Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on November 03, 2011, 07:09:59 pm
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http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/canon-eos-c300-announced/
4K - 16.000 US$ - Jan 2012 availability.
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/03/the-canon-hollywood-event-liveblog/
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...
Coming Attractions: New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development
HOLLYWOOD, California, November 3, 2011/TOKYO, November 4, 2011 – Canon Inc. today announced that the company is developing a new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera. Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications. The model will be equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and, enabling the recording of 4K video* (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), will make possible the type of exceptional image quality and sublime imaging expression to be expected from the next generation of "EOS Movies."
The announcement coincides with the launch of the Cinema EOS System, marking Canon's full-fledged entry into the digital high-resolution production industry. The new professional digital cinematography system spans the lens, digital cinema camera and digital SLR camera product categories.
Further details regarding the new EOS digital SLR camera currently under development, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...
I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.
Cheers,
Bernard
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$20K - Canon is nuts.
a hard sell considering the Scarlet specs are better for the most part and almost half the price.
It's a pretty steep price for sure, but the EF version might make sense for those with existing EF lens collection so they don't have to invest in PL lenses.
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I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, I agree with you. I hope Canon have something else coming for the stills photographer in the high MPX count or I am going to be left feeling very much in the cold...
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RED Scarlet with EOS mount for $11,500, that's the alternative for Canon EF lens owners.
The package you need to work is at 14.000 US$.
http://www.red.com/store/scarlet/product/scarlet-x-al-canon-mount-package
I am not sure what will be included with the Canon for 16.000 US$ so it is difficult to compare. Anyway, you would need to add 3 lenses to have the actual price of the camera and they would probably end up being roughly at the same price point.
Another factor to consider is that we can probably believe Canon to have cameras in the hands of photographers in January 2012, while the Red has been delayed for a long time and I have not seen a firm shipment date anywhere on the Red site.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Scarlett's are in the warehouse. Shipping this month.
Michael
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Scarlett's are in the warehouse. Shipping this month.
Things are getting interesting.
Now is the time to start [motion] pixel peeping I guess.
Cheers,
Bernard
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it almost seems like red waited for canon to announce the price.....sighed with relief and blew up the market...
i am intrigued by the 4k canon sensor, something like a sigma thing going on here? 4 pixels to make one for better color?
either way....16000 for the body shipping in 2012 is not so good....maybe marty scorsese knows something we don't but the specs and plastic-ey look don't work for me at all...
the scarlet on the other hand makes the 1dx look overpriced....and late to the party.....
it also makes the new hasselblad h4dx (or whatever) body look ridiculously overpriced....
red scarlet canon mount 9750...with ssd and screen ready to shoot for about 12500.....shipping dec 1st...
oh...and the red does AF with canon lenses....unlike the c300....
the only interesting thing about that canon show was the planned c-dslr but considering what we know (c300 and 1dx) i really do not see how they will come up with something even close to scarlet in the next year even.....somehow i am not even excited about the idea of the 5dIII anymore....
i ordered the scarlet...it will be interesting to see if it will replace my 5dii for stills...
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I realise this is the cinema forum.. but I have high hopes for the Canon 'C' DSLR being a high mega pixel camera alternative to the 1DX.....(wishful thinking?) possibly.. will be interesting to see more on this camera when its details are fed to us over the coming weeks / months...
I seems to be a native 8mp sensor optimized for motion.
Cheers,
Bernard
I think you're right Josh. The sensor in the new "C" camera is full frame, not the 8 megapixel smaller sensor from the C300.
The photos of the prototype show a 1D X body type, but they are positioning it as a top tier video camera (better than the 1D X) and are using phrases like "high resolution". I'm guessing it's going to be positioned as a top tier "convergence" camera, with both better video than any other Canon DSLR and likely a higher megapixel sensor to go along with it.
I think it's a replacement for the 1Ds III, but renamed to better reflect Canon's increasing focus on video and the convergence of motion/still imagery.
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the only interesting thing about that canon show was the planned c-dslr but considering what we know (c300 and 1dx) i really do not see how they will come up with something even close to scarlet in the next year even.....somehow i am not even excited about the idea of the 5dIII anymore....
Me neither.
This new Canon falls IMO between a rock and a hard place. We knew something like that would happen because they where very involved in their cine lens line, but I would expect more compatibility. And it does looks plastic (although it may feels right in practise).
Out of topic: It really makes me boil this FCP7 monopoly in Red's official forum. I do not get the point. It's like the only NLE in this world is FCP7 and the only OS is Apple, and we know that if it's vastly truth in photography, it's far from being the case in motion. So if you are an Apple user and FCP editor, you have tons and tons of infos, tricks, debates on how-to with FCP7 and almost nothing with Avid, much less with Premiere, Edius and Windows or Linux platforms...
Something escapes to my understanding here.
Could it be that the profile of Avid or Smoke, Flame etc... users aren't really interested to post in the forums? or is-it a hidden commercial reason?
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Out of topic: It really makes me boil this FCP7 monopoly in Red's official forum. I do not get the point.
Fred,
A lot of most of the filmakers on the Red Forum are from the Indie world and FCP dominates that world due to cost and the fact it was the first NLE that really had modern functions we've all come to know.
If you've ever seen AVID or worse Media 100 pre FCP you'd know what I mean.
Also FCP is rather intuitive in comparison to most NLE's.
In LA and most of the editorial world, Premire is not a standard, same with Edius. Nearly every professional editor knows AVID though they also are well trained in FCP 7.
FCP X, well that's another matter and I find it hard to believe that Apple will let that market disappear, given the overwhelming response of the camera makers. I really do see a ramp up of FCP X soon, or even a rewrite, but that's just a guess.
I think most FCP 7 users would be happy to settle for 64 bit and less rendering time.
Remember, it's only been a decade where someone with a small budget could really edit professionally and now with the 5d2 and the New Scarlet, professional films can be shot on budgets that just were unheard of in the past.
IMO
BC
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I guess we all have to wait and see what/where/when the new scarlet appears and how good it is. I'm betting it's good.
It's funny how things have changed.
In the still world, larger professional cameras tripled in price compared to anything Canon announced, but RED goes the other way and offers more for less money.
Maybe there is something none of us know, but it seems like in motion it's a RED world.
We're placing our now, but we'll still buy an EPIC.
IMO
BC
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For more infos - there is a new website canon has launched especially for the 300 and lenses:
http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/
Doesn´t look to me as if they are joking, this is serious and for a first try............ Respect !
Give them 1-2 years and the rest of the industry will be having a BIG problem.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Fred,
A lot of most of the filmakers on the Red Forum are from the Indie world and FCP dominates that world due to cost and the fact it was the first NLE that really had modern functions we've all come to know.
If you've ever seen AVID or worse Media 100 pre FCP you'd know what I mean.
Also FCP is rather intuitive in comparison to most NLE's.
In LA and most of the editorial world, Premire is not a standard, same with Edius. Nearly every professional editor knows AVID though they also are well trained in FCP 7.
FCP X, well that's another matter and I find it hard to believe that Apple will let that market disappear, given the overwhelming response of the camera makers. I really do see a ramp up of FCP X soon, or even a rewrite, but that's just a guess.
I think most FCP 7 users would be happy to settle for 64 bit and less rendering time.
Remember, it's only been a decade where someone with a small budget could really edit professionally and now with the 5d2 and the New Scarlet, professional films can be shot on budgets that just were unheard of in the past.
IMO
BC
It's true.
I think I don't realise how bad things where before FCP, I did not knew that time and yeah, Media Composer has evolved, Avid listened and I only know what's there now, that's why it's difficult for me to understand the real apportation of FCP brought in its time. Now it's almost the opposite, it's rather short compare to the competition and needs a successor.
Talking about that, I also see a good future for FCPX. It's not ready but it will evolve for sure. Now it will depend on what they have in mind.
If you think about, it is maybe a more intuitive approach but I see a NLE with a classic flavor with FCPX. It's faster, more intuitive but I think it's not the tool we really need.
If we are going to get still-motion workflows, and cameras will allow us to do both, we need the softwares to be the same. Because it would be rather ironic to gain on one side and being stucked into the same mess we know now.
Softwares are not going as fast as cameras. Very soon we'll shoot all with one or 2 devices. In what we're going to edit? 10000 softwares and plug-ins and micro programs that convert etc... and a suite for stills and another suite for motion? I don't see it.
I think that we need something way more advanced than FCPX for the comming workflows.
In this, I see a RCX based software more in-line to what could be the next generation: multilenguage editors with no reso dependance. RCX looks like C1 or Lightroom, the base is good.
IMHO.
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A quick question- how does the REDCODE RAW differ from a regular RAW? Tech specs at red website say that Epic shoots RAW and Scarlet shoots REDCODE RAW.
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snip.......
Doesn´t look to me as if they are joking, this is serious and for a first try............ Respect !
Give them 1-2 years and the rest of the industry will be having a BIG problem.
snip.........
If I had placed bets last week, I would have thought Canon would come out with a 4k digital motion and still camera that shot raw, with auto focus and came in at 10 to 12 grand, maybe less.
I would have bet it would have a super 35 sensor and been on the shelves for the holidays.
For Red I would have placed a bunch of dead presidents, that they would have a 2/3's inch chip, autofocus, single zoom lens camera that sold for 18 to 20 grand with a deliery date tbd.
Man have things changed.
We don't know how any of these cameras are going to shoot, how dependable, how long they'll last in the market, but it amazes me that Canon has talked to everyone in the biz, from the suits to the guys with dirt under their fingernails and still got it so semi there rather than really there.
It just goes to show that RED wasn't just listening, they were inventing a new market while playing to a base. It also shows that RED was really taking notes to the guys that pull 16 hour days.
Tell me one DP that won't have one of these things in the case, or any still photographer getting serious with motion that won't see this as entry level heaven.
Good for RED and I hope Canon get's the message, starts making changes fast and competes, but can they do it by November?
IMO
BC
P.S. Looking at the LaForte movie which was done well, I thought the the color was way monotone. Maybe it was just a grading issue, maybe it was the directors choice, but the color on the web view wasn't anything I expected for a Canon debut.
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.
What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.
Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.
Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.
These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.
Michael
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.
What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.
Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.
Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.
These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.
Michael
I don't get it Michael.
We are (almost) in recession and budgets are cutted, even for major TV prods. The Sony 3K also shoots 1920X1280 HD at 1/3 the cost.
And the one who has a Scarlet can always shoot at this reso with room to crop.
It's not that this camera is to be compared to a dslr and the Red to a MF IMO, it's that it falls nowhere. It's in between. Not cheap enough, not powerfull enough, not better designed than the Red, probably no better IQ than what Pana and Sony are currently doing in their video line for much less money, less convergent than Red...
And your keyline (I copy-paste): except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice. That's super important.
Who's gona buy it apart of what can acheive marketing ?
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RECODE is REDCODE, for all RED cameras. Same difference. It's their raw video software.
What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.
Scarlet-X is simply an EPIC with lower maximum data rates. Everything else about it otherwise is identical to the EPIC. In other words a 4K motion picture camera that can also shoot 14MP stills at 12FPS.
Dynamic range, raw, etc are all the same as what Hollywood and others have been shooting major motion pictures with, except now one can get it for under $15,000, fully operational except for the Canon EOS lenses of your choice.
These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.
Michael
There ain't any IQ180's though at less than the price of a DSLR and I'll bet that a lot of video people will be saying that just like most 5DII owners rarely need or use the full 21 megapixels but want it there for when they do, even if you are shooting just documentary or advertising or whatever, if it's cheaper, why not just get more?
I don't do video though so I don't know if we're talking about a big change in workflow, useability and post work needed, perhaps raw video is more of a problem than a solution for some or can you shoot the scarlet in plain HD mode?
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$20K - Canon is nuts.
a hard sell considering the Scarlet specs are better for the most part and almost half the price.
It's funny how many people are thinking the Canon at $20K is so expensive. Arri's Alexa starts at $60K and is fast becoming the industry standard with 1080P output. What matters is the image quality, it's not only the specs. The Canon is priced in line with the Sony F3 camera, which I believe has the same specs. That said, I AM a RED fan and I agree the RED Scarlet has a lot to offer with 4K raw at 15K for the kit. But there is a large market for 1080P cameras. I think Canon will do well with this camera against the Sony F3 and Alexa. IMO - It all depends on the IQ.
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It's funny how many people are thinking the Canon at $20K is so expensive. Arri's Alexa starts at $60K and is fast becoming the industry standard with 1080P output. What matters is the image quality, it's not only the specs. The Canon is priced in line with the Sony F3 camera, which I believe has the same specs. That said, I AM a RED fan and I agree the RED Scarlet has a lot to offer with 4K raw at 15K for the kit. But there is a large market for 1080P cameras. I think Canon will do well with this camera against the Sony F3 and Alexa. IMO - It all depends on the IQ.
But precisely. The F3 is already embrassed by the industry, and the design of the Canon seems to be aimed to appeal to Red users. And that's where I don't get it. If you're a prod house that uses Sony, what will you make change the system for this Canon? And if you're tempted by Red, why would you buy this Canon?
I really think that this camera falls a little bit in a no-man's land.
In other words, does this camera has something the competition doesn't already have?
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But precisely. The F3 is already embrassed by the industry, and the design of the Canon seems to be aimed to appeal to Red users. And that's where I don't get it. If you're a prod house that uses Sony, what will you make change the system for this Canon? And if you're tempted by Red, why would you buy this Canon?
I really think that this camera falls a little bit in a no-man's land.
In other words, does this camera has something the competition doesn't already have?
If it's RED users Canon was after - I think they will be disappointed, as the two cameras they announced don't come close. It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)
Although, the Canon PL lenses may be a great move and of course Scarlet with a Canon EF mount is great for Canon too.
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OK, clearly I'm missing something here. Canon says this new camera is 4k with a 9MP sensor. Michael says it's just a full HD 1080 camera. What is it?
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"It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)"
They may ignore RED, but the reality the performance / price proposition offered by Scarlet-X totally unsettles the equation.
Most commercial and feature productions are shot with rented equipment. Visit a rental house in any major city in the world and see what they have available. RED Ones, RED Epics, Ari Alexas and some Sony S3s.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but the Scarlet is simply a better financial proposition for someone that wants to own rather then rent. And, then, when it's time to rent a second unit for a major production, just guess what will be more readily available.
The low end will shoot with 5D MKIIs, as they have been. Those shooting high-end commercials, music videos, and feature films will shoot with Alexas, EPICs and now Scarlets.
Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.
Michael
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"Canon Cinema EOS C300 has a Super35 CMOS ... sensor's native resolution of 3840×2160 (which is exactly double that of 1080P’s 1920×1080 resolution) isn’t a “traditional” 4K, and the camera outputs at 1080P. It reportedly has 1920 x 1080 pixels for red and blue, and 1920 x 2160 pixels for green." from another site.
Essentially the camera bins every 4 pixel square for one output pixel to create full HD. Perhaps future in-camera processing will permit full sensor output.
Got it. I misread their presser.
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Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.
One place it might fit in is people shooting a lot of 1080p for money
I have a 'feeling' that the camera will turn on and shoot, not drop frames or overheat and there will be fast service in your locale
An example .. I shoot a nikon D3 for stills - on paper (MP/$) Its a poor performer - but I know its a wonderful camera
I would buy an 'overpriced' large chip camera if it had great ergonomics, a superb lanc controller, including focus roll and zoom check focus, an 18-80 lens (2kg max) build in ND and a bunch of other stuff that made it work.. maybe AF
I only see half of that lot on the canon though
SamMM
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snip......
a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but ........snip
I'll think Canon shot themselves in the foot with the 5d2. I mean who is going to buy anything from Canon that costs over $3,000 knowing the 5d3 will eventually be out?
They're sure not going to pay 20 grand for a 2k video camera or 40 grand for a lens.
The Canon crowd shoots with a 5d2 and even with stills why spend $7,000 when you know the $3,000 better camera is coming at you?
But $20,000. When I saw the first pics I thought ok, they've build a Sony AF100 competitor and I thought it would be like $3,500 bucks or something like that, but 20 large.
No.
IMO
BC
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"It still seems like the rest of the industry keeps ignoring RED and just keeps hoping they will go away :-)"
They may ignore RED, but the reality the performance / price proposition offered by Scarlet-X totally unsettles the equation.
Most commercial and feature productions are shot with rented equipment. Visit a rental house in any major city in the world and see what they have available. RED Ones, RED Epics, Ari Alexas and some Sony S3s.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that a year from now Canon will have had little penetration of C300s at production rental shops. Sure, independent documentary producers will buy some, but the Scarlet is simply a better financial proposition for someone that wants to own rather then rent. And, then, when it's time to rent a second unit for a major production, just guess what will be more readily available.
The low end will shoot with 5D MKIIs, as they have been. Those shooting high-end commercials, music videos, and feature films will shoot with Alexas, EPICs and now Scarlets.
Where the C300 fits in at close to $20,000 eludes me.
Michael
I agree with your analysis.
Ps: the 5D2 wasn't only used by the low end. The most famous spanish cineast has shooted some takes with it, when he wanted some special angles on real set and the Canon was the only camera possible because of its size. Now with the reduced Red, probably the 5D will totally disappear at those levels.
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"Canon Cinema EOS C300 has a Super35 CMOS ... sensor's native resolution of 3840×2160 (which is exactly double that of 1080P’s 1920×1080 resolution) isn’t a “traditional” 4K, and the camera outputs at 1080P. It reportedly has 1920 x 1080 pixels for red and blue, and 1920 x 2160 pixels for green." from another site.
Essentially the camera bins every 4 pixel square for one output pixel to create full HD. Perhaps future in-camera processing will permit full sensor output.
Thanks for putting the numbers on the table!
Canon (like Sony) is suffering a bit in forum debates over resolution, by describing its video sensor resolution in the traditional video way of counting pixels that have full RGB information, while RED is using the "digital still camera" style of counting each single-color photosite in its Bayer CFA sensors. So in truth, the Scarlet-X's "4K" is very close to Canon's "1080p" in final video resolution. Sony's 1080p digital cine-cameras are close too, though I believe Sony's higher level cine-camera sensors have each HD format output pixel coming from a different arrangement of photosites, arranged something like
RGB
RGB
with vertical binning in each color.
The resolution differences will be particularly small in the final digital projection in cinemas, which for now is likely to be done with a [Sony] 2K projector, and 2K with all three colors at each pixel is enough for what these sensors are offering, until you get to RED's more expensive models with "5K" video output.
P. S. The "video DSLR" than Canon hinted at, with 36x24mm sensor for stills but with its video output using a 20% width crop of that for its 4K output, seems to have a pixel count that fits the EOS-1Dx specs. So maybe it will use the same basic sensor, with different output wiring and processing. Maybe keeping the pixel count at a level that works well for 4K video output (or aggregating into 1920x1080 full color pixels) was a design constraint for this latest Canon 36x24mm sensor.
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Well i have been waiting to see how this would work out for a long time.
I thought the canon annoucement was underwhelming . No 60 fps at 1080 ? No autofocus ?
Cheap looking plastic body covered with buttons ?
I think the new cine lenses look great though. But, the price seems completely out of line .
6000.00 for a prime?
I think Red understands the market much more than canon. The still/motion era is here.
For me, there's only one way and that's red .
www.tjphoto.net
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after thinking about all this a bit, the canon makes some sense...
the only reason to go with red (any of them) is the option of raw video, which provides still shooters (like most people here) in a commercial/advertising/fashion field with raw still frames of the video footage shot....like cooter says, scrub through the footage and pick a frame...makes a lot of sense for some of us....
the c300 goes in a different direction....most TV, movie, documentary, tv commercial,...production could not care less about raw or still frames....they want super clean, higher iso (keeps production costs down), maybe 60 or 120fps...all in great looking HD....that is why most DPs LOOOOOVE the alexa....when you are shooting with 4 people hovering around the camera it really does not matter how much the camera rents for....
i think the c300 goes right up against the alexa....no AF, super clean, sharp HD with accurate color....at a very reasonable price...the only issue might be the frame rate...
the scarlet is somewhere completely different, it does many more things and probably/maybe, in the end since it all ends up in HD anyway, the c300 (or alexa ) footage looks better....maybe...
the one thing about the scarlet is that in order to get the full size of the sensor it has to be shot at 5k which only does 12fps....at 4k it is already cropping into the sensor, at 2k 60fps we are looking at a 16mm camera.....something to consider....
so in order to really use the sensor, get video (not 12fps) and to get the raw stills the ad wants, 4k 30fps is the only want to shoot the scarlet....which eats up storage...
laforet mentioned that they shot the entire film with 2 c300 on a 500gb hard drive....that is also something to consider....
in the end there still is no perfect camera for all....i am still not sure canon priced the c300 right...but i would not have bought it for half of the price...for me the raw frames make the red the only game in town....and for someone lusting after the alexa the c300 might deliver at less then a 3rd of the price....
one thing is for sure....canon is in this for the long haul and they are selling enough other stuff to keep this little project alive for a long time....
and as soon as they figure out a way to pull 24 shots/sec raw off a dslr sensor red is toast....the 1dx does 18fps? (on a 35mm sensor) that is 50% more then the scarlet at 5k.....
i don't see why the announced/unannounced c-dslr should not do 24fps on a smaller sensor....
the one thing that blows my mind is that the same week hasselblad announces their new body without sensor, same look, no new features...for 7000$...who buys this stuff anymore?
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It's a good and interesting argumentation Paul.
I think that you're also right in the points you developped.
Yeah, I think they may take Arri clients more than Red.
And about DPs and the alexa...yes, DPs are impressed by anything that make the set looks like an hollywood plateau and they know Arri is cine. Take those DPs on a blind test with an Hacked GH2 and I'd like to see the reactions.
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Yes Tim - the still /motion era is here.
I just wonder why this erupts such negative comments - did you all take a look at the http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/media-gallery.php ?
especially the "making of " is giving a lot of answers, which are mostly "refinement in detail".
And yes, I think this is pointed towards the Alexa. which triples the price at 60k - so actually this 20k is a bargain !
If the High Iso´s work as described this WILL keep production costs down, available light highend "Pro Filmmaking" - ......on video.
Very, very clever............
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Why can Red make the scarlet auto focus with canon EF lenses, but canon can't ?? I don't get it.
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Yes Tim - the still /motion era is here.
. . . snip
Stefan
I can tell you why.
You answered it in your first sentence.
Canon Hyped this thing like the second coming and in reality showed up with a 2k video camera that has lots of little buttons that isn't gonna make any kind of still image.
It may be good, it may be great, but I don't think anyone with the production money of the Alexa is gonna really care if they save $600 a day on rentals, not at that stage.
You know, I guess some people will buy it, some will rent it, probably more will try it, personally I don't care, but it sure looks to me like Canon is trying to cover market territory and keep stills and video in separate rooms.
IMO
BC
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>>>>>>but it sure looks to me like Canon is trying to cover market territory and keep stills and video in separate rooms.>>>>>
absolutely, with this 300C camera.
But then there is this other announcement of the DSLR Type 4k which should give RED the headache.
because this one will be in the Scarlett X range and Taking pictures (with 18 mpix and autofocus) .......
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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the alexa is a 2k camera and hollywood loves it...and hollywood could not care less about stills...
but you are absolutely correct, the deciding factor between alexa and c300 in actual production will not be price....it will be the image on the screen.....and i guess the c300 delivers? DR?
someone sued about AF....ask anyone even close to a camera on a production set in LA what they think about AF...i guess that is what canon did....and left it out to make the "purists" happy....
in all honesty: AF and film making is tricky....and there are a lot of focus pullers in LA....
strage as it seems, the c300 is not made for wedding shooters....
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do any of these new cameras ( scarlet or canon ) have a built in ND filter?
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Billy
According to the European Canon Professional Network "The EOS C300 and C300 PL cameras feature built-in ND filters. A four-layer system is used offering three densities – 0.6 (2-stop), 1.2 (4-stop) and 1.8 (6-stop) – with ND0 being clear.". For other info see http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/canon_cinema_eos_system_explained.do (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/canon_cinema_eos_system_explained.do) and http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/cinema_eos.do (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/cinema_eos.do).
Regards
Nigel
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Hi all (new to LL forum)!
All I can say is that we will see lot of interesting stuff in video world. Somehow I'm glad to see new Canon products, and I'm sure with their next generation models, it would be a different story...
I don't agree that the Canon 5d2 is low end machine, especially as a larger sensor, more or less all the other cameras on the market. New season of House M.D. was made exactly with 5d2.
I think that both C300 and Scarlet-X will not have success on a professional market, especially because most of large studios will use the new Sony F65, for broadcast Ikegami, and what about 3d, probably Panasonic...
Greetings and sorry for my bad English!
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I don't agree that the Canon 5d2 is low end machine, especially as a larger sensor, more or less all the other cameras on the market. New season of House M.D. was made exactly with 5d2.
Not a season: only the last episode of previous season of House was shot with 5D2.
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What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.
Without AF and AE, I doubt it. The form factor is wrong. The codec is a major disappointment (when compared to what the F3 is capable of). If I had to choose a Canon, what's wrong with the 1DX?
These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.
Michael
Oh but they are in the same league. The video and cinema industry standards are tightly integrated, unlike still-photography. Canon is aiming a full HD camera with an unacceptable codec (at 8-bit 422) at $20K - to the cinema crowd! That is preposterous. I just have a feeling that Canon has something else up their sleeve. At least in the video world, this camera is very un-canon like. It can't even AF its own lenses, but Red can!
Also, the Scarlet is a replacement to the Red One - but what about Red's commitment to "obsolescence obsolete"? A basic Scarlet set up and ready to shoot (without lenses) is $20K. A full-fledged cinema production can afford better, and an indie production cannot afford these rates, even renting (if history is any indicator).
Neither the Scarlet nor the C300 look nearly as good as the F3 or SI-2K for the micro-budget indie cinema crowd. They don't need 4K, or pseudo-4K. And neither of these cameras look as good as the Alexa or Epic for the low-budget indie crowd and high-budget Hollywood crowd.
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Word on the street has it that the powers that be in movie and TV land met with camera makers on ways to save money.
If a 5d2 will work and save them millions a year in production, with lower wattage, smaller crews, higher iso, faster post production, editing, grading, effects, they'll force it.
If the Scarlet does it they'll go that way also.
Hollywood is in it for the money and the savings in production, whether it's from a Scarlet, an Epic a 5d2 or this new Canon multiplied times hundreds if not thousands of productions is big money.
You have to realize that the days of blockbuster and $25 rental fees are gone, now it's all you can eat streaming and Hollywood feels that pinch.
Soon you'll see google TV going after the cable and satellite business and pay for view. Large margins get smaller with every change in technology, plus the economy doesn't help matters.
Gone are the days that everyone buys the latest lcd screen for the den, (look at Sony's last few quarters of red ink).
Regardless of California's incentive there is ton's of runaway production to right to work states to lower crew costs and I think most people would be very surprised that even on large budget production, how tightly every crew member, actor, extra, outside supplier is negotiated.
For some there still is gold in Hollywood, but it's not on the studio floor.
So if anyone thinks that every part of production is not scrutinized there not looking at it in a business sense.
We all hear the stories of television "still" advertising shooting 15 show campaigns in a day and lately I've seen more and more movie posters that look to me like retouched screen grabs from the motion imagery.
So, bottom line is the bottom line and if the Scarlet performs and shoots a close to 5k still file while shooting 4:4:4 high def motion then that will be the camera. No Hollywood probably won't dictate that a DP use a specific brand, but they will dictate the bottom line and the production company will have to find a way to get there.
It's the same with advertising. My clients do care if a file is useable in any media, they don't care what the camera costs as long as I don't go over that bottom line. If I want to "donate" $200,000 in cameras to the project there fine with that, if I can do it with $40,000, or even $6,000 worth of cameras and meet their objectives they're fine with that also.
I personally think this new Canon falls in never never land. It's not an Alexa, not even a RED, it's a prosumer camera with expensive lenses.
As Michael said it's not going to flood the rental market, it's price vs. performance doesn't jive with the new economy.
The Scarlet does, the next 5d might even be closer.
IMO
BC
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snip... it's price vs. performance doesn't jive with the new economy.
The Scarlet does, the next 5d might even be closer.
IMO
BC
That's something I hardly read in those discussions, and I'm quite surprise. Very few people are talking about the economy reality and it's linked to everything, gear included.
Is it taboo, or what?
It's like it doesn't exist and almost only Cooter is pointing that fact over and over again.
I don't get it. Either some are living in another planet or maybe I am living in another galaxy...but I can say this:
I live in a wealphy district of Madrid. Since a few years, and it's growing at the speed of light, when supermarkets close their doors, you see many families searching food in the garbages. Families that do not look homeless, and there are a lot. More and more people are begging in the street, it's to a point that I can't go to have my morning coffee without at least 2 people asking for money, tabacco...and the bar is just in front of the house.
I'm working more than before and I'm payed less. More exactly, if I want the same money as before I have to work more. And with the same money I do less.
Models, stylists etc...are earning less, and even models with international reputation. Brands and even luxury brands are not blowing the money away on any wim project like before. They cut in all parts.
6 months ago, I had an interesting conversation with an international model, married with a Real Madrid football team player: she told me that the agent is putting pressure like: "if you don't take this at that price X is ready to do it"...you know, this is the real world.
And not only that. We have to know more and being more multitask or you work less.
And some very good photographers with reputation are having hard time to maitain their crews and in a lot of cases they lost many clients in favor of younger and cheaper pros.
I read here or there, that Hollywood couldn't care less about budget, like if all was unlimited like years ago and that they don't give a bloody damn about costs because it's the Midas king of imagery. I doubt it honestly in most of the cases. The reality here is very different. Here I mean in Europe, and Europe is not that much different from the USA.
I don't know any client or prod house that is not watching carefully now the costs of production and post-production.
So to conclude, I don't think that we can talk about equipment now without this parameter in mind.
If we have to work more, faster, and being more multiutasks, we are doing it unfortunatly with equipment, and specially in the PP area, that are designed for another time. A time where money was not an issue, a time where 50 people where doing what 5 are doiung now. We went from an extreme to another and it will takes time before the center will be reached.
That is why it is so crucial we end to have softwares more intuitive, faster and efficient. Same as cameras etc...Because all the extra cost of long and long hours of editing the old way is not rewarded economically.
As BC said, those days are gone when _
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I'm not a doom and gloom guy and I know this biz has always been hard.
It's an elective and i knew after about 15 hours in this business that it wasn't going to be easy at any level.
Still, this is a different economy at a different time.
I firmly believe it things were cranking like in 2007 nobody would be talking about digital cinema, convergence and the I-pad, heck any form of digital publishing would be limited to forums like this and social media would be e-mail, not facebook, twitter, whatever.
So, with this in mind I'm not complaining i just know that things are not the way they were, no reason to worry about the past, just go forward.
Now when it comes to editorial, I can cut, but I can't stay up 4 nights a week until 4 am to hit deadlines and changes. I can but my business will suffer as I wear a lot of hats and have a lot to do, from paying gigs to personal work.
So, once again I started shopping as we have 8 videos in house. For the price it was just more effective to build a new suite, hire a good editor at a fair price and get to work.
Now, our business is growing, we're going to add more people and probably add more space when I find that special deal for that perfect place.
We won't be only photographers, or film makers, or effects, editorial, conceptualists, camera operators, stylists, designers . . . we do it all because as of today we are doing it all.
But Fred like you, were working, though working harder than ever.
So what do you do? Look back or go forward?
I prefer to go forward and am more creatively excited than ever on the projects we're producing.
But one thing is clear. 1999, 2007, or today nobody in Hollywood threw money around like it was water. I know a lot about the real world through my contacts and I know a fair amount about the system and rich folk don't get rich by giving it away.
So when you hear about 400 million dollar blockbusters, remember about 1/2 of that is advertising, a lot is in pre and post production, most of it is spread around multiple producers that get the funding, so by the time they hit the streets or the studio, the budgets are tight.
Always have been.
Now how does this relate to cameras? Well, in my mind the Scarlet is the good middle ground, so we placed our order today, my two RED ones are still cranking and for stills, I have my Canons, Nikons, Leica, Contax with Phase backs and might go to another canon, maybe the 1dx, though not for video.
DP's hired by the week, day or month, might go for the Alexa because it's a rental and they don't think that comes out of their pocket, though in reality the budget is the budget and it always comes out of somebody's pocket.
No client or head of a production company walks down the hallway and asks how much were the camera and lens rentals. They just ask what's the number we're spending to shoot it?
Actually yesterday when we heard the Canon news we got on the list, then read the specs and promptly got off the list and called our guy at RED.
IMO
BC
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Yes. Folks do not get rich by giving it away.
That's true.
But I do not know what was the panorama in the US 6 or so years ago, but I remember when I was working with advertising agencies, everybody was really throwing money from the windows.
I remember 10 or more creatives earning 5000 bucks a months absolutly useless, not doing anything and with inflated egos only beatable by a Stalin or a Berlusconi, because the real creatives and the ones that where working where always the same.
Have you ever seen those construction workers on a road. Ten people are watching and 2 are digging. Something like that.
Each time there was a new gear released, it was immediatly bought. I remember the huge rentals bills for even average agencies that wanted to be fashion and where spending fortunes in design, costly webpages, luxury hotels...all those excess sunk.
Now, I'm also feeling that it is a different exciting time and I'm moving forward with enthousiasm.
I even think that the crisis is putting things in order and something really interesting is coming.
As always in messy transitions, the ones who look backward will probaly sink and the ones who look forward will prosper.
In fact, I've never enjoyed as much as now.
Cheers.
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That's something I hardly read in those discussions, and I'm quite surprise. Very few people are talking about the economy reality and it's linked to everything, gear included.
Is it taboo, or what?
It's like it doesn't exist and almost only Cooter is pointing that fact over and over again.
I don't get it. Either some are living in another planet or maybe I am living in another galaxy...but I can say this:
I live in a wealphy district of Madrid. Since a few years, and it's growing at the speed of light, when supermarkets close their doors, you see many families searching food in the garbages. Families that do not look homeless, and there are a lot. More and more people are begging in the street, it's to a point that I can't go to have my morning coffee without at least 2 people asking for money, tabacco...and the bar is just in front of the house.
I'm working more than before and I'm payed less. More exactly, if I want the same money as before I have to work more. And with the same money I do less.
Models, stylists etc...are earning less, and even models with international reputation. Brands and even luxury brands are not blowing the money away on any wim project like before. They cut in all parts.
6 months ago, I had an interesting conversation with an international model, married with a Real Madrid football team player: she told me that the agent is putting pressure like: "if you don't take this at that price X is ready to do it"...you know, this is the real world.
And not only that. We have to know more and being more multitask or you work less.
And some very good photographers with reputation are having hard time to maitain their crews and in a lot of cases they lost many clients in favor of younger and cheaper pros.
I read here or there, that Hollywood couldn't care less about budget, like if all was unlimited like years ago and that they don't give a bloody damn about costs because it's the Midas king of imagery. I doubt it honestly in most of the cases. The reality here is very different. Here I mean in Europe, and Europe is not that much different from the USA.
I don't know any client or prod house that is not watching carefully now the costs of production and post-production.
So to conclude, I don't think that we can talk about equipment now without this parameter in mind.
If we have to work more, faster, and being more multiutasks, we are doing it unfortunatly with equipment, and specially in the PP area, that are designed for another time. A time where money was not an issue, a time where 50 people where doing what 5 are doiung now. We went from an extreme to another and it will takes time before the center will be reached.
That is why it is so crucial we end to have softwares more intuitive, faster and efficient. Same as cameras etc...Because all the extra cost of long and long hours of editing the old way is not rewarded economically.
As BC said, those days are gone when _
fred, although in general you are right that the times of endless budgets are over, there still exists clients who are willed to pay a lot for getting the best they can get.
and the situation in spain isnt as it is in greece, but also not as in rest of europe or in us.i live with my famliy in the south of spain ( my wife is spanish ) meanwhile my office is in germany and i can tell you the situation in spain's situation is reminding me more and more like in the third world ( as was the behavor in the last 15 years to throw out money for incredible crazy things as/ and to build 2 million houses too much which are all empty now, with a very corrupt and also very ineffective government, fiscal authorities. it
was a bonanza as i havent seen it nowhere and which reminds to brazil in the 70s. the price therefor will have to be paid and thats what you describe. we in andalucia have over 60% unemployd young people between 17 and 25 years old, search a develloped country with similar numbers, even greece is far better.
thats not europe, and hopefully as well not the future of europe. situation in germany or in france and in many other countries is quite different, so is the economy. lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.
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You have to realize that the days of blockbuster and $25 rental fees are gone, now it's all you can eat streaming and Hollywood feels that pinch.
Soon you'll see google TV going after the cable and satellite business and pay for view. Large margins get smaller with every change in technology, plus the economy doesn't help matters.
Don't believe everything the MPAA is telling you about piracy killing the movie industry. 2009 was Hollywood's best year financially (http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/15/hollywood-has-its-best-year-ever-in-2009-but-piracy-is-killing-the-business/), and 2010 was the second (http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/01/07/2010-box-office-wrap-hollywood-has-second-best-year-ever/). This result in a downturn economy.
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lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.
Inability of northern Europe to manage the profligacy of southern Europe? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? We are not the daddy with the money to come to the rescue when their prodigal son gets out of hand.
It's like someone went on a years-long spending spree racking up credit card debts, and when the credit card company comes to claim their money, they'll just tell them to ask the people down the street - they are the ones with the money and prudency.
On the other hand, that's exactly seems to be the expectation, so the concept is not so ridiculous to politicians.
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fred, although in general you are right that the times of endless budgets are over, there still exists clients who are willed to pay a lot for getting the best they can get.
and the situation in spain isnt as it is in greece, but also not as in rest of europe or in us.i live with my famliy in the south of spain ( my wife is spanish ) meanwhile my office is in germany and i can tell you the situation in spain's situation is reminding me more and more like in the third world ( as was the behavor in the last 15 years to throw out money for incredible crazy things as/ and to build 2 million houses too much which are all empty now, with a very corrupt and also very ineffective government, fiscal authorities. it
was a bonanza as i havent seen it nowhere and which reminds to brazil in the 70s. the price therefor will have to be paid and thats what you describe. we in andalucia have over 60% unemployd young people between 17 and 25 years old, search a develloped country with similar numbers, even greece is far better.
thats not europe, and hopefully as well not the future of europe. situation in germany or in france and in many other countries is quite different, so is the economy. lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.
You're absolutly right.
Spain lived way above it real level and the economy was for the most part speculative. I totally agree: this is NOT europe, it's the mediteranean mess. So the consequences of the crisis are way more serious in Spain. Absolutly.
This is far from being France, England or Germany.
At the same time, the tendecy remains truth, with more or less extreme situations according to where you live. But when I call collegues in Paris, they all say that they have to work more for less, that production and post budgets are not as easy to obtain as before and generally people are not willing to risk etc...I can tell you that the overall message I get from France is rather negative.
Not as bad as Spain, no, but overall negative and pessimistic. The german economy is not growing a lot either. Numbers aren't very high. Here we are almost in recession, and we will be, while in Germany the economy will grow slower as expected.
But yeah, the southern mess is well...what you describe. Pathetic, and this country deserves what is happening. And the irony is that there are very good professionals in Spain, but they just don't understand how to make it work. I still asking myself why the hell I'm staying in Madrid. The only answer is that I became easy.
Sun, gorgeous and easy girls in bikinis and cool life with the german money are not making economy. Yes, Spain reminds me of Brazil in many aspects.
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Thanks for putting the numbers on the table!
Canon (like Sony) is suffering a bit in forum debates over resolution, by describing its video sensor resolution in the traditional video way of counting pixels that have full RGB information, while RED is using the "digital still camera" style of counting each single-color photosite in its Bayer CFA sensors. So in truth, the Scarlet-X's "4K" is very close to Canon's "1080p" in final video resolution. Sony's 1080p digital cine-cameras are close too, though I believe Sony's higher level cine-camera sensors have each HD format output pixel coming from a different arrangement of photosites, arranged something like
RGB
RGB
with vertical binning in each color.
The resolution differences will be particularly small in the final digital projection in cinemas, which for now is likely to be done with a [Sony] 2K projector, and 2K with all three colors at each pixel is enough for what these sensors are offering, until you get to RED's more expensive models with "5K" video output.
P. S. The "video DSLR" than Canon hinted at, with 36x24mm sensor for stills but with its video output using a 20% width crop of that for its 4K output, seems to have a pixel count that fits the EOS-1Dx specs. So maybe it will use the same basic sensor, with different output wiring and processing. Maybe keeping the pixel count at a level that works well for 4K video output (or aggregating into 1920x1080 full color pixels) was a design constraint for this latest Canon 36x24mm sensor.
Hi BJL
It is my understanding that the Canon C 300 is different to RED.
Canon use 4 sensor pixels to generate one full colour site. This gives high colour accuracy but lower resolution.
RED use each pixel for resolution and use Demosaicing for colour to generate a 1 to 1 pixel to colour site. This gives double the resolution but poorer colour fidelity.
I do not know the data rates of each camera exactly but if Canon are close or better than RED on data rate (compressed data flow) then the Canon will have the edge on compression losses if all things were equal since the RED RAW would be trying to do four times the work to get double the resolution. I am sure RED will be able to say what their rate is and how efficient their compression is. In any case each has it's trade offs. One more obvious difference is the RED uses 444 and the Canon uses 422.
I suspect the RED will look sharper but the Canon will still generate great Cinema since they have no Demosaicing issues.
I agree with you, I think people are being hard on the Canon. It may be better than they relise as they are thinking of lower performing 2K solutions. The Canon sensor does capture 4K it just puts colour first and becomes 2K in the most effective way without any loss. That I think is a great solution and for some Pro work flows will be what some people will want.
If you record a drum sound 24bits will give you a ample dynamic recording window to capture the lowest to the highest sound. To broadcast that sound you only need a 16bit system. It will only sound better on a 24bit system because the converters are higher spec, not because your ears need the dynamics. I think Canon have created the same system. It captures lots of information and converts into an efficient broadcast medium.
I am not so sure we NEED 4K. If the work flow becomes cheap enough in future we will all use it no doubt but we may not NEED it. Cinema is about telling a story. The human eye can be distracted by detail, poor colour or excessive noise. I think Canon have created a great product and it will work for those that are not chasing inaccurate line detail at the expense of colour.
For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR. Throw in F8 auto focus and some bird photogs will buy it too. I wonder if Canon are trying to kill two bird's with one stone ... LOL
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>>>>For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR.>>>>
Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?
About the 300C: I can only say - I have taken a look at the 300C sample films on Vimeo now with 1080p direct out from my computer to my 50 " Pana Plasma (ICC calibrated) and this is looking darn good. Especially all the available light stuff is amazing, very smooth, very lively -I would say very much like 35mm film, if this is what many are looking after.
I do videos with my converted 5D2 (antialiasing and UV/IR Cut removed)using our Zeiss Superrotators and some more Zeiss Contax glass with it , but this 300C is a whole different quality.
>>>>>RED use each pixel for resolution and use Demosaicing for colour to generate a 1 to 1 pixel to colour site. This gives double the resolution but poorer colour fidelity.
I do not know the data rates of each camera exactly but if Canon are close or better than RED on data rate (compressed data flow) then the Canon will have the edge on compression losses if all things were equal since the RED RAW would be trying to do four times the work to get double the resolution<<<<<<
The data from the 300C looks very clean and noisefree, a bit like the Sigma SD1 compared to a bayer scheme output. I still think this idea is pretty clever, as long as there is no real peripheral chain supporting 4K for a broad usage this approach may be the best compromise. And those who want real 4 K for Movie productions will probably not use this camera anyway.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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>>>>For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR.>>>>
Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?
I don't think that it's going to be better than the 300C, that just wouldn't make sense for the product to be that expensive and Canon clearly is emphasizing the 300C as their top video camera. The 1 Series Cinema DSLR can't even use the new cinema zoom lenses since the 4k video is APS-H and those only cover Super35/APS-C. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 30-40 megapixel camera, but the sensor is probably going to be some sort of compromise between still and video and therefore not quite as good as the C300 which was built for video from the ground up.
Maybe what Canon is doing is setting the stage for the "5D III" down the road. If they put all the video features in the 1D Cinema, then they can make the video in the 5D III a more stripped down basic feature, even if it had the same high resolution sensor. That would force all the video SLR guys to move up to the 1D Cinema rather than buying a cheaper 5D III.
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We can talk about which camera is better, or not until the sun melts, but the bottom line is Canon made a camera that they aimed at the Alexa as if RED didn't exist.
You know, people talk about Mr. Jannard as if he's "just" a salesman and he is a very good salesman, but he has built a following around his company that is beyond loyal.
He's also built a culture in Hollywood that no camera company has done and no new camera company would ever contemplate.
How many camera companies own a Hollywood studio that anyone can walk into and maybe that doesn't matter to the most end users, but it does matter when you see the investment you have some culture that RED will be around for a long time and in todays financial world none are surprised when we here of another big brand disappear.
I think Mr. Jannard is the Steve Jobs of the camera world, because here we have one of the world's wealthiest men, talking to grunts like us directly.
Red may miss deadlines, sometimes be vague, prior to the Scarlet have the strangest sales system ever devised, but they do communicate from the top to the bottom and they have listened to their user base, not just a few select individuals.
I'm not an engineer and don't care if a file is made from 4 pixels or one, I just know the RED file for me is pretty. It's that simple and we've made stills from it that are pretty . . . it's that simple.
I'm not selling RED because I pay retail, though I know the benefit of raw when shooting multiple cams in fast settings with multiple setups
Sure we set the cameras up to look good, but if we're 400 degrees off on kelvin, or one monitor doesn't exactly match the other, we don't worry because RED CineX works fast in post and is easy to set color to match. Like Chris says if you used C-1, you can use Red Cine X with about 30 minutes of learning curve.
Last week's announcements floored me. I think all of us kind of thought Canon would come out with a raw shooting, 4k, autofocus camera with it's own version of a color grading suite, for half the price of the RED, that would be on the shelves in weeks. In other words a RED killer.
Instead RED came out with a Canon mount, autofocus camera, with upgrades to it's color grading suite for less price than the Canon that will be on sale in weeks. In other words a Canon Killer.
As a disclaimer I'll admit I'm biased because I love the RED file and both my ghetto RED One's have been bullet proof around the world, in rain, freezing cold, 100F heat and 100% humidity.
They're not perfect but they've made me money and opened up a whole new world of what we can creatively produce.
IMO
BC
On another note, I don't want noise free smooth, I want useable film like noise.
I think the 5d2 is too smooth and color is difficult and it doesn't look like video it just looks different than Canons still file.
http://www.russellrutherford.com/rundsmc.jpg
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Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?
The Canon EOS C 300 has an internal cooling system and remains splash resistant. Pro Users will also expect it not to overheat. Pre release users have confirmed performance in desert heat.
An EOS DSLR is primarily a still Cam, by adding video and the ''C'' badge they may still limit it in some ways. They already mention a different compression will be used and it is unlikely they will allow it to do more than 29m 59sec recording as that would add a lump to the cost as it would then be a pro video Cam in the legal sense for EURO regulations.
I suspect other subtle differences and equally it will take advantage of the latest processing power the photo division can muster. It is obvious that there are two different teams in Canon and the guy behind the 5D2 mentions having to create his own heat in Canon to get video in a DSLR accepted as an R&D need. Canon R&D got the message ... LOL
I suspect what ever they make it will be around the price of the new 1D X. I note the ''C'' DSLR had no EOS 1 logo. This could become the EOS 3 C.
Incidentally, I think they call the ''Canon EOS C 300'' a ''300'' as the Cinema lenses have a 300 degree focus throw.
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About the 300C: I can only say - I have taken a look at the 300C sample films on Vimeo now with 1080p direct out from my computer to my 50 " Pana Plasma (ICC calibrated) and this is looking darn good. Especially all the available light stuff is amazing, very smooth, very lively -I would say very much like 35mm film, if this is what many are looking after.
I do videos with my converted 5D2 (antialiasing and UV/IR Cut removed)using our Zeiss Superrotators and some more Zeiss Contax glass with it , but this 300C is a whole different quality.
Exactly. This is what most people are missing. How the end user will view the product. Film was an analog process and all such processes needed to be of high standard as second and third gen copies would suffer loss of detail. Digital Video and Digital Cinema does not have to equal exposed 35mm Cine Film, it has to satisfy the uses at the point of consumption. If the new Canon can look good on a big home screen and some say it looked great at the Canon event in Hollywood, then 4K will be useless for those that view at 2K or accept 2K where 4K could be used. It makes no sense to loose colour fidelity shooting for 4K and then drop the gain in resolution and let users consume 2K. Most content will not need to be archived. Taste and Fashion moves on and who cares that old 4K can be displayed to the masses 10 year later when they no longer want to view it. If the content was that great then 2K will be fine. Everyone loves a grainy black and white, let things age, don't suffer uneeded resolution now if you can shoot better 2K.
Canon know that some will still want 4K so for the wannabe market the new EOS ''?'' C makes sense. As one sensor designer said, numbers sell camera's not image quality.
I do not doubt Canon will do full Pro 4K, it is in their road map too.
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Sony want to be the number 1 sensor maker of the world
Hollywood will find this interesting too:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fegami.blog.so-net.ne.jp%2F2011-10-28
Back to the Canon, their video / cinema marketing team have not mentioned if the pixels on the new C 300 are with gapless micro lens or on the same thin wafer (which also improves signal to noise) as the new 1D X sensor. I hope it is at the price they are asking...
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I had to laugh when i read bcooters post about Hollywood as i drove past major Hollywood production down my street in Portland.
they are shooting a network series here called grimm . Guys running around with Alexias all over the place.
The rentals houses here are buying Epics and Alexias as fast as they can get them.
Do they shoot anything in Hollywood anymore?
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I had to laugh when i read bcooters post about Hollywood as i drove past major Hollywood production down my street in Portland.
they are shooting a network series here called grimm . Guys running around with Alexias all over the place.
The rentals houses here are buying Epics and Alexias as fast as they can get them.
Do they shoot anything in Hollywood anymore?
Very good point...
Low light capability = don't really need to be in a sunshine state... Welcome to Hollyworld... IE any where you likes...
Another strong point of the new Canon...
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Well i thinks this is gonna do it for me : http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66048-DSMC-Leica-M-Mount
I cant believe what a good investment buying Leica has been. I cant wait to shoot a my noctilux on a scarlet.
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I thought the canon annoucement was underwhelming . No 60 fps at 1080 ? No autofocus ?
is different as
Why can Red make the scarlet auto focus with canon EF lenses, but canon can't ?? I don't get it.
It's not about whether Canon can or cannot add autofocus, it's that the people who will be using this item do not require it. The Scarlet is different as it's also a stills capable camera so AF will be used then, the Canon is a cine only camera, so will be focused manually just like other cine cameras.
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red is not even on canons horizon in terms of size/sales.....yes, red has lit a fire under everybody's a.. but the alexa has shown what people really want....
i ordered the scarlet in the first hours after the announcement....the c300 is the totally wrong camera for me but now that the dust has settled i am not so sure anymore who has won or who will win...or if there is even a competition here....these are two completely different cameras....but the c300 does what it is supposed to do very well (it seems...)...whereas the scarlet...not so sure anymore....
12fps at 5k? what is that supposed to be? i thought the whole point of shooting red is to shoot raw and pick a frame later....well 12 fps is not motion and as a still camera it provides a strange format 14mpix file from a smallish sensor....
leaves 4k....shoots a solid 24fs (even 30) in 4k, plenty of frames to choose from....but these files are now a very wide 9mpix file....so if i need a vertical i end up with roughly a 5x7 at 300dpi....probably still enough for print but not ideal at all...corbis won't accept that file...
i really want 60fps...which brings me to 2k....at this point the raw frames are way to small and the sensor at this point uses an area smaller then 16mm film....
so in reality the scarlet is a solid 4k film camera....no fancy slo-mo, hdrx cuts the frame rate in half again, they might get it to work for 4k but it is doubtful....
the camera shoots a solid 4k at 30fps...
all the advantages of the red are with 5k at 120fps which is what the epic has but it is quite a bit more and 5k 120fps need a little more processing power and storage.....
so until i can justify the epic, i will look elsewhere....
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Paul,
I think that in terms of convergence we're not really there yet and compromises in one way or another are still the reality.
12 fps is cool for certain effect, and vastly use in animation. But nobody is bringing to date a full 24 fps image sequence with still resolution using the full sensor area (to what would be a "real" still).
Even if those where motion jpeg it would be really powerfull.
I'm a strong supporter of image sequence workflows. The storage is huge but hey, for most of us, coming from photography, we're not going to do 1,5 hours movie but short clips campaigns.
15 sec, 2 minutes, whatever. So even if we always need a lot of footage just for a min delivery, storage is cheaper and cheaper.
It's the end of 444 or 422. In fact it's very similar to film. Each frame is a high-def still. Once you convert any video file into an image sequence of your choice, there is no more degradation.
(well depending on the file type) Nuke artists always work in IS.
You work in floating point in AE or Nuke kind of units, in linear color space in the background, and it is really stable. In fact, IS consumes a lot of space but not so much CPU. I could verify that a 4K IS is actually faster than a native AVCHD edition because the computer doesn't have to do heavy calculations. It's brutal, big Ks, but a 3- 4 years old computer can handle that perfectly.
You can ingest the footage in Photoshop, apply a complex script and it will work like a breeze, never crash, just gently apply to each frame. It takes a bit of time but again, consumes very little and it's perfectly possible to work on another project while you have PS doing its task.
Also, everything reads it and nobody will be on bondage with new fancy codecs or formats released.
It reminds me of the russian planes industry. Big, heavy, hugly and solid, but it bloody works under every conditions and with whatever.
Then, if sharpness is your concern (I mean the ilusion of), a downsampled big Ks file to full hd looks always more defined, more precise. You can see that perfectly doing timelapse stuff.
But anyway, as we're not there yet this is pointless. Back to your post,
I don't think that the whole point to shoot Red is to shoot raw and extract stills later. I do think that the all point of Red is mainly to shoot Raw, so extremely maleable, and the resolution allows cropping, and the Epic frame-rate as you pointed.
Then, the compromises you have to think about when it comes to what still output will be delivered according to the frame rate etc...is to take into consideration and it's not perfect. But on the right path.
If you have never worked with Red files before, and you'll do it when receive the Scarlet, beleive me, you're going to love it. Independently of the still limitations.
And I doubt you'll want to be back on a non-raw workflow because it's addictive.
Raw video is IMO the standard to reach.
Now...this hacked gh2...(will create a thread soon)
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fred, although in general you are right that the times of endless budgets are over, there still exists clients who are willed to pay a lot for getting the best they can get.
and the situation in spain isnt as it is in greece, but also not as in rest of europe or in us.i live with my famliy in the south of spain ( my wife is spanish ) meanwhile my office is in germany and i can tell you the situation in spain's situation is reminding me more and more like in the third world ( as was the behavor in the last 15 years to throw out money for incredible crazy things as/ and to build 2 million houses too much which are all empty now, with a very corrupt and also very ineffective government, fiscal authorities. it
was a bonanza as i havent seen it nowhere and which reminds to brazil in the 70s. the price therefor will have to be paid and thats what you describe. we in andalucia have over 60% unemployd young people between 17 and 25 years old, search a develloped country with similar numbers, even greece is far better.
thats not europe, and hopefully as well not the future of europe. situation in germany or in france and in many other countries is quite different, so is the economy. lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.
Rainer,
the situation is much, much worse in Spain than you think.
The banking system is bankrupt. Half of that system were Cajas, formerly small banks which were concentrated and in the hands of politicians. It is impossible for Spain to pay for that huge hole. Impossible.
The public sector is a nightmare. The "federal" state, the central government, accounts for only 1/3 of the total public expenditures, whereas 2/3 are in hands of local governments and regional governments. In Germany there are 4000 local governments, in Spain more than 8000. In Germany you have Länder, in Spain 17 Comunidades Autónomas, but now, look at this: Cataluña, a small region in the mediterranean north, is making heavy cuts in Health expenditures... but they have 6 public regional television channels!!! All the Comunidades Autónomas have a parliament and a government, and one or two public TV channels with huge red numbers!!!! Many large cities also have local public television channels. In Seville, for instance, "Giralda TV" needed 10 million euros for avoiding bankruptcy, and the new mayor, from the conservative party, paid. The funny thing is that the local government in Seville is bankrupt too.
País Vasco and Navarra are two of the richest regions in Spain, but they don't make any tax contribution to the nation. They have a special tax system (called "concierto económico"): they collect all the taxes and then, in a political negotiation process, they transfer an amount to the central government accounting for the unpaid "services" the central government gives to those regions (defense, etc). In practice, that amount is intentionally underestimated (the regional parties support the party in power, in Madrid, in exchange for more privileges). The nation transfers income to those rich regions!!! Cataluña is looking for the same. Now they are pressing for a "concierto", but, for the moment, they have a new "estatuto" (the law that regulates the Comunidad Autónoma) with unbelievable privileges. For instance, that law establishes how much the central government has to invest in that region (a particular % of the total investments).
Central government, Comunidades Autónomas, local governments... and "diputaciones"... there are more than 40 diputaciones in Spain. These institutions cover the "provinces", an arbitrary administrative division from the XIX century that is preserved. On top of this there are another arbitrary administrative division from the XX century (the Comunidades Autónomas). All the associated institutions are preserved, of course. Thousands of politicians, civil servants, etc.
The Trade Unions? If I tell you about the trade unions in Spain you will not believe me. The "official" trade unions (UGT, a branch of the PSOE, the socialist party; and CCOO, a "communist" trade union) are two almost official "institutions" and are heavily funded with public money without control. Just a point: in Spain we have "liberados". A "liberado" is a worker in a private company or public administration who is relieved from his work tasks and goes to work for the trade union. If your (private) company has, for instance, 1000 workers, you have to have, say, 10 "liberados". They go to work for your workers (sic) in the trade unions, but YOU pay the salaries. The law establishes the number, but politicians have increased that number in the public administrations. There are thousands and thousands of "liberados" in the public administrations. None knows the exact number. These liberados are specially dangerous when the trade unions call for a strike. Just like in Argentina (not Brazil)...
Trade Unions fix salaries at an aggregate level (the whole country, and then by sectors) by negotiating with the CEOE, and artificial organization that represents the employers. There are more than 30 different types of labor contracts! The unemployment rate is 20% (5 million people, most of them young people and people expelled from the construction sector, now collapsed), but those numbers are manipulated. I think the real number is even higher. Temporal contracts, with no social protection or with low social protection accounts for more than 30% of the total workers... The lay off compensation for "permanent" workers is so high that many small companies go bankrupt by trying to reduce somewhat the total number of workers when the economy goes mad... Etc.
The central government reduced public servants' salaries by 5% last year, but the total number of workers of the public administration is still growing!!! The central government is lying about the public deficit, just like Greece did. For instance, and this is only an example, the public administration takes 9, 12 or more months to pay any bill to companies who sell goods or services to them. This is some kind of "hidden" debt. It is just like the government forcing you to buy bonds at 0% for a year.
Do you know how many universities we have in Spain? 78. Yes, you have read well: seventy eight, 78 (public and private). Many of them bankrupt, of course. All of them full of public servants. Thousands. I work in a public university in Madrid and the corruption and inefficiencies are just unbelievable. And it was the same craziness for the last 25 years. No changes, no real reforms. Only 4 or 5 public universities have a good level, the remaining ones are from mediocre to pure garbage.
I have tried to show you, by means of a few examples, the kind of craziness, of absolute chaos and decomposition, that Spain is. Spain is much, much worse than Greece or Italy, because of the political problem. Berlusconi or Papandreu are great political leaders if compared with Mr. Zapatero. The situation is now so bad that I cannot see how Spain can be saved from the disaster, even if the government changes.
I understand Angela Merkel. The problem in Europe is what to do with these zombie countries who never will change. The Euro was a huge mistake. Now the program of reforms have to be imposed by the Union, and narrowly supervised under the menace of expulsion from the Euro.
http://www.economist.com/node/21536651
.
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This is a great, detailled and truth explaination of the spanish situation.
But Berlusconi being a great political leader ?...I'm sorry, I can't follow you on that, all I see is a mafia padrino in a politician uniform. He has no voice nor prestige in Europe.
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This is a great, detailled and truth explaination of the spanish situation.
But Berlusconi being a great political leader ?...I'm sorry, I can't follow you on that, all I see is a mafia padrino in a politician uniform. He has no voice nor prestige in Europe.
... if compared with Zapatero.
Who is not a great political leader compared to him?
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nemo i agree to 100%. since years i waited in spain for the end and the bill for the crazy politics and investments there and we are getting closer to it. i just hope that europe will not split in parts again. it would be a nightmare.
but greece italy and spain are not directly comparable, there is no better or worse one because each has its own deep and heavy deficits, which result in all three cases an economic nightmare.
in spain, portugal and greece also the short democratic tradition is a risc that not any politician wants to see. if i see the guardia civil drug and ETA street controls on the roads ( we live close to the portuguese border and drive in such control 1 or 2 times min. each week ) i get fear from this enpurmous forced and armed "police" troops. i do not remember that i was anywhere in the world ever in more armed police controls, except in war regions.
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nemo i agree to 100%. since years i waited in spain for the end and the bill for the crazy politics and investments there and we are getting closer to it. i just hope that europe will not split in parts again. it would be a nightmare.
but greece italy and spain are not directly comparable, there is no better or worse one because each has its own deep and heavy deficits, which result in all three cases an economic nightmare.
in spain, portugal and greece also the short democratic tradition is a risc that not any politician wants to see. if i see the guardia civil drug and ETA street controls on the roads ( we live close to the portuguese border and drive in such control 1 or 2 times min. each week ) i get fear from this enpurmous forced and armed "police" troops. i do not remember that i was anywhere in the world ever in more armed police controls, except in war regions.
We should have called this thread: Spain strikes back. Or ZP strikes back! ::)
I know that the guardia civil, wich is a military corps, impressed. But man, I'm french and the Gendarmerie, wich is also a military corps, is not bad either...then the CRS (security company of the republic) are la crème de la crème. Have you ever been stopped by a CRS motorcycle patrol on a french motorway? Beleive me, it's not a funny experience. (ok, I was riding the bike at 200...)
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At least there we have a lot of new and funded customers for new Video Equipment:
Police, Army and security forces of different kind.............
This was also a kind of twofaced experience last year on the Canon World Expo in Shanghai, when they showed the "Wonder Cam"
doing a face recognition on the entrance and then with one shot of the wondercam had a nearly 100% recognition of the complete audience
sitting and watching the demo.............frightening !!!
So now you know why there needs to be even more resolution in Imaging/video......... :o
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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In an interview Canon mentioned the sensor section on the new C 300 Camera being more powerful than their video processing in camera. As we know for end users this may not be an issue since they will view on formats even more compressed and lower than 422 anyway. It also saves space meaning more shooting per card, less storage, easier archive etc.
One of those benefits for the fundamental image before compression has been mentioned on another review site:
''Data is clocked off the sensor at 120 frames per second, reducing rolling shutter, more commonly known as jello effect''
So it is 4K at 120 Frames per second turned into 2K at 24 Frames per second with full colour no loss, turned into 422 with low loss of colour but big space saving on data flow and still good for colour key work. Without the need for demosaicing in that signal flow, the lack of image errors at the edge gives enhanced colour key too... Not to shabby for real world editing and end user viewing...
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red is not even on canons horizon in terms of size/sales.....yes, red has lit a fire under everybody's a.. .........snip
Paul,
Unless you want to drop 60k on a Epic (with a bag of little parts) look at the Scarlet as almost a gift, because in the world on non plastic, 200 button motion cameras, this thing is the price of the tax on a Alexa and a professional piece of kit.
If you shoot advertising, catalog, editorial, stills of any kind this gives you a pretty small and easy form factor to shoot motion, let's you use the lenses you probably already own and even if you never shoot the 12 fps 5k, you still can get 4k motion you can grade, mess with, move around and pull decent stills from.
14 thousand? . . . even Canon can't get there in 4:4:4 for that.
Or you can spend less, drop 3 to 4 thousand on a Sony af100 but it's gonna look like video not cinema film and I can't tell you why but I just know it does, because we've been grading 90% red files next to 10% AF100 files and I can tell an af100 file from across the room because the colors cross and cast so heavily. We cannot excatly match red and sony footage ever, without keying and masking and then it's not exact.
For production in the next few weeks I'd give anything if we had the Scarlet on set for jib and slider shots.
Anyway, the good news is there is another option on the table, the bad news is it's not exactly what your looking for at the price point you want to see.
Actually, if you can deal with the few added pounds, look for a RED One MX. It's 16x9 and goes 4096 across, and with small nikon mount Ziess lenses, only weighs a few pounds more than the Epic and when you crop an Epic down to 16x9 your not much more than 4k anyway (for stills or motion).
Just a thought.
BC
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I went to Paramount to see the demo.
A couple observations:
This camera has more than enough detail for most any cinema screen. Except for a very few applications in cinema, it is not a concern.
It seems to shoot very good images in very low light which is a big advantage sometimes.
Shooting RAW is not always desired, even on a multi million dollar project. There is a very big advantage to being able to view a live image that's a good approximation of the final project, and the Red cameras don't do this yet. Sorry to say, the Canon camera will require a LUT box on output to do this when shooting in LOG mode, but this is not a real option on the Red (note: my experience is with the Red one MX).
From my experience, Red camera images can look wonderful, but I rarely feel like they look like the live scene did. I'm not sure why this is, but it is my observation.
So don't count out this camera quite yet. I can see how some may prefer this camera and workflow to the Red though I don't think any of these cameras are designed for the masses. They really are professional cinema cameras and are certainly capable of giving 35mm film competition at any theater.
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I went to Paramount to see the demo.
A couple observations:
This camera has more than enough detail for most any cinema screen. Except for a very few applications in cinema, it is not a concern.
It seems to shoot very good images in very low light which is a big advantage sometimes.
Shooting RAW is not always desired, even on a multi million dollar project. There is a very big advantage to being able to view a live image that's a good approximation of the final project, and the Red cameras don't do this yet. Sorry to say, the Canon camera will require a LUT box on output to do this when shooting in LOG mode, but this is not a real option on the Red (note: my experience is with the Red one MX).
From my experience, Red camera images can look wonderful, but I rarely feel like they look like the live scene did. I'm not sure why this is, but it is my observation.
So don't count out this camera quite yet. I can see how some may prefer this camera and workflow to the Red though I don't think any of these cameras are designed for the masses. They really are professional cinema cameras and are certainly capable of giving 35mm film competition at any theater.
Do we have details about the Canon's LOG mode? Is it the same as the Sony F3?
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Do we have details about the Canon's LOG mode? Is it the same as the Sony F3?
''Canon Log Gamma
The C300 and C300 PL allow users to adjust image quality to match that of professional camcorders and EOS DSLR cameras, and offer Canon Log Gamma, enabling neutral image quality with subdued contrast and sharpness for a wider dynamic range and maximum freedom in post-production editing and processing.
Canon Log Gamma has been designed with post-processing in mind and when it is selected users can preview on the monitor how Custom Pictures will look once applied. Canon Log Gamma also allows for seamless conversion to the industry-standard 10-bit Cineon format for colour grading, whilst Apple and AVID plug-ins are provided for efficient importing of recorded files into non-linear editing software. ''
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Sorry to go a little of topic, though this thread has covered a lot of territory.
I rarely get into these discussions on an open forum, for a lot of reasons, but with all due respect for everyone that posts here, I think as artists, content providers, photographers, directors, whatever the term is today and all artistic crew short ourselves as where we are in the food chain of commerce.
Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing of importance gets sold without marketing or entertainment content. Could be web based, a print ad, a film, a door hanger from Dominos Pizza, but nothing gets sold without some visual that makes a viewer stop and look, if only for a few seconds.
These forums light up when a new camera is announced and the people that use the cameras for a living rarely get juiced unless the camera gives them something they could not do before, either for budget, style or technique.
I hope the new Canon rocks (wish it had a few more things) and I do hope it finds a place, though in reality it doesn't matter to me because I don't own Canon stock.
I also think RED is on to something and rocks more for the working pro moving to motion and Arri is a huge force in motion pictures so they're not going away.
Regardless, all we hear in the media is mostly about tech, very little about content and let's be honest without someone making an image, none of these machines are worth a plug nickel.
It's funny, when we start production, I can negotiate everything down, from studio space, set construction, locations, (except government run), all crew if I so desire, but when it comes to buying equipment, the numbers just don't move very much.
Sure you can save a few bucks on drives, computers, software, cameras, lenses, but if your buying new you'll never shave the amount off of any hardware purchase that you can off of human capital.
Kind of strange, because in reality, I can shoot with a great talent and artistic crew with Fred's GH2 and get a better response, than I can shooting with marginal people and cut rate talent even if I had an unlimited budget on equipment.
Sometimes I think the tail wags the dog in this business and most of the time I think it's all our fault.
Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but for anyone out there scratching through their bank account to buy a a $20,000 plastic camera that is going to go obsolete in 18 months, just remember it's not always what we do behind the lens, but in front of it that's important and really worth the price of admission.
Also not to go off topic, but a few years ago I was driving through Brazil with an executive of a large corporation. After about an hour I said "wow you guys sure throw away a lot of resource". He said yea, Brazil is full of natural resources and we're just beginning to tap the potential.
I said, "no, I don't mean, rivers, or oil, I'm talking about those millions of people I see lining the road looking for work. If you can find a way to get those people working and earning, this place would have emerald streets."
IMO
BC
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Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but for anyone out there scratching through their bank account to buy a a $20,000 plastic camera that is going to go obsolete in 18 months, just remember it's not always what we do behind the lens, but in front of it that's important and really worth the price of admission.
The large black cylinder behind the lens mount is Metal in appearance. Could well be metal...
Canon often do hybrids of material ''engineering grade plastics, stainless steel, ali, cast Mag etc''
Pro tip, on a cold day do not lick your Scarlet. Pics I have seen suggest it has a pressed steel plate case
(http://www.preventfreezing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/frozen-tongue1.jpg)
;D
Edit.... well well well, this link confirms lots of metal in the C 300 as suspected:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml
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Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but for anyone out there scratching through their bank account to buy a a $20,000 plastic camera that is going to go obsolete in 18 months, just remember it's not always what we do behind the lens, but in front of it that's important and really worth the price of admission.
If it works well in January 2012. It will still work well in January 2112...
Obsolescence is preached by those that want you to believe a half baked future solution = non obsolescence...
I say let your understanding guide you... choose wisely...
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Somewhere at the beginning of this thread I remember asking about this Canon: what does it have the competition doesn't already have? I'm still waiting for an answer.
There is a marketing term for that, don't remember, when a product is alone on the market to have this or that spec so it's in a unique sell position. Anyway.
Red actually does. No one on earth today offers Raw at that resolution, with a free good software, prices confined in the reasonable and top built quality, some kind of universality with lenses, a stable format between generations.
This Canon is maybe a great tool but it has nothing groundbreaking that does not already exist.
And of course the content.
How many times we have seen here (and everywhere else) 65 MP cameras shooting so so models in a mall coral? And it looks, well, so so, regardless of the super hyper definition, DR, or any golden component. (tomorrow will have one with diamonds I'm sure, you'll see! Marketing people are unlimited beings)... But if you shoot a really top model with any of the entry-level cameras that exist on the market of the all galaxy, you'll probably have something.
Cast is much more important than gear.
I can shoot with one of the cooooooter's red one 4K a campaign, Zeiss cine lenses and all the bazar, and if the talent is crap, or the stylist, or the MUA or me, or whatever that concerns the content fail, 4K or 4000K, 444 or 422, bloody Prores or DNxHD, graded in Da-Vinci or FX in Nuke, it will be another more crappery to upload in Vimeo.
Ps: I've seen today that Grass Valley has win some big contracts recently. I was a bit worry because they where in trouble and been bought. But it seems that the new directives are doing well, so we still might see them in this industry. I really love their NLE approach, super fast, intuitive, powerfull, with just the needed tools well implemented. It's a good news.
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after really thinking about the scarlet specs, i came across the for sale section of reduser....a LOT of MXs for sale...you are right, they make more sense....
i actually cancelled my scarlet order, this whole thing reminded me of when i dropped too much on my 3rd DMF back...
i am not in the business of shooting features....or even TV commercials...everything i have shot so far has ended up on the web or some display, i doubt even HD....nobody has had any issues with my 5d video, i have not noticed any moire or rolling shutter in my footage....
the red way of shooting makes sense to me, really does and the scarlet could slip into my bag right along with the canons....but when you really price it out the scarlet is 20000 (screen, grip, batteries (at least 6 from what i have heard) and ssd cards (which are insanely overpriced)...yes you can shoot a couple of minutes for less but that is what you need to start working....
for epic owners the scarlet is a no brainer...
for someone wanting to shoot their first feature....it makes a lot of sense...
for what i want to do with it, it just doesn't....
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after really thinking about the scarlet specs, i came across the for sale section of reduser....a LOT of MXs for sale...you are right, they make more sense....
i actually cancelled my scarlet order, this whole thing reminded me of when i dropped too much on my 3rd DMF back...
i am not in the business of shooting features....or even TV commercials...everything i have shot so far has ended up on the web or some display, i doubt even HD....nobody has had any issues with my 5d video, i have not noticed any moire or rolling shutter in my footage....
the red way of shooting makes sense to me, really does and the scarlet could slip into my bag right along with the canons....but when you really price it out the scarlet is 20000 (screen, grip, batteries (at least 6 from what i have heard) and ssd cards (which are insanely overpriced)...yes you can shoot a couple of minutes for less but that is what you need to start working....
for epic owners the scarlet is a no brainer...
for someone wanting to shoot their first feature....it makes a lot of sense...
for what i want to do with it, it just doesn't....
Why don't you GH2 ? It's a better video tool than the 5D2, cheap, hackable...almost a paradise. (I stop there because I sound like a MF vendor)
and it also shoots 4K image sequence at 60 fps...but just during one sec!! (don't know if they fixed that with the hack)
Also here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/panasonic_gh2_11_mode_revealed.shtml
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Pro tip, on a cold day do not lick your Scarlet.
I'm not much in to licking cameras, though I heard when I was in grade school some kid tried to kick his dad's car on a cold day.
I don't know why but hey Bernard, maybe it's something you have experience with.
Anyway, don't misunderstand me, I don't get paid by RED and I'm not looking to. I just shoot for a living and the RED's work good for me and I love the look of the file.
If something comes out that's better for me I'll buy it, but I gotta tell ya, I hate cameras with 20 to 200 little buttons on the side.
Though maybe if I licked them I'd feel different.
IMO
BC
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I'm not much in to licking cameras, though I heard when I was in grade school some kid tried to kick his dad's car on a cold day.
I don't know why but hey Bernard, maybe it's something you have experience with.
Anyway, don't misunderstand me, I don't get paid by RED and I'm not looking to. I just shoot for a living and the RED's work good for me and I love the look of the file.
If something comes out that's better for me I'll buy it, but I gotta tell ya, I hate cameras with 20 to 200 little buttons on the side.
Though maybe if I licked them I'd feel different.
IMO
BC
;D
All power to you if you are happy with that product. If you enjoy a brand or a spec or an organization and the results workout for your art and you like using that product, that is great. Makes doing it worth while.
I have only replied originally to help anyone confused understand why the Canon had something... If that something means nothing everyone will ignore and see what works for them.
The guy that wrote this still ordered a Scarlet:
''Now it is cheaper than the C300. Is it better? Dunno. Not shot with either. It’s essentially an EPIC light. I love my Epic but have had hideous reliability issues with it. Will RED carry on with having BETA firmware in the Scarlet or will they make it more stable. At the lower price point they are going to ship more so it will need to be. I expect the C300 will be super reliable straight out of the starting block…''
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http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/canon-eos-c300-announced/
4K - 16.000 US$ - Jan 2012 availability.
Cheers,
Bernard
Even if it will be working straight out of the box with zero issues, the Canon is 5 to 7000$ worth of camera to me. I would not spend a penny more for it.
The Scarlet on the other hand seems a much better value for money.
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A few interesting links:
http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/interview-with-canon-managing-director-mr-maeda/
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2011/11/07/these-are-interesting-times-for-filmmakers-the-tools-keep-getting-better/
http://prolost.com/shrinkage
.
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http://prolost.com/shrinkage
.
Red's stuff is not on my radar, not really my thang, but yeah I was shocked when I read it and that is a nice way of showing it. Although the full aperture (they called it ''Super 35 Film'') is potentially misleading given the film industry mix and match, for many various reasons, of different perfs and aspects used, not to mention the ana'lenses that really see wider ratio's.
Sadly I think some will not consider it when they brag about the Scarlet as if they were going to buy it. Hopefully those buying will ensure it still is a workable solution for their needs, In some cases it may actually help for those that may not need the full cinematic feel and want more DOF or more DOF on higher frame rates for faster action shoots...
A definite buyer beware...
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http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/interview-with-canon-managing-director-mr-maeda/
Could be a sign Canon are considering working with Arri for the high end. Makes sense. Arri will build the big heavy stuff and canon can do the sensor and electronics.
A great pairing...
Seems the driver behind the DSLR ''?'' C is just the ''we want more lines'' types... They will give them what they want, and it will be a thorn for the competition as the price will probably be similar to the 1D X. It will be interesting if they give it the Cinematic contrast they mentioned bestowed on the C 300. If so it will be another tool for many shooting the more film like look...
This is a must read for anyone interested in the C 300:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/c300_for_cinematographers.shtml
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snip>>>>>>>>> Hopefully those buying will ensure it still is a workable solution for their needs, In some cases it may actually help for those that may not need the full cinematic feel and want more DOF or more DOF on higher frame rates for faster action shoots... snip.
This Canon 300 may be good, I don't know and I don't know anyone that has shot a real paying production with one yet, I'm sure they will, but I doubt if there are any one on one comparison images of RED, Canon 300 even a Panasonic.
That's probably up to Zaguto to do in a year or so.
The thing is I know that my RED's work and maybe I'm lucky but both of mine work reliably.
I also know that this week shooting a parallel campaign of motion and stills on locations using HMI's, LED's and a continuous light mix, the RED's had more latitude than the Nikon D3 and Canon 1ds3's still cameras I was using.
Much more the the Nikon (D3 NOT D3x) and about 25% more than the 1ds3.
We had one shot today throwing a 1.2k HMI through a window to simulate cross window light and set the shot on the RED.
On the RED the ratios were perfect, the light through the window threw white but still holding detail.
On the Nikon (which is a still camera) the window and wall just went to total blow out and the Canon ( also a still camera) required a 1/2 stop knockdown of the HMI to hold the same detail.
Actually the Nikon was so blown that you couldn't tell definition of a window to the wall, which amazed me because i kinda like that camera.
Anyway.
I was pretty shocked about that and it showed real world what the difference was.
today we also had monitors everywhere, for the two RED's and the still cameras and the clients obviously looked at both, but on the RED footage kept asking that'll make a still . . . right? . . . so maybe in movie-land they don't need stills but in advertising land, they want and need all they can get when the pace is fast and the exact look they want is on the monitor, regardless of the camera.
I thought I wish I had the Scarlet we ordered, or an Epic because then I could do 5k stills and then switch and shoot motion, or with the Epic just shoot.
Anyway.
The steadicam guy we hired to run the second camera on this project does a lot of feature work and has shot with everything. He likes the Alexa, like the RED, doesn't know what happens to either of them in post and probably doesn't concern himself with it, but he does like to use an Angenieux optimo Zoom and that's a PL mount. With the RED we just changed one of our Nikon mounts to a PL, but with this new Canon do the mounts change or is it a separate body?
Everybody I talk to has their own opinion of cameras and usually the camera they like best is the one they shot the best project with, or with new cameras, what they hope the camera will deliver.
In time we'll all find out how all these camera compare and i guess Canon isn't going after RED but positioning themselves to be a smaller and lower cost version of the Arri.
Regardless I wish em' luck because the more cameras the better, but in the world of cinema and tee vee, most people rent anyway.
I think where RED upsets the status quo is if your working a long range production, are your very busy, it's cheaper to own a RED, any RED than rent long term.
IMO
BC
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With the RED we just changed one of our Nikon mounts to a PL, but with this new Canon do the mounts change or is it a separate body?
The C 300 Bodies EF and PL are the same. Canon has decided not to offer a changeable system due to the need to double tolerance every flange in such as system (a real headache if done correctly). They do however suspect a cottage industry to set up with people offering it as a Custom service (invalidating the guarantee no doubt)...
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I also know that this week shooting a parallel campaign of motion and stills on locations using HMI's, LED's and a continuous light mix, the RED's had more latitude than the Nikon D3 and Canon 1ds3's still cameras I was using.
Much more the the Nikon (D3 NOT D3x) and about 25% more than the 1ds3.
We had one shot today throwing a 1.2k HMI through a window to simulate cross window light and set the shot on the RED.
On the RED the ratios were perfect, the light through the window threw white but still holding detail.
On the Nikon (which is a still camera) the window and wall just went to total blow out and the Canon ( also a still camera) required a 1/2 stop knockdown of the HMI to hold the same detail.
Well... that tells us that the actual ISO of the Nikon is higher, nothing else.
Cheers,
Bernard
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This Canon 300 may be good, I don't know and I don't know anyone that has shot a real paying production with one yet, I'm sure they will, but I doubt if there are any one on one comparison images of RED, Canon 300 even a Panasonic.
That's probably up to Zaguto to do in a year or so.
The thing is I know that my RED's work and maybe I'm lucky but both of mine work reliably.
I also know that this week shooting a parallel campaign of motion and stills on locations using HMI's, LED's and a continuous light mix, the RED's had more latitude than the Nikon D3 and Canon 1ds3's still cameras I was using.
Much more the the Nikon (D3 NOT D3x) and about 25% more than the 1ds3.
We had one shot today throwing a 1.2k HMI through a window to simulate cross window light and set the shot on the RED.
On the RED the ratios were perfect, the light through the window threw white but still holding detail.
On the Nikon (which is a still camera) the window and wall just went to total blow out and the Canon ( also a still camera) required a 1/2 stop knockdown of the HMI to hold the same detail.
Actually the Nikon was so blown that you couldn't tell definition of a window to the wall, which amazed me because i kinda like that camera.
Anyway.
I was pretty shocked about that and it showed real world what the difference was.
today we also had monitors everywhere, for the two RED's and the still cameras and the clients obviously looked at both, but on the RED footage kept asking that'll make a still . . . right? . . . so maybe in movie-land they don't need stills but in advertising land, they want and need all they can get when the pace is fast and the exact look they want is on the monitor, regardless of the camera.
I thought I wish I had the Scarlet we ordered, or an Epic because then I could do 5k stills and then switch and shoot motion, or with the Epic just shoot.
Anyway.
The steadicam guy we hired to run the second camera on this project does a lot of feature work and has shot with everything. He likes the Alexa, like the RED, doesn't know what happens to either of them in post and probably doesn't concern himself with it, but he does like to use an Angenieux optimo Zoom and that's a PL mount. With the RED we just changed one of our Nikon mounts to a PL, but with this new Canon do the mounts change or is it a separate body?
Everybody I talk to has their own opinion of cameras and usually the camera they like best is the one they shot the best project with, or with new cameras, what they hope the camera will deliver.
In time we'll all find out how all these camera compare and i guess Canon isn't going after RED but positioning themselves to be a smaller and lower cost version of the Arri.
Regardless I wish em' luck because the more cameras the better, but in the world of cinema and tee vee, most people rent anyway.
I think where RED upsets the status quo is if your working a long range production, are your very busy, it's cheaper to own a RED, any RED than rent long term.
IMO
BC
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JnNYElHXTt0/TVqlKr_U2lI/AAAAAAAAAa0/Aui7ZodFp3E/s1600/einstein-tongue1.jpg)
Another victim of the frozen lamppost licking syndrome ;D
TIME is the answer...
You can choose any workflow if you have the TIME to use it...
The C 300 is not just about purity of the original image before being compressed into a small space, it is also about a fast work flow... TIME may cost some users money...
The C 300 will not suit everyone, that is why it is up to people to choose for themselves what works for them.
DSLR's have a ''look''. The C 300 looks very different (but has a DSLR look menu option too). They made it to the tastes of Hollywood... A film like look...
Check this link again:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/c300_for_cinematographers.shtml
See the ''Moiré effects'' example. Not just to see Canon showing how much better the C 300 is over a DSLR since the up coming 1D X may also solve some of this (@ 4 2 0 colour space so still not in the same league as the C 300), but note the colour cast on the wall on the DSLR picture example. The male models white vest stays white in both pictures. The light hitting the back wall must be different, missing part of the spectrum, the C 300 sensor with 4 to 1 pixel full colour appears not to be fooled. The DSLR appears to have put a colour cast on the wall. If my guess is correct then you see why the C 300 starts to remove the need for a full RAW work flow for some users, it just does not have the same issues to be fixed... That will save TIME...
We need to see more of this new C 300, but it is looking good so far for me...
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"The C 300 is not just about purity of the original image before being compressed into a small space, it is also about a fast work flow... TIME may cost some users money..."
Can u explain further? Are you saying that the File produced from the upcoming canon will be so clean right out of the can that you will not need a raw file and therefore need less storage space on set and less post production time on the computer?
Also; we saw above the crop factors associated with the new scarlet. How about the canon? Only one crop factor that doesnt change no matter what frame speed you are shooting?
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snip........."The C 300 is not just about purity of the original image before being compressed into a small space, it is also about a fast work flow... TIME may cost some users money..."......snip
Uh no . . . not really.
This becomes a somewhat silly comparison of a camera (the canon) that isn't on the shelf comparing it to a RED scarlet whose form factor in the EPIC is already being sold.
Time will tell.
Workflow is another matter. If you need a camcorder's already baked file that you do not do any post production correction, then there are a lot of camcorders that'll do this, though from our experience everything needs some matching and correction.
The thing is in their sales presentation, Canon can't seem to make up their mind as to whether this is a already baked out news camera that spits out a file ready for edit, or a camera that shoots a flat cine file that is later corrected and graded to match or for look and and effect.
If it's the latter, then there is absolutely no time or money savings in that type of file format . . . in fact for us it is always more workflow intensive than shooting a RED file. We shoot the Sony AF 100 and 5d2 next to the RED file for a small percentage of our work and it takes twice the time to remove the wrapper and go to some third party software to process out adjusted prorezz for editing and smaller mp4's/h264 for gallery view, because RED Cine-x is an easy software to learn and with the RED rocket processes multiple file formats very fast.
On set we set up our RED's to look pleasing or as close to the final look we can achieve (kind of like setting up C-1 or lightroom), though just like a still raw file, we don't worry about it that much because we know we're going to go back and match them in cine-x anyway, so the worry factor in initial set up is not that big of a deal and time setting a color look in post is a lot less expensive than having a full production sitting around while the cameras are being set up to hit an exact look.
Since we've moved to more and more motion production we've integrated ourselves more into the cine-world and bumping past DP's, directors and all sorts of technicians and suppliers. Bottom line is there is no bottom line and like still cameras everyone uses what either they want, need or the budget allows.
The thing about RED is, in the cine world they have a big head start and everyone is familiar with them, dp's, sound techs, focus pullers, steadicam operators, everyone, so there is really no surprises when you say your shooting a RED.
I don't doubt the the Canon won't be used, or become part of the landscape, but in the cine world, even small web spots, the requirements for complete integration from pre through post production makes or breaks a system.
Without doubt you have to give RED credit for thinking about the complete system from day 1.
Last night we were wrapping on a sound stage and I was talking to a DP on the stage next door. They were shooting with EPICS and most traditional DP's like the Arri's because they are familiar with the camera and brand, but the DP's that get involved with post production love the raw file of the RED just for the reasons I mentioned.
One thing this DP said that was interesting is twice he's seen still images from his productions in outdoor and print. Whether that is good or bad for our industry is another matter, but the fact that you can make a useable still from the RED plays very well to a client.
One other thing I've found interesting is most of the dp's and operators I've met that don't own cameras, but rent, all think about buying the scarlet, even if it's a backup or a B cam, just due to price and functionality. Whether they do or not remains to be seen, but nobody I've met is talking about the Canon camera, a few have mentioned the lenses, though I'm not taking a pole, I'm just working.
The most telling comment I've heard is everyone is stoked by our DIT station and that we do it in-house and on set.\
So workflow for the RED isn't that complicated.
IMO
BC
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Could be a sign Canon are considering working with Arri for the high end. Makes sense. Arri will build the big heavy stuff and canon can do the sensor and electronics.
A great pairing...
I do not think ARRI needs Canon expertise for motion sensors.
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"The C 300 is not just about purity of the original image before being compressed into a small space, it is also about a fast work flow... TIME may cost some users money..."
Can u explain further? Are you saying that the File produced from the upcoming canon will be so clean right out of the can that you will not need a raw file and therefore need less storage space on set and less post production time on the computer?
There are some advantages to not needing to demosaic and there are some gains from 4 into 1. E.g. The line detail is generated by 4 separate pixel readings covering the area that needs that line detail. The colour detail in the area is pure. The green makes up half the reading in the area and nothing stops Canon adding info gleaned from the other two colours to add yet more colour intelligence for the green reading (not saying they do it but if they wanted to and had the processing power they could). The Blue is pure and will again have the potential to use as mentioned for the green and ditto the Red.
The difficulty for conventional systems is the are expecting allot from each pixel. In effect the pixels are themselves colour blind and have a green or blue or red filter to give a reading. In still RAW, this reading does not get compressed, so using algorithms to guess the other values of non green light hitting a green light sensitive pixel by measure of surrounding pixels is a system that has worked well but is far from perfect. It can hit problems and the algorithms are being constantly developed to play this trick of light. With a RED camera they do full colour 444 RAW but the signal is compressed (as little as they can) so it makes the job of demosiacing that bit harder and the artifacts we associate with that RAW process will be harder to avoid if that compression looses some signal fidelity, which we know it does as it is a lossy compression.
Clearly the RED system uses more bandwidth and as such they try to keep as much of the signal as possible to maximize the usefulness of the RAW output.
Canon have taken a different approach and so face different problems. Their advantage is not having to do full 4K or 444. 422 that they use is recognized as very usable for ''key'' work. The 4 into 1 pixel arrangement is perfect for 2K and that is a fundamental advantage removing the need for demosiacing and the associated issues.
Regarding the flexibility of the Canon output the Canon Log file option (a simple setting to choose and lock to) It seems they are able to generate enough information in those files for post editing. You can also set the camera so that the viewfinder and display show an example of a final graded live image, which assists focus as it will be higher in contrast to the Canon log file.
The only true moan I have seen about the Canon is that the viewfinder and screen resolution could be higher to assist better focus. That said you can always add a monitor to the out put and add another higher rez screen. HD SDI and HDMI outs will be log when in log mode (for off cam recording) so that would work but the contrast would be lower. In all other modes the outs will most likely be more contrasty and useful for focus assistance if needed. Failing that there is the normal focus aids such as peaking and display zoom
Regarding storage, the Canon shoots various bit rates. If you know you do not need the highest quality you can set a lower rate to save card space. Equally on the highest setting, it is broadcast standard and as such anything you have seen on a 1080P TV sent in HD, it will be better than since at best those TV broadcasts are probably only resolving 700 lines and they are probably not full 422. The digital TV networks realize they just don't need that level of detail for home viewing and so make better use of radio channels in the ether.
For cinema viewing one could argue for the person sitting in the front row having to watch a cinema screen like a tennis match moving their head side to side to see the giant screen that they are too close to, they would really need more than 4K... LOL
The irony of all of this is that it is the home cinema user that gets closest to the directors viewfinder vision of a motion picture, since they can sit properly and see the screen in their sweet spot of vision with little side to side eye movement required.
Here is a test for you, look to the right of your computer monitor just enough to look off the screen and without moving your eyes back read from the screen. You can see the screen but you can not read the text. Your eyes have a central sweet spot... Hence the 4K argument is a weak one in reality as it becomes a case of diminishing returns and a very sore neck at a cinema... LOL
Edit, found this link:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml
It confirmed my question on HDMI, it is log in log mode (text above editted to suit)
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Also; we saw above the crop factors associated with the new scarlet. How about the canon? Only one crop factor that doesnt change no matter what frame speed you are shooting?
Yes I believe from all that I have read Canon does not change the crop. The advantage is freedom to change FPS and Line rez without worrying about different effects and any inability to hold the same feeling of depth of field and lens focal range/angle of view..
As before RED will work for those the may NEED more DOF for 2K @ highest FPS on scarlet, however it will be using less pixels and so still a very different 2K to the way Canon gets their 2K from a 4K sensor.
In theory any RED Cam could generate a 2K file from a 4K RAW in post and boost some lost info. I have not studied the full range of their software for post so sorry I do not know if it is available or how they dither down to 2K when needed, assume other 3rd party software may help.
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The thing is in their sales presentation, Canon can't seem to make up their mind as to whether this is a already baked out news camera that spits out a file ready for edit, or a camera that shoots a flat cine file that is later corrected and graded to match or for look and and effect.
This is a must read for anyone interested in the C 300:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/c300_for_cinematographers.shtml
Repeating the link as you need to read this to realize you have misunderstood what Canon have made very clear...
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I do not think ARRI needs Canon expertise for motion sensors.
I agree, but sometimes companies will work together to gain synergy and speed time to market...
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@ focus
There is also a WiFi option to send control to an iPhone or iPad type device. That may or may not give enough rez. Have yet to find out, but is will most likely be used when the Cam is on a crane etc
It covers the main controls remotely, really neat
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Repeating the link as you need to read this to realize you have misunderstood what Canon have made very clear...
OK, I read this earlier but let's be clear, it's a 9 page ad.
As it states "The CDLC contributors are compensated spokespersons and actual users of the Canon products that they promote."
IMO
BC
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OK, I read this earlier but let's be clear, it's a 9 page ad.
As it states "The CDLC contributors are compensated spokespersons and actual users of the Canon products that they promote."
IMO
BC
;D A tad harsh on those folk hmmm
They are trying help you...
Oh well
Edit, this new link I found will give you more direct answers, same thing but more direct:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml
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A tad more info from Canon on the data flow:
''The video components within the EOS C300 camera are processed at 13-bit for Green and 12-bit each for Red and Blue. This allows excellent nonlinear processing of the video that ensures a superb tonal reproduction over the nominally exposed range (that is, from reference white down to capped black level). A contrast ratio in excess of 500:1 is achieved. In addition this bit depth has sufficient overhead to handle overexposed signals. When the camera is set to 850 ISO and the Gamma transfer function is switched to Canon-Log an 800% overexposure is achieved – which translates to the camera being able to capture an Exposure Latitude of 12 f-stops.
The Red, Green, and Blue video signals are subsequently matriced to formulate the Luma video component and the two color difference signals according to the 4:2:2 coding structure preparatory to being compressed according to the MPEG-2 422Profile@High Level international standard. This standard firmly stipulates 8-bit. Accordingly, the fully processed 4:2:2 video components are transformed to an 8-bit depth before being sent to the compression engine. This process loses very little of the careful management of the nonlinear transfer function performed (as described above) at the higher bit depths.
The serial representation of the uncompressed 4:2:2 component set is structured from the parallel 8-bit component set and is fed to the camera's HD SDI interface allowing parallel outboard recording to be implemented if desired.''
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;D A tad harsh on those folk hmmm
They are trying help you...
Oh well
Not harsh, just my take on reality.
Since I've been in some form of advertising and image creation my complete adult life, I'm not being harsh when I say that link is an ad, heck I love advertising.
I'm just calling it what it is . . . a sponsored vehicle that wants the viewer to be positive about this particular product.
Some of it is informative, (enough that we canceled our order for the C300), but it's still a company approved style sheet meant to promote a product.
You know, in all honesty there is nothing wrong with this camera, other than what most of the target market anticipated.
What just about everyone thought would come out of Canon was a 4k, raw file, 4:4:4 camera that produced a real 4k file at a price point at or below $10,000.
Really most people thought it would be at $7,000 to give the 5d2 crowd a reason to upgrade and do what everyone said was coming, which was a RED killer.
Instead we got something totally different and I'm not sure what Canon's intended market really is. Advertising is covered with the RED's and the Arri and maybe a 5d2 or panasonic as a small B/C camera or a crash cam, mostly due to those cameras prices.
Large scale television that wants a ready to edit prorezz file is fine with the Arri, long form theatrical seems covered by the RED One and the Epic and for immediate news gathering ENG cameras there are so many of those it would take a spread sheet to cover them.
There are also issues with the data stream and file size changing as the frame rates are increased, not to mention that if you want a Canon mount camera for casual handholding and a PL mount camera to add any of the hundreds of specialty lenses you'll need two camera bodies, which puts you into Epic territory.
Now Canon may have success with this camera, time will tell, but I don't know how it fits in the market, regardless of medium.
As an image maker, the one advantage I see from this camera is it's claimed ability to go to very high iso and it's lightweight for car mounts.
IMO
BC
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Some of it is informative, (enough that we canceled our order for the C300)
...
Really most people thought it would be at $7,000 to give the 5d2 crowd a reason to upgrade and do what everyone said was coming, which was a RED killer.
...
As an image maker, the one advantage I see from this camera is it's claimed ability to go to very high iso and it's lightweight for car mounts.
I am pleased it helped you decide. If it is not for you, it's not for you...
I know the market is smaller and the extra costs for regs are different, but the price is eye watering for sure... Compared to the costs of film gear it looks cheap, compared to the cost of a prosumer stills cam it is not... It is what it is...
You hit the spot there on usage... Some of those demo's appear to use available light, some were shoot lit for film, so it fits in but it can go that extra mile and allow those that want a low profile light free shoot...
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Money's important, through in regards to what we're doing, the price of the Canon body isn't the deal breaker, since as you know 20 large in the film world just gets things started.
Heck, our DIT station costs double the Canon.
I'm just talking about marketing of this camera. Canon seems to mention it covers all markets from funded movies to commercials, to indie films.
It's the indie market and the photographer that is coming from stills to motion that is working in 5d2's and Panasonics that's not going to jump 17 grand more for a camera that shoots pretty close to what they have already.
Now, I would say the idea of the Canon lenses looks good, especially in PL mount if they hold the price down. the 14.5-60mm T2.6L S at 10 grand would be perfect, though Canon has placed that at $45,000, twice the price of an Angeniex.
Like a friend of mine says, there are some things I understand, some things I don't.
IMO
BC
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I went to the Paramount event, & was impressed by the camera.
It's very lightweight, & ergonomic. I could see handholding it all day.
The picture on the 60' screen looked fantastic. Both the highlight rolloff, & skin tones, were very natural.
If it doesn't chroma clip like the Sony's, & Panasonics, I can see using it on numerous projects, especially documentary.
I'm also interested in the Scarlet, but for different needs.
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Thanks Bern
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The Canon 5D2 with kit lens price has dropped into the abyss...
Normally happens when the retailers get a hint something is coming to replace it...
;)
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More C300 footage
http://vimeo.com/32763902
http://vimeo.com/32067654
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The Canon 5D2 with kit lens price has dropped into the abyss...
Normally happens when the retailers get a hint something is coming to replace it...
;)
No price drops here in UK afar as I can tell, with or without kit lens.
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C-300 Log with commentary.
http://vimeo.com/33630265
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C-300 Log with commentary.
http://vimeo.com/33630265
The high iso looks good and though I don't know the lighting, etc., I still think this camera has somewhat of a 5d2 look. Obviously less moire and a little bit deeper file, but it has that soft Canon look . . .
Maybe when it's out I give it a test and see.
IMO
BC
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Maybe when it's out I give it a test and see.
After the Paramount Event I received an email from Canon concerning the C300. In part it stated...
"Of course, if you would like to borrow and test one of our products for yourself we would be happy to have a sales representative follow up with you directly."
www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/standard_display/contact_me_camera_web_form?WT.mc_id=C130942
They'd be wise to put one in your hands.
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The high iso looks good...
The banding is concerning. Love to see the original file.
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No price drops here in UK afar as I can tell, with or without kit lens.
Was spotted at £1460 (body)
Now £1519 here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001E97GIK/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=northlightima-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=B001E97GIK
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"More Canon C300 chatter with Rodney Charters"
http://ninofilm.net/blog/2012/01/05/more-canon-c300-chatter-with-rodney-charters-by-lan-bui-drew-gardner/
Original posted here...
http://thebuibrothers.com/
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"By the Light of the Moon"
http://vimeo.com/36512776
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"By the Light of the Moon"
http://vimeo.com/36512776
This is obviously a test and not the most beautiful imagery in the world, but . . .
This is why Hollywood has been talking to Canon for features and episodic TV.
When you think of it, to shoot those segments traditionally would have required a huge crane a few lighting and grip trucks, along with a crew of 10, at the bare minimum. With this amount of high iso it probably took two guys, add another guy for sound and your done.
Honestly and this is why I've said forever that you can't have too high an iso camera in motion or stills.
IMO
BC
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This is hugly. frankly.
The ultra-high isos is bearable but not filmic grain at all. I find the output very video-like.
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"By the Light of the Moon"
http://vimeo.com/36512776
Either they relied on AF, or the focus puller should be shot. Impressive IQ, though.
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In another forum the guy was explaining that he could hardly see to focus it was so dark. And the C300 doesnt have autofocus. He tried to do the same shot on his 5D2 but couldn't see a thing through it. Makes it even more impressive IMO.
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In another forum the guy was explaining that he could hardly see to focus it was so dark. And the C300 doesnt have autofocus. He tried to do the same shot on his 5D2 but couldn't see a thing through it. Makes it even more impressive IMO.
It makes for an impressive tech demo, but for a painful viewing experience. ie. 99% of everything produced by photographers doing video.
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It makes for an impressive tech demo, but for a painful viewing experience. ie. 99% of everything produced by photographers doing video.
It was obviously done with no budget.
Given that you have to look past the content and see that about 2/3's of what use to take 75 people can now be done with 10.
Especially the low light road shots.
That's what the Hollywood suits are looking for.
Look at any episodic TV show, or medium budget movie. Most are graded and colored like crap, with a few exceptions and nobody knows or cares if it was shot with a $70,000 arri or a $2,500 5d2.
Sure, they're exceptions to every rule. Download a high quality version of AMC's Hell on Wheels and you'll see beautiful color work, though it takes a lot of time and money.
I'm not the biggest fan of the Canon 300 for a lot of reasons, but I have to admit this low light stuff really opened my eyes.
IMO
BC
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Look at any episodic TV show, or medium budget movie. Most are graded and colored like crap, with a few exceptions and nobody knows or cares if it was shot with a $70,000 arri or a $2,500 5d2.
Most have also as much investment in the story, ie. almost none. Low budget is no excuse for a lack of story - in fact, if you can't shine with video quality, story becomes even more important. On the flipside, one doesn't need great image quality if the story is strong.
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The Hollywood sharks of the B productions couldn't be happier with this Canon. It's going to increase drastically their margen and at the same time will put more technicians on the unemployement offices queues.
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It makes for an impressive tech demo, but for a painful viewing experience. ie. 99% of everything produced by photographers doing video.
That's because photographers are the equivalent of cinematographers, not directors. Telling a story is a very different skill from taking a nice photo or shooting a pretty scene. When the 5DII first appeared I said we would get a lot of pretty slideshows [with added movement] and no story being produced by photographers and sadly I was not wrong.
Another thing to bear in mind is that you can shoot low quality footage and if the story is strong and a low fi shooting style serves said story, then it doesn't matter about iffy image quality.
However you always need good quality sound. Good sound with DV footage looks better than Technicolor with cruddy sound.
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Either they relied on AF, or the focus puller should be shot. Impressive IQ, though.
A quote from the maker on the video page.
"Thanks for not commenting on the focusing. I'm absolutely wide open on a 1.2 lens most of the time, and as the Zacuto baseplates haven't shipped, I can't use a follow focus with this camera yet. (and none of the shots are blocked, marked or otherwise planned)"
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It's also a matter of conventions and how automatically we have accepted them and don't notice anymore. We are used to night or low lights shots that really aren't, with unrealistic lighting, huge lightboxes in the background, etc... If we approached this with no preconceived ideas, the night hitchhiking shots are much closer to real life than what we usually see. I don't think the C300 would be the ideal camera for Ben Hur II, but I can see plenty of other styles that would benefit, things like Das Boot, or even Alien ;-) It has always annoyed me to see what are supposed to be dark oppressive scenes lit to the point a somewhat educated spectator could guess where the light sources were. But that's just a matter of taste.
Impressive stuff, for a single guy with a single lens. While it doesn't have the impact of something like "Reverie", we have to consider that the only thing that was cheaper in Laforet's piece was the camera. Here, we can see productions where the cost of everything goes down. Whether it is ultimately good or bad is another question of course.
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That's because photographers are the equivalent of cinematographers, not directors. Telling a story is a very different skill from taking a nice photo or shooting a pretty scene. When the 5DII first appeared I said we would get a lot of pretty slideshows [with added movement] and no story being produced by photographers and sadly I was not wrong.
This is exactly what I've been saying as well since Reverie was released, so I'm aware of this. It's just tiring to view these videos year after year when they have nothing of substance to offer - video equivalent of pixel peeping. If you thought Hollywood blockbusters are bad, try watching a few of these videos, and even Michael Bay films start looking like Casablanca.
Thanks for the quote explaining the focusing. Hope he/she plans shots when not doing tech demos...
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Feppe - I think all these wannabe directors need to learn how to write a good script before being allowed to make another boring video montage, as that's all most of them are. And learn to edit down too, please.
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I might be wrong, I mean, it has been known, but my understanding is that the guy just offered some sample footage to show how well the camera performed in damn near zero light. He explained that it was too dark to focus and I don't think he did anything more than a rough edit, and I don't recall reading anywhere that he claimed it was a finished sequence from a longer movie, let alone great art.
And yet people are choosing to criticise his artistic ability. Do we know, from what little he offered, whether he had a good script? Do we know how that sequence, once edited with whatever post, would fit into a script? Have we seen enough of his movie to say its crap? Think on it guys, why the feeding frenzy on his artistic soul when all he did was say, hey, these shots are pretty good for just a bit of moonlight and a couple of car headlights? Sometimes I just don't get what the Internet does to our standards of behaviour.
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IMO, barking on the artistic side-content of this sample is pointless, this is obviously not the purpose.
It's the equivalent of those never ending testings in stills of the Canon 1D...X at 25.000, 50.000, 100.000 isos.
What do we see? that it's capable, bearable and can save for the documentary-news a situation in certain conditions.
the difference between not getting the shot at all or getting an hugly picture but a picture. (replacing picture by footage)
It also shows the potencial of reducing drastically the budget on lightning, the hability to work with available light, or D.I.Y solutions etc...
In the hand of a creative team with zero budget, it will enhance the application range flexibility.
But it's not because you can shot a talent with the I.Phone light at 50m that it's going to avoid the crew to place corectly the scene into the available lightning sources.
Instead of placing the lights into the scene, it's the opposite, they'll have to place the talents according to the lights, wich is just as chalenging, even more IMMO.
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Sometimes I just don't get what the Internet does to our standards of behaviour.
Yeah, I met a good friend the other day and decided to behave internet forum style...
- How are you Pierre?
- Jeez, are you blind? Or just stupid? Do I look fine? Maybe you should have your glasses checked?
- Hmmm, well, can I buy you a beer?
- In this crappy location? Look at the waitress! She obviously hasn't seen a nutritionist in her life!
- come on, don't be negative, share a beer with me, mate.
- Let me educate you Paul. There's only one beer that's worth drinking, the one described by Thausing. It would really be plebeian to ignore that the most minute detail that could interfere with the copulation process of mucor mucedo can spoil a beer! And don't forget the glass, I was recently served a westvleeteren in a standard glass and that was such a letdown. It deserves no less than a well broken in gold beer mug! Only unsophisticated drinkers such as you could fail to notice the boost in taste.
Paul? Paul, why are you leaving?
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Yeah, I met a good friend the other day and decided to behave internet forum style...
- How are you Pierre?
- Jeez, are you blind? Or just stupid? Do I look fine? Maybe you should have your glasses checked?
- Hmmm, well, can I buy you a beer?
- In this crappy location? Look at the waitress! She obviously hasn't seen a nutritionist in her life!
- come on, don't be negative, share a beer with me, mate.
- Let me educate you Paul. There's only one beer that's worth drinking, the one described by Thausing. It would really be plebeian to ignore that the most minute detail that could interfere with the copulation process of mucor mucedo can spoil a beer! And don't forget the glass, I was recently served a westvleeteren in a standard glass and that was such a letdown. It deserves no less than a well broken in gold beer mug! Only unsophisticated drinkers such as you could fail to notice the boost in taste.
Paul? Paul, why are you leaving?
Thank you for this.
Whenever I'm about to reply to some post I will do my best to remember this.
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So do I.
It was a great post with accurate description. Very effective. I edited my latest post after reading this because I realised it had one of the component described...
Thanks Pierre.
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And don't forget the glass, I was recently served a westvleeteren in a standard glass and that was such a letdown.
I don't have much of an opinion on this video stuff, but Westvleteren in a regular beer glass? Now I'm outraged.
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I acknowledged that it's an impressive tech demo. It's just tiring to view these tech demos years on end - at what point do people say "ok, this is good enough, let's start making movies (or good photos)."
I guess I should further limit my pixel peeper forum attendance.
I'm done here.
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Yeah, I met a good friend the other day and decided to behave internet forum style...
- How are you Pierre?
- Jeez, are you blind? Or just stupid? Do I look fine? Maybe you should have your glasses checked?
- Hmmm, well, can I buy you a beer?
- In this crappy location? Look at the waitress! She obviously hasn't seen a nutritionist in her life!
- come on, don't be negative, share a beer with me, mate.
- Let me educate you Paul. There's only one beer that's worth drinking, the one described by Thausing. It would really be plebeian to ignore that the most minute detail that could interfere with the copulation process of mucor mucedo can spoil a beer! And don't forget the glass, I was recently served a westvleeteren in a standard glass and that was such a letdown. It deserves no less than a well broken in gold beer mug! Only unsophisticated drinkers such as you could fail to notice the boost in taste.
Paul? Paul, why are you leaving?
That is screamingly funny. Thank you.
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Feppe, I agree with you completely about endless pixel peeping, and especially when it turns into a MF vs DSLR battle. But I think this is slightly different at the moment - critical phrase at the moment - as this is a new camera that seems to be pushing the boundaries of what might be possible and people are naturally interested in that aspect of it. But if we get many more such offerings then I'll also be out of here.
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I think I have found what I need for video. A nikon with HDMI into a http://atomos.com/ninja/ a monitor like (http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/product.php?idx=67), it will all add £2-£3k to the price but will cover what I need.
The D4 with it's three crop factors is another bonus in my eyes.
I've just started constructing a gyro mount after various experiments of configurations, a D4 mounted on the gyro should cover my aerial stills and video needs. I would of liked it to be the D "X" but those crops and hdmi in the Nikon win it for me. I tried both the nikon and Canon at a show, shooting video while waving them around to induce some rolling shutter effect. Viewing on the small camera screens I could net see any.
The 300c is getting good reviews, but I don't see it as a camera that will be around for more than five minutes despite the talked about quality.
Kevin.
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The D4/recorder option seems like the dream team but..
-The mini HDMI is a very weak link in the chain unless something like the zacuto pincher fits .. which I guess it won't due to battery placement
-the D4 seems like it may have a very soft image (best to wait until they are reviewed by some video nerds)
A side note - I don't know the Atmos but my minimal experience with Sound Devices - utter brilliance - tells me that a Pix 240 would be worth checking
The crops are indeed a massive bonus !
As for the C300 being a five minute wonder.. I completely agree
Best
SamMM
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The Canon 5D2 with kit lens price has dropped into the abyss...
Normally happens when the retailers get a hint something is coming to replace it...
;)
(http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/camera_images_8/Canon/5d3/5d3-24-70.jpg)
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Well, it's the time to buy one or 2 then. I bet you my hat that the new Canon won't bring any revolution.
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www.engadget.com/2012/03/09/canon-teases-exclusive-screening-at-NAB/