Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Satyajit on January 17, 2012, 09:42:24 pm
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I specialise in automotive photography.
50% indoor and 50% outdoor.
Based in India. Printing workflow not the best.
I used to shoot with canon FF for a few years (due to costs ofcourse). Realised I had maxed out the possibilities. Over the past two years moved to MF(leaf aptus 6ii). Loved the medium and produced what I believe is my best two years of work.
Having trained in large format early on I had always itched to shoot on a view camera.
Now having hard earned the means to do so, I have decided to move into view camera(23) and a new MF full frame back.
Been looking around (options for try and buy are non-existent here).
First on offer was cambo 23 with phase one IQ160 with schnieder lenses. Maybe a wrs1000 when I shoot using a motion rig or just an MF body just for that purpose.
Was very interested in the sinar system(f3, 86hf and lenses).
If I am to make my decision on the premise that my industry standards are not good enough, then even the 35 ff would do.
But I want to invest in this firstly to full fill my interest in large format photography and secondly to offer the fruits of large format photography to my automotive clients(which may appear only subtle to them now)
Obviously at the this level, the choice is going to be between ms and one shot.
I know I can't use ms for outdoors on most occassions. But I am really tempted to see really stunning outputs.
I would like suggestions and insights that would help me make up my mind.
Looking forward to it..... Thanks in advance.....
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I believe that multi-shoot and micro step is the pursuit of perfection and you can loose your mind going down that path. I would suggest a Linhof Techno or a Sinar P3 because they are built-for-digital, although other companies like Horseman, Arca and I'm sure I'm forgetting some others at the moment.
I'm not really sure why you want to use a view camera, plate cameras (Alpa 12 bodies, Arca RM3Di, Cambo among some others) seem to be all the range and very much capable and certainly easier to use then full-on bellows view cameras. But hey, to each his own.
I'm currently reviewing the Hartblei Hcam which is really nice if you need wide angles, especially if you have canon tilt-shift lenses because the camera comes with a Canon mount, worth a look if you go the plate-camera route instead of view.
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Thanks Brian,
I intend to use a bit of movement on the rear standard to create or eliminate distortion on the vehicles.
This I presume is not possible on plate cameras.
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I intend to use a bit of movement on the rear standard to create or eliminate distortion on the vehicles.
This I presume is not possible on plate cameras.
The real deal with *technical* cameras to minimise distortion (rather than create it) is to zero the back to vertical (that is, the whole camera), and make front movements from there, which may be shift only, or shift and tilt, depending on camera/lens configuration. Another way of negating the need for tilt is to use focus bracketing, AKA stacking (http://www.digital-photography-school.com/an-introduction-to-focus-stacking).
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The real deal with *technical* cameras to minimise distortion (rather than create it) is to zero the back to vertical (that is, the whole camera), and make front movements from there, which may be shift only, or shift and tilt, depending on camera/lens configuration. Another way of negating the need for tilt is to use focus bracketing, AKA stacking (http://www.digital-photography-school.com/an-introduction-to-focus-stacking).
Agreed in most circumstances. With the automobile we are creating a certain character look that sometimes does not happen due to the distance between the front of the car being closer to the camera than the rear (in a front of car facing camera setup). Here the back of the car will appear smaller than the front (obviously). Some times this does not communicate the perceived look of the car and it helps to manipulate that size a little bit. It may sound unconventional, but it works, as I have done earlier on film.
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Agreed in most circumstances. With the automobile we are creating a certain character look that sometimes does not happen due to the distance between the front of the car being closer to the camera than the rear (in a front of car facing camera setup). Here the back of the car will appear smaller than the front (obviously). Some times this does not communicate the perceived look of the car and it helps to manipulate that size a little bit. It may sound unconventional, but it works, as I have done earlier on film.
I understand what you’re saying, and it reminds me of a relatively unknown fact[oid] about perspective, which involves the reproduction size of an image in, say, a newspaper, and the viewing distance. It all relates back to the original shot and its parameters. Generally speaking, longer lenses reproduce the perspective more accurately once the image is printed, and viewed. But geometric accuracy is not always desired. ;D
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Dear Satyajit,
This is possible with the Alpa cameras, by mounting the T/S adapter on the rear plane.
The Alpa Max or XY would be a good choice for the type of work you intend to use the camera for:
Alpa 12 Max (http://www.alpa.ch/de/products/cameras/camera-bodies/alpa-12-max.html)
or
Alpa 12 XY (http://www.alpa.ch/de/products/cameras/camera-bodies/alpa-12-xy.html)
Best regards
Thierry
Thanks Brian,
I intend to use a bit of movement on the rear standard to create or eliminate distortion on the vehicles.
This I presume is not possible on plate cameras.
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Dear Satyajit,
This is possible with the Alpa cameras, by mounting the T/S adapter on the rear plane.
The Alpa Max or XY would be a good choice for the type of work you intend to use the camera for:
Alpa 12 Max (http://www.alpa.ch/de/products/cameras/camera-bodies/alpa-12-max.html)
or
Alpa 12 XY (http://www.alpa.ch/de/products/cameras/camera-bodies/alpa-12-xy.html)
Best regards
Thierry
Thanks.
Looking at the demo the tilt and shift adaptor seems to be compatible with only lenses 80mm and above. There's also an offset of the lens mount. Wouldn't this be a limitation? Especially since I have worked on the 4x5 format.
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Dear Satyajit,
Currently the tilt/swing is limited for lenses from 80mm and longer, but I have informed recently about the new Alpa Tilt Capacity with Wide Lenses, here:
Alpa Tilt Capacity with Wide Lenses (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59833.0)
Read my Post #12
This new tilt & swing possibility will be available within the 1st semester 2012.
Concerning the offset: he current T/S Adapter is to be used with short barrel lenses, cf. here:
Alpa 0-6° (12°) tilt/swing adapter (http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/macro-tilt-swing/alpa-0-6-continously-variable-tilt-swing-adapter-multi-use.html)
Best regards
Thierry
Thanks.
Looking at the demo the tilt and shift adaptor seems to be compatible with only lenses 80mm and above. There's also an offset of the lens mount. Wouldn't this be a limitation? Especially since I have worked on the 4x5 format.
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Satyajit, I had similar aspirations a year ago and bought the Arca M2. It is a beautifully built camera and has the movements you're looking for. I found it almost impossible to focus with wide lenses though and returned it for the RM3di which I use for my architecture work not my automotive work. I do know of other car photographers using tech cameras but they are not concerned with the ability to alter the perspective of the vehicle so much as to produce an image with stunning resolution (sharpness). For my automotive work I use the Mamiya 645 camera and a P45 and P45+. While the lenses are not as sharp as the tech camera lenses they are certainly adequate. I used to shoot a lot of 8x10 and would pull up the back of the car by swinging the back, it's a nuance that no one will appreciate today. I wouldn't worry about it myself. Because of the time constraints we work with these days on car projects the view/tech camera might slow you down too much. I'm very happy with the Mamiya/P45 combo I use and recommend it highly. You can buy two P45 backs for less than the cost of a new IQ160 (I think, perhaps it's close, I bought a used back for $12,000 this last year). Jim
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Satyajit, I had similar aspirations a year ago and bought the Arca M2. It is a beautifully built camera and has the movements you're looking for. I found it almost impossible to focus with wide lenses though and returned it for the RM3di which I use for my architecture work not my automotive work. I do know of other car photographers using tech cameras but they are not concerned with the ability to alter the perspective of the vehicle so much as to produce an image with stunning resolution (sharpness). For my automotive work I use the Mamiya 645 camera and a P45 and P45+. While the lenses are not as sharp as the tech camera lenses they are certainly adequate. I used to shoot a lot of 8x10 and would pull up the back of the car by swinging the back, it's a nuance that no one will appreciate today. I wouldn't worry about it myself. Because of the time constraints we work with these days on car projects the view/tech camera might slow you down too much. I'm very happy with the Mamiya/P45 combo I use and recommend it highly. You can buy two P45 backs for less than the cost of a new IQ160 (I think, perhaps it's close, I bought a used back for $12,000 this last year). Jim
Thanks Jim,
Its true about the lack of time we are pushed into. And in our part of the world nothing much is appreciated. But if I think that way then I could do with a ff 35mm as I have done earlier.
I am willing to throw in some time and attitude and enjoy the slow purposefulness of shooting with a View Camera.
You may be right of the rear standard swing, but I seem to have a hangover and seem to want everything I had on my 4x5. Hopefully over the next few days I would be able to address it more objectively.
The Arca M2 really wets my appetite. SHouldn't focus be easier to achieve with the new Phase One IQ backs that have live view?
The other thing I have heard is that the Arca metals begin to rust in tropical climates(where I live).I have had a friend whose Ball Head Jammed up when he moved from Canada to India. Has there been any more such reports?
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Thanks Jim,
Its true about the lack of time we are pushed into. And in our part of the world nothing much is appreciated. But if I think that way then I could do with a ff 35mm as I have done earlier.
I am willing to throw in some time and attitude and enjoy the slow purposefulness of shooting with a View Camera.
You may be right of the rear standard swing, but I seem to have a hangover and seem to want everything I had on my 4x5. Hopefully over the next few days I would be able to address it more objectively.
The Arca M2 really wets my appetite. SHouldn't focus be easier to achieve with the new Phase One IQ backs that have live view?
The other thing I have heard is that the Arca metals begin to rust in tropical climates(where I live).I have had a friend whose Ball Head Jammed up when he moved from Canada to India. Has there been any more such reports?
I'm not sure how well the live view works on those backs, maybe it will make a difference, with wide lenses I found it impossible to focus using a lupe. It's my understanding that it's not as good as the 5Dmk2, which works well. I have no idea about the metals but I wouldn't think Arca is any different from other manufacturers. Jim
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If you're truly looking for a digital-capable LF camera, then also consider the Linhof M679cs. Contact Paula at Linhof Studio in the UK — she is extremely knowledgeable with all things Linhof. I own one, with my shortest lens being the 60mm Apo-Digitar. Yair Shahar ("yaya" on this forum) has posted examples of car and product photographers using the M679 — it was either this forum or on getDPI, I can't remember which.
Other tech cameras with tilt/swing to consider are the Cambo Wide RS with TS lenses or the Arca Rm series. I own the Cambo but have no experience with the TS lenses. Short lenses work much better on tech cameras than a rail-based view camera. The getDPI MF forum has a range of Cambo, Arca and Alpa owners, so you might want to post your question there too.
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Thanks Jim,
Its true about the lack of time we are pushed into. And in our part of the world nothing much is appreciated. But if I think that way then I could do with a ff 35mm as I have done earlier.
I am willing to throw in some time and attitude and enjoy the slow purposefulness of shooting with a View Camera.
You may be right of the rear standard swing, but I seem to have a hangover and seem to want everything I had on my 4x5. Hopefully over the next few days I would be able to address it more objectively.
The Arca M2 really wets my appetite. SHouldn't focus be easier to achieve with the new Phase One IQ backs that have live view?
The other thing I have heard is that the Arca metals begin to rust in tropical climates(where I live).I have had a friend whose Ball Head Jammed up when he moved from Canada to India. Has there been any more such reports?
I think the Sinar P2 that I have listed for sale here on Lula, may do the lot for you, The system can be expanded to P3, P-DSLR for Canon or Nikon, 8X10, stitching 4 images to cover the whole 4x5 area, multishot and microstep with the proper back and electronic shutter! Not that the Cambo Ultima cannot do the above, ....but I have listed the Sinar. By the way the multishot 4x and microstep 16x image quality you can hve when you shoot stills with an inexpensive 22mpx 7years old back..., Is way better than any shingle shot image and perhaps it will be so for the next couple of decades..., just imagine if you stitch 4 such images on a 4x5! Its a pitty that it can only be true on stills... :'( Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I have finally decided on the Phase One IQ180. MS backs are great but the logistics of getting stable electricity and good lights in India is way too much to handle.
Also by doing a few hours of test on my old 45, I have come to realize that a view cam with full rear standard movements may not be required. And as Jim pointed out may actually cause more head aches.
The set of movements I do need would be a full range on the front standard and rise/fall shift combination on the rear. The disappointing aspect for me is that very few cameras seem to offer this combination. Listed below a few personal contraints I find in each of the listed cameras. I hope some one can suggest how I could over come these through either accessories or mounting methods.
Linhof Techno : No shift on the rear standard.
Arca swiss RM3D : No Swing on the front standard (does the RL3d have this feature?)
Alpa : Lenses below the FL of 80m cant be used on the tilt/swing adaptor.
The horseman VCC Pro DB seems to be the only camera that has all the features I require and falls into the light weight category.
Could someone let me know how Horseman figures in the service part? as I have heard rumours that the company is in a transition period.
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Alpa : Lenses below the FL of 80m cant be used on the tilt/swing adaptor.
Satyajit,
Please refer to my post 8: there will be the possibility to tilt/swing with short focal lenses soon.
Thierry
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Thanks Thierry.
Does this mean that I can confidently consider buying the Alpa within the next month?
If so. Pls let me know who the dealer is in India. Or do I need to make a trip some where
To make the purchase?
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Satyajit perhaps for all these movements a Cambo WDS is the ticket for you, with T/S lens mounts
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Satyajit perhaps for all these movements a Cambo WDS is the ticket for you, with T/S lens mounts
Thanks. You are right. Will seriously look into it right away.
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i use the cambo wrs with SK43 and 120 and Rod70 all in T/S mounts. the back has +/-15-20mm rise shift both ways. I also use a IQ160 and find the focus mask, where you shoot and check what is in focus, then adjust for the next shot. other than operating tethered, this is the best way for me. some have tried live view, i have not, but it is there. previously, i used the Xact wtih a digital back and ground glass adapter. had all the movements but you could simply not see what was happening on the tiny GG. the beauty of the 4x5 ground glass focusing is not part of the digital back approach, sadly. I think the Phase IQ backs are very useful for tech cameras, probably would have made the Xact a keeper. shooting tethered offers the use of a large monitor and also focusmask via capture one.
what one really wants is a large, at least 4x5, live view image. with the IQ, you get a pretty good, but small and dead, image
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You're welcome.
The Tilt/Swing option for short FL lenses is planed any time from now till latest June.
We are in the process to appoint an Alpa dealer currently. For the time being it would be good to take contact with Alpa directly, at alpa@alpa.ch
Best regards
Thierry
Thanks Thierry.
Does this mean that I can confidently consider buying the Alpa within the next month?
If so. Pls let me know who the dealer is in India. Or do I need to make a trip some where
To make the purchase?
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Arca swiss RM3D : No Swing on the front standard (does the RL3d have this feature?)
With the revised/current version, the RM3di, you can have either tilt or swing: you remove the front of the body, rotate it by 90 degrees and insert it again.
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"...had all the movements but you could simply not see what was happening on the tiny GG."
I have the X-Act2 and find that some what true, depending on which lens and what lighting is used. I can't speak for the IQ but can say that when shooting tethered to a laptop, the Leaf AFi-ii 12 live view is quite workable. The live view on the hasselblad CF 528 is not as good, but it does have the focusing aid where you can pick your focus point and it tracks your focus with a graph and audio signal. The X-Act2 has a rear curtain leather bellows that accommodates the use of wider lenses, however the front and rear standards still end up being fairly close to each other with really wide lenses without retrofocal elements which somewhat limits the range of movement.
Another point besides the camera selection to consider is to look at which backs+software handle color cast with wide lenses better as surely you will encounter this.
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Some really good points being made here.
I use a Linhof M679cs with a Phase One P65+. The way I look at is that large format digital is still a work in progress. Bit by bit the gaps are being filled (for example look at the improvements in lenses over the past five or so years), but there's still a way to go before the basics are acceptably well sorted out.
The core problem that I still experience is focusing, especially when employing movements.
Ground glass on 4"x5" cameras with a x4 or x5 loupe worked adequately well. But we've still got what are essentially the same ground glass screens, except now we really need x12 or x15 loupes. But go much above about x7 and all you see the grain of the glass.
Live view could change all that. But currently it's not available. Certainly I don't consider the IQ 180 as delivering useable live view, if it did I'd have upgraded. I'm not an engineer, but as I understand we won't get true live view until there are medium format CMOS sensors. I hear regular comments from Phase One dealers and staff that strongly suggest CMOS is in active development, I'm sure the big sites like this have better information, but I'm equally sure non disclosure agreements prevent any comments.
The next problem is the stability and precision of the cameras.
I don't want to get into a debate about brands, but the way I look at it is this, if a Linhof M679cs isn't quite rigid/precise enough for digital (and it isn't) then no similarly designed camera is likely to be up to the job either. The Alpa style design offers more precision, but at the price of movement restrictions and additional focusing inconveniences.
Once live view's available then perhaps LF digital can start to come of age, with cameras moving more in the direction of Alpa style designs, discarding sliding backs or the requirement to mount and unmount backs, and composition and focusing being chiefly achieved via live view.
Until then LF digital remains a compromised work in progress. I'm still using it, and still enjoying my photography, but I honestly think we've a way to go yet.
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... but the way I look at it is this, if a Linhof M679cs isn't quite rigid/precise enough for digital (and it isn't) then no similarly designed camera is likely to be up to the job either.
That's interesting to read. Can you add a bit more detail? I have noticed that the addition of a sliding back to the X-Act2 and a heavy back and finder combo can cause the X-Act2 to sag a tiny amount which obviously isn't desirable though easy enough to work around. I had been looking at the Linhof 679 as something to consider....
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I use an Alpa Max when I just need to shift. Sometimes I tilt the 90mm with it though I find reconfiguring the tilt adapter and wood handles for rear mounting a pain. Lovely simple camera and the helical is good with any focal length.
I ended up using an Arca Monolith when I need lots of movement. All movements on both standards and has reasonable precision. Of course, I would like a finer focus gearing and my shortest lens on it is 70mm. Would love to try a 50mm, but the standards would probably get in the way of moving much.
To tell the truth, though, I have never really managed complex movements with the Arca. I can combine tilt and shift/rise, but combining tilt and swing is just too uncertain - even thethered. Focus visualization remains the problem. The thing I like best about the Arca is that, as a studio camera, I have Rollei shutters on most of the lenses. I find that makes shooting variants for blends and stacking easier.
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Thanks to all for the inputs.
I'd like to let you all know that I have finally decided to go with the Linhof Techno and the IQ180.
One thing I'd like some feed back on is the use of Electronic Shutters. I would ideally like to have three shutters for each of my three lenses. But that seems to be working out very expensive.
SO I plan to buy just one electronic shutter and use it only for situations that demand easy access (like when I shoot using a motion rig from a height).
Is there a a consequence on the lens coming up with problems if I, once in a while, keep removing and refitting them to different shutters?
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One thing I'd like some feed back on is the use of Electronic Shutters.
Is there a a consequence on the lens coming up with problems if I, once in a while, keep removing and refitting them to different shutters?
Others will have more precise feedback, but I've changed a few without noticeable effects ( at least so far ;D ). Schneider will tell you they are calibrated at factory and shouldn't be removed, but I did and there are not any shims in the ones I've seen. The elements can be turned less or further in depending on tightness - which you'd ideally want to strive to keep the same.
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You mention needing easy access as a reason to use the electronic shutter. Is the camera at a height with you tethered on the ground, or are both of you up there?
Eshutters need lots of fiddling, especially with a Phase back. Amazingly, C1 has no shutter control. The Rollei needs its controller to be close to the lens and you need to be there to twist knobs and push buttons. The Schneider (beside being slow) has a bunch of cabling and independent software running on the computer. I think the new Sinar is similar. None of this is well integrated with the tethering system.
The only way to make using a MF eshutter convenient (that I know of) is to get a Hasselblad. Shutter control is nicely integrated into Phocus, though you still need to have the Rollei controller - and a power supply - by the lens. At least it is controlled via firewire and you don't have to futz with it.
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You mention needing easy access as a reason to use the electronic shutter. Is the camera at a height with you tethered on the ground, or are both of you up there?
Most situations, camera is a little higher than where I am. Since I do use nd filters I could find it difficult to lunge and cork the shutter and open the aperture etc. I am ok even if it's not tethered, or with the laptop away from me a bit. The objective is to operate the aperture and shutter functions without having to lunge or stretch where I run the risk of moving the camera or filters.
This is going to be my first experience with view camera, digital back and eshutter combination.
I did not get the part about the Hasselblad. I have worked with phocus, but how does it figure in a view camera set up?
Thanks for the inputs.
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I did not get the part about the Hasselblad. I have worked with phocus, but how does it figure in a view camera set up?
Thanks for the inputs.
Phocus communicates with the Rollei shutter controller via special cable. You can set aperture, time, initiate "live view", etc., all from Phocus. With the motorized lenses you can also focus on the computer. C1 doesn't do any of this. You have to use the Rollei LCS itself to control the eshutter - which means you have to be right beside the LCS.
That's fine, as long as you do not have to be more than a couple of feet from the camera. The connection cable between the LCS unit and the lens is short so you can't be on the ground, for example, manipulating the LCS up on a dolly. That's why we are always looking for a simple app that replaces the LCS with wireless shutter control. Sinar may have that under way with their new shutter but I have no experience with it.
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Just to add to Cunim's post - even Hasselblads older software Flexcolor is really well integrated for use with technical cameras and electronic shutters. The rollei shutters are the fastest at 1/500th and very good. Phocus and Flexcolor record shutter and aperture values in the EXIF too which is another thing C1 can't. The software integration ... It's a reason to consider a Hasselblad back by itself if you use the technical camera for most of your work.
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Worth noting that with Leaf backs both C1 and LC provide the basic controls for the Rollei and Schneider electronic shutters
Leaf Capture opens the shutter for Live View and you can then take a shot directrly from there, it'll close the lens and release the shutter for you
It also has the DOF button for the Rollei just like on the controller
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Worth noting that with Leaf backs both C1 and LC provide the basic controls for the Rollei and Schneider electronic shutters
Leaf Capture opens the shutter for Live View and you can then take a shot directrly from there, it'll close the lens and release the shutter for you
It also has the DOF button for the Rollei just like on the controller
WOW, this puts me in a dilemna.
How is it that the electronic shutter controls works in C1 for LEAF and not for Capture one backs themselves? Strange isn't it?
I had just decided to buy the IQ180 :-\
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WOW, this puts me in a dilemna.
How is it that the electronic shutter controls works in C1 for LEAF and not for Capture one backs themselves? Strange isn't it?
I had just decided to buy the IQ180 :-\
I don't mean to discourage you from trying any back. There are things I miss about the Blad and things I don't. I would like to have a look at the new Rodenstock eshutters (Sinar). They claim you can control shutter functions from an iphone and that would do nicely if a sync pulse goes to the back. Sadly, things rarely work as they claim.
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That's interesting to read. Can you add a bit more detail? I have noticed that the addition of a sliding back to the X-Act2 and a heavy back and finder combo can cause the X-Act2 to sag a tiny amount which obviously isn't desirable though easy enough to work around. I had been looking at the Linhof 679 as something to consider....
Eric, I haven't noticed the Linhof M679cs sagging with the sliding back, but I have noticed that in a reasonably strong breeze the addition of the sliding back can make the entire camera vibrate. It's not immediately obvious, but I was aware that in breezy conditions I was seeing a small drop in image quality on longer shutter speeds, switching to the fixed back cured this. So I made a crude "stethoscope" from rolled up paper and applied it to the camera body during a decent force six to seven wind, and you could detect a slight fluttering vibration. I fairness I think this problem afflicts all large format photography, digital and traditional, but with traditional the smaller enlargement factors tended to obscure it.
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Hello everybody,
The Linhof Techno, IQ 180 with 43 and 120 SK lenses are here!!
The SK 70mm is on its way.
Thanks to everyone of you who have been part of this great adventure for me.
More than just information, it's been great learning.
I would continue to learn......
I am a bit overwhelmed in every sense.
Emotionally, financially, technically and more...
I put together everything but am yet to do any serious tests.
Fortunately I have a very controlled shoot starting today where I'll put the kit to a real scenario test.
Luckily no client or agency will attend this shoot and breath down my neck!
I'll post results in a week or so.
Thanks again to all...
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I am a bit overwhelmed in every sense.
Emotionally, financially, technically and more...
So, India’s government approved the big shift in forex? ;D
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That's my dealers problem.
I am not dealing with any forex!!
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So, India’s government approved the big shift in forex? ;D
Actually, it's not been a problem for some years now.
Kumar
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Actually, it's not been a problem for some years now.
’twas a joke, Kumar!
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Yes, of course I did see the ;D
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Yes, of course I did see the ;D
So start testing! And posting! ;)