Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on October 24, 2011, 01:58:08 pm
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It looks like news is coming sooner than later...
http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/10/24/rumormill-open-platform-h4x-imminent
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Now, isn't that great news!
Looks like the new owners haven't wasted any time turning around one of Mr. Poulson's dumbest decisions.
Michael
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I heard about this a few weeks ago and have been waiting for the release. Still waiting about price point. I am happy to upgrade from my H2 to have the true focus and now the 28 and 35 - 90 lens.
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Pricing is shown on the right side of the screen grab on the link.
Of course nothing should be considered official/final until they publicly announce. The price could be a place holder or out of date.
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It says 3995 Euros.
Lance
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It says 3995 Euros.
Lance
I believe that price requires trade-in of an H or H2/H2F body.
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Interesting, they must have figured out that selling lenses does generate money. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.hasselblad.com/H4x no longer works...so it seems they yanked it.
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5,559.24 U.S. Dollars
I can understand the price, but it is high and they also want me to trade in my H2? I want to keep the H2 as a backup. maybe it pays to find a really old H1 cheap and trade that.
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the site worked at as of this post
http://dev.hasselblad.com/promotions/h4x.aspx#
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This is very good news for those of us using Phase backs with H1/H2 bodies, but it raises several questions for me.
Aside from a new body, are there any advantages of an H4X over an H1 beyond the True Focus technology and the ability to use the 28mm and the 35mm-90mm lenses?
While the 28mm lens is very very good, the 35-90 zoom is really an exceptional optic. However, will these lenses perform up to their capabilities if you can't run the files through the Phocus software to apply the DAC lens corrections? Will Phase offer "comparable" lens corrections in Capture One? ( Phase already offers lens correction presets for SOME HC lenses, but not all like the new 50mm lens.) My understanding is that the 28mm and 35-90 zoom were designed with lens "imperfections" that were addressed with software-based corrections.
Finally, the 28mm and the 35-90 zoom were designed for the somewhat cropped sensor of the 39mp backs. What is the practical effect of using these lenses with a full frame back with the full frame viewfinder?
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the site worked at as of this post
http://dev.hasselblad.com/promotions/h4x.aspx#
Yep that works but is different from the url listed in the CI link...
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Interesting, they must have figured out that selling lenses does generate money. :)
yes for Fuji
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yes for Fuji
Of course!! Hasselblad have absolutely nothing to do with the design, manufacture, distribution, sales and service of H system lenses.
This kind of comment is simply intended to be provocative.
Yes, Fuji will benefit, but they are not the only party involved. This is a really old subject which is well and truly tired by now.
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This kind of comment is simply intended to be provocative.
I can be provocative too -
I'd say it's time for Phase One to get out of the camera business and go BACK to what they make best -
And time for Hasselblad to commit fully to an open system, which should bury the Mamiya once and for all.
Actually, H cameras, P backs, and C1 software sound like a very very good idea.
Also, H might go back to buying a few German lenses, there is this company called Zeiss who used to make some very nice optics which many of us like a lot ...
Edmund
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Of course!! Hasselblad have absolutely nothing to do with the design, manufacture, distribution, sales and service of H system lenses.
This kind of comment is simply intended to be provocative.
Yes, Fuji will benefit, but they are not the only party involved. This is a really old subject which is well and truly tired by now.
We all know that Hasselblad has a big part in the lenses , sorry if it was a bad joke
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We all know that Hasselblad has a big part in the lenses , sorry if it was a bad joke
As long as you don't say the lenses are the joke :)
Edmund
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As long as you don't say the lenses are the joke :)
Edmund
nooooooooo I loved my 210 :P
but I sold all because I didn't want to keep the closed H1 and I preferred Phaseone DB , the H4Dx comes late (for me) but I am really happy for Hasselblad , I shall be at the Photokina
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If anyone is planning to attend PhotoPlus in New York City - I understand a unit will be live at the Shoot-NYC event; I won't make the trip but look forward to some other LL members to get their impressions...
Here's the Shoot NYC link (http://www.shoot-nyc.com/)
For those that like/prefer the Hasselblad platform this is indeed some good news -
John
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Now, isn't that great news!
Looks like the new owners haven't wasted any time turning around one of Mr. Poulson's dumbest decisions.
Michael
I always have this mixed feeling about the decision . In one hand it harmed the users, but in the other I am almost sure that hasselblad will be broken at this moment without the bold move.
For Phase One it was the perfect position: You don't invest on cameras, getting a free ride at hasselblad's expenses, and you invest all your resources on backs, killing Hasselblad.
Today is a different scenery: Hasselblad is no longer a minor player, and Phase One is investing in a new camera.
So the change in direction is clear: Build the H4X and continue to invest on your backs.
In a single word: Maybe the direction was not bad, but now is anachronistic.
The point I never understood was why they did not buy Leaf (maybe it was just the lack of money)
Best regards,
James
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We all know that Hasselblad has a big part in the lenses , sorry if it was a bad joke
No problem at all. ;)
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The point I never understood was why they did not buy Leaf (maybe it was just the lack of money)
+1
I think this would have been a good move too.
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There ya go! I had heard Blad was going back to an open platform sometime ago and I believe I was scoffed at here for saying so.
As most people come to understand. I'm always right and it's best just to listen to me. ;) :)
Well it's about time and and is the reason I held off investing in a system as I think the Blad is the superior option available. I hope the 4x has fixed the dreaded camera lock out and take the battery out to reset nonsense. I seemed to have been scoffed at for saying this a couple times here too...
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The point I never understood was why they did not buy Leaf (maybe it was just the lack of money)
AND Kodak
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So let me get this straight........(and please correct me if I'm wrong).
If you're part of the club that owns an H1 or H2, Hasselblad will now 'open' the system for you to keep using Phase backs, but if you're not, well then too bad, you have to buy the closed Hassy product?
Am I getting this right?
If true, this is preposterous. If I have never wished death upon a camera company until now....but, wow.
- N.
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I had heard it was opening completely. This is probably their way of saving face a bit for now. The whole thing is pretty embarrassing for a company trying to be so directional, right?
Anyway. I'm sure you can find some old beat up body on ebay or craigslist. OR even better an H2 in mint condition that you can use until is conks and then have an upgrade path.
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So let me get this straight........(and please correct me if I'm wrong).
If you're part of the club that owns an H1 or H2, Hasselblad will now 'open' the system for you to keep using Phase backs, but if you're not, well then too bad, you have to buy the closed Hassy product?
Am I getting this right?
If true, this is preposterous. If I have never wished death upon a camera company until now....but, wow.
- N.
I can't imagine how you got that impression. It appears to me that they are offering a trade-in for current H/H2/H2F cameras, and have not yet mentioned the price without trade-in. They haven't even officially announced anything; it seems early to wish for their demise.
To venture a guess, the trade-in will probably be worth around $2000. If one really wished to trade in an H3 or H4 body for that sum, they might accommodate.
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How could this be a rumor when the price came from the Hasselblad web site and it includes an h camera body trade in. Maybe they will change it, but I doubt it since they already made the website and parked it off the main page.
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What a good new ! But if we read between the lines we can guess that it was becoming vital for hasselblad to open again the H-platform...indeed, the owners of the "old" H1/2 bodies started to upgrade their equipment with Phase One gear...
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What a good new ! But if we read between the lines we can guess that it was becoming vital for hasselblad to open again the H-platform...indeed, the owners of the "old" H1/2 bodies started to upgrade their equipment with Phase One gear...
+1 Agree.
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Exactly!!
I have been in a quandary for quite a while as to whether to invest in more lenses for the H, or wait and see if the new Phase body is any good, I have tested the DF extensively, as it appeared to be the logical option, but it really is rubbish. Sorry but it is, and everyone knows it, (hence the need for a completely new camera, not a DF+) and I was dreading the day the H1 finally died on me. I know that will upset many, but as a Leaf user, I want to stay with Leaf, and use the H body and lenses. I couldn't be happier at this announcement rumor.
Jason.
What a good new ! But if we read between the lines we can guess that it was becoming vital for hasselblad to open again the H-platform...indeed, the owners of the "old" H1/2 bodies started to upgrade their equipment with Phase One gear...
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What a good new ! But if we read between the lines we can guess that it was becoming vital for hasselblad to open again the H-platform...indeed, the owners of the "old" H1/2 bodies started to upgrade their equipment with Phase One gear...
I sold all my H1 gear 2 years ago for this reason
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I have to say this does seem somewhat a deliberate "mistake" by posting this on the Blad website.
Perhaps there is another camera from another manufacturer that is also imminent?
Bring it!
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Having purchased an H2F a couple of years ago for my CF39 MS, I feel like the resale value of my gently used H2F just tanked. If Hassey comes out with a new generation of CF backs, I wonder it they will be compatible with the H2F. Why should I have to spend another $4-5K to upgrade from a H2f to a H4X, if I want to get another back--whether it be a Phase, Leaf, or future generation of CF back?
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Well this has my attention. As much as I love my Contax 645 the reason I ultimately went with it was because Hassy and Phase both closed film out of their new product line. I still shoot lots of film. I'm very interested in testing Hassy glass and putting it up against my Contax glass. Since the Contax name is free of Kyocera, it'd be awesome if Zeiss started making new glass again and the 4Dx would be a very nice platform indeed. Those who shoot Hassy with film, how are the backs with film flatness? Any issues? The Contax vacuum backs sure make a difference in film flatness for 220 films.
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Result of changing direction or losing in court? ???
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Result of changing direction or losing in court? ???
No. There is no link to any supposed court case.
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Result of changing direction or losing in court? ???
I'd say the new owners took over and said something along the lines of - you did WHAT?
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Is anyone able to determine the direction of development? Open system, an integrated system, cheap new products. Is an integrated system will be further developed, either end of an era HxD firm as an integrated camera? It's high time that the "CEO" set out his vision.
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"It is not compatible with any H2D, H3D or H4D digital capture unit."
http://hasselbladusa.com/media/3082754/uk_h4x_datasheet_v1.pdf (http://hasselbladusa.com/media/3082754/uk_h4x_datasheet_v1.pdf)
Really disappointing that it cannot be used as a backup body for an H3D or H4D camera while acting as a body for a 3rd party back. I suppose this is because the body doesn't supply power to the back, but that should have been solved.
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So let me get this straight........(and please correct me if I'm wrong).
If you're part of the club that owns an H1 or H2, Hasselblad will now 'open' the system for you to keep using Phase backs, but if you're not, well then too bad, you have to buy the closed Hassy product?
Am I getting this right?
If true, this is preposterous. If I have never wished death upon a camera company until now....but, wow.
- N.
I can't imagine how you got that impression. It appears to me that they are offering a trade-in for current H/H2/H2F cameras, and have not yet mentioned the price without trade-in. They haven't even officially announced anything; it seems early to wish for their demise.
To venture a guess, the trade-in will probably be worth around $2000. If one really wished to trade in an H3 or H4 body for that sum, they might accommodate.
Well, I was completely and utterly wrong in my response above. My apologies.
It seems that Hasselblad is determined to shoot itself in the foot on this.
Can I buy the new H4X body without a trade in?
The new H4X camera is designed to upgrade the functionality of the current H1, H2 and H2F camera users only. To exchange the new camera it is required that the old H1/H2/H2F camera is returned to Hasselblad. It will not be possible to buy this camera, but only trade-in. If you are an H3D customer, you can not exchange that camera for a new H4X trade-in camera.
http://hasselbladusa.com/promotions/h4x-questions-and-answers.aspx (http://hasselbladusa.com/promotions/h4x-questions-and-answers.aspx)
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So let me get this straight........(and please correct me if I'm wrong).
If you're part of the club that owns an H1 or H2, Hasselblad will now 'open' the system for you to keep using Phase backs, but if you're not, well then too bad, you have to buy the closed Hassy product?
Am I getting this right?
If true, this is preposterous. If I have never wished death upon a camera company until now....but, wow.
- N.
You seem to want to join the club but feel challenged in finding an H1 or H2 to trade in on an H4X. If so, I can help as I have a spare H1 that I can offer to you at a good price.
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I'd be angry too if I had to shoot with the Mamiya DF.
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Can I buy the new H4X body without a trade in?
The new H4X camera is designed to upgrade the functionality of the current H1, H2 and H2F camera users only. To exchange the new camera it is required that the old H1/H2/H2F camera is returned to Hasselblad. It will not be possible to buy this camera, but only trade-in. If you are an H3D customer, you can not exchange that camera for a new H4X trade-in camera.
http://hasselbladusa.com/promotions/h4x-questions-and-answers.aspx (http://hasselbladusa.com/promotions/h4x-questions-and-answers.aspx)
You have got to be kidding me right? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, when did Hasselblad become so anti-photographers? Victor must be rolling in his grave right now.
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I'd say the new owners took over and said something along the lines of - you did WHAT?
No the idea came from an existing Hasselblad employee and had been discussed well before the new owners came on board.
Nick-T
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when did Hasselblad become so anti-photographers?
They've been antagonistic for a few years now. Closing off the H3/H4, calling 48x36mm "full frame", making the 28mm lens only work with Hasselblad backs. I was hoping this foolishness would end with the new owners but perhaps not. I'm still hoping to see them do the right thing, just for the sake of the industry. I'm shooting a Hy6 so I'm not personally affected.
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Yes they are ridiculously bad, this really takes the piss. They abandon their customers in the first place and now after everyone traded in their H1 and 2's they open their doors again wanting you to comply with their greedy capitalistic schemes. It's pathetic. I do think they are just saving face because they made one of the industries greatest cock ups in history. I'm guessing that the H5D will be an open platform camera and not particularly far off anyway. That way they can rob you even more.
So they now have control of the used market as well. Wow, can't wait to see what the evil genius at Hasselblads next move is ::)
poor, poor old Vic
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"I'm guessing that the H5D will be an open platform camera..."
I'm not sure they will renounce their digital back activity, the investment in Imacon digital back is too heavy for Hasselblad to change his strategy...
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I'm not sure they will renounce their digital back activity, the investment in Imacon digital back is too heavy for Hasselblad to change his strategy...
There is no way the Phaseone backs are perfect enough that a competitor cannot do much better in terms of usability/performance/price to quality ratio,...
Instead of trying to lock up everything, they should try to compete by delivering better value to the photographers with better digital products.
What we have here is obviously the externalization of internal issues within the company, probably with some key engineers, who do not have the skills it takes to move the company forward. These discussions are always tough ones, but it very much looks like new blood is needed... not at the level of the ownership, but at the level of top engineering.
Cheers,
Bernard
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In the hopes of seeing the venerable company that is Hasselblad get their act together I hereby deploy the mightiest of weapons... sarcasm ::)
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is this for real? :o
look forward to the resident hblad apologists response.
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>@Bernard Languillier
For me the origin of the problem is not at the level of top engineering, it is the chosen strategy by Hasselblad/Imacon which is difficult to apply to the medium-format market size. You can have a closed platform when you sell zillions cameras like Canon or Nikon, but not when you sell medium-format where the owners expect much more complementary equipments (the camera+the digital back) than "pure" performance...
At this market size, complementarity pays much more than frontal concurrency between closed platforms.
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They've been antagonistic for a few years now. Closing off the H3/H4, calling 48x36mm "full frame", making the 28mm lens only work with Hasselblad backs. I was hoping this foolishness would end with the new owners but perhaps not. I'm still hoping to see them do the right thing, just for the sake of the industry. I'm shooting a Hy6 so I'm not personally affected.
It is so bizarre that the antagonistic responses to Hasselblad's release of the new H4X are from people like you who don't use, and would NEVER use, a Hasselblad product. If I were you, this is what I would be raising hell about, not the H4X. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31379.
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It is so bizarre that the antagonistic responses to Hasselblad's release of the new H4X are from people like you who don't use, and would NEVER use, a Hasselblad product. If I were you, this is what I would be raising hell about, not the H4X. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31379.
May be this is the 1st step to admit that they were wrong to close their system. In the computer world closed system mostly gone or getting smaller and smaller.
H body is a great system. But repairing cost is very high. I think that is why a lot of H user move to Phase body.
I am judging too. All my 4 H bodies shutter need to replace at about 30K actuation. And cost US$1,300.
Maintenance is killing me right now. I am so much worried about the durability of H4X.
What is the cost of trade in? 3,995 Euros?
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Hmmm. On the surface of it, this is a very good move, sure to be welcomed by H1 and H2 users. This is as it should be, and I applaud Hasselblad for the move.
If one were a little cynical, you could see this as a purely defensive play to protect the rental market, which has a huge impact not only on Hasselblads bottom line, but on its presence in the MF market.
Put yourself in she shoes of a rental studio manager for a moment.....
You have a MASSIVE investment in H series lenses, a lot of tired and ageing H1 and H2 bodies and a mix of Leaf, Phase and Hasselblad backs. You may even have some H3 and H4 "Complete camera systems" as there is some demand to rent these.
Replacing your H1 and H2 bodies with H4's doesn't work within the rental business model as all the backs need to be interchangeable with all the bodies for the business model to be effective.
Due to the ageing of your bodies, your servicing costs are skyrocketing. Your main supplier of cameras, Hasselblad, is insisting that with every replacement body you buy, you have to buy another back. This is not only cost prohibitive, but that particular back can not be used on the dozens of other bodies you have in your inventory.
At some point in time, this problem gets to a tipping point and you have a very serious problem. Your only practical solution is to pick up the phone and call your Danish friends.
Unless I've read this wrong, many rental studios hit that tipping point inside the last 12 months.
The pressure was increased exponentially by the release of the shiny new backs from Denmark. I include in this the newly-Danish backs with the little green logo. Customers want to rent these, but you can't put them on the newer Swedish cameras, only the old, tired ones.
Suddenly, that massive investment you have in superb Swedish optics, which your customers know and love, is starting to look like a liability, not an asset. Your only real alternative has for some time been the Japanese glass, now Danish controlled. The reputation of the Japanese glass, prior to Danish control, was patchy at best, so you never took it that seriously. However, when the Danes got into bed with a small German crew sailing under a flag with "Schneider" on it, the view on the horizon took on a somewhat rosier tint.....
Meanwhile back in Sweden, a new Commander-in-Cheif has just been sworn in....
Surveying the strategic map in Rental-land, he sees, finally, that his great strategy for world domination, the "Complete Camera System", is going to cost him this battle, and maybe the war.
He orders a tactical adjustment and fires his new weapon, the H4x, across the bows of the onrushing Danish armada. In the back of his mind, he is also troubled by intelligence reports that the Danes, armed with secret plans (patents) acquired from treaties with the Israelis, are preparing to deploy their own dreaded secret weapon.....
So focussed was he on this battle, he completely forgot that the great mass of loyal subjects, whose loyalty to his products actually funded his great crusade, might want to be freed of their shackles too. Suddenly, the Commander-in-cheif begins to hear mutinous mutterings from his crack units, the H3 Brigade and the H4 Commandos.
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of THE HASSELPHASE WARS!!!!!
We live in interesting times indeed..
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It is so bizarre that the antagonistic responses to Hasselblad's release of the new H4X are from people like you who don't use, and would NEVER use, a Hasselblad product. If I were you, this is what I would be raising hell about, not the H4X. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31379.
How wrong you are.
1) this is far from 'raising hell'
2) I have been a Hasselblad customer in the past and if they came out with a killer new camera in the future I would definitely consider it
3) I have every right to express an opinion on here, regardless of which equipment I currently own, and
4) I have raised a support case about the Leaf CF issues and am working with them to help them solve it.
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Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of THE HASSELPHASE WARS!!!!!
I am afraid it will soon look like a war between VHS and Betamax on CRTs while the world watches HD downloads on mobile devices...
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am afraid it will soon look like a war between VHS and Betamax on CRTs while the world watches HD downloads on mobile devices...
Cheers,
Bernard
Are you the same guy who predicted that TV would be the end of radio, and video the end of cinemas, etc etc?
I have never had the level of demand I currently do for ultra-resolution imagery. I've had to evolve my business in response to opportunities presented by the new technology, but far from shrinking, my business is growing exponentially. This techno revolution is nothing new. Some operators will evolve, others will die. C'est la vie.
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You have got to be kidding me right? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, when did Hasselblad become so anti-photographers? Victor must be rolling in his grave right now.
Not the first nor the last time :-\
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There is no way the Phaseone backs are perfect enough that a competitor cannot do much better in terms of usability/performance/price to quality ratio,...
Instead of trying to lock up everything, they should try to compete by delivering better value to the photographers with better digital products.
What we have here is obviously the externalization of internal issues within the company, probably with some key engineers, who do not have the skills it takes to move the company forward. These discussions are always tough ones, but it very much looks like new blood is needed... not at the level of the ownership, but at the level of top engineering.
Cheers,
Bernard
Owner gives money, counting on a good return. In my humble opinion, it is not the fault of the engineers. You should have the absolutely best special forces, but without a good command of General in the staff do nothing ...
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For everyone that gets so heated at Hasselblad, they all seem to really want one.
I kind of don't get it about the open closed system, because until every back will fit on any camera and run in any software, to some extent every system is somewhat closed off.
I also don't get why the closed off thing is such a complaint. Apple is completely closed loop and we all know how well they're doing, so given my choice of Apple of PC, I'd rather go the Apple route.
I also don't get some of the replies on this thread.
I remember someone that was very pro phase one say to me a few years ago, "if Hasselblad wants to compete they should make a better digital back".
(I think from all reports they have).
My response to the reply was, "will phase make a better camera?".
(I think from all reports they are trying).
So in the end what does it matter? If you have a burning desire to put a Phase back on a H series you can, you just have to buy a used H, trade it in and get a new one.
Personally, I think what Hasselblad did was good for the professional industry as it let rental houses and owners of used, worn H series upgrade their bodies while still keeping their equity in their H lenses (regardless of the digital back).
Just running the numbers, if I had a burning desire to add to my Contax backs and cameras and needed a leaf shutter camera, I'd just buy a Hd 40. I think they go for a little under 20 grand.
When you compare the price of a $21,000 phase IQ 40, plus the cost of a used H series, plus the cost of a new H4 body, the numbers work better on the hasselblad side.
But to each his own, though as I said at the start, nothing keeps anyone from buying an H4 body and putting any back on it, if you want to spend the time and money.
IMO
BC
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Yes it's true. They/I do want one. It's a good camera. What gets me about a move like this is there's no telling what the company will do next. Do I reinvest in a camera that I think is better or do I wait for a better safer option which I'm sure is not hat far off. What most likely people are angry about is that after buying hasselblad for almost 20 years and having been able to choose what ever back they want to use for as long as backs have been about, all of a sudden they say - No, you can't do that. Buy our back instead. After been told and convinced that Hasselblad was closed and in no way going back, people who preferred their aftermarket backs, because they believe them to be better, moved on at considerable investment elsewhere. Now, only a short few years later and they open it up again with some ridiculously hair brained corporate scheme dreamed up by monkeys with suits on just twists the knife again. It is indeed a joke.
It's the fact that every one wants one that they can do this and it smacks of corporate greed. Unless you are living under a rock, and most likely this company is, the world is still in recession and the world has changed because of it - People are savvy now, they know they are having the wool pooled over their eyes. People can see through this kinda crap now. Switch on the news right nowpand see the worlds reaction to it with the occupy Wall Street demonstrations that are happening world wide. It is the zeitgeist. It is not a timely business decision and one probably based on saving face from the previous cock up.
While it's not the end of the world you can understand why people aren't particularly happy and so long as these companies think that people are happy with this kind of rubbish they will continues to do so it and rob you blind.
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I don't own a hasselblad, don't have a dog in this hunt, but I don't get this corporate greed thing everyone talks a about.
I kind of understood back in the early stages when we transitioned from film to digital stills, why people didn't like it when Hasselblad closed their system. After all, most of us had a film mindset where we could put any film in any camera, but back then the film didn't costs 10 times more than the camera.
Now the "digital film" is the profit in camera making, so what's Hasselblad to do, make a system for their competitors?
Actually Hasselblad and Sinar were the only two "digital film" makers who had completely open systems. You could buy one of their backs and put it on almost any camera with an adapter, but for some reason the response wasn't that strong so they dropped it and went more proprietary.
Anyway.
With the "new" economy everyone in business protects their brand and maximizes profit. (In reality the smart one's always have).
Since our studios are full production, I have a few calls from clients that say "uh, well, you know our uh VP wants to use this guy in NY and we were wondering if we could use your presser, camera operator, studio manager, editor, stylist, etc. etc..
My response though delicate is NO.
It doesn't add to my business and it helps the competition.
If I was hasselblad, I'd do the same thing, heck I'd even find ways to make my position stronger, not weaker.
In fact I think the new economic world has proven that everyone is in competition. If gas goes up, disneyland profits go down, if your kid needs braces you don't buy a bass boat, if some photographer buys a new phase back for their H camera he is less likely to buy new lenses.
So yes I understand the economy, but I also understand leveraging your strongest asset.
Hasselblad has the only removable prism, medium format, autofocus camera with a full autofocus, shuuter in lens set and the only one in the last 10 years that can say that.
That's a strength.
They are the only professional camera company that offers world wide shows and competitions for free and allows users of other medium format brands to enter.
That's not greed, that showcases the professional photography industry.
Check out the price of Hasselblad repairs next to the competition. They are much more than competitive, so I don't see greed I see a company doing business with the thought of return customers.
But let's flip it .
Why doesn't Phase One offer their software for Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica tethering and processing? They do for Canon and Nikon, they use to do it for Leica.
It's because Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica are competitors and Phase One's software is one of it's core assets, it's a strength and they use it.
So they should.
IMO
BC
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Very well put BC
/David
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Hum... sorry, but this is pretty short term thinking.
Is Hasselblad in fact not helping Phaseone come up with a better platform by giving them no other option? Is the uniqueness of Hassy assets not going to end up being depreciated by having another competitive platform in town? With a bit of realism and respect you must reach the conclusion that the next Phaseone platform is going to be competitive 2 years down the road (I mean competitive as an MF platform).
Would it not have been better for Hassy to sell reasonnably affordable rights to use the Hassy platform so that every back sold by phase generates royalties for Hassy? That would have been a fair and reasonable settlement , a true win-win deal IMHO.
Now, these discussions did perhaps take place. If phaseone refused such an offer, they are in fact those de facto responsible for the closure of the Hassy platform. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hasselblad has the only removable prism, medium format, autofocus camera with a full autofocus, shuuter in lens set and the only one in the last 10 years that can say that.
Ummm...the Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi meet all of those specs too.
Ray
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Ummm...the Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi meet all of those specs too.
Ray
Your right, except there are no autofocus wide angle lenses, but the HY6 coulda/woulda been a game changer if it had more penetration in the market, especially rentals.
That's one of the most difficult thing about large production is how many backups you need, what do you buy, what do you rent. Few people that don't need it weekly are going to buy a 28mm lens, or two extra bodies.
Once again this illustrates how every maker protects their own interest (which I think is fine). Phase invested in Mamiya so that is their focus (not phocus).
Rollei or F+H or whoever owns the HY6 just never got out on the shelf early with everything in place and all back makers involved, especially Phase.
Regardless you can't blame a company for seeing after their own self interests. I know my responsibility is to the people I pay so I do everything I can to leverage work in my favor.
I'm sure the owners and management of all the camera companies feel the same way.
IMO
BC
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Hum... sorry, but this is pretty short term thinking.
Is Hasselblad in fact not helping Phaseone come up with a better platform by giving them no other option? Is the uniqueness of Hassy assets not going to end up being depreciated by having another competitive platform in town? With a bit of realism and respect you must reach the conclusion that the next Phaseone platform is going to be competitive 2 years down the road (I mean competitive as an MF platform).
Would it not have been better for Hassy to sell reasonnably affordable rights to use the Hassy platform so that every back sold by phase generates royalties for Hassy? That would have been a fair and reasonable settlement , a true win-win deal IMHO.
Now, these discussions did perhaps take place. If phaseone refused such an offer, they are in fact those de facto responsible for the closure of the Hassy platform. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
That's a very interesting question, Bernard. However, for better or worse for both Hasselblad and Phase, this ship has sailed. Phase had to protect itself and bought Mamiya, which is apparently working on developing what I hope is truly an all new state of the art medium format camera platform. However, my hope here is tempered by the fact that the camera designers and engineers behind the new Phase camera are Mamiya legacy people, and there is nothing in the DNA of Mamiya that I find reassuring. This is not Leica, Hasselblad or Contax. It's Mamiya. Could Chevrolet design and engineer and produce a BMW? No way. Can Mamiya make its own version of a Leica S2 or an H4? We'll see.
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One of the justifications for closed systems has been the higher tolerances required. One of the benefits of a such a closed system is the high quality DAC because most of the possible component combinations are known. But I've never understood the tolerances part - almost every high tolerance mechanical device that I can think of from my science and engineering days had some method for fine adjustment - shims or adjusting screws or something. I keep thinking these closed systems must have that somewhere under the skin because otherwise how could they be calibrated initially at the factory? If the manufacturers should make anything open, it should be this adjustment factor so that users or small shops can help users get their cameras and lenses calibrated properly and keep them so. And the same for the DAC - why not provide the methods for users to build and share DAC's for alternative glass etc. Now that would be "open".
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On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.
Hats Off!
Edmund
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On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.
Hats Off!
Edmund
It would be so if the camera was available in regular sales ;)
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On reflection, I'd say that the release of the H4x is the nicest thing that Hassy could do for MF photographers, and their own dealers, and the nastiest thing they could do to to their competition.
Hats Off!
Edmund
At the risk of sounding like a newbie, how does this hurt the competition?
If I already have a P1 H back, I may consider a H4X body only if I need TrueFocus/TrueExposure. If I need 1/4000s shutter speeds with flash sync at 1/1600, I'd go with a DF body with the LS lenses. I haven't found anything really special about the Hasselblad backs (IAA?). With a H4X body and a P1 back, the convenience of a single battery for the back and body.
Not to mention that the DF bodies and lenses are a little more weatherproof than the H4 bodies and backs, making for a camera and back that puts up with tougher environments.
And that's assuming that P1 would take the chance of making H backs again, after how Hasselblad pulled the plug on them on the H3 and let them hanging with a bunch of H backs that would appeal only to H1/2/3 users.
If anything, the H4X simply means that people who have H backs can now upgrade to a new body with TF/TE and honestly, little else as far as I can tell. It may stop existing Hasselblad shooters with older bodies and P1 backs from trading in to a DF with LS lenses and a newer P1 M back, but that's about it...
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Question for DG:
I give my h2 - I can buy three body H4x? If I can buy only one H4x... What happens if someone steals my camera, or if such will be destroyed? Will I be able to buy another H4x?
HV 90x II viewfinder - any new version, if so how is it different?
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Aren't you forgetting that Leaf is part of the Phase family now? Those guys were key partners with Sinar and Rollei in the development of the Hy6, a process that generated much knowledge and experience and the odd patent or two. I suspect they might just be incolved in the development of this new camera.
My experience of Phase, as a long-term customer of theirs is that they are very, very responsive to user demands, as far as the inputs to their R&D is concerned. I'd wager they are very aware of the limitations of the DF and also the limitations as well of the strengths of the Hassel.
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At the risk of sounding like a newbie, how does this hurt the competition?
If I already have a P1 H back, I may consider a H4X body only if I need TrueFocus/TrueExposure. If I need 1/4000s shutter speeds with flash sync at 1/1600, I'd go with a DF body with the LS lenses. I haven't found anything really special about the Hasselblad backs (IAA?). With a H4X body and a P1 back, the convenience of a single battery for the back and body.
Not to mention that the DF bodies and lenses are a little more weatherproof than the H4 bodies and backs, making for a camera and back that puts up with tougher environments.
And that's assuming that P1 would take the chance of making H backs again, after how Hasselblad pulled the plug on them on the H3 and let them hanging with a bunch of H backs that would appeal only to H1/2/3 users.
If anything, the H4X simply means that people who have H backs can now upgrade to a new body with TF/TE and honestly, little else as far as I can tell. It may stop existing Hasselblad shooters with older bodies and P1 backs from trading in to a DF with LS lenses and a newer P1 M back, but that's about it...
Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?
There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.
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Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?
There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.
The problem with this forum is that in addition to doctors and dentists and engineers there are actually some working photographers. Very annoying, they may speak truth to vendors about the emperor's new camera.
Edmund
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Ever used a H body as well as a DF body? Ever used TF?
There is a reason people are really adamant on not using a DF body but keep clinging on to their H1/H2 bodies even if they are practically falling apart now from age and usage.
I have used a 645 AFD II before this, but not the H1/2/3. I practically shoot in TF all the time as I see no benefit in turning it off anyway. I did try the DF body for awhile, and that was the other choice - like I said, it was choosing between something that I felt was more comfortable (ergonomics) and convenient (single battery) to shoot with and I was quite sold on TF after trying out the H4D at a HUG event, over a system (DF/80LS/Aptus II 6) that offered faster shutter speeds (2.5 stops - 1/4000 vs 1/800), faster flash sync (1 stop - 1/1600 vs 1/800) and a lower base ISO (1 stop - 50 vs 100). The DF's AF was a huge jump over my 645 AFD II's and pretty much close to what the H4D was delivering.\
To add, when I was shooting with my 645AFD II and an Aptus 65 back, I never once found any dust getting between the body and sensor. With the Hasselblad, I find myself having to clean the sensor with every 2 outdoor shoots - in this respect, it feels like the Phamiya system is designed to put up with harsher environments. Maybe it was just bad luck, but that's how it turned out.
For some people, it's a matter of preference, nothing wrong with that. There are a number of H1/2 shooters out there with Leaf/P1 H-mount MFDBs and that having an option to upgrade to a newer body while retaining the back and lenses (cost-effective), so the H4X is a welcome addition to the Hasselblad family in that respect.
But to declare that this move was designed to hurt the competition seems a little strong, and I'm trying to figure out if I missed anything along that line of thought. While I was fairly comfortable shooting with the Phamiya system, the Hasselblad just felt better to use, not to mention that C1P does more for me than Phocus does (at the very least, it doesn't crash as much when I shoot tethered)
I don't have any specific loyalties to either side, and usually work with whatever feels more comfortable in my hands. And I'm neither a doctor nor an engineer.
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I have used a 645 AFD II before this, but not the H1/2/3. I practically shoot in TF all the time...
Sorry you have never used a H but shoot TF all the time??? What do you mean by TF? Most of us here are referring to True Focus which is currently only available in the H4. I find TF really useful.
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The problem with this forum is that in addition to doctors and dentists and engineers there are actually some working photographers. Very annoying, they may speak truth to vendors about the emperor's new camera.
Edmund
+1000 ;D
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Sorry you have never used a H but shoot TF all the time??? What do you mean by TF? Most of us here are referring to True Focus which is currently only available in the H4. I find TF really useful.
Dude, how could you have possibly formed the impression that he "never used a H"? He says is 4 or 5 separate parts of his post that he tested and uses a H4D, and shoots tethered with Phocus (but it crashes), and has problems with dust in his H camera!
"I practically shoot in TF all the time..."
"...I was quite sold on TF after trying out the H4D..."
"With the Hasselblad, I find myself having to clean the sensor with every 2 outdoor shoots..."
"...the Hasselblad just felt better to use..."
"...does more for me than Phocus does (at the very least, it doesn't crash as much when I shoot tethered)"
Ray
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Can i ask a simple question? Why did Doug Peterson post this?
Why wouldn't you let a Hasselblad Rep. post this? Oh right because it now affects Phase users right? :rolleyes:
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Can i ask a simple question? Why did Doug Peterson post this?
Why wouldn't you let a Hasselblad Rep. post this? Oh right because it now affects Phase users right? :rolleyes:
Yes, it does indeed affect Phase users, greatly. And Leaf users, and Sinar users. Let's not forget, even Eyelike users (there was a Hasselblad H interface for Eyelike digital backs). So...I don't see the issue. It's an open forum (unlike camera systems), anyone could have posted it.
You're welcome!
Steve Hendrix
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Personally, I think what Hasselblad did was good for the professional industry as it let rental houses and owners of used, worn H series upgrade their bodies while still keeping their equity in their H lenses (regardless of the digital back).
IMO
BC
I agree - the net result is that things are better for those who own or who are interested in the platform, should they be inclined to use a Phase, Leaf, etc. digital back. The hard part about our business is that there are many unknowns behind the decisions of companies who create photographic products, and that is no truer anywhere else than the medium format segment. And not much effort is spent publicly articulating what is behind the decision making. That is the case because frequently it is not in the interest of the manufacturer to share that information, regardless of how forthcoming they wish to be, some elements of the information may be strategically revealing, and even affect formal and informal mergers, partnerships, etc. Which means we're all left to speculate and in my experience, I would say the best attempts of all of us are less than 50% on the money.
So, I like to look at the bottom line and so what this means to any medium format digital user at this point is that in a year or two time, they'll likely have a substantially enhanced camera platform available from Phase One/Mamiya to choose from, while at the same time, H1/H2 owners (or buyers) just got a boost to the H platform, with the option of an H4X, a better camera than an H1/H2, and brand new to boot. Even if a Phase One or Leaf /H1/H2 user would consider a camera change at some point, with the H4X the need to do so will certainly feel less time sensitive.
Steve Hendrix
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No no, i meant for a non-Phase supplier to respond. You know, non-biased and all.... ::)
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Sorry you have never used a H but shoot TF all the time??? What do you mean by TF? Most of us here are referring to True Focus which is currently only available in the H4. I find TF really useful.
TF = True Focus
I have said before, I use a H4D-31, having come from a 645 AFD II. And yes, I have used a DF as well, and have tried the H3D, though not the H1 or H2.
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Ah allright. Sorry about that. I guess I overlooked that part somewhere.
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I welcome the move of Hasselblad, though I also think the choice should be freely available, this combination with an upgrade is....suboptimal....well but that´s kind of symptomatic.
Further I still think as nice as it is, if there are backs of other brands supported, it still needs to have a Hasselblad H mount, which needs to be made specifically.
As it showed during the last time that more or less any of the back mounts have their specific glitches(specifically if you need to mount them to tech cameras!) and digital tolerances go narrower with every resolution improvement I think it would be the day now to speak about a unified digital back mount, something like the 4/5 , 5/7 , 8/10 international standard for film cassettes that was perfectly working for all makers.
I cannot remember anybody complaining in the past that the standardization was taking away business from a single brand.
The only thing that has happened with this nonsense of digital proprietary systems is a loss of user convenience - at raised prices.
With today´s knowledge of the last 15 years of development a much better and reliable mount could be standardized. The old film cassettes are history now. Its overdue !
A mount that is public domain in it´s dimensions, has perfect sealing for dust, water and stray light, clicks in securely with one hand and can only be removed with either 2 hands or a special
one hand usable locked button that cannot unlock incidentally. This could also be made for better flatness and to prevent shimming.
Also the electronic contacts need to be unified so that this back will work on all bodies and tech cameras without cabling.
This is what I am asking for and what I think is needed for a 21st century professional camera that fulfills the needs of working Pros !
Too much asked ? I don´t think so. the back makers need their homeworks done, otherwise the Japanese will show how this is done.
Please sit down and talk ! There are only 2 parties left Phase/Leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad ,so this should be possible.
Forget about for a second securing your sales and think about your customers interests !!!!
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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The problem with this forum is that in addition to doctors and dentists and engineers there are actually some working photographers. Very annoying, they may speak truth to vendors about the emperor's new camera.
Edmund
I think that this comment is highly prejudicial to many fine and wealthy doctors, dentists and engineers who like to buy expensive gadgets. It also excludes the many other fine professions such as lawyers, bankers, hedge fund managers, speculators, gamblers and bank robbers who also like to buy expensive gadgets. If the western economy had to rely on the photographic professional to keep the wheels of commerce liberally oiled we would all be truly screwed. LOL ;D
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I think that this comment is highly prejudicial to many fine and wealthy doctors, dentists and engineers who like to buy expensive gadgets. It also excludes the many other fine professions such as lawyers, bankers, hedge fund managers, speculators, gamblers and bank robbers who also like to buy expensive gadgets. If the western economy had to rely on the photographic professional to keep the wheels of commerce liberally oiled we would all be truly screwed. LOL ;D
I would add I know or know of several doctors and lawyers (an example is Mahesh Thapa (http://starvingphotographer.smugmug.com/gallery/11446054_LBZL3)) who own very nice equipment that are much better photographers than many photographers I know, but they make too much money to give up their day job.
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I would add I know or know of several doctors and lawyers (an example is Mahesh Thapa (http://starvingphotographer.smugmug.com/gallery/11446054_LBZL3)) who own very nice equipment that are much better photographers than many photographers I know, but they make too much money to give up their day job.
These days why am I not surprised? ;D I wish I had a nice normal career to fall back on...
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I own an H4D-50 so I'm not a potential customer for the H4x. I agree it would be preferable simply to sell the camera to anyone who wants one and not require a trade in of a H1 or H2, but what the heck, its a step towards a more open platform, so I can't understand the hysterical reaction of a few to the trade in restriction. Its just a camera. Get over it already ;D
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I think that this comment is highly prejudicial to many fine and wealthy doctors, dentists and engineers who like to buy expensive gadgets. It also excludes the many other fine professions such as lawyers, bankers, hedge fund managers, speculators, gamblers and bank robbers who also like to buy expensive gadgets. If the western economy had to rely on the photographic professional to keep the wheels of commerce liberally oiled we would all be truly screwed. LOL ;D
Nah, the point I was trying to make is that the l,b,h,s,g,br above don't fight as much for better stuff as those starving penniless Medium Format photographers.
Edmund
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I own an H4D-50 so I'm not a potential customer for the H4x. I agree it would be preferable simply to sell the camera to anyone who wants one and not require a trade in of a H1 or H2, but what the heck, its a step towards a more open platform, so I can't understand the hysterical reaction of a few to the trade in restriction. Its just a camera. Get over it already ;D
doesn't appear to be more open at all to me ... just solving a current problem they have. I don't care (in fact have a used H1 that I may even be able to sell now)
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My H2F isn't very tired. In fact, it's damn peppy.