Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on February 26, 2012, 02:53:13 pm
-
If I'm correctly informed, the 7890 just lacks two colors (green and orange) against the 7900 and is same technology in the rest.
What I was told and found on the net so far is, that the 7900s bigger gamut only becomes important in proofing situations to get
better Pantone covering and in rare images with high saturations in these colors.
So - how would you people here with good printing experience judge the rendering of colors between the both in
- Landscapes
- Portrait
situations?
In Germany there is currently a cashback action running and I could get a 7890 for 2100.- Euros, the 7900 for 3100.-.
My current idea is to get the 7890 and forget about the gamut advantage of the 7900.
Is there anything more to consider?
What do you think ?
Thanks for your time and help.
~Chris
-
Hi Chris,
There's been an informative thread on this question here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47322.20 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47322.20)
Cheers,
Mark
-
Hi Mark,
I have read the thread you mentioned and it was one of the sources which convinced me not to go for the 7900.
But the last post in that thread is more than a year old, and so I thought I'd ask again - maybe someone has new info.
Cheers
~Chris
-
I should have known you read it, but wasn't sure :-).
Always good to revisit such questions in light of any new data during the time lapse. I haven't personally used either model so I can't offer first-hand comparative advice; but I have made direct comparison of output from my old 3800 and new 4900 (same technology as the 7900), and I have to tell you, any differences need to be looked for and are very subtle. Epson has reached a point of maturity with high-end printer technology that image quality improvements from one model to the next are really marginal at this stage, so for a thousand difference in price you'd be looking out for performance differences other than image quality to justify the higher price unit.
-
Thanks !
It seems I'll go out tomorrow to my favourite shop here in Hamburg and get my printer.
My first printer.
Finally!
Now the journey begins - I really got a bit bored from web publishing.
Many of my images will see the light as print for the first time soon.
[walks away drooling ...]
-
All I can say is that my 9890 has been totally problem and clogg free from day one.
john
-
Thanks !
It seems I'll go out tomorrow to my favourite shop here in Hamburg and get my printer.
My first printer.
Finally!
Now the journey begins - I really got a bit bored from web publishing.
Many of my images will see the light as print for the first time soon.
[walks away drooling ...]
Chris, if you are just now getting into printing, I highly recommend that you buy Michael and Jeff's From Camera to Print video tutorial. It will really help and the best value for content on the internet.
-
Chris, if you are just now getting into printing, I highly recommend that you buy Michael and Jeff's From Camera to Print video tutorial. It will really help and the best value for content on the internet.
Its on the list.
A friend of mine has the old version and I saw it at his house, but I'll buy the new one for myself.
:)
And thanks to the others for writing up your experience. I feel much safer now with my decision for the 7890.
Cheers
~Chris
-
All I can say is that my 9890 has been totally problem and clogg free from day one.
Ditto.
-
Has anybody done a side by side with about 10 different types of prints using both the Epson 7900 and 7890? Or similar.
Garry
-
I think what David wrote pretty much shows the practical relevance or non-relevance of these additional inks. This is congruent with the statements in the other thread Mark mentioned. It is also congruent with what I heared of every dealer I was contacting the last days. So - I personally believe I can omit these 2 additional inks, but of course - a real side by side test can't be replaced by anything else.
Today I was confronted with a statement by a guy in a print shop who is using Canon Printers with the Lucia inks. He said, he has tried to use Epson, but was disappointed because of the rendering of red tones. He stated, Canon was better here, bacause they use CMYK and RGB colors. I have never heared that before and can't really judge due to my lack of experience. But what I know is, that he is very experienced and has been printing successfully for high level professionals and companies for many years. He said he tried but always came back to Canon. His example was, that a red tomato printed with a Canon printer could not be matched by a red tomato coming out of an Epson. I don't know, if this experience of his now is outdated with the Epson K3 inks or if it still may be an issue.
Would be great if some of the more experienced people here could tell about this issue or non-issue.
-
Red was a big issue with the first crop of HP Z3100s. I've never heard of this for Canon or Epson printers. I did profile a Canon 6300 (i.e. very recent vintage) and compared that against my 4900 using the Atkinson/Outback printer test page. The differences are trivial to the extent of irrelevance.
-
Red was a big issue with the first crop of HP Z3100s. I've never heard of this for Canon or Epson printers. I did profile a Canon 6300 (i.e. very recent vintage) and compared that against my 4900 using the Atkinson/Outback printer test page. The differences are trivial to the extent of irrelevance.
I really don't know what he did with that tomato ...
Maybe he's a bit outdated here, though running a great shop.
Seems its going to be the 7890 then.
Now, that I have decided for a printer - how releveant is profiling oneself?
I heared contradicting opinions - one guy told me, I would buy a colorimeter for profiling within 6 weeks, another said I should not waste money on that and let experienced people do the profiling for me and maybe in rare cases loan a profiling kit over a weekend. All of the dealers offer to make profiles for me if I buy the printer and/or paper at their shop.
Ideas ?
-
Red was a big issue with the first crop of HP Z3100s. I've never heard of this for Canon or Epson printers. I did profile a Canon 6300 (i.e. very recent vintage) and compared that against my 4900 using the Atkinson/Outback printer test page. The differences are trivial to the extent of irrelevance.
The Canon 6300 and the Epson 4900 have 12 and 11 inks respectively, so I'm not surprised at those results. The OP is considering the 7890, with less ink positions, which will probably clip certain saturated colors in some prints.
-
The Canon 6300 and the Epson 4900 have 12 and 11 inks respectively, so I'm not surprised at those results. The OP is considering the 7890, with less ink positions, which will probably clip certain saturated colors in some prints.
Is this conjecture, or you know the contribution of green and orange to the formation of red in the firmware algorithms? I have also compared reds from a 3800 and a 4900 - anyone would have a REAL hard time in a blind test. Reality has a nasty way of intruding on concepts.
-
Is this conjecture, or you know the contribution of green and orange to the formation of red in the firmware algorithms? I have also compared reds from a 3800 and a 4900 - anyone would have a REAL hard time in a blind test. Reality has a nasty way of intruding on concepts.
Conjecture.... which is why I used the word "probably". Then you have to ask yourself, why Epson and Canon would offer those extra ink channels? Either they extend the gamut, they are selling moonshine, or it adds to better output in other ways.
-
I really don't know what he did with that tomato ...
Maybe he's a bit outdated here, though running a great shop.
Seems its going to be the 7890 then.
Now, that I have decided for a printer - how releveant is profiling oneself?
I heared contradicting opinions - one guy told me, I would buy a colorimeter for profiling within 6 weeks, another said I should not waste money on that and let experienced people do the profiling for me and maybe in rare cases loan a profiling kit over a weekend. All of the dealers offer to make profiles for me if I buy the printer and/or paper at their shop.
Ideas ?
Nah - its the tomato - sorry, in the Atkinson/Outback test page its strawberries - the nicest, reddest strawberries I've ever seen. So some printers obviously do better with tomatoes than others, whereas strawberries are all the printers' best friends :-)
OK, back to serious - profiling -
A number of approaches:
(1) If you are using Epson papers, start with Epson AMERICA's own profiles. They are very good, and these printers have a very high degree of inter unit consistency.
(2) If the shop is offering free profiles for a number of papers you'd like to try, let them do it and test them in your printer. So far all is free.
(3) Next you get to pay - if you are not satisfied with (1) or (2), once you've nailed the paper or several papers you are likely to use most, get them custom-profiled. Much less expensive than (4)-
(4) Buying your own profiling kit - minimum requirement: a very good spectrophotometer and the software.
-
Conjecture.... which is why I used the word "probably". Then you have to ask yourself, why Epson and Canon would offer those extra ink channels? Either they extend the gamut, they are selling moonshine, or it adds to better output in other ways.
The gamut volume of a 4900 is larger than that of a 3800 (the former with orange and green, the latter without) - of course as measured through their respective profiles for the same paper. I covered that in my review of the 4900 on this website http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/the_epson_4900_printer_hands_on_and_down_to_work.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/the_epson_4900_printer_hands_on_and_down_to_work.shtml). The question is how much of this difference actually shows in real photographs of real subjects. It would depend very much on the image. For a great many images it would range from just noticeable to trivial, and then only in side by side comparisons. For some kinds of images it may be more substantial.
-
It's not just gamut volume, it's also how colours within that volume are rendered. Somewhat obviously, an orange ink is useful in things like sunsets, because you have orange ink to use - call it a dark yellow in a way, it means you don't need to use yellow-and-something-else to create an orange - you start with orange. This is most clear in smooth gradations of such colour ranges.
Whether it affects any particular image you'd have to test, and whether it affects a signficant number of images from a given photog, again you'd have to test. But there's certainly more to it than just numerical gamut volumes and in particular more to it than just gamut volume boundaries.
-
It's not just gamut volume, it's also how colours within that volume are rendered. Somewhat obviously, an orange ink is useful in things like sunsets, because you have orange ink to use - call it a dark yellow in a way, it means you don't need to use yellow-and-something-else to create an orange - you start with orange. This is most clear in smooth gradations of such colour ranges.
Whether it affects any particular image you'd have to test, and whether it affects a signficant number of images from a given photog, again you'd have to test. But there's certainly more to it than just numerical gamut volumes and in particular more to it than just gamut volume boundaries.
Thats exactly what this printshop guy was talking of.
But it appears that its a minor issue or non-issue for everyone I asked, at least with the modern printers available.
So - I think I have no other way than just start with my decision.
For the beginning I have to learn a lot anyways and think that 7890 will be good enough for me for quite a while.
-
It's not just gamut volume, it's also how colours within that volume are rendered. Somewhat obviously, an orange ink is useful in things like sunsets, because you have orange ink to use - call it a dark yellow in a way, it means you don't need to use yellow-and-something-else to create an orange - you start with orange. This is most clear in smooth gradations of such colour ranges.
Whether it affects any particular image you'd have to test, and whether it affects a signficant number of images from a given photog, again you'd have to test. But there's certainly more to it than just numerical gamut volumes and in particular more to it than just gamut volume boundaries.
Hi Phil, I'm standing here comparing the outputs of the Atkinson test page for Epson 3800 vs 4900 under D50 Solux illumination - the sunset image, the orangy rock structure image, the fall tree leaves image, and the smooth colour ramps (orange not being one of them, but red and yellow are represented) and the difference is ZILCH. And my visual perception of fine colour differences is very acute, even at my age! And to boot the 7890 has Vivid Magenta, which the 3800 didn't have. Assuming the 7890 is even better than my 3800 was, I just can't see what Chris has to gain of practical significance spending an extra thousand Euros on a 7890 versus a 7900. The image quality of all these machines is so close that in the final analysis in this kind of situation it really comes down to price - unless you would suggest any major differences in build quality having a real impact on prospective longevity.
-
Is ZILCH for Epson what gloss enhancer is for HP ?? :P
-
If gloss enhancer for HP does nothing, then yes :-)
-
Seems I just learned a new funny word.
How I love it!
Now the last question for today - no - its not if I want a RIP - I think I can skip that.
But what would you recommend as a simple means for storing all these awesome prints I'm going to create on this even more awesome printer?
Since I'll most likely print 24*36 and 24*28 inch I wonder if storing vertical is appropriate or if a horizontal storage is recommended?
My feeling tells me vertical, but with protection from bending.
Ideas ???
I mean its going to be art and art is expensive ...
-
The kind of cabinets that print galleries, architects and engineers use for storing drawings flat.
-
I was afraid that migth be the answer.
Maybe I can get one spare from a friend, but these are space eaters ...
Now I must go to bed or I'll ask too much.
Thanks everyone for helping out in this thread, especially Mark.
G'night 'n cheers
~Chris
-
A few years ago, when the HDR inkset was launched, I was discussing an issue regarding rendering of certain colours with Eric Chan. To cut a long story short, he had an image that didn't print too well on a 3800, but when I printed it using an HDR inkset machine (think it was a 9900, but honestly don't remember), it was significantly better and the stepping/graininess went away.
That was a particular image and a particular colour, which is the key point. There are some instances in which it will assist a photographer. For proofers trying to hit spot colours, it can be of assistance more often, of course.
It's just that the whole tale is not told by gamut boundary maps nor even just by the number of inks. The Epsons have a massive LUT that they use that will choose different ways of rendering a colour depending on a host of factors. That's perhaps even more important than the absolute gamut volume and boundaries and the internal gamut "depth" derived purely from the inkset colours.
All that said, of course as Mark says there are going to be a lot (most? - depends on the photog and their subject preferences, I reckon) of images where it matters not one bit? Absolutely.
-
I made test prints on Canon and Epson with heavy red, orange and magenta tones and it is clear the "issue" mentioned above is history. I showed them to that print shop guy and he jawdropped and said he'll checkout Epson on the upcoming photokina. Difference was "zilch", indeed.
In the meantime I got my 7890 and it seems It needs a technician (will visit me on thursday), since it likes to spit cyanish ink in big drops on the paper. Phone support said it might be a jammed valve somewhere. The good thing is: They will most likely be able to fix it and I'll get a new set of starter ink and a new maintenance tank.
The 2 prints I made were awesome, but I also had to learn at 16*24 the print is already quite unforgiving against any postprocessing errors. 24*36 cm must be even worse.
Seems I have a learning curve ahead. The new C2PS videos will help a lot I assume - quite a blow up in content compared to the old version. Good stuff - thanks Michael and Jeff for the good work.
I'll report how the story goes on.
Thank you very much so far to everyone on the thread here.
-
Yes Chris, these printers very faithfully reproduce all our errors, and what I find even more disconcerting are the times I see stuff on paper that I didn't see on the display - only to go back to the display and observe that indeed the "new" problem I saw on paper was also evident on the display. Something about seeing an image on paper that really focuses the mind. This could be a generational thing, because my appreciation of graphic arts matured before the digital era took hold - in the days when all that counted was what is on paper.