof contact Paula at Linhof and Studio (http://www.linhofstudio.com/) in the UK - service is superb, and Paula is very knowledgeable about everything to do with Linhof systems past and present ... along with Alpa, Silvestri and large format camera equipment in general.
I don't have a Linhof dealer where I am, but the service from L&S is so good, I don't need one.
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For Linhof contact Paula at Linhof and Studio (http://www.linhofstudio.com/) in the UK - service is superb, and Paula is very knowledgeable about everything to do with Linhof systems past and present ... along with Alpa, Silvestri and large format camera equipment in general.
I don't have a Linhof dealer where I am, but the service from L&S is so good, I don't need one.
Yep, I've been in contact with Paula. If I go for the Techno it is likely I'll buy from there. I have a few more systems to look into. I just realized I've missed the Arca-Swiss M-two MF which looks interesting.
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... You're not supposed ask for a quote just to get some idea of what these things cost and then dream about it for a year or so...
Seems like you finally got it! Couple of adages seem to apply too:
-if you need to ask, you do not need to know
-tire-kickers need not apply
Or perhaps they are small businesses with no time to tend to the huge audience of, say, 1.6 wanna-be pros?
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Or perhaps they are small businesses with no time to tend to the huge audience of, say, 1.6 wanna-be pros?
Or perhaps arrogance will be the downfall? Providing a website with actual information you service everybody from pros to tire-kickers and it does not need to cost much either. It's a mystery. I've seen one-man companies have better web sites than some of the tech cam companies. I would be surprised if professionals don't need the type of information I want, i e data on the products. I'm not sure if these companies in the future can trust that business can be sustained only through local expert dealers, which is the old model they are at.
I also think the amateur market can grow. "Wanna-be pro" is a derogatory term that some pros like to use, but there are some amateur artists too, that are more interested in raising their level and commitment to photography than do it for a living, and just like some move to large format film some can move to tech cam digital. 35mm digital is reaching its optical limits, and entry level digital backs are becoming more affordable. Doing medium format digital landscape photography can today be about as cheap/expensive as bird photography is, a bit tricky to get good deals on the backs but it is possible (next two years it will be easier), and on every professional bird photographer I would guess there are 100 amateurs which has committed enough to get pro equipment.
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35mm digital is reaching its optical limits, and entry level digital backs are becoming more affordable.
Remember you get what you pay for. I say this because you seem to have a lot of technical issues that warrant perfection and perfection is not in the entry-level stuff, nor is it in the top-level stuff like you pointed out with the P1 180 + wide lenses. Just saying. Maybe you should shoot a 4x5" with film and f/22.
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Remember you get what you pay for. I say this because you seem to have a lot of technical issues that warrant perfection and perfection is not in the entry-level stuff, nor is it in the top-level stuff like you pointed out with the P1 180 + wide lenses. Just saying. Maybe you should shoot a 4x5" with film and f/22.
It's usually like this -- you never get more than you pay for, but you may get less :).
With tech cams, the challenge is to combine parts that work together as a system and perform well for the tasks you like to do in a workflow you like. Just buying the most expensive may not get you there. One example -- some of the Schneider wide angles are lower cost due to there are no retrofocus design and thus cheaper to produce, still very sharp, but not the best for a digital back that is poor at light coming in at low angles, like the P30 or IQ180, but the P25 and P45 are just fine. Those Schneiders are perhaps not as good as Rodenstocks at f/5.6, but if you work typically at f/11 or so that's no problem. Anyway, by gathering information -- which is not super-easy -- you get much better prepared to make an informed purchase.
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-- some of the Schneider wide angles are lower cost due to there are no retrofocus design and thus cheaper to produce, still very sharp, but not the best for a digital back that is poor at light coming in at low angles, like the P30 or IQ180, but the P25 and P45 are just fine.
The P45 uses the same Kodak 39MP sensor as my CFV-39 DB. I use mine on an ancient Hasselblad SWC with the 38mm Biogon lens, which has its rear element very close indeed to the sensor plane. Many voices of doom predicted dire results, but I don't seem to get awful vignetting, CA, or weird colour casts, just really nice pictures. So certainly non-retrofocus designs, even very old ones, can work perfectly well with particular sensors.
John
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I have the Arca-Swiss catalog, if you want it (8MB -- too big to attach here). No prices, but it has very thorough system information. This one might is from 2008, so it doesn't include the R system. PM me if you want it.
ethan
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Thanks.
My rant wasn't from the start about prices, it accidentally got there from that you practically need to get a quote to see what parts you need, since it is hard to get from the information web site. I have much less problem with that prices are not shown than that there is little or hard-to-decrypt information about the systems. But when you do have prices complete with "put in basket", like for example Arca-Swiss has, it would be nice to show what is included in the package.
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Torger
if you want info´s about Linhof it´s best you mail them directly at info@linhof.de
they will answer and they will point you to the nearest dealer at your place.
you can also phone them at Tel +49 89 72492-0 , the website is in english(and german) and though I think it´s not soooo fancy you will find anything needed at
http://linhof.de/index-e.html
Just a little solidarity for my fellow bavarian makers......... :)
Regards
Stefan
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The web sites are not he the only indication of which decade the View camera manufacturers are in ...
...look at the gear
¿Apart from the Hartblei, Have there been any major innovations since the Sinar P, about 50 years ago?
...Remember I am talking about cameras here, not the lenses or sensors.
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The web sites are not he the only indication of which decade the View camera manufacturers are in ...
...look at the gear
¿Apart from the Hartblei, Have there been any major innovations since the Sinar P, about 50 years ago?
...Remember I am talking about cameras here, not the lenses or sensors.
In some respects that suites me fine......
My Arca will still be going strong with its 50 year old manufacturing techniques long after many modern camera have been and gone.
If it ain't broke don't fix it is very fitting for these camera manufacturers as there are many things I could think of changing in the digital back and lenses I use but very little other than very minor tweaks to specific parts I'd change in my camera.
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I just realized I've missed the Arca-Swiss M-two MF which looks interesting.
The Arca ML2 is the camera I use and I love every bit of it and find it a joy to use but finding info about it on the web is almost impossible.
However I recently noticed Robert White Photographic, the Arca dealer I bought mine from here in the UK has just posted a video on YouTube doing a brief demo and explanation of the camera. Link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Vl3r-MAdc&feature=plcp&context=C3159b25UDOEgsToPDskLbxAwhWgGZJpQZ0JbNictN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Vl3r-MAdc&feature=plcp&context=C3159b25UDOEgsToPDskLbxAwhWgGZJpQZ0JbNictN)
Not sure its the best choice "landscape" camera but a fine piece of kit all the same.
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Well, I just felt I had to jump in here and say, YES, I think it is perfectly appropriate and OK to ask for a quote so you can think about it for a year. In fact, I did that two years ago, when I stopped in at Optechs Digital here in Seattle, after reading the piece Dubovoy did on the Alpa TC. A year later, I got a follow-up email, and I replied that I was still thinking about it, as I was, and reading everything I could, and trying to decide what my next investments in equipment should be. We are now two years later and I am still thinking about it. Of course, in the meantime, the real cost in dollars has gone up as the value of the dollar relative to the Swiss franc has gone down. I do expect to give my business to Optechs when and if I decide to take the plunge. I've refined my knowledge and thinking about this enterprise, so the time hasn't been wasted. I'm reminded of the poster who bought an Alpa system, then was disappointed that he couldn't enjoy focusing on the ground glass the way he had hoped to, so was going to sell his system not long after the purchase. It is a big enough purchase (for sure!!) that one would like to avoid a mistake. And we all have our own methods and preferences. So yes, just go ahead and get a good idea of what everything would cost you and then think about it! --Barbara
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An innovation could be a light-amplifying digital loupe for those dim ground glass corners perhaps ;).
I think the M-two can be fine for landscape, indeed heavier and harder to pack than a pancake camera, but compared to an old-school 4x5" field camera it is not so bad. View cameras have a few advantages from my point of view - 1) flexibility in movements, 2) romance, geared movements ahhhhhhh... black metal.... ahhhhhh... leather bellows.... aahahhhhhahhh.... 3) economical solution.
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3) economical solution.
Don't under estimate cost of ownership of the Arca ML2.
The cost to purchase the camera is very similar to the R's (in the UK) but while you don't have the added expense of mounting the lens (£700 ish extra) have you priced up leather bellows, extension rails, optical benches, recessed lens panels, quality dark cloths etc?
Can't quite remember now but I seem to remember the leather wide angle bellows and a recessed panel was between £500-£600.
Not as economical as you might think. :o
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Hi Torger,
Rod Klukas, the US representative for Arca-Swiss, has a newish website with all of the Arca-Swiss product brochures available to download directly from the right hand sidebar:
http://rodklukas.com/
A dedicated Arca-Swiss informational page:
http://rodklukas.com/arca-swiss/
Also, an embedded video page for Arca-Swiss products, currently showing an R-Line video and the Robert White MF-Two video:
http://rodklukas.com/video/
Rod can give you an estimate for a complete system (even from the USA) and can help you find a suitable dealer in Europe. I encourage you to get quotes from other manufacturers and believe an Arca-Swiss camera will be very competitive, especially when you compare features.
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Don't under estimate cost of ownership of the Arca ML2.
The cost to purchase the camera is very similar to the R's (in the UK) but while you don't have the added expense of mounting the lens (£700 ish extra) have you priced up leather bellows, extension rails, optical benches, recessed lens panels, quality dark cloths etc?
Can't quite remember now but I seem to remember the leather wide angle bellows and a recessed panel was between £500-£600.
Not as economical as you might think. :o
I don't like the look of ultra-wides. 35mm is the widest I'll go, and that might need a recessed board, but not sure (the Arca web does not say of course). I know it is needed 7mm recessed for the kapture group sliding back, but with normal adapters perhaps not. The wide angle bellows is good for up to 135mm meaning that I will probably need only that. The hiking lens set will likely be 35, 47, 72, 120, all those four lenses cost together no more than €6000, so adding 4 x €1000 in lens mount cost to that would be significant. Since I aim at second hand digital backs, starting with 22 megapixel, possibly even tethered if I'm brave (and in a couple of years or so upgrade to 40), the back can be had for only ~€3000, meaning that the camera + lenses cost will be considerably more than the back, so all details are indeed important to consider.
I do think the Linhof Techno suits my needs a little bit better though, but I surely look up the Arca further.
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I don't like the look of ultra-wides. 35mm is the widest I'll go, and that might need a recessed board, but not sure (the Arca web does not say of course). I know it is needed 7mm recessed for the kapture group sliding back, but with normal adapters perhaps not. The wide angle bellows is good for up to 135mm meaning that I will probably need only that. The hiking lens set will likely be 35, 47, 72, 120, all those four lenses cost together no more than €6000, so adding 4 x €1000 in lens mount cost to that would be significant. Since I aim at second hand digital backs, starting with 22 megapixel, possibly even tethered if I'm brave (and in a couple of years or so upgrade to 40), the back can be had for only ~€3000, meaning that the camera + lenses cost will be considerably more than the back, so all details are indeed important to consider.
I do think the Linhof Techno suits my needs a little bit better though, but I surely look up the Arca further.
All I know from experience is that if I was purchasing from scratch and all I wanted to shoot was landscapes the only cameras I'd be looking at would be Arca, Alpa and Cambo with their helical focus mounts regardless of cost and I wouldn't even consider GG focusing/tethering in the wild.
IMO I would just start with one or two lenses rather than your ideal four and build your system gradually rather that all at once.
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All I know from experience is that if I was purchasing from scratch and all I wanted to shoot was landscapes the only cameras I'd be looking at would be Arca, Alpa and Cambo with their helical focus mounts regardless of cost and I wouldn't even consider GG focusing/tethering in the wild.
IMO I would just start with one or two lenses rather than your ideal four and build your system gradually rather that all at once.
Yeah I know, some say GG focusing is impossible, some say it is ok. I've played around with a wide angle on 6x9 analog camera and yes it is not a DSLR live view, but I think I can manage. I kind of like the feel of using ground glass, and seeing the exact framing. The big disadvantage is that it is dim. Having the right loupe and avoid light leaks around the eye makes quite a big difference. Haven't tried the Silvestri tilting loupe, but I guess it can make big difference in corner focusing of the wides.
Later I'll do some sanity check calculations on DOF and bellows extension etc, but I'm quite sure that I don't really need the ultra-precision focusing distance of the helical mounts.
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Yeah I know, some say GG focusing is impossible, some say it is ok. I've played around with a wide angle on 6x9 analog camera and yes it is not a DSLR live view, but I think I can manage. I kind of like the feel of using ground glass, and seeing the exact framing. The big disadvantage is that it is dim. Having the right loupe and avoid light leaks around the eye makes quite a big difference. Haven't tried the Silvestri tilting loupe, but I guess it can make big difference in corner focusing of the wides.
Later I'll do some sanity check calculations on DOF and bellows extension etc, but I'm quite sure that I don't really need the ultra-precision focusing distance of the helical mounts.
Quite the contrary, I GG focus every day and it is very easy to get good focus with a good loupe but I always shoot product/interiors tethered so always easy to check focus but on location exteriors shooting tethered is sometime impractical. Then, unless your using the latest IQ back screen (and you're not) hitting 100% focus is a bit like going back to the 5x4 days and always having that doubt in your mind "did I nail that exposure?"
For me, that uncertainty is why I'd choose a camera system with a focus mount lens. It has nothing to do with how pin point accurate each manufacturers system is or what your expectations of acceptable sharp focus is but more ease of use. Forget corner focusing as the fall off with the wide (35mm) lenses is so great (up to 2 stops) at the edges, coupled with the "universal" fresnel mounted into standard GG screens, seeing much in all but the brightest lighting will be very difficult. On the Arca ML2, in focus and totally soft focus is a fraction of a millimetre on the rail measurements scale, thats how wafer thin the plane of focus is. Couple that with exterior light hitting an already dim GG washing out any trace of contrast to focus by and you soon realise that extra money spent on the lens mount may have been worth it.
Nothing is impossible, but anything difficult enough can soon become a chore and in my eyes, thats not "economical". :-\
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Nothing is impossible, but anything difficult enough can soon become a chore and in my eyes, thats not "economical". :-\
Yes when something becomes too much of a hassle is hard to measure/estimate, and even hard to test since one need to have some experience with a system under a longer time in various conditions to get a feel of how it works. If it doesn't work out well for me I guess I have to sell the system and lose some money. The risk of getting a completely new system will never be zero. But I do appreciate that you share your experience, I'll surely make a pancake camera budget too and see what it says.
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I've just been dealing with Seitz - their website is excellent.
http://www.roundshot.ch/