Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: henrikfoto on January 05, 2012, 12:43:51 pm
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I have seen very impressing results from Hcam and the canon 24 ts and 17 ts.
From what I can see these results are better than I can get with my DF body and wide lenses.
But have anybody compared these results totecnical cameras with rel LF lenses?
Henrik
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25tse vs 35HR: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=39887.0
17tse vs 23HR: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=39838.0
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Thank you, Thomas!
I am realy impressed by what Canon are doing!!!
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I just looked at Rainer's test and the way I read it the 24 was on a 5dmk2, so it has nothing to do with the question. I'd be interested in the answer though. My guess is that the LF lenses will be sharper do to their design but the angle of view would be spectacular with the 17 and 24. Michael has tested the 17 I believe a while back (perhaps the 24 also), as I recall the 24 still allowed for some shift. Hartblei has a collar for the t/s lens that allows the lens to stay stationary and the camera shifts. Of course, the other advantage of the tech camera is the capability to shift both horizontally and vertically. Jim
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yes .. but its not only about sharpness. the great advantage of the HR lenses is that they are sharp even if not stopped down. the canons behave here more "traditional". best to stop them down to 11 or even f13.
BUT ... if other aspects as pure sharpness may count, the canons are superior ( at f13 tehy are comparable with the HR lenses in terms of sharpness too ), e.g. in terms of geometric distortion they are i.m.o. better as well as with handling of flare of any kind.
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Now the question becomes (assuming we want more resolution) do we purchase the Hartblei camera or wait for the anticipated 36mp bodies that the Nikon and Canon rumor mill have coming. Jim
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It would have been nice if anybody could test the lenses with the same back?
I am sure it has been done allready...?
If it's just as good as the Schneider/Rodenstock, the Hcam is a good investment.
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The Hartblei always is a good investment. It is a great camera for wide angle but in studio it is also a super workhorse. I use it almost dayly in studio and simply love it. I am about to have my Sinar Artec modified to Hasselblad H and will than be able to compare the 28mm HR to the 24mm on the HB1.
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So I guess we will look for your used ArTec, and then we will know the result from your tests :D
Henrik
Please let us know what you find out.
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Stefan Steib has got some images from tests he's done with the Aptus-II 12
The 17mm IMO is a bit "extreme" and tends to stretch everything that is not in the centre, but the 24mm is excellent and has a large image circle
s.steib@hartblei.de
Yair
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I have already posted several links here or in GetDPI to full res images with Canon TSE 17+24mmV2, here is a full rez 80 mpix with the 17mm f11,5:
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/Leaf80Mpix_Canon17mmTSE.jpg
and here a series from the PPL Openhouse - 17mm + 24mm TSE - a shot with the Nikon 14-24mmG-ED at14mm (I am 100 % sure cutting off the sunshade will allow full image cover at least for the P45+) and something that we did not even speak about - how would you like to get a MF Autofokus Zoom from Zeiss that works flawlessly on the Canon 5DMk2 AND for MF from 70mm-300mm ? It´s a Conurus converted Zeiss Contax N Vario Sonnar 70-300mm with Canon EF mount, 2 shots supplied 70mm and 300mm same position full zoom. Conurus sells converted samples of this directly from their website for 1000 $ (http://conurus.com/contax/buy-a-lens-that-has-already-been-modified)
All jpgs full res directly from Capture one 6.3.3 100 %
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/HCam-P45Plus-24mmTSE-F11.jpg
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/HCam-P45Plus-17mmTSE-F11.jpg
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/HCam-P45Plus-Nik14-24GED-F11.jpg
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/HCam-P45Plus-Zeiss70-300VarioSonnar70mm-F11.jpg
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/HCam-P45Plus-Zeiss70-300VarioSonnar300mm-F11.jpg
and there are so much more usable lenses - look here:
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/LensList-HCam.pdf
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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I have just uploaded two more images to my website - these are IQ180 nearly (70% - the real thing is too big) full res (jpg´s) -one with 24mm Canon TSE- the other from the same camera position with the 17mm TSE.
This demonstrates very good the huge improvement in angle with the 17mm - and how nicely this could be used for crops of the varioust formats. The 17mm still has some mm of movements with the 80 Mpix ! There was NO whiteshot done, nor any lens distortion corrections and only a bit of light falloff (no center filter needed). If you watch the borders in the channels (especially green!) we have full saturation and few chromas, thus full information from center to border !!! And this is because it´s retrofocus with about 65mm of distance from the back lens to the chip
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/IQ180-24mmTSE-02.jpg
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/IQ180-17mmTSE-01.jpg
attention BIG files nearly 60 MB
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
PS.: Have cleaned the dust I saw, ran a low unsharp mask and done a tad saturation+ on one file and a minus on the other to equalize them.
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When will these 2 lenses from Canon stop to amaze me!
Sharp pictures with usable corners on a full frame medium format digital back?
Wow!
Thanks Stefan
Eduardo
I have just uploaded two more images to my website - these are IQ180 nearly (70% - the real thing is too big) full res (jpg´s) -one with 24mm Canon TSE- the other from the same camera position with the 17mm TSE.
This demonstrates very good the huge improvement in angle with the 17mm - and how nicely this could be used for crops of the varioust formats. The 17mm still has some mm of movements with the 80 Mpix ! There was NO whiteshot done, nor any lens distortion corrections and only a bit of light falloff (no center filter needed). If you watch the borders in the channels (especially green!) we have full saturation and few chromas, thus full information from center to border !!! And this is because it´s retrofocus with about 65mm of distance from the back lens to the chip
attention BIG files nearly 60 MB
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
PS.: Have cleaned the dust I saw, ran a low unsharp mask and done a tad saturation+ on one file and a minus on the other to equalize them.
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Eduardo
there is a not so much known fact about the newest Canon Lenses which are (to my knowledge) 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE V2, 8-15mm Fisheye Zoom
They use pressed/molded lenses, allowing aspherical constructions not possible with any other technology. You will see it best when you look into the frontlens
of the 17mm directly from the side. There is a "fingerlike" hole in the back of the frontlens, which could not be made with grinding/polishing traditional technology.
Now this is a very interesting point. It actually means that Canon can do lenses with the exact same focal lenght, focuspoints and calibration data, which means (I believe)
they can do these lenses in automated production, one like the other, like prints made of glass. The only variation will come from mounting in differing barrel parts
(this also means there will be mostly very good lenses, very few bad samples).
This is a technology that stands out and is probably giving them some years of development headroom against the competition, including Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock.
I would also think that if they would launch a Pro line (which they are doing now with the cinelenses!!!!) with even better tolerances for the barrels they can reach or surpass
their used sensor resolutions for only a bit higher cost but with a significantly better margin.
As I may have said before - I admire Japanese engineering - it always is orientated long term, regarding to kaizen AND company strategy. Very, very clever.........
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi Stefan!
Thank you for the information.
Up to what focal lenghth will this new technology be superior?
Is is just important for the very wide lenses?
Henrik
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Hi Henrik
I am not Canon, but as far as I can say: For any focal lenght ! I think they put this technology into all critical processes first - I believe most if not all
new lenses with large asphericals will use this - e.g. here:
http://cinescopophilia.com/canon-xj95x8-6b-super-telephoto-long-zoom-hd-field-lens/
"...The new lens is engineered with many of Canon’s most advanced technologies, including powerful optical design tools, new glass materials, and new exotic optical coatings. Canon’s proprietary large-diameter aspherical lens technology and new glass materials minimize lateral chromatic aberration, monochromatic aberrations, and geometric distortion that have always challenged large focal-length ranges. Significant reduction of these aberrations enhances the superb resolution and contrast in a manner that contributes to the capture of images with superb picture sharpness across the 16:9 HD image plane..."
but also for the consumer range to improve compactness and optical performance on high zoom factor compacts:
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/digital_cameras/powershot_elph_520_hs?selectedName=Features
there is even more info available directly from canon but you have to read between the lines, they do not say something about where they use what:
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/room/hikyu.html (this site has a lot more interesting details about canon lens technology)
My info about this came directly from Canon Germany last May on the PCP Tour 2011 when I was talking to them about how amazing the results
were with our camera and their TS -E lenses. The Info is somehow available but not much recognized as revolutionary !
regards
Stefan
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I have this camera, along with a Canon 24mm TSE among some others, for review, results will start appearing on my Flickr tmrw
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If I recall well and the info was right, a few years ago Leica tried to make aspherical elements my molding, but later declared this project as impossible. (at that time)
Eduardo
Eduardo
there is a not so much known fact about the newest Canon Lenses which are (to my knowledge) 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE V2, 8-15mm Fisheye Zoom
They use pressed/molded lenses, allowing aspherical constructions not possible with any other technology. You will see it best when you look into the frontlens
of the 17mm directly from the side. There is a "fingerlike" hole in the back of the frontlens, which could not be made with grinding/polishing traditional technology.
Now this is a very interesting point. It actually means that Canon can do lenses with the exact same focal lenght, focuspoints and calibration data, which means (I believe)
they can do these lenses in automated production, one like the other, like prints made of glass. The only variation will come from mounting in differing barrel parts
(this also means there will be mostly very good lenses, very few bad samples).
This is a technology that stands out and is probably giving them some years of development headroom against the competition, including Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock.
I would also think that if they would launch a Pro line (which they are doing now with the cinelenses!!!!) with even better tolerances for the barrels they can reach or surpass
their used sensor resolutions for only a bit higher cost but with a significantly better margin.
As I may have said before - I admire Japanese engineering - it always is orientated long term, regarding to kaizen AND company strategy. Very, very clever.........
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi,
Most japanese zoom lenses use molded aspherics. I got the impression that there are a couple of glass compositions that make molded aspherics possible.
http://www.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/our_products/process_components/lenses/precision_molded.html
Best regards
Erik
If I recall well and the info was right, a few years ago Leica tried to make aspherical elements my molding, but later declared this project as impossible. (at that time)
Eduardo
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Hi Erik
I knew the link from Schott - the point is the Size and the extremety of curvature that Canon can do (remember the 17mm front lens ! This linked cine lens in my earlier post is probably using even bigger sizes ! ) , Schott defines it limited as follows:
Lens diameter: 1,5 – 35 mm
Lens thickness: 0,5 – 10 mm
Radius of curvature convex: > 3 mm
Radius of curvature concave: > 5 mm
Which means - Schott cannot do the frontlens of the 17mm TSE. And probably nobody else than Canon.
Regards
Stefan
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Is molding of these elements seen as the best way to get the maximum quality or does it have any negative effect on the image-quality in any way?
I wonder if Schott can do these molding why can't Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock etc?
Or is there any reason they prefer not to?
Henrik
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Hi Henrik
grinding of lenses will produce a yield of quality which differs for each lens, not much, but enough so that the ISO Norm on focal lenght of a 100 mm lens
may supply you with either a 95mm or a 105mm lens within the same batch of production !!!
In contrast to this I am pretty sure that molded lenses are having nearly identical focal lenghts and other optical data for each and every lens produced.
Schott makes many if not all (or at least made) of the Zeiss lenses (Made in Germany), whereas today I think Cosina/Zeiss uses Hoya glass (this is probably as good !)
And finally : the devellopment of such a technology probably costs a fortune, even for a large company. Now take into account the numbers that Qioptiq(Rodenstock)
and also Schneider Kreuznach produce in this area and compare this to the volume that Canon does. I think this says it all. No way you will ever see such a Rodie or Schneider. ..........too expensive for them.
So who is selling the Hightech here ? ???
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Thank you, Stefan!
This is very interesting and I think very little known by most people.
I had no idea Zeiss glass was not made by zeiss....
Do Canon somewere have information about what size image-circle their different lenses produse?
Henrik
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Hi Henrik
If I knew a source for this I´d be the happiest person on the planet, but this does not exist..........
You have to try each and every lens by yourself, but - hopefully when more people use HCam, we will finally get into the knowledge
where the pearls are hidden.
One more hint: Many Leica R lenses (very likely) and Contax Glass use to have larger image circles past 50mm.
This probably as they have actually built lenses with larger image circles to utilize the sweetspot of the larger diameter to improve uniformity.
Regards
Stefan
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Hi Stefan,
Didn't want to argue with you on that point ;-)
I read an article about optical glass in C't a couple of years ago, and they mentioned two kinds of glass that could be used for molded lenses.
The poster I was responding to stated that Leica tried molded aspherics and found them impractical.
As far as I understand essentially all modern lenses use molded aspherics, but probably small ones, as you mentioned.
The images you posted are awesome, but look a bit over sharpened to me. That camera is an impressive device!
By the way, how do you focus?
Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik
I knew the link from Schott - the point is the Size and the extremety of curvature that Canon can do (remember the 17mm front lens ! This linked cine lens in my earlier post is probably using even bigger sizes ! ) , Schott defines it limited as follows:
Lens diameter: 1,5 – 35 mm
Lens thickness: 0,5 – 10 mm
Radius of curvature convex: > 3 mm
Radius of curvature concave: > 5 mm
Which means - Schott cannot do the frontlens of the 17mm TSE. And probably nobody else than Canon.
Regards
Stefan
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Original picture is 5530X6661px from a stitch made with the 5D2 and the 17TS @f9.0
Eduardo
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Hi Eric
I focus with the Groundglass ! We have taken large efforts to get this sorted out and now every HCam-B1 that leaves factory is calibrated to the groundglass.
As a consequence we have now fixed the viewfinder adapter with screws to the HCam-B1 Body. As a standard we deliver a third party focusing screen, but we have more and more customers now which take the chance and either buy or supply us their own Arcbody/SWC viewfinder adapter latest Acumatte version with grid - which is certainly the best screen available, unfortunately it is not made new anymore.
As the Canon Lenses are f3,5 respectively f4 this is a full or 1,5 stops brighter than a comparable Rodie or Schneider WA lens . This helps a LOT !
This is even better when you have f2,8 or f1,4 (e.g. Zeiss 85mm Planar) to focus on the HCam. This works as easy as on a 35mm camera, but with the precision of a 4xLoupe as I used it on my Viewcamera.
So the yield of sharp images is pretty good, even if you only use the optical finder, if I want to be 100 % sure, I do 3 shots a tad front focus, as in the finder and a bit backfocus
because sometimes the spherical character of the extreme wideangle 17+24mm will help to achieve unbelievable sharpness even into the corners.
My theory is that many people who do complain the borders with these TS-E´s are not sharp do not understand how much this spherical character influences the sharpeness
area. Once you got it you can do incredible things with it (Interiors, Architecture, Landscape....)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan