Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: Schewe on January 25, 2012, 08:45:49 pm
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Once again Mike, Chris and I will be working on the upcoming Lightroom 4 video tutorials...so since we received (and incorporated) useful feedback from the LuLa community, I though I would post the same question about what people would want to see in the new video...
Obviously, we'll be covering some of the same stuff again–no way around that. And we'll be covering the new features as well. But it would still be useful to find out what other people may think needs to be covered and why.
The other thing is that as it stands, we're planning on a serial release not unlike the C2PS since from the time we shoot till when Chris can get it all edited can't happen overnight. Aside from the years end discount and the servers barfing I though things worked out pretty well (from what I could see). But I think there is still room for improvement.
So, assuming you've seen previous version of our LR tuts, what else would you like to see and learn?
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Jeff...
Having watched the LR 3 videos, I, personally, would like the focus...and the release schedule...to be aimed primarily at the changes, new functions, and areas that need insight different from what was covered in the LR 3 videos.
John
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Having watched the LR 3 videos, I, personally, would like the focus...and the release schedule...to be aimed primarily at the changes, new functions, and areas that need insight different from what was covered in the LR 3 videos.
Useful feedback, thanks. I think Chris is expecting to do something along the line of flagging content that is "New for LR4". For some things like Soft proofing, that's easy. For other things, it's not so obvious.
For example, in the past we covered Collections, but now with LR4 and the saved creations, Collection have been elevated in importance. So, we'll prolly cover collections in greater depth now because of the elevated importance. This is a case where you may think you know what you need to know but there may indeed be new perspective and techniques...
It's always a tossup...we have to shoot and edit the video as though we're talking to somebody new to LR while trying to get existing users up to speed with the new stuff while making it easier to figure out what and where the new stuff is. Any suggestions on how to figure that out is welcome...
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Obviously soft proofing is a big one.
Another good idea I think would be a short segment on optimizing lightroom for best performance. I shoot with a pentax 645d and found loading between images to be slow with a 2011 Mac pro 6 core with 24gigs of ram. I now have lightroom set to generate large image previews and that helps alot. But maybe go through optimizing your catalog, cache sizes, mutiple cpu support, ram usage, exporting to take advantage of multiple cpu's, ssd's
Another big one for me would be printing. Most of my printing is done with Imageprint, but I like the idea of using lightroom. Maybe go through printing on rolls, laying out multiple pictures to print, cut marks, etc. I personally have not messed with printing much in lightroom other than the occasional test prints.
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Hi Jeff,
I think what would be most welcome would be to organize the content in more digestible separate "modules". I have both the Lr3 tut and C2P2S and frankly, I can't find the time to work through it all (not a bad thing to complain about, really!).
For example, off the top of my head:
- Intro/Overview - what's new - demo sample wf's for different output destinations (print, web, book etc.)
- Library & Develop
- Soft Proof & Print
- Slide show & Web
- Books
- Video
- Map
Offer each module individually for purchase, so, for example I may start with Library/Develop and purchase Books or Video at a later date. Offer a bundle discounted price for the entire set.
Ok, that wasn't so much new features (well, not at all!) but my 2 cents on improving the product.
What I'd be most interested in seeing are the perspectives and techniques you mentioned in your last post - putting things together that I may not be otherwise aware that lead to those "aha!" moments. For example (and I have no idea just now if this is possible), can you use geo-tags (location data) in watermarks? Is this data available in Books?. I've just started working with Lr4 beta so I don't have specific areas yet that aren't likely obvious (such as PV2012, soft proof, etc.).
Stephen
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Jeff, thanks!
Obviously real attention to the basic adjustments in the develop module. Just when your tutorial on 3 had me really understanding it, I'm now back to square 1 w/ 4b. I've appreciated your explanation in the forum here, but a robust tutorial w/ examples "live" in the video is something I'm really anxious to have. If it can be "sooner rather than later" in the shooting and release, so much the better. I'm probably not alone (at least I hope not :-). )
Soft proofing is another area where there may be many folk like me who to date have not availed ourselves of this valuable tool due to the mystery of it in PS, and our primary use of LR for printing. All of this to say it would be good if the tutorial assumes pretty much complete ignorance of the subject rather than familiarity with it in PS.
Thanks again. I really appreciate what you and Michael contribute to my understanding, and how the two of you equal more than the sum of your knowledge through the good humor and "iron striking iron" give and take.
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Hi Jeff,
One thing I'd like to see is a comparison of the sliders between LR3 and LR4; how best to make the transition when one has some habits that work well in LR3. For example, how do I best simulate in LR4 the effect of the Fill Light slider from LR3? And the same for the other sliders that are different in the Develop module.
I'm really looking forward to the new videos.
Eric
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Hi Jeff,
Great to have a new video coming.
Obviously important is the new implementation of develop as are the new modules. It would be interesting to see how to do sharpening and color management for blurb books.
As for soft proofing you showed different techniques, along the necessary curve tweaks, in both camera to print (screen) tutorials. In the first video you showed a useful black punch method to achieve dead black shadows, in the last one there was the 50% gray sculpting/color adjustment layer. It would be interesting to see how these adjustments translate to LR4 soft proofing.
On an entertainment note, add up all the stripes of Mike's shirts contest ;D and a few outtakes at the end.
Looking forward to the video and good luck to Chris putting it all toghether.
Jaap
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Hi Michael, hi Jeff,
spoken for me, what I would like to see are workflow examples which in my case means showing everything from scratch ( import to print / export). Give us such a few of them with different photos and e plain why you did the changes.
Despite of this, the workflow on journeys with a 'traveling' laptop and aMac / PC at home could be important to many of us.
Many thanks for asking and good luck !
Robert
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Hi Jeff,
As a LuLa and Lightroom newbie, I'd love to have a more comprehensive overview of the software, assuming very little knowledge. I am currently an Aperture 3 user with plans to convert to Lightroom 4, and to apply all of the wonderful things I've been learning in C2P&S and Where the ?@#$ are My Pictures?
I understand you may not be able to cover everything, and if you must skip something basic that was already covered in your LR3 videos, could you at least bundle the LR3 and LR4 videos together, or offer a substantial discount to the LR3 set when the LR4 is purchased?
Finally, I'd like to pass on some gratitude for everything I've learned from you and Michael in C2P&S. For the last 18 years I've been a photographer, for the last 11 years I've been shooting digital, and only now am I learning about color management, printing and all the other forms of output. This has opened a new and exciting chapter in my photography!
Dan
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Offer each module individually for purchase, so, for example I may start with Library/Develop and purchase Books or Video at a later date. Offer a bundle discounted price for the entire set.
Interesting...but above my pay grade...
To a certain degree, breaking down the segments to bitable segments becomes an exercise in, well, futility...
It's really Chris' ability to edit things down to "chunks" that determines what ends up as sections...but I honestly think that it's LR's overall ability to provide an optimal workflow that's critical to grasp...I'm not sure a module by module is the solution...
I understand that previous user's of LR don't want to wade through a lot of previous version's usability. While I think we can work towards an efficiency LR4's functionality, inevitability, there's gonna be a degree of "start from scratch" tutorial...
An example of this is the fact that Mike didn't like PV 2012 much until I explained that A) the order wasn't gonna change and B) the order of the Basic panel did actually suggest the best way of adjusting an image...
Ya gotta remember that at the end, it's Thomas Knoll that decides the ultimate order of the image adjustments...and TK knows a bit about raw image processing.
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Hey Jeff,
Now that the soft proofing cat is out of the bag, I think it deserves a real drill-down.
I'd like to see multiple different kind of images maybe from different cameras to be proofed for print. Images that work with perceptual and images that work with relative colorimetric.
And yes, I'd also like to see the "new features" to come out first.
Janne
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First of all, thanks Jeff for opening up the dialogue about the upcoming videos.
Obviously there are many of us with images we are quite happy with from LR3 so there seems to be the need for help with the transition of those images from LR3 to LR4. One could leave them as "Process 2010", but I would imagine many would like to explore the options available with "Process 2012" and LR4 adjustments. The problem is time: we have "finished" images from LR3 and to start from scratch in re-processing images going forward with LR4 could be very time-consuming. I think that's why some posters like Eric and myself are looking for some guidance on making that transition in an efficient way. If you have any tricks (practically or conceptually) up your short colourful sleeves, they would be welcome.
Would you, Michael and Chris consider offering a bi-level release of videos: one full set for newbies to LR with LR4 and one "focus-set" for those of us neck-deep in LR3 and making the transition to LR4? I realize that it's easier said than done with how integrated image management and processing is through all the modules. No doubt you will have vids on the major changes: Collections/Saved Creations, Develop Adjustments, Books, Maps, Soft Proofing, etc.but I'd rather not sit through hours of video about all the other stuff carried forward from LR3 for just a few kernels of changes in LR4 and how best to adopt them into our workflows.
Lastly, I would like to see an exploration (drill down) of the differences in using Basic adjustments and Tone Curve adjustments. This is a question I often get as the two appear similar enough yet have differences. Mostly, it is Photoshoppers making the transition to LR that want to jump to the more familiar Tone Curve adjustments before working through Basic adjustments. Why should they not jump to TC first? Is there anything "wrong" with that workflow in that there may be nuances they are missing in Basic? I know there are, and try to explain the differences, but it may be a common enough question/problem/issue that it could be addressed in the vids.
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Obviously there are many of us with images we are quite happy with from LR3 so there seems to be the need for help with the transition of those image from LR3 to LR4. Once could leave them as "Process 2010", but I would imagine many would like to explore the options available with "Process 2012" and LR4 adjustments. The problem is time: we have "finished" images from LR3 and to start from scratch in re-processing images going forward with LR4 could be very time-consuming. I think that's why some posters like Eric and myself are looking for some guidance on making that transition in an efficient way. If you have any tricks (practically or conceptually) up your short colourful sleeves, they would be welcome.
+1 for this. I'm not too concerned about redundancy in the presentation or going over stuff that I already know how to do because I can always hit the fast forward button. I think it will be really difficult for the LuLa production crew (Michael, Jeff, & Chris) to come up with a pick and choose module approach and get it done in a timely manner for those of us waiting for the tutorial.
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Chris has arrived in San Miguel and we're starting to set up. Jeff arrives Saturday, and we begin production on Sunday. We have a seven day shooting schedule.
We're going to take everyone's input into account, but the amount of material we have to cover is huge, and this will mean a major editing job for Chris over the coming months. (The shoot has four live cameras and two screen captures, so effectively it's a six camera shoot, with three audio capture channels as well.) Compared to the simple screen captures that most other folks do for tutorials it's a huge undertaking.
In the end though the massive support that you guys give us makes it all worthwhile.
Michael
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One of the most valuable features of both the LR3 and C2PS tutorials was the non-obvious tricks you offered -- things I doubt I ever would have figured out myself, such as making an image punchier in LR3 by cranking up the blacks to the point of clipping and then opening up the shadows with the fill light adjustment. Problem is, by the end of each series, I'd forgotten some of the details, and some of the tricks altogether, because of the bit rot that afflicts my aging brain. And searching for a specific, half-remembered, one-minute chuck of video, even if you can make a good guess about which segment it came in, is non-trivial. So how about an extra segment at the end of the series summarizing the cleverest gimmicks you've described in the previous episodes. Wouldn't even have to be fresh video: just clips with a little narration to provide context.
Chris
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Hi Michael, Jeff, Chris
All the thought and sheer effort you guys have put into your tutorials over the years has been invaluable. I certainly wouldn't mind going over material previously covered - IMHO it's not a waste of the modest sum you charge and I can always find something new that I'd either missed or forgotten... or press the fast forward button as someone suggested.
If I understood Jeff's idea correctly, I like that there should be a strong holistic element throughout the treatment of the various components. Perhaps some sort of operational framework that explains why we would (should?) do 'things' in a particular manner - perhaps including Thomas Knoll's thinking/rationale as part of the explanation.
Also, if there's any aspect of C2PS that you feel was incomplete, or that you'd do differently if you had the chance, then maybe it could provide an interesting overlay/context to using LR4.
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Also, if there's any aspect of C2PS that you feel was incomplete, or that you'd do differently if you had the chance, then maybe it could provide an interesting overlay/context to using LR4.
I don't think there was anything incomplete in C2PS other than the fact we specifically didn't do any drill down in Lightroom that didn't have a direct impact ultimately on printing and output–and while we knew soft proofing was coming to LR4, we of course could not say anything about it :~)
The only main difference in my printing workflow now with LR4 is that I don't have to go into Photoshop to soft proof. However, I still have to go into Photoshop for the functionality that only Photoshop can offer. Substantial retouching, compositing, accurate selections and things like sculpting are examples of functionality that LR4 still can't do.
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2 video package options would be really nice.
A complete Lightroom 4 video covering everything.
And as mentioned above a "Whats new in Lightroom 4"
The latter may intice many of your past customers that already have the first video set. (Like myself)
The "whats new" set would be shorter in time/content which means quicker to market.Then integrate those "whats new"videos where they belong in the complete set.
It's not about the money,really. It's more about time and if I want to trudge through another 35 video purchase to watch 5.
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I have been using Lightroom since the version 1 beta release. My experience with the LR4 beta is more troublesome than any other version in figuring out a workflow as I find that I am struggling to get to a point where I can comfortably edit an image so that it is similar if not better than what I can get in LR3. I have no doubt it can be done and that I am missing something so this is what I would like to see in the LR4 tutorial. For example, as a prior post mentioned, the LR 3 tutorial stepped viewers through adjusting the blacks to a point just beyond clipping and then using fill to create a richness in the shadows. I am having trouble figuring out how to get to that point or better in the LR4 beta. And also with soft-proofing, it would be marvelous for those of us who have followed the LuLa tutorials on soft-proofing in Photoshop and practice the technique to see/learn how this would be achieved in the LR4 soft-proof.
I have shared many cups of coffee with Mike and Jeff while sitting with my laptop at the kitchen table and look forward to sharing more in the next round of tutorials. Your tutorials are second to none.
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2 video package options would be really nice.
A complete Lightroom 4 video covering everything.
And as mentioned above a "Whats new in Lightroom 4"
The latter may intice many of your past customers that already have the first video set. (Like myself)
The "whats new" set would be shorter in time/content which means quicker to market.Then integrate those "whats new"videos where they belong in the complete set.
It's not about the money,really. It's more about time and if I want to trudge through another 35 video purchase to watch 5.
Although I have the previous Lightroom tutorials, I wouldn't mind familiarizing myself with what is new as well as having the pleasure of a refresher walk through of the program's basic functionalities. Good luck
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My experience with the LR4 beta is more troublesome than any other version in figuring out a workflow as I find that I am struggling to get to a point where I can comfortably edit an image so that it is similar if not better than what I can get in LR3.
So...the biggest problem you are probably having is trying to take PV 2010 experience and knowledge and trying to apply that to PV 2012. That's the disconnect...the new controls are different...REALLY different. So, you would be better off taking to PV 2012 controls as a whole new thing...look carefully at the order from top to bottom...there's a reason why they are in the order they are in. It's because Thomas Knoll thought the current order is the optimal order.
Many users have not learned how to use Contrast after Exposure but that is the best way to work. Once you get the base level tone adjustment (using Exposure and Contrast) then Highlights and Shadows to control the 3/4 and 1/4 tones. Finally, if needed (generally not needed) Whites and Blacks. And...if push comes to shove you can always pop over to the Curves control with either Parametric or Point Curve editors...
Look, Mike was somewhat in the same camp as you (and many users) until he gave up the expectations that PV 2012 was somehow related to PV 2010. They aren't...
All of the PV 2012 Basic controls are image adaptive which means that the numbers you use are adjusted based on your image. That can be useful but it can also be disconcerting till to adapt to the new behaviors.
We'll cover that in depth in the new vids...
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Jeff- Steve Jobs knew what I needed before I did. I'm comfortable with you and Michael going with your instincts regarding LR4. Seeing that the LR update curve is usually @ 18 months, maybe you guys could leave some open segments at the end of the production and then revisit segments that YOU think need a little more explanation based on viewer comments after the video is released. That way you two could spend a day having a little more wine, wear a few more shirts (in your case) and have the benefit of hindsight. Just thinking.
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So...the biggest problem you are probably having is trying to take PV 2010 experience and knowledge and trying to apply that to PV 2012. That's the disconnect...the new controls are different...REALLY different. So, you would be better off taking to PV 2012 controls as a whole new thing...look carefully at the order from top to bottom...there's a reason why they are in the order they are in. It's because Thomas Knoll thought the current order is the optimal order.
Many users have not learned how to use Contrast after Exposure but that is the best way to work. Once you get the base level tone adjustment (using Exposure and Contrast) then Highlights and Shadows to control the 3/4 and 1/4 tones. Finally, if needed (generally not needed) Whites and Blacks. And...if push comes to shove you can always pop over to the Curves control with either Parametric or Point Curve editors...
Look, Mike was somewhat in the same camp as you (and many users) until he gave up the expectations that PV 2012 was somehow related to PV 2010. They aren't...
All of the PV 2012 Basic controls are image adaptive which means that the numbers you use are adjusted based on your image. That can be useful but it can also be disconcerting till to adapt to the new behaviors.
We'll cover that in depth in the new vids...
Thanks, Jeff. That's exactly where I am and why I look forward to you and Michael "holding my hand" as I get the hang of PV 2012.
I'm trying starting from scratch (raw) with copies of a few images that I liked the results in LR3, where I seldom touched the Contrast slider. I mumble to myself as I go, "Jeff says top to bottom, Jeff says top to bottom,..."
With luck, by the time I see the vidoes, I'll have gotten comfortable with the new order (hard for an old dog like me, but nothing like the pain of converting from film to digital).
Eric
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Many users have not learned how to use Contrast after Exposure but that is the best way to work. Once you get the base level tone adjustment (using Exposure and Contrast) then Highlights and Shadows to control the 3/4 and 1/4 tones. Finally, if needed (generally not needed) Whites and Blacks. And...if push comes to shove you can always pop over to the Curves control with either Parametric or Point Curve editors...
All of the PV 2012 Basic controls are image adaptive which means that the numbers you use are adjusted based on your image. That can be useful but it can also be disconcerting till to adapt to the new behaviors.
Excellent explanation Jeff (of course), Develop tone control in a nut-shell, thanks.
Of course videos explaining the new features are a must, but a biggie for me would be Soft-proofing, particularly how it can be used to it's fullest benefit once the full release is out and how to handle OOG areas.
Dave
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I'd really like to see how far you can go with the brush tool in terms of creative sharpening and the technique you call sculpting in the c2ps videos.
Aside from that what would be really cool was a bonus material section with a few bloopers, funny mistakes and such that happened during the recording. ;D ;D
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Christoph
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Hello Jeff,
I've used lightroom since version 1, and until I purchased the Lula guide to version 3 I had never watched a tutorial. I did purchase Martin Evening's book on Lightroom 2 although by the time I did most of the information I had learned first hand. I EXPECTED that to be much the same with the Lula tutorial. I primarily bought it because I found watching the camera to print and screen you guys did to be pretty informative and also entertaing. Having said that.. I did pick up a few things about Lightroom that I didn't realize before.
As such.. I'd love to see all the time you can muster and or it requires regarding shortcuts and factoids not widely known about lightroom. This could be as simple as shortcuts or as involved as the mechanics behind its different functions. For instance I didn't know, and know of no way I could have known.. that localized adjustments actually pick up what you set in the detail panel (i.e. sharpening). I've never read or heard that anywhere other than the lula 3 tutorial. Knowing things like that really come in useful.
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As such.. I'd love to see all the time you can muster and or it requires regarding shortcuts and factoids not widely known about lightroom.
Thanks for the feedback...in exchange I've give you a freebie...As you know, clicking Auto goes through all of the Basic tone adjustments and sets them. But, did you know that you can Shift/Double Click On the adjustment name to auto set just that one control? That gives you the ability to cherry pick which controls you want to set by Auto. Oh, and everybody know double clicking on the name sets it back to default...and yes, it'll be in the video.
:~)
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Would love to see a " industrial strength " drill down on what you consider to be the best practices from starting a catalog to final export. As well as any useful nuggets of information that you would like to share.
Have very much enjoyed your past vids!
Really looking forward to this one.
Gerry
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Like many others, I would appreciate a detailed drilling down into the use of the basic, tone curve and HSL/color/Bw modules, based on examples. I am teaching myself to follow your and TK's advice to take the adjustments in order, but finding some resistance, as I tend to see something that needs fixing in an image and want to go directly to the relevant controls. To help me resist this temptation (something I generally don't do well) I would value an account of the rationale for the order as TK explains it. Also is it important to be meticulous in following the order - eg, I find myself wanting to go Highlights Whites Blacks Shadows rather than the set order and need to be told why this is a bad idea if indeed it is. I would also appreciate your covering how to go back to earlier controls in the order, as I often find I want to do - eg sometimes readjusting the white balance or exposure after doing everything else - is this a bad idea?
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Of course videos explaining the new features are a must, but a biggie for me would be Soft-proofing, particularly how it can be used to it's fullest benefit once the full release is out and how to handle OOG areas.
That’s easy, let the profile control this. The OOG overlays are kind of useful educationally, it is useful to see what colors you might be visually trying to edit that are outside the display gamut (once the bugs are fixed). But the idea of manually screwing with OOG overlay to make it disappear isn’t effective as far as my testing shows. It wasn’t effective in Photoshop either. There is a video on my site that illustrates the differences in doing this manually instead of just letting a profile handle this process.
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Although not dealing with LR4 new features, I'd like to see a segment devoted to scanned film (B&W-Color) files and what LR can bring to the table. Actually, you all could probably get together again for another new tutorial on archiving and processing film files. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there with scores of neglected negatives.
Really appreciate all you guys do!
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So...the biggest problem you are probably having is trying to take PV 2010 experience and knowledge and trying to apply that to PV 2012. That's the disconnect...
All of the PV 2012 Basic controls are image adaptive which means that the numbers you use are adjusted based on your image. That can be useful but it can also be disconcerting till to adapt to the new behaviors.
We'll cover that in depth in the new vids...
An in-depth look at the new “Process Version 2012 Workflow” and a discussion about the adaptive controls.
Top-Down:
You and Adobe both advocate working the Basic “Tone” sliders from top to bottom - this gets you to the “Blacks” slider last.
If you start with “Exposure” then “Contrast”, when do you find the black point? [The old bromide - “Minimum exposure for maximum black” keeps ringing in my ears.] If you adjust your “Blacks” slider later in the adjustments, it will change the “Black Point” and therefore the overall contrast. You will then need to readdress the “Contrast” slider - correct?
My LR workflow has been to first click “Auto” (letting LR find the Black and White points) then adjust the other sliders. In LR4, I click “Auto”, then have to manually set “Black Point”** then adjust the others sliders from Top-Down. What do you think of this workflow for PV2012?
**I am aware of the “Known Issue” of LR4 beta that “The Auto Tone algorithm is still a work in progress. In some instances, Auto Tone in PV2010 will produce better results than Auto Tone in PV2012”. Currently, when I click “Auto”, only the “Exposure” slider is affected. Have you found this? I need to find my “Black point” manually with the “Blacks” slider while holding the “Alt” key. (I assume this will be fixed in the final version.)
Histogram Areas Affected by sliders:
I’ve noticed that some sliders of PV2012 affect the same areas on the Histogram as the PV2010 sliders. (I have posted some screen grabs of the 6 sliders on my blog. If you want to take a look - Click here http://bobd.tv/?p=192) I am aware that LR4 has adaptive Highlight and Shadows controls so affecting those areas of the Histogram could produce different results depending on the image. However, are the “Whites” vs. “Recovery” and the “Blacks” sliders comparable in LR4 & LR3?
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It's really Chris' ability to edit things down to "chunks" that determines what ends up as sections...but I honestly think that it's LR's overall ability to provide an optimal workflow that's critical to grasp...I'm not sure a module by module is the solution...
Formatting of the Videos:
As far as how to address the topics and “drill-down” of the video "chunks", your (Chris’) approach of using copious “chapters” in your LR3 movies along with the supplied Table of Contents worked just fine. (although a few videos were void of any chapters!)
Maybe a more robust TOC that contains all the chapters included in each video is all that is needed. This would allow us to select the desired video, choose the video "chunk of choice", then use the movie’s “pull-down” list of “chapters” to jump to that specific content. (If you do this you might consider that a short video of "how to navigate" the videos tutorials may be helpful)
Enjoy the process!
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Formatting of the Videos:
Maybe a more robust TOC that contains all the chapters included in each video is all that is needed. This would allow us to select the desired video, choose the video "chunk of choice", then use the movie’s “pull-down” list of “chapters” to jump to that specific content.
Unless I misunderstand you, the LR3 Table of Contents (http://media.luminous-landscape.com/video/tutorials/lr3/lr3-toc_09.pdf) does already exactly what you describe - you do have to scroll down past the first two pages... :)
I should add that suggestions on the ToC are most welcome
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Unless I misunderstand you, the LR3 Table of Contents (http://media.luminous-landscape.com/video/tutorials/lr3/lr3-toc_09.pdf) does already exactly what you describe - you do have to scroll down past the first two pages... :)
I should add that suggestions on the ToC are most welcome
Chris, I told you it was a good idea ::) !!!
I was aware of the TOC and used it extensively. BTW, thanks for your comprehensive work.
I mentioned it because it seemed by the comments people were making that they where unaware of the TOC tool. That is why I mentioned a short video or including the navigation in the intro video would be helpful. I know several people personally that were unaware of its existence.
Will look forward to the new LR4 series.
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Yes, the TOC's for the videos are pure gold!
Eric
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I mentioned it because it seemed by the comments people were making that they where unaware of the TOC tool. That is why I mentioned a short video or including the navigation in the intro video would be helpful. I know several people personally that were unaware of its existence.
Yes, a short video to reinforce the Read Me is a good idea. I'll do that. Thanks for the suggestion.
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In addition to the basics I would like to see in depth methods of sharpening and noise reduction. I do not have the LR3 videos, but I will most likely buy the LR4 version and sharpening is something I want to do better, I have read Jeff's book but would really like to see some good tips and workflow for using the sharpening tools. Especially for the different phases of sharpening.
Alan
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So...the biggest problem you are probably having is trying to take PV 2010 experience and knowledge and trying to apply that to PV 2012. That's the disconnect...the new controls are different...REALLY different. So, you would be better off taking to PV 2012 controls as a whole new thing...look carefully at the order from top to bottom...there's a reason why they are in the order they are in. It's because Thomas Knoll thought the current order is the optimal order.
Many users have not learned how to use Contrast after Exposure but that is the best way to work. Once you get the base level tone adjustment (using Exposure and Contrast) then Highlights and Shadows to control the 3/4 and 1/4 tones. Finally, if needed (generally not needed) Whites and Blacks. And...if push comes to shove you can always pop over to the Curves control with either Parametric or Point Curve editors...
I realized very quickly that this is a horse of a different color. From what I can remember ( and I am not so sure about the order of things) the changes from LR1 to LR2 were additive; you had the same sliders and then some new ones with added functionality. Same thing in going from LR2 to LR3 and some where along the way they added the local adjustments. LR4 will take some getting used to and your pointers are much appreciated[/quote]
Look, Mike was somewhat in the same camp as you (and many users) until he gave up the expectations that PV 2012 was somehow related to PV 2010. They aren't...
At least I am in good company
Thanks for the quoted suggestions above re: workflow. I will give it a try. Interestingly, I notice by accident that using the auto button rendered a very nice starting point. I never used the auto button in the basic develop panel in the past. Left me wandering if they did something to these algorithms to make auto adjustments more effective.
Enjoy the subtropical heat of Mexico. I look forward to the videos.
Regards,
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Oh boy! I am so looking forward to yet another shirt marathon.
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That’s easy, let the profile control this. The OOG overlays are kind of useful educationally, it is useful to see what colors you might be visually trying to edit that are outside the display gamut (once the bugs are fixed). But the idea of manually screwing with OOG overlay to make it disappear isn’t effective as far as my testing shows. It wasn’t effective in Photoshop either. There is a video on my site that illustrates the differences in doing this manually instead of just letting a profile handle this process.
Thanks Andrew, currently I don't bother with the gamut overlay in PS, so this again is just there as an indication. I had not seen your second video on this subject which answers in detail my very question.
Dave
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I would like to see more depth on the B&W capabilities. Similar to what Michael did in C2PS, but maybe even two examples!
Although my testing has been minimal, there seems to be a big improvement in how far I can push a B&W conversion using the color sliders. Halos are essentially gone, even trees / sky interfaces when going almost to an IR effect.
Very nice.
Dave
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I'd love one example of how to combine catalogues on more than one hard drive into one catalogue.
If someone on the forum has already explained this, lead me to it please.
I know you have already started shooting.
I have no problem going through the whole thing again, even though I have seen your two previous videos. I like the refresher.
Jeff, have you thought about letting some company sponsor your shirt? Sort of like race car drivers do?
Too late as you have already started shooting.
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I would like to see more depth on the B&W capabilities.
Dave
+1 to this request.
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I agree-more Black and White tutorials would be great.
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Hi Jeff,
One thing that you may well be tempted to give only passing mention to is the new Book module.
Now the Web module has usually been given fairly short shrift, and I think with good reason. The output, whilst perfectly respectable is nevertheless very basic, and a decent wordpress skin can knock the socks off of what LR will easily produce. Also Adobe have of course some very powerful web tools and products.
By contrast I think Blurb is pretty much at the top of the heap of the major on-demand book producers. Photo books have a long and distinguished history and I am incredibly excited over the Book module. I would love for you guys to actually go into some real depth here. It will likely be almost as important as the Print module for some of us.
Regards,
Craig Arnold
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One thing that you may well be tempted to give only passing mention to is the new Book module.
Rest assured that we covered both Book and Map extensively...(Web still got a pretty basic simple coverage).
Just to let everybody know, your feedback was very useful. We are officially done with shooting the LR4 tutorial–now it's up to Chris to make it good. At this point I can't really say much about anything because we don't know how the edit will come, but we are probably releasing two separate vids...a more basic one for new users and one for advanced users of previous versions of Lightroom. The feedback we got here helped solidify that breakdown...thanks for all the help!
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...thanks for all the help!
+ 1
- most useful
look for me in about a month+ or so :)
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Rest assured that we covered both Book and Map extensively...(Web still got a pretty basic simple coverage).
Great news! Now if you can just turn Chris's speed dial up to 11. :)
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we are probably releasing two separate vids...a more basic one for new users and one for advanced users of previous versions of Lightroom. The feedback we got here helped solidify that breakdown...thanks for all the help!
Cannot agree more.
It's not a matter of expense, but I'd really love to get just the Lr4 Pro tutorial as being a Lr3 power user.
Another question: did you shoot the tutorial on the Lr4b1 version? Did you have another intermediate release?
Eric Chan clearly told that the beta1 is not stable nor complete as for features the will be part of the final release.
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Another question: did you shoot the tutorial on the Lr4b1 version?
Of course not :~)
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Of course not :~)
Ehehe... 8)
Does it mean that all* the retail version features will be covered on this tutorials?
* apart from time constraints, of course. Not every single menu item!
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All features in the shipping version of LR4 are covered.
Michael
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I have both the LR3 and C2PS series and they are great. They are a great resource, but I find that I want to go back to over again a particular topic, and this is hard for a numbskull like me! Can the next series have a good index or search box, please. I want to go back to check out dealing with converging verticals in LR, but can I remember which tutorial it was in??
Jonathan
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Can the next series have a good index or search box, please. I want to go back to check out dealing with converging verticals in LR, but can I remember which tutorial it was in??
Check the LR3 Table of Contents (http://media.luminous-landscape.com/video/tutorials/lr3/lr3-toc_09.pdf) under Develop 12: Lens Corrections
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Having watched the LR 3 videos, I, personally, would like the focus...and the release schedule...to be aimed primarily at the changes, new functions, and areas that need insight different from what was covered in the LR 3 videos.
(http://www.herfree.com/avatar.php)
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Check the LR3 Table of Contents (http://media.luminous-landscape.com/video/tutorials/lr3/lr3-toc_09.pdf) under Develop 12: Lens Corrections
Hi Chris, do you think we'll be able to have the first video release in time for the Lr4 release?
I'm quite sure I'll be buying the upgrade on day 0. :P
Your tutorials (speaking to you all, everyone for his part) are amazing. ;)
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Hi Chris, do you think we'll be able to have the first video release in time for the Lr4 release?
That's the plan.
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That's the plan.
I will plan to go out photographing for a few days to give the web server time to recover from the initial onslaught.
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I'm also very excited about soft proofing, and one thing that some people (me included) never gave a thought to it, and is Soft Proofing for screen or web. We simply export the JPEG and go with it, not realizing it might not look the way it should. Are you planning on taking a look at this as well ?
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We simply export the JPEG and go with it, not realizing it might not look the way it should.
The sRGB JPEG should look shockingly close and if not, you’re probably not viewing the JPEG in a color managed browser or app.
Soft proofing to an output device (printer), yes, there can be a significant visual difference.
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On this image, LR4 soft proofing shows significant gamut clipping on the orange part of the cloud. I cannot see it on my screen, since is also out of gamut for screen.
Doesn't this mean that Lightroom's JPEG export pluggin will try to guess the colors there, but won't be what the sensor recorded ?
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On this image, LR4 soft proofing shows significant gamut clipping on the orange part of the cloud. I cannot see it on my screen, since is also out of gamut for screen.
Doesn't this mean that Lightroom's JPEG export pluggin will try to guess the colors there, but won't be what the sensor recorded ?
You see an overlay of OOG colors, fine. You can’t see the colors as they are out of gamut for your display which kind of answers your question. If you convert to sRGB, a gamut that is presumably closer to the gamut of your display, I suspect the ‘before and after’ will look nearly identical. That begs the question, what are you supposed to do with the OOG overlay? You are going to clip those colors converting to sRGB, there is no way around that. You can’t see the OOG colors on your display. You can only see the overlay. That is somewhat educational, what do you now do?
This video might help (at least in providing what not to do with OOG colors on a manual basis) http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov
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Got it. Thanks for the video. Will give a look at it tonight at home.
One question, if you are seeing an overlay for the OOG colors, can't you tweak the saturation until the overlay vanishes? Maybe with local brushes or something like that. I mean, won't that be better to get a smoother gradation, or the clipping will get better results than me?
You see an overlay of OOG colors, fine. You can’t see the colors as they are out of gamut for your display which kind of answers your question. If you convert to sRGB, a gamut that is presumably closer to the gamut of your display, I suspect the ‘before and after’ will look nearly identical. That begs the question, what are you supposed to do with the OOG overlay? You are going to clip those colors converting to sRGB, there is no way around that. You can’t see the OOG colors on your display. You can only see the overlay. That is somewhat educational, what do you now do?
This video might help (at least in providing what not to do with OOG colors on a manual basis) http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov
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One question, if you are seeing an overlay for the OOG colors, can't you tweak the saturation until the overlay vanishes?
Yes and as the video illustrates, don’t.
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Got it Andrew. Million thanks!!!
Looking forward for more videos. Is there a part one of your LR Soft Proof video ?
**Never mind: Found it on your website ;D
Yes and as the video illustrates, don’t.
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All features in the shipping version of LR4 are covered.
Michael
Michael,
This is good news but it is kind of concerning to me. How could Adobe honestly/sincerely address the numerous suggestions and deliver a final version in such a short time? Were we a clearing house for major bugs but not feature requests or tweaks as implied?
Will look forward to the videos. Thank you all for your efforts to move us forward.
Bob
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The user interface for a product has to be frozen quite a while before bug fixes are completed. Otherwise the process would never end.
Feature requests and other UI changes are made in dot releases during the life of the product.
Michael
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Guess I am bit late here. Not sure if my suggestion would fit into this or not, but here it goes.
I use LR to the big stuff before going into photoshop and I print from photoshop mainly because I do selective sharpening for output. If possible, how I can do selective sharpening in LR and print?
Andrew
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I use LR to the big stuff before going into photoshop and I print from photoshop mainly because I do selective sharpening for output. If possible, how I can do selective sharpening in LR and print?
Exactly what local sharpening? You can use the Adjustment Brush in LR to locally increase/decrease or blur in LR 3/4. And you really, really don't want to be printing from Photoshop, it's old tech...if you MUST go into Photoshop for something, at least save the image back to LR for printing...so much better for a lot of reasons.
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Exactly what local sharpening? You can use the Adjustment Brush in LR to locally increase/decrease or blur in LR 3/4. And you really, really don't want to be printing from Photoshop, it's old tech...if you MUST go into Photoshop for something, at least save the image back to LR for printing...so much better for a lot of reasons.
Hi Jeff.
I selectively sharpen the subject of the image (parts that are in focus). I mainly photograph wildlife and do macro work. I am trying to ween myself off of using PS to print as I am aware of what you stated here and in the tutorials my Michael and yourself. Also still trying to rework my workflow.
Hi, my name is Andrew and I still print from Photoshop.
Andrew
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"I selectively sharpen the subject of the image (parts that are in focus)"
I use the creative sharpeners and masks in Photokit Sharpener to do that. I used to do what you are currently doing but got tired of having to redo it for different size and resolution prints. Now I am back to using Output sharpening as a global tool.
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i've been using capture one pro for a few years and like it very much but i must say, i find lr4 interesting. i am a complete neophyte when it comes to lightroom but i downloaded the beta and have been playing with it a bit - especially the soft proofing capability. i would be very interested if the lula video tutorial on lr4 would illustrate how i can go from capture one pro (after doing lcc and white balance) to lightroom 4 to do soft proofing and then exporting the soft proofed file to disk (while preserving the soft proofing information) in order to print in through imageprint 9.
rh
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Dare I say it. A lot less waffle and a lot more nitty-gritty please.
Jeff
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Dare I say it. A lot less waffle and a lot more nitty-gritty please.
Jeff
Ok... I know there are many who purchase and watch these tutorials just for their educational value (which is excellent BTW).
However, I appreciate a good dose of waffle with maple syrup - it makes the whole thing far more palatable and entertaining. ;D
Tutorials on image processing are 'dry enough' - I for one appreciate the humour and banter a couple of grey beards (I use that term with affection) bring to the table. ;D
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There is something missing from LuLa videos ..........
A warning!
"WARNING: These Videos maybe addictive".
Everytime one is released I feel complelled to add it to my growing collection!
Think it something to do with the shirts ;D
If another LuLa Video Journal is released it also needs a warning on the cover:
"WARNING: this video maybe detrimental to your wealth/kids inheritance"
After watching the Journals with the trips to Antarctica I was hooked.
Last Christmas I did my second trip in 14 months. ;D
Thanks Guys, Keep up the good work .
Craig
www.craigparkerimages.com
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Ok... I know there are many who purchase and watch these tutorials just for their educational value (which is excellent BTW).
However, I appreciate a good dose of waffle with maple syrup - it makes the whole thing far more palatable and entertaining. ;D
Tutorials on image processing are 'dry enough' - I for one appreciate the humour and banter a couple of grey beards (I use that term with affection) bring to the table. ;D
Another vote for more doses of waffle from me (especially with maple syrup).
Eric
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Another vote for more doses of waffle from me (especially with maple syrup).
Rest assured, there's plenty of waffling (called "digressions" by Mike) in the LR4 tuts...but those of you expecting massive shirt changes by me will be disappointed...I went "basic black" which is my standard daytime look (it was in honor of the LR UI don't ya know). However, I will say that our wrap had Tequila involved...(the good stuff, not the rut gut crap usually found in America)...odds are you'll learn something even if you THINK you know LR
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Rest assured, there's plenty of waffling (called "digressions" by Mike) in the LR4 tuts...but those of you expecting massive shirt changes by me will be disappointed...I went "basic black" which is my standard daytime look (it was in honor of the LR UI don't ya know). However, I will say that our wrap had Tequila involved...(the good stuff, not the rut gut crap usually found in America)...odds are you'll learn something even if you THINK you know LR
But isn't there a button that lets us change your "basic black" to middle gray or white? Or better yet, a slider, labeled "shirt", with numbers from 0 to 100 (default = 0). ;)
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But isn't there a button that lets us change your "basic black" to middle gray or white? Or better yet, a slider, labeled "shirt", with numbers from 0 to 100 (default = 0). ;)
Hey, we're at Lr 4 - the slider should be from -100 - 0 - 100 !
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I went "basic black" which is my standard daytime look (it was in honor of the LR UI don't ya know).
No more "Count the shirts" contest?
Oh well, the number is 1! Did I win? :D