Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Dano Steinhardt on February 01, 2012, 03:12:20 pm
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With the recent posts regarding the Epson Exhibition Canvas family, I thought many here would be interested in some recommendations and answers to repeating questions.
I’m with Epson America and will try not to sound too much like “the marketing guy”….
With that said, in the past few years I’ve printed almost every print on display at Epson’s photographic trade shows in the United States, and have real world hands-on experience with printing on all the Signature Worthy branded papers on a variety of Epson printers. So I’ve made all the mistakes that you can learn from :)
The following is specific to the Epson Exhibition Canvas family and not to older Epson branded products or different Epson branded products that might be found outside of North America.
I will try to stay in summary mode and it’s easiest to think in a backwards workflow starting with top-coating.
Coating Epson Exhibition Canvas
If using MK ink, a top-coat should be used.
If using PK ink, a top-coat is often not required.
Most (not all) canvas is stretched and then displayed/exposed to the elements. Without a top-coat, a MK printed canvas may be damaged by a variety of sources from fingerprints to sneezes. If behind glass, those fingerprints and sneezes are not an issue, but most (not all) canvas is not displayed behind glass. Canvas produced with PK ink is more durable than with MK ink, and in many cases does not require top-coating for handling.
Brushing, Rolling and Spraying Epson Exhibition Canvas
Exhibition Canvas Matte: A top-coat can be applied by either brushing, rolling or spraying. Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating.
Exhibition Canvas Satin: If top-coating, it should be applied by spraying. Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating. Some have success rolling a top-coat, but more report ink collection on the roller and thus the recommendation to spray.
Exhibition Canvas Gloss: If top-coating, it should be applied by spraying. Wait 48 hours in a temperature and RH controlled environment before top-coating. Some have success rolling a top-coat, but more report ink collection on the roller and thus the recommendation to spray.
MK or PK , Why Are There Profiles for Both with Satin?
Exhibition Canvas Matte: Only MK profiles are posted because only MK ink will work.
Exhibition Canvas Satin: MK and PK profiles are posted. MK can yield slightly better DMax, but in most cases requires top-coating. PK still produces excellent quality, and in most cases does not require top-coating.
Exhibition Canvas Gloss: Only PK profiles are posted. MK will work but there is little quality benefit compared to PK. And in most cases, PK does not require top-coating.
Why 3 Canvases?
Exhibition Canvas Matte: It’s less expensive than Satin and Gloss and via top-coating, one can make a Matte, Satin or Gloss finish. Of the three canvases in the family, Exhibition Canvas Matte can be top-coated by either rolling, brushing or spraying.
Exhibition Canvas Satin: It’s more expensive than Matte, but in many cases does not require top-coating and has a Satin/Semigloss finish.
Exhibition Canvas Gloss: Its more expensive than Matte, but in many cases does not require top-coating and has a glossier finish.
Driver Settings for Epson Printers (4900, 7890, 7900, 9890, 9900)
Exhibition Canvas Matte with MK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Watercolor Radiant White as the Media Type
Exhibition Canvas Satin with MK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Watercolor Radiant White as the Media Type
Exhibition Canvas Satin with PK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) as the Media Type
Adjust color density to -6%
Exhibition Canvas Gloss with PK Ink:
Use the latest driver
Use Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) as the Media Type
Adjust color density to -13%
Do not set the Media Type to “Canvas.” Be sure to adjust color density under Advanced Settings if recommended in the PDF posted with each profile.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Thanks for that info. It is interesting to note that we should not set the media type to canvas.
For those who are using Canon printers, I wonder what media settings should be used?
BTW, do you know if matte canvas with satin coat would be basically the same look as the satin canvas? Do one has better saturation and DMAX than the other?
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And I have the first correction :D
The color density numbers when using PK and Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) will change depending on the printer.
In my zeal to keep things simple, I only quoted numbers from just one printer.
Bottom Line: Be sure to read the PDF that accompanies each profile for the correct media type setting and if a color density setting outside of the default is recommended.
Dano
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Thanks for that info. It is interesting to note that we should not set the media type to canvas.
When I mentioned how others can learn from my mistakes, this was one of them!
It sure seems logical that if printing canvas one should select canvas but:
The canvas media type setting in the driver was built for older generation products that required different ink loads, drying times etc.
In some cases, setting the media type to canvas with Exhibition Canvas can lead to coating problems later on.
Dano
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BTW, do you know if matte canvas with satin coat would be basically the same look as the satin canvas? Do one has better saturation and DMAX than the other?
Of the tests I've done and other tests I've seen, Exhibition Canvas Matte with a satin/semigloss top-coat, can look like Exhibition Canvas Satin without a top-coat. This was a visual assessment and not densitometric. There might be a densitometric delta, but visually one that is not significant.
There are several different top-coating products on the market and there may be variability between those particular products satin/semigloss characteristics.
Dano
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Hey Dano, congrats on the nice Epson booth at the WCAF show!
I really liked the great side-by-side presentation of the all Epson papers with examples shown under gallery-like conditions, framed and matted consistently minus the glass. What a terrific idea! It was so easy to see what each paper was really about which is just about impossible when thumbing through swatch books, etc. You really created a new standard with that setup.
Also, that GS6000...oooohhhh-weeeee! Sweet! You got me all worked up over that thing. I think I saw at least three of those sprinkled around the show.
Edit...to bring this back on topic, that turtle shot on the uncoated glossy canvas is really pretty darned glossy indeed and there is very little I can do to mess it up! Impressive.
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Thanks!
I designed the framing without glass/leaving a border/in a gallery lit environment/in color and BW, so attendees could get a better visual feel of the different Signature Worthy papers, and a literal feel by touching the prints.
As such, I usually have to reprint many of them due to palm and fingerprints, but its a much better way to demonstrate the papers than a swatch book.
One of the advantages of the GS6000 is high volume canvas printing.
The inks are solvent based so top-coating is not required.
Dano
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Thanks very much for this helpful information!
I've been using Exhibition Canvas Gloss for most of my canvas printing of late, and quite like it. I'm interested to read that you've switched the recommendation from MK to PK for this canvas, as it originally only had an MK profile (in fact, I had no idea that there even was a PK profile until I read your post above).
Regards,
John
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I had been using Epson Premium Canvas Matte and getting good results. I was disappointed to learn that it was discontinued and that a color profile was not provided for the Epson 3800 for the new canvases. Are there any plans to create profiles for the Epson 3800? if not, would I be able to use profiles from the 3880? Thanks, Steve
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For those who are using Canon printers, I wonder what media settings should be used?
I had first been using a Canon canvas and used the "canvas matte 2" setting. When I got the Epson canvas, this setting worked quite well with my custom profile. I did go about reprofiling for the Epson canvas and upon doing some tests to see what would be the best media setting, I found that I was getting much better shadow detail on the setting Special 6. The good thing about this setting as well is that it allows 3mm margins, something that the canvas setting wouldn't. My understanding is that special 1-5 uses PK ink, and 6-10 uses matte black, with the amount of ink laid down increasing as you go up. I made a custom printing target where I had really black patches, 255,254,253 etc, and also really light patches 000,001,002, etc for the primary colors and found special 6 to work better than some other recommendations I read about such as special 8 or watercolor.
Anyway, so for me special 6 works, but only with my custom profile, not sure how it would look on Auto. For $25 at inkjetart, you really can't go wrong.
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Dano,
Nice to see some official feedback from the top! I certainly started 2 threads myself on this canvas so I wanted to reply here. Now I am using this canvas with a Canon iPF6100, so not really sure how much different the pigment ink is when compared to Epson ink, so I have to keep this in mind.
As I said in my previous posts, the matte canvas I found to be gorgeous, especially when it comes to handling and stretching. Once coated, it was so easy to stretch and saved me so much time. The satin one though I found to be like cardboard too much and the way it curls up gave my poor printer some trouble. It did still stretch ok, but given the extra stiffness, you have to really stretch it tight to get out any creases. I had made the mistake of using MK black ink on the satin one and the black inks ran like crazy (once again though... canon ink). Now it is true that I didn't leave it to dry for 2 days and went to coating several hours later, but this was of course dictated by when I needed to get it all done (and the way I worked with the matte canvas and didn't have any problems). Even after coating, when I was stretching, the full black border that was printed to stretch around the side was just too fragile. Perhaps it doesn't continue to dry anymore once its been coated (i would think it can dry from the back, albeit more slowly), but I was hoping that it would. Next time I need to use it, I would for sure use the PK ink and hope that this would solve the problems.
As someone else who commented in my other thread also said, canvas that will be sold really should be coated, and if this is the case, using the matte canvas and getting your final finish from whatever coating you apply is in my opinion the best option. You save money, and work with a canvas that is much more flexible than the satin or gloss one. You do of course mention this as well so I just wanted to let everyone out there know that yes, this is the best option. I think you'd have to have a pretty good and specific reason for choosing to work with the satin or glossy canvas. (oh wait... the guys with the epson printers spend too much money to switch between matte and photo black ink so this may just be it! LOL) (sorry about the jab!!!)
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Are there any plans to create profiles for the Epson 3800? if not, would I be able to use profiles from the 3880? Thanks, Steve
Unfortunately the 3880 profile for Exhibition Canvas Matte is not optimized for printing color with the 3800. The 3880 has a different ink set and screening algorithm than the 3800.
Dano
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Dano,
Nice to see some official feedback from the top! I certainly started 2 threads myself on this canvas so I wanted to reply here. Now I am using this canvas with a Canon iPF6100, so not really sure how much different the pigment ink is when compared to Epson ink, so I have to keep this in mind. The satin one though I found to be like cardboard too much and the way it curls up gave my poor printer some trouble. It did still stretch ok, but given the extra stiffness, you have to really stretch it tight to get out any creases.
Thanks!
And I'm told Canon makes very nice cameras :)
In addition to an improved Dmax and wider gamut, the Exhibition Canvas family is designed to prevent cracking/pinholes. As such, it will need some more tension when stretching but it should be manageable.
I produced a series of videos on the Signature Worthy papers. For Exhibition Canvas Gloss I worked with a surfing photographer named Sean Davey. Because of deadlines I successfully stretched canvases on his floor with basic tools before we shot. Though I accidentally stapled the edge of my index finger and uttered a few profane words.....
Check it out in the link below and check out how Sean dries his canvases.
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/FocalPoints/Story/SignatureWorthy_Photographic.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
Dano
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Dano,
Thank you for the very informative media info,greatly appreciated.
Not wanting to start a new thread or hijack this one only a very quick comment.
Please look at at Eric's thread about his 7900 issues when you have a free moment.
3000 views in less then 2 weeks. Tomorrow it may be at 4000!
What we need more then anything from Epson at this point is a liason that can help with some of these issues we are fighting.
It is just one losing battle after another with no help in sight.
Tech support may not be your department but as you are probably already saying "Those decisions are made at a much higher pay grade then mine"
Edited to add.
Dano,a special thanks for reaching out.
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Dano,
What is the platen gap setting for the Epson Exhibition Satin Canvas? We have a 9900 and I have been setting it at the max which is I think 4. I have not been able to print on this canvas with the normal setting. The print head will strike the edge of the canvas because of its thickness.
I initially didn't like this canvas. For over 5 years I have rolled the coating. I now have to spray and that is a learning curve. I will soon be purchasing a Fuji mini mite 3 for this. The Dmax on this canvas brings my files to life and the sales are good. So the investment in a good sprayer is worth it to me.
WHY COULDN'T EPSON HAVE PUT A WATER RESISTANT COATING ON THIS CANVAS? That seems like a no brainer. All the previous Epson canvas had this coating.
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Dano - I noticed that you recommend NOT to use the Canvas media setting. Why is that? I've used that setting as the basis for making my own profiles and it has worked very very well. Or is it that your own canned profiles were made with a different setting and they wouldn't be valid using Canvas?
Peter Figen
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Dano,
What is the platen gap setting for the Epson Exhibition Satin Canvas? We have a 9900 and I have been setting it at the max which is I think 4. I have not been able to print on this canvas with the normal setting. The print head will strike the edge of the canvas because of its thickness.
The recommended platen gap setting for either PK or MK ink with Exhibition Canvas Satin is, “Auto”. But depending on the temperature and relative humidity where the printer is located the platen gap may need to be set, as you have, to “Wide”. This is especially true in the winter when indoor relative humidity is often at its lowest.
Dano
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Dano,
WHY COULDN'T EPSON HAVE PUT A WATER RESISTANT COATING ON THIS CANVAS? That seems like a no brainer. All the previous Epson canvas had this coating.
In order to achieve the improvements in Dmax (that you mentioned are bringing your files to life) and color gamut along with the much requested no cracking or pinholes, these new canvases do not dry instantly. Exhibition Canvas Satin and Exhibition Canvas Gloss are water resistant, for most users, after a 24-hour drying period. In high humidity environments, 48-hours may be required and why that time is mentioned for general recommendations. Exhibition Canvas Matte is not water resistant and another reason why it should be coated. But with Exhibition Canvas Matte the coatings can be applied via rolling, brushing or spraying. Where with the Satin and Gloss, only spraying will work.
The term, "Water Resistant" has, over time, taken on multiple meanings with regards to canvas printing. The inks in the printers used by most in this forum are aqueous (water) based. So ironically it would be impossible to print on a true water resistant canvas.
Dano
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Dano - I noticed that you recommend NOT to use the Canvas media setting. Why is that? I've used that setting as the basis for making my own profiles and it has worked very very well. Or is it that your own canned profiles were made with a different setting and they wouldn't be valid using Canvas?
Peter Figen
The "Canvas" media setting was designed for earlier generations of canvas which had different ink-load characteristics.
Regardless if you use the Epson profile or generate your own, you will have a better result using Watercolor Radiant White for MK and Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) for PK with the Exhibition Canvas family.
Dano
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Dano,
I wonder if I might ask a question about the profiles for Epson Exhibition Canvas Gloss?
Comparing the MK profile with the new PK profile, I see higher Dmax and lower L for the MK profile, but both profiles show identical gamut volumes (1,593,059). I assume that the PK gamut volume got missed when the profile was updated, as it is bound to be smaller than the MK gamut volume - do you happen to have the correct figure for the gamut volume when using the PK profile?
Thanks!
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How would I get a profile for Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte for my Canon IPF8100. Also, what would be the best paper setting?
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You will have to custom create one. I've tried matte canvas profile and media setting on Canon ipf8300 with Epson matte canvas and it turned out horrible. You will have to do a color swatch print and scan and profile it. I was hoping someone already has that, so I don't have to do it. :)
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Anywhere I can buy a profile for the ipf8100?
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http://www.inkjetart.com/profiles/profiles.html
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Dana - Okay, over the weekend I came in to the studio and printed new targets for Exhibition Canvas Matte using MK ink on my 9900. All clogs were cleared prior to printing the targets and they were printed with the Adobe Color Printer Utility. I now have profiles and measurement data from both media settings - Canvas and WCRW. Along with those targets, I also printed at the same time with no color management my modified Photodisc test image, which includes gray steps and my own color and black and white images added to it.
To be honest, the visual difference was so slight between the two that most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference, although the WCRW version was barely lighter overall - maybe an eighth of a stop in photographic terms - maybe.
I then made a test print with both profiles using the corresponding media setting for each one and I have to say that at first I THOUGHT I could see a darker black in the WCRW version, but after a few minutes I was seeing it the other way. Seriously, both versions are visually identical. Just out of curiosity, I measured the gray step that started out as 0,0,0 in the original RGB, and in the Canvas media setting print, that black patch (printed RelCol BPC) read 22.2L with the Spectrolino, while the WCRW print read an even 22.0L. For all intents and purposes, they're the same but the bottom line is that they look the same, have the same color characteristics and the same gray balance overall.
I always like doing my own testing, and because you made it sound like users were going to see a huge difference, I felt this added test was warranted. I'm right up the road from you off the 90 if you want to drop by some time.
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Dano,
What about using this canvas on a 9600 / 7600? Any recommendations? I stocked up on Premium Matte last year, but need to start buying canvas for new jobs. Can I run this canvas or do I need to go to Premier art or some other canvas manufacturer?
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The Epson driver for my 3800 has Watercolor Paper - Radiant White as a Media Type choice. Is it possible that is only a choice when Sheet is chosen? My 3800 driver only offers sheet settings so I'm not able to check.
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Dano,
What about using this canvas on a 9800? Any recommendations?
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"What about using this canvas on a 9800? Any recommendations?"
I sold my 9800 to a friend, but to the best of my recollection, there was a WCRW media setting in the driver. That would be the one to use. What you're probably going to find, as I did, that the different media settings make a very little difference after you've made a good profile, and the most important thing is to use the same settings to print as you do when making the profile. Print out a test image that includes gray steps and look at it. Measure the 0,0,0 black patch and see if one is actually any darker than the others. Pick the media setting that gives you the closest visual to being correct so the profile will have less work to do in the end. The ONLY advantage I found on the 9900 to WCRW over Canvas media setting was that the WCRW setting allowed the use of ABW printing while using Canvas had that option grayed out and unavailable.
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Would someone please tell me which paper setting is supposed to be used in the Printer control panel itself (7900) since there is no setting for WCRW only related choices are Canvas and Watercolor Paper in the Printer itself?
WCRW is an abbreviation used by some for Watercolor Radiant White.
With the latest 7900 Mac driver, "Watercolor Paper Radiant White" (Which is the same as Watercolor Radiant White) is located in the Fine Art Paper fly-out menu under Media Type.
Dano
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In the list on the printer there is only "Watercolor Paper" and "Canvas" as choices. Which is supposed to be chosen on the printer,?please
Not in the driver - on the printer
David
Sorry bout that.
Per page 61 in the 7900/9900 Printer Guide, for Watercolor Paper - Radiant White select "Watercolor Paper" on the control panel of the printer.
I suspect this shortened version is due to the finite space available within the control panel.
Dano
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Dano - I think that what he's asking is not if he should choose Watercolor on the printer for Watercolor paper, but if he should choose Canvas on the printer and WCRW in the driver when printing on the new canvas media, not watercolor. At least that's my interpretation of the question. I've been using the Canvas setting on the printer for canvas media and it seems to be working well.
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Dano - I think that what he's asking is not if he should choose Watercolor on the printer for Watercolor paper, but if he should choose Canvas on the printer and WCRW in the driver when printing on the new canvas media, not watercolor.
A good practice with the 7900/9900, when using Exhibition Canvas Matte, is to set Watercolor Paper Radiant White in the driver and then set Watercolor Paper on the control panel of the printer.
BUT
In this scenario, software overrides hardware and it doesn't matter what is set on the control panel of the printer.
If one ignores the control panel on the printer and sends the file to the printer, the printer will print correctly.
WHY and WHY?
Q. Why the recommendation to set Watercolor Paper on the control panel if it doesn't matter?
A. For me its a good habit to get into for other workflows where consistency does matter.
Q. Why is this choice on the control panel there in the first place?
A. When doing print head alignments its mission critical to set the correct media type on the control panel.
And in non-photographic workflows such as CMYK proofing, the printer control panel does play a role.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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Can you give me some specific recommendations for which coating materials are ok with Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte? I am using an Epson 7890 printer. I only print occasionally so the easiest coating method would be best. Sounds like a spray, in an aerosol can, would the easiest but I don't know if it is available. Thanks.
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Can you give me some specific recommendations for which coating materials are ok with Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte? I am using an Epson 7890 printer. I only print occasionally so the easiest coating method would be best. Sounds like a spray, in an aerosol can, would the easiest but I don't know if it is available. Thanks.
There are many products on the market but some of the ones we tested, along with recommendations for their use, can be found in a pdf next to each of the Exhibition Canvases on the Pro Imaging web site.
The link will take you to the Media section of the site, click on the Fine Art tab and scroll down to Exhibition Canvas Matte to locate the pdf. There is also a video I did on how to stretch canvas that may be helpful.
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/MediaDetailsAll.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
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For Epson Exhib matte canvas, you have many options for coating. The most common are rolling or spraying a substrate on the finished canvas print.
Within this you have the option of water or solvent based solutions. I use water based mainly for easy of clean up. You can either spray or roll on the coating and there is a lot written on this site that delve into more details on both processes. Also on many of the company sites, there are video's that show recommended methods for rolling and spraying. Breathing Color has several video's on their site. You can also now find hundreds of people who have posted videos on youtube. It's a good idea to watch several so you can pick up on several different techniques.
Examples of water based:
Breathing Color's Glamour II,
Breathing Color's Timeless
Lexjet's Sunset Coating lineup
Clearstar's water based line up
Examples of Solvent based
Eco Print Shield product set
Within each of these families of product you will find, Glossy, semi-gloss, and some now offer a true matte finish.
I prefer to spray, but depending on your environment, you may not be able to setup a spray booth.
Paul
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I've found that Clear Shield Type C satin (www.marabu-northamerica.com) works best for all my Epson Exhib. canvases printed on my 9800. That brand does not separate in storage and requires just minor stirring before use. For application I use 1/4" nap RollerLite 6.5 in. rollers from Home Depot costing about $1 ea. I often do 2-4 large canvasses (64" x 18") at a time this way and most often get by with one coat, although you can re-coat as soon as the first coat is dry to the touch.
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For Epson Exhib matte canvas, you have many options for coating. The most common are rolling or spraying a substrate on the finished canvas print.
Within this you have the option of water or solvent based solutions. I use water based mainly for easy of clean up. You can either spray or roll on the coating and there is a lot written on this site that delve into more details on both processes. Also on many of the company sites, there are video's that show recommended methods for rolling and spraying. Breathing Color has several video's on their site. You can also now find hundreds of people who have posted videos on youtube. It's a good idea to watch several so you can pick up on several different techniques.
Examples of water based:
Breathing Color's Glamour II,
Breathing Color's Timeless
Lexjet's Sunset Coating lineup
Clearstar's water based line up
Examples of Solvent based
Eco Print Shield product set
Within each of these families of product you will find, Glossy, semi-gloss, and some now offer a true matte finish.
I prefer to spray, but depending on your environment, you may not be able to setup a spray booth.
Paul
Actually, Eco Print Shield is an aqueous based product as well, so dilution and clean up are done with water. I use distilled water for the dilution and regular tap water for clean up. I also use a 6" high density foam roller for application. With Eco Print Shield you really should shake it rather vigorously periodically in order to keep it in solution. Even then you will probably notice that when you are ready to use it you'll see little globs of the product as you pour in into the tray for rolling. Don't be too concerned about the appearance, since these globs will indeed disperse as you roll the coating onto the canvas. However, it's been my experience that if you don't maintain a routine of shaking the product on a regular basis it will tend to separate more quickly and you'll lose some of the effectiveness of the coating. It must be kept suspended in solution to be at full strength. Hope this is of some help.
Gary
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Gary, thanks for the catch, my mistake on Eco. :)
Paul
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Hi,
Just purchased some epson exhibition canvas satin (signature worthy) S045252 44"
paper for my Epson 9800 with Photo Black ink. Owned this printer for a long
time and had very little issues.
Starting to notice there is less and less support on the Epson website since it
is older.
Anyway, can anyone tell me some good settings for this paper and my exact
printer? I've searched the web for a while and haven't found anything concrete.
I have latest drivers installed on OS X 10.6.8, loaded the canvas and ran a test
print using the Epson Watercolor Radiant White (or whatever its called) paper
profile, I set platen gap to Wide. 1440ppi, high speed.
The first print had head strikes I guess and ended up jamming. Paper seemed
pretty flat. I'm guessing i need to adjust platen gap, suction, paper feeding,
etc. Never had to mess with that stuff because I've been printing with epson
luster for so long :)
Anyone have settings for platen gap, suction, etc.? I guess I thought once you
set printer to the paper type it would make some adjustments, but I guess it
only does the color tweaking?
As for humidity, I'm in San Jose, CA...so humidity is pretty average.
Thanks in advance,
Jordan
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Jordan,
The Media Type should be set to Premium Luster 260 (edit - thanks Dano). The profile you referenced will only affect color output, not printer settings. What Media Type did you choose in the Epson driver, not Photoshop?
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I have an 11880 on Imac quad snow leopard. printing thru epson driver as
described on pdf w the profile
SP11880_Exhibition_Canvas_Gloss_PK_v1 pdf
Nozzle check is clean
I used the epson profile- lustre setting -.11 on color density 2880dpi no color management,
color matches what I normally do on lustre and the premium satin canvas. This is showing on legacy files mostly in the black or dark grey areas
The black area seem to show a grainyness on parts of the canvas weave that are raised.
I adjusted platen gap to standard, , (there is no auto as stated in the pdf) and it seemed to
help a little but still some grainyness (- density) in black. It was worse on wide platen gap.
Does this canvas have to be run at 2880 and any suggestions? I built my own profile w monaco and x rite strip reader using canvas setting and it was worse.
I am redoing w lustre setting.
On a good note I do not have any problems spraying coating.
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Hi All,
Seems to be printing well now. Not sure if it was setting platen gap to "widest" or making sure there was no curl on paper edge. I've printed about 3 40"x50" prints with no issues.
For the other 7800/9800 users out there here are my settings:
Epson 9800 with Photo Black ink, current firmware, latest drivers
paper used: Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin
paper type set to Prem Luster (260)
-6% color density
No Auto Cut
Platen Gap set to "Widest"
paper suction: standard
Using the same color profile I use for Premium Luster (260) - a profile from Bill Atkinson
High Speed Off (maybe fine with it on but haven't checked yet)
Rendering Intent Perceptual
Color is not perfect, I'm sure it would be better if I had a profile made...but overall pretty nice.
Also tried b/w with Advanced BW Mode, seemed to work fine too.
Thanks for the help
Jordan
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Hi All,
I am just in need of a bit of clarification. I use an ipf 8300 and am setting up to use Epson Exhibition Gloss Canvas. I am still unclear on the best media settings etc. to use with this paper. I saw a recommendation of special 6. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.
Lisa
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Special 6 will get you the matte black ink which won't ever dry on the gloss canvas. I would assume that special 1 would be the best. From my understanding, 1-5 uses the Photo black for glossy, and 6-10 is for matte black. I used special 6 for the matte canvas to make my custom profile. Just by using the setting though won't get you accurate colors. It might be close enough for what you do, but building a custom profile might be what you need to do. I tried the satin canvas and it curled up on the edges quite bad and after two head strikes that causes the printer to shut down and then a cleaning cycle, i gave up on this canvas. It is far too stiff for my liking anyway. The exhibition matte is better in my opinion.
Hi All,
I am just in need of a bit of clarification. I use an ipf 8300 and am setting up to use Epson Exhibition Gloss Canvas. I am still unclear on the best media settings etc. to use with this paper. I saw a recommendation of special 6. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.
Lisa
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Thanks Dano, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did without your help on this forum.
1. Please pass along to the appropriate people in your organization that the Exhibition Canvas Satin box insert says "Matte Black (ink) ... is recommended by Epson", and the "Epson Exhibition Canvas Printing and Finishing Guidelines" from your website says "For Exhibition Canvas Satin, use Photo Black ink only". Luckily, I found this forum and read what you said. It would be nice if Epson's own documentation was consistent, and even nicer if it was as informative as you.
See: http://www.epson.com/_alfresco/proimaging/media/EPSON_Exhibition_Canvas_Printing_and_Finishing_Guidelines.pdf?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
2. The Satin Canvas printed box insert says "Increase leading edge margin to more than 1.4 inches (35 mm)." My 9900 menu gives me a choice to only go to exactly 35mm for the leading edge, and no more. I don't know how to get to "more than". Maybe they meant "exactly"?
3. The Satin Canvas is roughly twice as thick (23 mil) as the Premium Luster (10 mil), but none of the documentation says anything about changing the paper thickness in the advanced media control dialog box. I set mine to 6. The paper thickness field shows "(0.1 mm)" and a default value of 3 for Premium Luster, which I assume means that the value is in 0.1mm units, so that would equate to .3 mm, which is 11.8 mil (close to 10 mil). So I doubled it to a value of 6, which if that means .6 mm as I assume, equates to 23.6 mils. Did I do the right thing? If so, it would be nice if the icc pdf and the printed insert both called this media thickness value out.
4. I did experience very bad head rubbing before setting the media thickness to 6. I also set the platen gap to "wider" at the same time. After that I did not experience any noticeable head rubbing. I did not try changing only the platen gap or only the media thickness to see if I still experienced rubbing (my head had endured enough punishment). The printed box insert says "If you experience head rubbing...increase your printer platen gap to WIDER". I don't see how anyone couldn't experience head rubbing. The question I have is: What are the correct settings for the combination of media thickness and platen gap for the Exhibition Canvas Satin media? I wonder if I even needed to go to "wider" on the platen gap if I had the correct media thickness set in the first place.
Isn't the head's flying height a function of both these parameters? I know that sharpness will be degraded if it flies too high. I want to set it as low as I can go without rubbing to achieve maximum sharpness, don't I? Is it a function of relative humidity? When you're dealing in thousands of an inch, it seems like it should be a precise setting.
5. I observed a noticeable difference in sharpness in detail going from Matte Premium Canvas to the new Exhibition Canvas Satin (matte ink to photo ink also). Should the resolution be lower? There were other variables involved (up-res, sharpening s/w, platen gap) which I attribute the difference to, but I would like to know if the any of the lower apparent resolution might be attributed to the media/ink differences. I'm also wondering if I'm flying my head too high (see previous question), which could also cause a loss in detail.
Thanks in advance for anyone that can help.
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One more issue I've run into...
I printed a 44 x 64 and two 44 x 44's on the Exhibition Canvas Satin. They are all too short by 1/4" over 44" and more on 64", but dimensionally perfect in width. I changed to cheaper enhanced matte paper to try to debug the problem and the dimensions were perfect.
I am guessing that the back tension stretches the canvas (don't know if this has to do with printer thinking it's printing on non-stretchable media, i.e. Premium Luster) while it is printing and then when the tension is released, the canvas returns to its at-rest state.
Is my assumption correct, and regardless, how does one best compensate/fix this? Is the back tension set too high for canvas due to Premium Luster setting in driver, or must one just "fudge" the length to compensate for the stretching?
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Hi All,
Seems to be printing well now. Not sure if it was setting platen gap to "widest" or making sure there was no curl on paper edge. I've printed about 3 40"x50" prints with no issues.
For the other 7800/9800 users out there here are my settings:
Epson 9800 with Photo Black ink, current firmware, latest drivers
paper used: Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin
paper type set to Prem Luster (260)
-6% color density
No Auto Cut
Platen Gap set to "Widest"
paper suction: standard
Using the same color profile I use for Premium Luster (260) - a profile from Bill Atkinson
High Speed Off (maybe fine with it on but haven't checked yet)
Rendering Intent Perceptual
Color is not perfect, I'm sure it would be better if I had a profile made...but overall pretty nice.
Also tried b/w with Advanced BW Mode, seemed to work fine too.
Thanks for the help
Jordan
The color may not be perfect because you are using the Premium Luster Paper profile. You need to use the correct color profile (see Epson ICC profile downloads) for the Exhibition Canvas Satin PK in your application (e.g. PhotoShop or LightRoom).
Many people are confused because you use the Premium Luster as the Media Type in the driver settings dialog box. The color space transformation is done by the application, so that's where you use the new icc profile. You use Premium Luster as the media type setting in the driver because apparently Epson brought out the new canvas media without releasing printer firmware updates to support the new media type. It's a hopefully temporary workaround.
You also need to set Color Density to -10 in Advanced Media Control Dialog Box (Driver settings) per the PDF that accompanies the ICC profile and Dano's recommendations (because it's different for the canvas from the Premium Luster).
You need to set the paper feed adjustment (Advanced Media Control Dialog Box) and the leading edge margin (printer menu) to 35mm per the printed insert you will find in the box of canvas.
I set my media thickness to 6 to account for the difference in thickness of the canvas over the luster paper, but Epson does not say to do that (oversight?). I haven't experimented to see if correcting the thickness eliminates the head crashing and allows you to go back to a standard platen gap.
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One more issue I've run into...
I printed a 44 x 64 and two 44 x 44's on the Exhibition Canvas Satin. They are all too short by 1/4" over 44" and more on 64", but dimensionally perfect in width. I changed to cheaper enhanced matte paper to try to debug the problem and the dimensions were perfect.
I am guessing that the back tension stretches the canvas (don't know if this has to do with printer thinking it's printing on non-stretchable media, i.e. Premium Luster) while it is printing and then when the tension is released, the canvas returns to its at-rest state.
Is my assumption correct, and regardless, how does one best compensate/fix this? Is the back tension set too high for canvas due to Premium Luster setting in driver, or must one just "fudge" the length to compensate for the stretching?
I have this exact same problem with my Canon iPF6100. I've read about people increasing the "feed" amount and all this jazz, but if you ask me, its just because canvas shrinks when wet, not because the printer is misfeeding. The reason it doesn't shrink as much along the width is because of the weave pattern. You can also tell because its easier to rip in one direction but not as easy in the other. My solution is that I just extend my image 1/2" in photoshop with the "constrain proportions" selection set to off. So if my image is 60x20, i stretch it to be 60.5x20 and away I print. I'm very picky as well because I use a 2 inch black border which ends up being the sides of the canvas and hence I like to line everything up within 1mm. The Epson canvas is great because you can stetch it quite a bit if need be, or not stretch as hard and it still doesn't have ripples. I also reduce the width to be 19.9 inches so that once again, my black border start perfectly at the corner of the stretcher bar. I find if the canvas will only be 40 inches in length, then I just increase the image length by 1/4 of an inch. A bit of trial and error, but it works for me.
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What I observed is that the canvas "shrank" well before the ink had a chance to dry and it "shrank" in only one dimension. I don't know about the weave causing the canvas to be more likely to shrink in one dimension, but I do know the printer puts the canvas under tension in one dimension, and I do know that I measured mine before the ink had a chance to dry. That would seem to cast a doubt on your hypothesis as an explanation for what I have observed.
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It is not hypothesis. ALL canvas shrinks along the long dimension.
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What I observed is that the canvas "shrank" well before the ink had a chance to dry and it "shrank" in only one dimension. I don't know about the weave causing the canvas to be more likely to shrink in one dimension, but I do know the printer puts the canvas under tension in one dimension, and I do know that I measured mine before the ink had a chance to dry. That would seem to cast a doubt on your hypothesis as an explanation for what I have observed.
My one thought against this is that I know run my canvas through the printer with a paper setting of Special 6. The printer has no way of knowing its canvas. Since the paper doesn't shrink yet the canvas does, if you remove the variable of the printer knowing its canvas, then it can only be the material. Same ink... same printer settings... but different media. So it leads me to conclude that the canvas is shrinking as a result of the ink, which does dry pretty much instantly if you ask me, at least in comparison to printing on an acetate sheet. Furthermore, a 6 foot pano would have the first 3 or 4 feet having already had 5 or 10 mins to dry since it came out first and hence cause the shrinking.
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My belief is that the sensor that reads the length is fooled because of the texture of the canvas's valleys and peaks which add up to the same distance in a shorter length than on a flat surface!
that can't be true either as generally it shrinks only about 1%. If it was really counting peaks and valleys it would shrink like 30-50%. Plus, it is probably just counting the rotations of the paper feeding wheels, rather than some sensors reading off the actual media.
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Which sensor, located where, on which printer, do you think is measuring media feed? The texture of canvas would only make it easier to measure movement compared to, say, a very consistent and flat RC media.
It's measured mechanically as the system feeds the media. The only sensing that takes place is to check that there's media there and the edges.
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It is not hypothesis. ALL canvas shrinks along the long dimension.
The "hypothesis" is not that it shrinks along the length of the media. We all agree on that, apparently. The hypothesis put forward was that the ink drying causes the canvas to shrink. That creates a problem for the hypothesis in that you then have to somehow explain why ink drying would cause it to shrink in one dimension, but not the other. It was further hypothesized that the weave of the canvas allowed it to shrink in one dimension and not the other in order to make the first part of the hypothesis work.
I think that if you look at the elastic strength of the canvas material, compare that to the forces that could be exerted by the thin layer of ink on the surface of the canvas, to the forces that are exerted by the back tension, we're talking about orders of magnitude in difference. Sorry I can't quantify any of these forces.
I supposed one could design an experiment to test this by printing a "nearly" blank image (e.g. a single thin line) with cut lines. If the nearly ink-less test image is shortened, then it at least disproves that it is the ink shrinking that causes the distortion. At that point, someone would have to come up with some other forces acting on the media to create the distortion. We know there is back tension.
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We have been reasonably happy with Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte, which presented almost no production problems, produced very acceptable and consistent images, but had to be sent out to be varnished (since rolling hasn't worked reliably and we're not in a position to set up a spray booth). BC Crystalline satin not being available, that left Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin as our only alternative.
We have spent at least 48 of the last 24 hours struggling with Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin on our 9900. Here are some of our observations:
1 -- Head strikes and edge curling seem to come with the territory with this canvas. We have set roll margins to 35mm(top)/15mm(bottom), platen gap to "WIDEST", paper thickness to 6. We're still getting head strikes on the left side in the first few inches of every print and we're also losing considerable detail (as reported by garyclow).
2 -- Once printed and out of the printer, this canvas rolls itself up from side to side, though it doesn't seem to expand or shrink in this direction.
Longitudinal stretching appears to vary with many of the other settings. We plan to compensate in Photoshop once the other settings are nailed down.
3 -- Color and saturation are out of whack. We've set color density at -10 and are using the latest Epson profile (Epson_SP7900_9900_Exhibition_Canvas_Satin_PK_v1.icc).
[We had hoped to use ImagePrint as well as the standard Epson driver and profile, but Colorbyte/Imageprint, despite tests with several samples, has been unable to obtain results consistent enough to produce a profile, so none is available.]
Has anyone been able to build, buy, or find any alternative profile for this medium?
4 -- We have yet to receive a shipment of any Epson canvas in which at least half the rolls did not have to be replaced. The problem here is Epson's packaging, which just isn't up to the job of protecting rolls in transit.
Many useful suggestions have already been presented in this thread. We'd be grateful for any others.
Thanks,
Dave.
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Has anyone been able to build, buy, or find any alternative profile for this medium?
I wasn't able to get a profile on Exh Canvas Gloss at all, for reasons stated in another post.
However, the profiles for BC Crystalline I recently created for my 8300 are reasonably good when applied to ECG, and I believe the BC downloadable Crystalline profiles for the 9900 might be useful for you.
Nice canvas, goofy surface. Please Epson, smoother. Had zero head swipes on the 8300 with highest head height and strongest vacuum and only a tiny amount of edge swiping. But I have only used 1, 24 inch roll that wasn't out of its sleeve very long.
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... Colorbyte/Imageprint, despite tests with several samples, has been unable to obtain results consistent enough to produce a profile ...
To clarify, Colorbyte/Imageprint explained that printed patches were not uniform or repeatable enough to support development of a profile for Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin.
Dave.
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To clarify, Colorbyte/Imageprint explained that printed patches were not uniform or repeatable enough to support development of a profile for Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin.
Sounds like BS to me (caused I had no issues building profiles for this material). I like the guys at IP a lot but when it comes to profiles and color management, well there are some odd thinking there IMHO. How about printing a target multiple times, multiple rotations and averaging the data (if even necessary, easy to test and analyze)? Maybe too much work. But these materials can absolutely be profiled.
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Well they must be using an i1Pro, because those were the kinds of error messages I was getting, too much delta between identical patches in different locations. It wasn't the quality of printing, it was the surface highlights.
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Experience with 9900. Update since last week:
1 -- Head strikes and edge curling seem to come with the territory with this canvas. ...
Head strikes continue, but much less severe or frequent since switching to second and third lots of paper. Epson is replacing the first rolls, all of which had a reverse curl, resulting in frequent head strikes and rubbing.
2 -- ...Longitudinal stretching appears to vary with many of the other settings. We plan to compensate in Photoshop once the other settings are nailed down.
No rhyme or reason to stretching -- as it turned out, Apple Software Update had down-dated the driver to 8.66, but re-updating to 8.68 made no difference. Still testing.
3 -- Color and saturation are out of whack. ...[We had hoped to use ImagePrint as well as the standard Epson driver and profile, but Colorbyte/Imageprint, despite tests with several samples, has been unable to obtain results consistent enough to produce a profile, so none is available.]...
We're working on new profiles, although now reasonably happy with Epson's. We're getting as good results as we were with Exhibition Canvas Matte, but still have no profile for ImagePrint. Thanks to Andrew Rodney for looking at what we have and to bill t. for his suggestions.
4 -- We have yet to receive a shipment of any Epson canvas in which at least half the rolls did not have to be replaced. The problem here is Epson's packaging, which just isn't up to the job of protecting rolls in transit.
This has been a continuing problem: more than 75% of rolls have arrived in damaged boxes -- in most cases the "protective" plastic end caps have been shattered.
Are others having similar problems with Epson packaging and deliveries?
Dave.
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The link will take you to the Media section of the site, click on the Fine Art tab and scroll down to Exhibition Canvas Matte to locate the pdf. There is also a video I did on how to stretch canvas that may be helpful.
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/MediaDetailsAll.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager, Professional Imaging
Epson America, Inc.
My apologies if this question is redundant. What profile and settings are recommended for my elderly Epson 4800 and Epson Exhibition Canvas Gloss?
On the Epson profile website I see matte and satin recommendations for the 4880, but no gloss. I see matte, satin and gloss for the 4900, but no 4800. Perhaps its some version of the preceding two variations but I'd rather know a little more accurately before experimenting with expensive ink and paper.
Any help would be VERY much appreciated.
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Dano, for those of us outside the US (South Africa in my case) the available canvas is Premium Canvas Satin or Matte. Do you by chance have similar recommendations for these products? I cannot for the life of me find the specs for the P800? Many thanks in anticipation...!!!
Nick
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Dano hasn't posted on this site for probably 5 years.
If you are buying canvas from Epson, then perhaps call your local Epson office?