Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: Raymond Bleesz on December 17, 2011, 09:29:02 am

Title: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Raymond Bleesz on December 17, 2011, 09:29:02 am
Some time ago, I looked forward to PDN Forum, and still do, hoping. The forum commentors at one time were for the most part professionals. There comments regarding photography et al was well respected, and I certainly gained knowledge by paying attention to the forum. Those posters who contributed almost daily were people who took on a persona, individuals who offered intellectual substance, whether you agreed with it or not. Not to say that today's PDN  commentatos do not offer substance, but what happened to all those great contributers?  What became of all those outstanding photographers who offered their insight and input?  Have they migrated to other forums? The present PDN forum is stagnant, IMO. Those commentators/photographers have vanished into the yonder. Where are you??? What became of the PDN forum?

Raymond
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: haefnerphoto on December 17, 2011, 03:40:45 pm
Raymond, What is the PDN forum?  Jim
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Schewe on December 18, 2011, 01:46:57 am
Where are you??? What became of the PDN forum?

So...you come here in the LuLa forums to lament the death of some other forum? Really? And you think that's a good idea? Maybe THAT'S why the other forum died...putzes?
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Bryan Conner on December 18, 2011, 01:50:52 am
So...you come here in the LuLa forums to lament the death of some other forum? Really? And you think that's a good idea? Maybe THAT'S why the other forum died...putzes?

My thoughts exactly. 
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Rob C on December 18, 2011, 03:47:48 am
Raymond, What is the PDN forum?  Jim


Photo District News

Rob C
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: BobDavid on December 18, 2011, 09:46:58 am
So...you come here in the LuLa forums to lament the death of some other forum? Really? And you think that's a good idea? Maybe THAT'S why the other forum died...putzes?

They guy just asked a question. Lots of photogs visit many forums each day.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Raymond Bleesz on December 18, 2011, 12:48:42 pm
Bob, yes, I asked a question---to learn in the Socratic mode---thank you.  I do visit a good number of venues/forums this one being a frequent one.  And I did notice a "regular" commentor here who I have followed over the years at the PDN forum---that being Ellis Veneer who contributes to this forum.

So to limit one's self to one forum is limiting.

Raymond
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: David Eichler on December 21, 2011, 04:14:58 am
The PDN forum did have some good business discussions which is by far the biggest fail of almost all photo forums. LL has provided another place (yet small) for the business part of photography. There just aren't that many pro shooters who frequent LL in general or on a regular basis.

I find it easier just to pick up the phone and call people I know who have equal or more experience and get have a good talk about biz matters.

Speaking of business matters, John-S, what is up with your website? Nothing there. Would not seem to be good for business these days. Or, are you in such demand that you don't need it. :-)
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: digitaldog on December 21, 2011, 10:02:41 am
Have they migrated to other forums? The present PDN forum is stagnant, IMO. Those commentators/photographers have vanished into the yonder. Where are you??? What became of the PDN forum?

They are mostly here I think. The PDN forums, which at one time were great is completely dead now.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: mmurph on December 22, 2011, 03:19:40 pm
The PDN forums were very popular, and very professional, until about 3 years ago.  It was the best forum on the "Business of Photography."

They did a site redesign for the forums that everyone **hated** with a passion!  Most of the contributers migrated to a couple of other sites, but along the way we lost about 90% of the people and it didn't quite "take."

I forget what was so bad about the redesign.  But they did not listen to their user base, persisted wth a really poorly designed rollout, and basically killed the site!  I think traffic went down by at least 95%. 

A classic, classic example of what NOT to do, and how not to "monetize" the traffic to your site! 

Maybe some others can chime in with their own perspective.  My memory is a bit fuzzy about what was so bad about the new site.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Raymond Bleesz on December 23, 2011, 09:56:19 am
I initiated this question, and I thank those who have responded. I likewise would like to know more. In the early 80's I believe, if not before,  I became aware of the PDN magazine/slick publication of which I still have some copies. The New York City publication was eagerly read by me and I subscribed. When it went on line, I logged on daily for the inputs of these pros.  I do not know about the whys or the politics, but I miss you all. Thank you, MMURPH
Raymond
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: tcphoto on December 24, 2011, 06:48:32 pm
I remember when I went to the PDN forum on a daily basis. It was filled with a great exchange of knowledge and ideas. Then they required a subscription in order to participate and it turned into a ghost town. There are plenty of places to go to for better content and I just don't believe that one needs to pay for it.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Craig Murphy on December 29, 2011, 12:43:04 pm
Yes.  PDN forum was good and I remember also that the redesign pretty much wrecked it.   It was the best photo business forum around at the time and had a core group of people that were very sharing with information.  
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: amsp on December 31, 2011, 06:26:40 am
Anyone know of any forum for pro photographers? And I don't mean the baby/wedding/dog photographers you usually find, I mean actual pros. I've looked and I can't find one even remotely interesting. One where photography *gasp* and the business of it is discussed, instead of constant tech arguments and pixel peeping by engineers and weekend warriors.  ::)
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: bdkphoto on December 31, 2011, 08:40:06 am
You could try the ASMPproAdvice@yahoogroups.com, and/or the APAnet@yahoogroups.com both are primarily business discussions and open forums.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Craig Murphy on December 31, 2011, 12:10:58 pm
Not forums but I am following Leslie Burns at Burns Auto Parts (not really auto related.  She is a photo consultant)  on FB and Twitter.  Following Rob Haggerts A Photo Editor feed is great also.  These are blogs etc. but are great resources for business related discussions.     
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: amsp on January 01, 2012, 05:03:11 am
You could try the ASMPproAdvice@yahoogroups.com, and/or the APAnet@yahoogroups.com both are primarily business discussions and open forums.

Cheers, might check these out.

Not forums but I am following Leslie Burns at Burns Auto Parts (not really auto related.  She is a photo consultant)  on FB and Twitter.  Following Rob Haggerts A Photo Editor feed is great also.  These are blogs etc. but are great resources for business related discussions.     

Yeah, I've been following "A Photo Editor" for some time now, there's some good stuff there once in a while.

Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: K.C. on January 01, 2012, 08:03:11 pm
Not forums but I am following Leslie Burns at Burns Auto Parts (not really auto related.  She is a photo consultant)  on FB and Twitter.  Following Rob Haggerts A Photo Editor feed is great also.  These are blogs etc. but are great resources for business related discussions.     

Yes, best to follow her there because she won't be found here:

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject:      
Lu-la is mostly populated with, at best, prosumers. I don't like to sound like a snob, but the quality of the convos there, well, I don't want to participate.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on January 02, 2012, 04:57:39 am
Yes, best to follow her there because she won't be found here:

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject:      
Lu-la is mostly populated with, at best, prosumers. I don't like to sound like a snob, but the quality of the convos there, well, I don't want to participate.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts
Hmm. She's certainly not wracked by self-doubt, is she?

Jeremy
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: nightfire on January 02, 2012, 10:43:48 am
Hmm. She's certainly not wracked by self-doubt, is she?

Wracked by self-doubt? As a consultant?  ;)
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Rob C on January 03, 2012, 08:47:07 am
Wracked by self-doubt? As a consultant?  ;)


You know what they say about consultants: someone who's called in at the last minute to share the blame.

That alone can make them worth the fee!

Rob C
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Craig Lamson on January 03, 2012, 08:56:58 am
Hmm. She's certainly not wracked by self-doubt, is she?

Jeremy

I'm not a prude by any means but quite frankly her use of foul language is down right ugly.  I don't really care how much sense she makes, the presentation makes her useless to me.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: amsp on January 03, 2012, 09:57:31 am
I'm not a prude by any means but quite frankly her use of foul language is down right ugly.  I don't really care how much sense she makes, the presentation makes her useless to me.

Funny cause quite frankly I find it refreshing. She writes like most people talk, at least people from my generation. And the no-nonsense straight to the point way she presents herself appeals very much to me. Like her I'm quite sick of smarmy, politically correct, corporate bullshit. Sorry you can't get past that because she's got some interesting things to say.

Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: siebel on January 07, 2012, 06:27:15 am
Funny cause quite frankly I find it refreshing. She writes like most people talk, at least people from my generation. And the no-nonsense straight to the point way she presents herself appeals very much to me. Like her I'm quite sick of smarmy, politically correct, corporate bullshit. Sorry you can't get past that because she's got some interesting things to say.



I'm with you all the way on this. If someone is spouting BS here, which sadly, is becoming more frequent, I'd rather someone call them out.Bullshit is bullshit by any other name. I like my answers straight and I detest misinformation being passed off as fact. If the language used is a little colourful, well, I'll put up with it provided the content is valuable. I'm tired of ignorant twits spouting nonsense and having everyone tiptoe around the issue. How are people supposed to learn if suspect statements and practices aren't challenged and tested in the most robust terms? This forum descends into mediocrity and irrelevance if the conversations are not able to be robust, just because a small number of individuals might take offence. A spade should be called a spade.
I used to follow PDN also, but it descended into mediocrity because the few truly knowledgeable contributors got tired of the low-level pedantry and sudden volume of chatter from measurebators.
This particular area, supposedly being for pros, should be the most robust of all. I, for one, have been shooting high-end ads internationally for 20+ years and I'm happy to muck-in here to share and learn in equal measure. However, if I have to pussyfoot around all the time, then I'll go play elsewhere. I'm pretty sure this is what killed the PDN forums and hope it doesn't happen here.
Cheers,
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost Its Luster
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on January 07, 2012, 12:41:46 pm
I'm with you all the way on this. If someone is spouting BS here, which sadly, is becoming more frequent, I'd rather someone call them out.Bullshit is bullshit by any other name. I like my answers straight and I detest misinformation being passed off as fact. If the language used is a little colourful, well, I'll put up with it provided the content is valuable. I'm tired of ignorant twits spouting nonsense and having everyone tiptoe around the issue. How are people supposed to learn if suspect statements and practices aren't challenged and tested in the most robust terms? This forum descends into mediocrity and irrelevance if the conversations are not able to be robust, just because a small number of individuals might take offence.
I think you're confusing robustness of expression with coarseness of language. I relish the first and would hope that it long remains here. I'm not bothered in the least by the second, but others are. If someone is able to convey his (or indeed her) argument only by swearing, it would be best for him to remain silent until his knowledge of language and/or capacity for self-restraint improves.

A spade should be called a spade.
Agreed. It doesn't need to be called a f*****g shovel, however.1

Jeremy

1 Yes, thanks, I know that a spade and a shovel are different implements.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost Its Luster
Post by: K.C. on January 07, 2012, 02:39:50 pm
I think you're confusing robustness of expression with coarseness of language. I relish the first and would hope that it long remains here. I'm not bothered in the least by the second, but others are. If someone is able to convey his (or indeed her) argument only by swearing, it would be best for him to remain silent until his knowledge of language and/or capacity for self-restraint improves.

Well said and I agree completely.

Too often rude language is a tool to infer frankness and engender camaraderie, but it's simply manipulation. But no worries Leslie has been working on her law degree and will find herself in like company. The consulting trade has languished along with the decline of the pro photo market so she's moving on.

Another quote of her's regarding LuLa:

"Actually, I do know some real pros who try to participate, to raise the level and educate, but they rarely last and are always very frustrated at the attitudes shown on that site."

In case anyone has doubts, you'l find the thread here: http://prophotoforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=5295&highlight=#5295
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost Its Luster
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on January 08, 2012, 12:52:10 pm
Well said and I agree completely.

Too often rude language is a tool to infer frankness and engender camaraderie, but it's simply manipulation. But no worries Leslie has been working on her law degree and will find herself in like company. The consulting trade has languished along with the decline of the pro photo market so she's moving on.

Another quote of her's regarding LuLa:

"Actually, I do know some real pros who try to participate, to raise the level and educate, but they rarely last and are always very frustrated at the attitudes shown on that site."

In case anyone has doubts, you'l find the thread here: http://prophotoforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=5295&highlight=#5295
The lawyers I know are pretty careful with language. Swearing is usually counter-productive, whether used with clients, with opponents or (particularly!) in court.

Now I've read that thread I realise why she's not interested in the forums here. There's little opportunity for profit.

Jeremy
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Schewe on January 08, 2012, 03:37:47 pm
One thing about LuLa that at least some of the people on that other forums doesn't understand is that LuLa is a much international in scope. Sure a lot of Americans are posting here but I would suspect posts from the USA would only make up about 50 to 60% of the posts here. That makes talking about a single country business status and dealing with clients different here. The PDN forum was even more insular dealing largely with eastern US/NYC business.

That's one of the refreshing things about LuLa...it's global by nature. I find it interesting to get various views.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: fredjeang on January 08, 2012, 03:59:37 pm
One thing about LuLa that at least some of the people on that other forums doesn't understand is that LuLa is a much international in scope. Sure a lot of Americans are posting here but I would suspect posts from the USA would only make up about 50 to 60% of the posts here. That makes talking about a single country business status and dealing with clients different here. The PDN forum was even more insular dealing largely with eastern US/NYC business.

That's one of the refreshing things about LuLa...it's global by nature. I find it interesting to get various views.

Yeah, but there is something missing in Lu-La : girls !

Where are the girls ?
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: K.C. on January 08, 2012, 08:36:30 pm
Women have far more sense.

I wouldn't go that far. They just have different obsessions and ways to spend their (our ?) money.
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: Rob C on January 09, 2012, 04:24:40 am
I wouldn't go that far. They just have different obsessions and ways to spend their (our ?) money.



Depends on the women: some are far from spendthrift - unless the type to find a suggar daddy who equates their 'love' with how much it costs, which of course, is back to male stupidity again. In my experience (not as a sugar daddy, neither rich nor desperate enough), women are far more canny and aware of the financial postition of themselves, their partnership/marriage/business. Unfortunately, even when they get to positions of high power - la Maggie - they are still sabotaged by the cupidity, selfishness, ego and pride of their male counterparts.

But Fred's right: we had some here - women - but they appear to have shrugged their pretty shoulders and left for sweeter places. (I was going to write 'pastures new', but realised that might be taken as insulting, so I didn't. And it wasn't meant to be, had it been so written.) My goodness, all this mental trouble and it's only 10.15 in the morning! How will I conquer the day? I know, more cellpix! That'll fix it; so calming!

Rob C
Title: Re: PDN Forum ---Why Has It Lost It's Luster
Post by: nightfire on January 09, 2012, 03:53:56 pm
The equipment and technique related obsessive compulsive disorder is primarily a male thang.

Women have far more sense.

Not all of them. I recently manage to talk a friend of mine into dumping her entry-level DSLR (with which she had been perfectly happy until then) for a semi-pro model. It wasn't really that hard... just showed her what mine could do while Christmas shopping season was on ;D She insisted on keeping her old kit lens though. We'll fix that later ;)