Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: shewhorn on October 03, 2011, 05:15:32 pm
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Just curious if anyone else has had issues with heads needing to be replaced MUCH sooner than should be necessary, bad sensors, and/or motherboard failures?
My machine is going through extremely long cleaning cycles (it's wasted TONS of ink), and failing at the end of the cycle with error 2F44. When I restart the machine, it's absolutely fine. I've printed out nozzle checks and it's always passed until recently when the right head failed. I replaced that hoping it would solve the problem but it's still there. In addition to the $450 I've spent on the head (which shouldn't have failed this early, the machine is VERY well cared for and I'm almost through the first set of ink carts so it's not like it's had heavy use), and the many 15 minute long deep cleaning cycles it's run by itself (wasting tons of ink), Canon is telling me that I might need to spend an additional $1450 plus labor. I think it's beyond unreasonable for a machine to have this many failures just 5 months out of warranty. I'm wondering what other people's experience has been?
Cheers, Joe
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My experience is with the 6100, so perhaps it doesn't directly apply, but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
I just replaced my L printhead after only about 400 sqft of printing. It was a good 8 months out of warranty so Canon didn't do anything, but luckily a new printhead fixed it. I think I had the same error code as you so I'm surpripsed your new printhead didn't solve the issue. Could it be saying this for the other printhead maybe? I'm thinking that a new printhead would solve all your issues, but only for the oen side. So if the machine is still doing lots of cleanings, it might be because of the other unreplaced printhead. The other thing I"m thinking is that a new printhead should now have a certain amount of warranty attached to it. So if the same printhead is giving you trouble, I would hope that Canon would help you out.
When I look at the prices of these printers, espeically when they come with rebates or even a free set of inks, spending $1500 to fix one is just not smart. You can get a brand new one for $2300 I think, and it will come with the full set of 330ml inks which is at least $1500 in value or there abouts??
Anyway... hope your problems get fixed soon.
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Thanks Kiran,
I also have a 6100 and it ran reliably from 2007 until the end of 2009 when I had to replace both heads. The machine didn't get much use after that and then when slightly out of warranty, both heads failed which makes me wonder if Canon has a quality control issue that is part of the corporate culture there (I'm not basing this on just my experience with two printers, but also having had $20k worth of Canon DSLR equipment which was EXTREMELY unreliable). With regards to the 8300, it could be the other head but if it is, those issues aren't showing up on a nozzle check, it passes with flying colors (no pun intended... although if I could throw an 8300 out my window there may very well be flying colors :-) this is frustrating ).
Cheers, Joe
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So.. they charge a $1400 flat rate fee. If all that is wrong with the machine is a $50 sensor, I pay $1400. If it's a $450 head, I pay $1400. If it's a $1000 motherboard... $1400. If it was the motherboard, head, and sensor, then I'd make out quite well.
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Gosh.. this is a tough one. Since you're not exactly sure why the constant cleanings happen, I think it makes logical sense that it is the other printhead. Many people report that they fail within weeks or months of eachother. Also, I've read that a perfect nozzle check gives you no indication of trouble because the bad nozzles are automatically mapped to other good working nozzles. Its only when there aren't enough spares to use that you notice trouble, but really, at this point, there isn't much that can be done. Its like a printer only being able to report that the ink cart is full or empty but nothing in between. Given my experience with the increased cleanings and then a print head failure and similar error messages, I would get that buying another printhead for the other side and putting it in would fix your problems. You are certainly at the right time to have a failed printhead since you are 6 months out of warranty, and since you just replaced the first one, I'd say all directions point to needing a new printhead. It is a $420 gamble... but much better than a $1400 gamble. For that price, you are better off with just a new printer and a whole new set of ink carts. Plus, you can use up all the ink in the carts that you still have.
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My recent experience with the canon ipf6300 has been very similar. The printer worked great for a while, then lots of cleaning cycles and then the hardware error. I bought the printer in July 2010 (they got me with the pricing and some free ink). Seems like most of that ink ended up in the maintenance tank. From now on I'm sticking with the devil I know (HP Z-series).
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My iPF5000 had a print head failure just outside of warranty and the roll feed unit also went bad just outside of warranty period, but Canon diagnosed both issues over the phone, and fixed the problems (i.e., replaced the bad components) no charge. I next purchased and iPf 8100, based on loyalty to Canon for having stood behind the iPF5000. The iPF 8100 had a premature head failure, also just outside the normal warranty period. Canon also fixed at no cost to me. Flash forward... I recently bought an iPF 8300, and 5 months later, the ethernet connection went bad. The motherboard needed replacing. Canon once again stepped right up, sent out a repair technician within a week, and resolved the issue. If truth be told, the latest incident on my iPF8300 printer may have been an act of mother nature. Although it was being run with a surge protector in place, lighting struck my house, and I lost three separate systems including a severe hit to the modern heating system which has two microprocessors that control the dual boiler system in my historic home. The heating system suffered over $1000 worth of microprocessor controllers being toasted by this single lightning event. I don't know whether the lighting surge damaged the iPF8300 or whether it was simply a random and coincidental premature failure, but Canon fixed it under warranty no questions asked. The boilers in my basement were relatively new, but that repair bill was entirely on me. All in all, I take note of two things: 1), I've had more than my fair share of relatively early failures on Canon pro printers, but, 2) Canon is doing a great job compensating for this premature wear and tear on their pro printers as far as my experience goes.
All that said, my Canon iPF printers normally run day to day with few frustrations. I don't lose prints to banding or clogs. The printers take care of themselves in terms of day-to-day maintenance, and my daily productivity with my Canon printers is very high. I'm very satisfied all things considered.
cheers,
Mark
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Yes absolutely lightening will fry a main board on a printer and a Mac. I have a dead G5 to prove that. I bet lightening damages a lot more main boards than we know.
I always unplug my printers, scanners, and computers when I'm away for longer than a day. I know you have to do one head cleaning on the canon and hp but it is well worth not letting your main board get fried.
I"ve spoken to many hardware store guys that told me the same thing, that surge protectors protect against small power surges but to not protect against lightening. I don't trust the surge protectors but I buy them anyway. You do also need to replace them because a few lightening strikes and their blown too. If you have a storm unplug.
john
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Yes absolutely lightening will fry a main board on a printer and a Mac. I have a dead G5 to prove that. I bet lightening damages a lot more main boards than we know.
In a previous life I used to work in the software industry, more specifically I worked for Lexicon which is a company that makes digital effects processors (for the music industry). If you wandered down into the repair department they always had a collection of PCBs that had been fried by lightning. You could often tell which path it took by following the fried chips which would have little pock marks in the center.
I always unplug my printers, scanners, and computers when I'm away for longer than a day. I know you have to do one head cleaning on the canon and hp but it is well worth not letting your main board get fried.
That's the only way to guarantee you won't suffer damage.
I"ve spoken to many hardware store guys that told me the same thing, that surge protectors protect against small power surges but to not protect against lightening.
The slew rate (which for the non-technical folks is the amount of time it takes for a signal to go from 0 to full output) for lightning is so fast that surge protectors can't respond fast enough. By the time a surge protector trips, the damage has already been done. The proper piece of equipment is called a lightning arrestor and that gets installed on your mains line before the fuse box. That will keep you safe in most cases but even then, it's not a 100% guarantee (it certainly won't help you if the path the lightning takes is through your cable modem to your router). Unplugging is the best guarantee... not only the AC but also Ethernet as well since that's a popular path for lightning to take (through your modem, then through ethernet).
Cheers, Joe
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My recent experience with the canon ipf6300 has been very similar. The printer worked great for a while, then lots of cleaning cycles and then the hardware error. I bought the printer in July 2010 (they got me with the pricing and some free ink). Seems like most of that ink ended up in the maintenance tank. From now on I'm sticking with the devil I know (HP Z-series).
Oy... I replaced the maintenance cart last week and 20% of it has already been used. I've ordered a 2nd head, hopefully that fixes it but if not, I'll be looking at an Epson 9900. I know they aren't perfect in terms of reliability but my dealer is of the opinion that they've been more reliable than the x300 series. The spindle free transport is also quite attractive as well.
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It would appear that these reliability issues may be due to lack of use, can anyone confirm the time period and sq/ft usage during the failure period? These machines need to be used and abused if I am not mistaken. I think a low use Epson would be in the same boat unfortunately.
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It would appear that these reliability issues may be due to lack of use, can anyone confirm the time period and sq/ft usage during the failure period? These machines need to be used and abused if I am not mistaken. I think a low use Epson would be in the same boat unfortunately.
Clogging is unavoidable in pigment printers. I don't think there is anyway to predict, as results will be inconsistent based on many variables (usage, humidity, luck). Personally I think the economics of cleaning the heads occasionally with an Epson in a low use situation might be better than the cost of new heads of a Canon, especially 3880's which rarely clog even when sitting for a few weeks. My 11880 is very low usage and in 4 years has only required one maintenance cartridge which indicates it hasn't use hundreds of dollars of ink to keep clear.
So tough call. The only constant would be low usage pigment printers will cost more to keep running (wasted ink/new heads).
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It would appear that these reliability issues may be due to lack of use, can anyone confirm the time period and sq/ft usage during the failure period? These machines need to be used and abused if I am not mistaken. I think a low use Epson would be in the same boat unfortunately.
To date I've printed 1536 square feet according to the status check. I wouldn't say that counts as abused or even heavy use but it's certainly enough use that ink flows through the heads frequently. That said, it's not the heads. The nozzle check test prints were all coming out fine so I didn't think it was a head issue. After the last call with tech support before starting this thread I ran one final test print and it did indicate that the right head wasn't firing everything on one of the black channels (half of the pattern printed correctly, the other half printed with a lighter density). At that point I entertained the though that maybe there was a head problem and that that would account for the continuous cleaning. I ordered a head and replaced the right head. Test print fine... problem... still there. Okay, maybe the left head had a problem too... I ordered another head.
I've now spent $900 in heads. Unfortunately the problem is still here.
The problem started in August but very infrequently. Towards the end of September it got bad enough that I started calling tech support. Because of the deep cleanings it was running, I was a bit concerned about ink consumption so I ran some numbers.
The accounting log reports that 1348 ml of ink was used. That's about 0.88ml per square foot on average and that sounds about right. Now consider that 330 ml per cart * 12 carts = 3960 ml. That begs the question... Where the heck did 2612 ml of ink go? To put that in perspective for the US folks, that's 88.5 ounces, or a little more than 7 soda cans of ink that's just missing. >:( >:( >:( It's actually MORE than that that's missing because in that figure I'm including prints I've done within the last month and those prints done with new 700ml carts (I replaced all but one (Photo Cyan) of the 330ml carts and that one has been at "prepare to replace the ink" for a while now so it's ready to be replaced as well). Anyhow, where the heck did 2612 ml of ink go? I've mentioned I leave the machine on 24/7 so it can wake up and do a periodic maintenance cleaning to prevent the heads from clogging. From the Canon IPF Wiki, it's estimated that the x100 series uses 0.35 ml of ink per day for cleaning. Uptime on my printer is 558 days as of today. Using the x100 estimate that would account for 195.3 ml of ink used for cleaning. I'm still missing 2416.7 ml of ink. Even if we're generous and say it uses 1 ml of ink per day that's still 1858.7 ml of ink that is unaccounted for. Based on the days since installation and the amount of ink that is unaccounted for that would be 3.33ml of ink per day that the machine is wasting? I know a head change uses a bit of ink but COME ON... there isn't 7 soda cans worth of ink in the tubes. Here's another way to look at it. I'm missing $1100.77 USD worth of ink.
$900 in heads, $1100 in missing ink... Irritating. VERY Irritating. Just how much ink do those deep cleaning cycles use? It happened maybe 2 times in August and then 4 times in a row in September/early October. Based on the amount of ink missing that would be well over 100 ml of ink per cleaning. That seems pretty crazy so now I'm also wondering if this machine's auto cleanings are using A LOT more ink than the x100 series? Is it just my machine? I couldn't find any info regarding how much ink the x300 uses per day for cleaning.
Cheers, Joe
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Clogging is unavoidable in pigment printers. I don't think there is anyway to predict, as results will be inconsistent based on many variables (usage, humidity, luck). Personally I think the economics of cleaning the heads occasionally with an Epson in a low use situation might be better than the cost of new heads of a Canon, especially 3880's which rarely clog even when sitting for a few weeks. My 11880 is very low usage and in 4 years has only required one maintenance cartridge which indicates it hasn't use hundreds of dollars of ink to keep clear.
So tough call. The only constant would be low usage pigment printers will cost more to keep running (wasted ink/new heads).
In my case the printer is in its own room (which has wood floors so not a lot of dust either). There is a humidifier in the room with the humidistat set to the recommended humidity of 40% (also helps keep ESD down in the dry New England winters). The printer is left on 24/7 so it can run the auto cleanings. The only exception is lighting storms and when I have to leave for an extended period to shoot. In those cases the machine is completely unplugged (no AC, no usb, no Ethernet, it's electrically isolated). I have a drafter's brush I use to brush the dust out and the machine is regularly cleaned. As far as printers go, it has a REALLY good life! :-) Unfortunately for me this care hasn't made a lick of difference. At least I know with 100% confidence that the reason it's failing is not due to lack of care.
Cheers, Joe
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Sounds like you got a lemon. Most of us out here are simply turning it on doing the work and sleeping well at night without so much as a thought of doing a head cleaning or maintenance routine, ever. There are lemons out there in all brands. I've heard of a lot of Epson lemons that simply had to be returned because they never ever worked right, and I've also heard the same with the HP Z series, though much more rare in that case.
These days if a printer is not in warranty you are taking a big risk, if it is in warranty I would hound them till the end of the earth. It might also help to send them these postings continually that you have made on line and suggest there is more coming in a public manner if they don't take action. That helped me with the Hp flawed media situation a couple of years ago.
john
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I do realize that there is the occasional lemon out there but my experience with Canon is that that's the rule and not the exception. Let me explain...
Bought a used Canon D30 (yes, D30, their first consumer DSLR). That actually worked well.
10D - Sesnor developed an unreasonable number of dead pixels (we're talking ISO 100). Sensor replaced
20D - First one was DOA, the second one had buffer lock issues.1
1DMkII - It went to CPS for repair 4 times. For the 1st 6 months it had a SERIOUS bug, where every 2000 to 3000 shots it would stop writing to the CF card. Now if I had warning that this was happening it wouldn't have been as bad but what happened was that it continued to release the shutter after the failure had occurred and was showing the previews on the LCD making you think that it was still recording the images. So it was writing the data to the buffer (which is why you could see the preview) but it wasn't transferring data in the buffer to the CF card. Of course this always happened a critical time like the processional when the bride is walking down the aisle. Canon looked at but claimed they'd never seen that before. I know I wasn't alone because I found several other professionals who'd experienced the same thing. They'd just assumed it was user error on their part when it was not. The bug was mysteriously fixed 6 months later with no mention of it in the release notes.
5D - Was producing errors all the time. The design of the grounding and shielding design was faulty and never fixed. If you took numerous shots in a row and focused in between shots (it was even worse in continuous AF) it would cause banding. The higher you went in ISO, the worse it got but I'd had the problem show up once in a while even at lower (800 and below) ISOs. Canon claimed it only happened with older lenses that had an older servo mechanism however I experienced this issues with every lens I had. The poor shielding of this unit meant that you also couldn't mount certain Quantum batteries underneath it. I had another issues with that camera as well, can't remember what it was but it also caused me down time and forced me to rent (I always have 3 bodies with me when I shoot). Canon replaced the sensor on this camera. It was a little better but the problem was still there.
1DMkIII - Oy. Even after multiple ECOs and firmware updates, the camera could never focus on a couple walking WALKING towards me in overcast light.
70-200 2.8L IS - Image stabilizer failed and had to be replaced 4 times. By 2007 I was on my 5th IS replacement. This lens was notorious for that sparking threads that were epic in length on multiple forums. They seemed to have addressed the issue in 2007 as it was reliable after that.
24-70 2.8L - Had to return 1st copy due to some pretty egregious chromatic abberations. The replacement was decent in terms of IQ. Never had any backfocusing issues with it. It was a really good copy, my best Canon lens. Slightly after the warranty expired the zoom ring started binding (Canon to their credit did fix it for free).
100-400 f/something to something L IS- Barely EVER touched this lens (as in I think I used it twice). I had the need to use it for another gig to find out it had gone completely limp (errr... soft).
16-35 2.8L MkII - Soft on one side. I had to send it back THREE times in a row before they actually fixed it.
50mm 1.4 - The first copy I got had TERRIBLE chromatic abberations and it was extremely soft. Even at f/5.6 this lens was soft. 2nd time around I got a good copy.
85mm 1.8 - worked fine
Flash systems (550 EXes and 580EX) - SO incredibly unreliable. In ETTL they'd sometimes dump at full power, or they'd fire but would be out of sync with the shutter (and we're talking shutter speeds of 1/30th of a second here so that's a pretty big error). Sometimes it would fire off the pre-flash but never fire the flash. Canon eventually replaced a few things in 'em and they seemed to be good after that.
In the period of 1 month in 2008 I think I had to send in 5 pieces of gear. One of them (the 16-35 MkII) had to be sent in 3 times before they fixed. I think there was another piece of gear that I had to send back a second time as well. At that point I just couldn't take it anymore. I decided to switch to Nikon so I decided to go in to my local dealer to check out the Nikon stuff to see what I'd want to get. I was SO amazed at how much better it was, the optics, the body handling, the build quality of everything that I ended up walking out of the store with a D700 and a 14-24. Within a month I had a 2nd D700, D90 for backup, 70-200 2.8 VR, 24-70 2.8, 105 2.8 VR, 3 SB900's and 1 SB800. I really desperately needed that switch for my mental health. I didn't realize how stressed I was because my confidence in my gear was so low. Nikon isn't perfect by any means but the gear has been MUCH more reliable and the image quality of their lenses are just in a different category altogether. I've shot with the Nikon suff for 3 seasons now. The 14-24 had to go in once (zoom ring locked), the 70-200 went in once (it would stop focussing, you'd have to press the focus button 3 to 5 times to get the lens focused), and the D700's both had the hotshoe issue (that's the only thing I have a gripe with, that's clearly a design flaw there as so many people have this issue). So that's 3 seasons of repairs with Nikon which is less than the number of items I'd have to send in over 1 month with Canon. Also unlike Canon, Nikon actually has confidence in their products as they warranty their lenses for 5 years.
When I bought the printers, I thought I'd give Canon the benefit of the doubt. Also having been an engineer I know that different design teams are different design teams so while one design team might suck, another might be fantastic. I bought an IPF61000. After the heads were replaced the 6100 became a backup machine. I used it maybe 5 times in the course of a year. It was left on 24/7 though so it could do the maintenance cleanings to prevent clogs. Slightly out of warranty both heads failed.
In my opinion Canon has some fundamental issues with their priorities regarding quality control vs. shipping something out the door to get revenue even though it's not really "done". If you eliminate the failures that were unique to me and leave the issues that other people had as well, it paints a picture of a company that just doesn't place a high priority on quality assurance (I'm not talking about manufacturing quality control, I'm talking about QA and SQA during the alpha and beta phases of development). Everything fails eventually but with all the companies and equipment I've had over the years, none of it has been as unreliable as the Canon products I own and have owned. Would Epson be any better? I won't be able to tell until I get one. There's certainly a steady stream of head clogging issues with the Epsons but as Wayne said, leaving an Epson on 24/7 and losing a bit of $$$ to self cleanings (which is what I do anyway with my Canon printers) may end up being more cost effective over the long haul.
Cheers, Joe
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These days if a printer is not in warranty you are taking a big risk
Are you going to purchase an extended warranty for your Canon, John?
Terry.
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Are you going to purchase an extended warranty for your Canon, John?
Terry.
I kind of wonder if it's worth it since Canon's extended warranties if I'm not mistaken, are not covered. At $1250 for an extended warranty that may or may not be used and $1400 for a service call I'd have a tough time justifying that additional $150 bucks of savings for a contract that may never be used. Of course if it requires two service calls in the course of that extended warranty it would be well worth it.
Cheers, Joe
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I didn't realize that extended warranty's were that expensive.
Thanks Joe.
Terry.
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Yes I will buy the extended warranty. Unfortunately it is 1/3 more than the HP extended warranty so I'm not at all happy about that and I think it is nasty for them to charge so much but what are you gonna do? I wouldn't even dream of owning an Epson these days without coverage, that would be scary, so I've got to deal with three different extended warranties. I'm not going to work on printers anymore. I've just had it with that.
As to the quality control of Canon as a whole. All I can say is just about every one I know has a 5D Mark 2 and no one ever complains about anything around here. They are the biggest bang for the buck that I"ve ever seen. The 8300 is a similar situation in my opinion.
john
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Shewhorn, your canon experience is completely opposite to ours and that of several business contacts of ours. We have and own several Canon cameras, printers, lenses etc, and not one has given any trouble. Are you buying grey imports, on eBay or some other chanel not directly from a manufacturers agent perhaps?
Indeed, after over 60+ years in the photo business I've never come across a single brand disaster story like yours. You troubles seem so far off our experience that I'm having difficulty with it.
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Shewhorn, your canon experience is completely opposite to ours and that of several business contacts of ours. We have and own several Canon cameras, printers, lenses etc, and not one has given any trouble. Are you buying grey imports, on eBay or some other chanel not directly from a manufacturers agent perhaps?
Indeed, after over 60+ years in the photo business I've never come across a single brand disaster story like yours. You troubles seem so far off our experience that I'm having difficulty with it.
Joe has posted this litany of "problems" on other forums too. Seems a certain hard-on toward Canon is directing all this.
Also, there was no mention of him contacting Canon re: the heads in the first place. Canon warranties the heads for a certain amount of ink. They will replace those heads for free if that usage has not been met. I know this for a fact because I have done it, not because I am passing on "Internet Expertise". The head warranty is separate from the printer warranty and starts with the purchase of every head, or the purchase of the printer if you have never replaced the heads.
Call Canon support, they will ask you for the head codes and if the heads have not used the warrantied amount of ink, they send you another one overnight and you send the bad head back to them with the pre-paid mailer they enclose.
We run three ipf printers here every day. I have four Canon 5D cameras (the Mk I versions), the Canon Holy Trinity of L zooms plus an extra 24-70 2.8L, assorted other glass including the fish, the cheapo 50, cheapo 80, the outrageously overpriced 50mm 1.2 (which is not really all that great by the way) and six 580 Flashes... and I have NEVER had one percent of the problems with that gear as related in his post.
Very strange stuff here.
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Joe has posted this litany of "problems" on other forums too. Seems a certain hard-on toward Canon is directing all this.
Tom,
If I hadn't had considerable problems with them I wouldn't be saying anything. As for other forums, I've posted this list of disaster after disaster on only one other private forum (at least I can't remember posting it anywhere else) which is not visible to non-paying members. Your implication that I've been going around and posting this list to multiple forums is exaggerated. I did mention on the ipf wiki that I've had issues with their reliability, but I didn't post this list. This is the first time (at least that I can remember) that I've posted it to a public forum.
As for a "hard on" toward Canon, if I were making stuff up then perhaps you'd have a point, but these are facts. If I had a "hard-on" (which makes absolutely no sense at all... in this scenario Canon has made me completely limp :D ) for Canon as you claim I wouldn't have started a thread on another forum praising them for NOT playing the megapixel game with their latest camera. A bold move in a world of measurebators and people who buy based on specs. They seem to have listened to the professionals this time around and that is quite encouraging.
Also, there was no mention of him contacting Canon re: the heads in the first place. Canon warranties the heads for a certain amount of ink. They will replace those heads for free if that usage has not been met. I know this for a fact because I have done it, not because I am passing on "Internet Expertise".
You are partially correct on the ink limit however you didn't get all of the facts right. They warranty the heads for 4000 ml, or 1 year, whichever comes first. If it was 4000 ml then they would have replaced my heads (which still wouldn't have fixed the problem unfortunately). If you have used 0 ml of ink, and 1 year from the purchase date elapses, they will not replace the heads. The tech I spoke with actually had incorrect information on their warranty claiming it was just 1 year and that they weren't warrantied for any specific quantity. Perhaps they've changed the policy, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense to do so from their standpoint.
The head warranty is separate from the printer warranty and starts with the purchase of every head, or the purchase of the printer if you have never replaced the heads.
Call Canon support, they will ask you for the head codes and if the heads have not used the warrantied amount of ink, they send you another one overnight and you send the bad head back to them with the pre-paid mailer they enclose.
Again, some of your information is incorrect regarding their head warranty. Of course I called them, they got the lot number on the heads, blah blah blah. The tech support folks were excellent as usual but they couldn't help. The issue was escalated to customer relations and they were polite but useless, and just not really interested in helping at all as made obvious by their claim that the machine's warranty started on the date I pre-ordered the machine which was before a single IPF8300 had been shipped to the retail channel. This is a little bit of a tangent to the subject at hand but I find that enforcing a warranty based on a purchase date that preceeded the shipping of the machine to be a little ridiculous.
Very strange stuff here.
Perhaps the number of failures I've had are a little outside the bell curve but they are not by any means, strange. Issues with focusing, soft lenses, and the IS failing are common (although it's were instead of are in the case of the IS, that seems to have been taken care of, the number of reports of this dropped dramatically around 2007 and I can't remember seeing anyone post about this in the past 2 years) and well documented. If they didn't have problems then we wouldn't have seen as many people switch over to Nikon as soon as Nikon came out with a viable full frame option.
Cheers, Joe
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Are you buying grey imports, on eBay or some other chanel not directly from a manufacturers agent perhaps?
Most of my Canon camera gear was purchased through a local (at the time) store, Bear Images Photographic in Palo Alto, CA (awesome service BTW). A few pieces came from Keeble and Schuchat (another formerly local store in Palo Alto), and a few pieces were from reputable dealers (B&H, Canoga Camera, and a really popular store in Pennsylvania, the name of which I can't recall at the moment). All of my gear (with the exception of the D30 which I bought used in 2002, and which worked great) was new, with US warranties.
Cheers, Joe
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Back to the printer... I bought two new heads and replaced them which rules out the heads as the problem. I got a hold of the repair manual. Since the heads aren't the issue, this leaves (according to the manual based upon the error code) two possibilities, a malfunctioning head management sensor (which detects whether or not ink is firing from the nozzles) or a malfunctioning motherboard. I've never ever seen a motherboard fail in such a consistent and calculated manner. I've seen some crazy things before so I won't say it's impossible but, a malfunctioning head management sensor would certainly be consistent with the symptoms I'm seeing.
When speaking to support the week prior, after receiving a quote of $1400 to fix it (as mentioned before, Canon charges a flat rate, so it's $1400 for a $50 part or $1400 for $900 worth of heads, a $1k motherboard, and other assorted parts exceeding $1400 so it can go either way but I suspect most repairs won't even come close to being worth $1400) the tech mentioned "it could be anything from a $50 sensor to a $1000 motherboard". While it's not a guarantee that the head management sensor is the issue, that would appear to be the case so... $50 part = $1400 to fix. I tried to purchase the part and after getting bounced around I was told that they only sell parts to service contractors.
Out of curiosity I called Epson and asked them how they provide service after the warranty expires. They contract the work out to Precision One. It's $100 to go out to a location, and $175 per hour of work so basically a service call is a minimum of $275 + parts. When Canon sends out a contractor (in this area it's Pitney Bowes) they have to come out twice, once to diagnose, and then the following day to install parts. I asked how Precision One handled things. Epson said that they stock parts in the truck when they go on a service run and in addition, Epson gives them a list of potential parts that they think might be involved in the problem so in most cases, one visit should take care of the problem. In the past when I've had Canon come out for warranty service they were usually there for an hour but never more than 2.
Replacing the head management sensor looks fairly straight forward. With the speed that an experienced tech can get the skin off of the machine I'm pretty certain that this would be less than an hour so if this machine were an Epson, the cost to repair this would be $325 to $500.
Now, I attempted to buy the head management sensor from Canon but they won't sell it to me. I asked Epson about purchasing parts. They're not really any different there, they said the only part that the end user can purchase is the heads. Other parts would have to be purchased through a 3rd party.
Extended warranties - Epson charges $725 for an additional year (2 years total), or $1286.50 for 2 years (3 years total). Canon's extended warranties are $1225 (looks like it came down by $25 since I last checked), and $2350 respectively.
I wouldn't be quite so infuriated if Canon's repair costs weren't so unreasonable (at least in my view, am I alone in thinking that $1400 for a $50 part which would probably take less than an hour to swap out is a bit unreasonable). The fact that the machine is still so new, doesn't have a lot of heavy use, and the failure in question has cost me at least $1100 in ink only makes it that much more frustrating.
Lesson learned in terms of researching the cost of repairs. I won't say I'll never buy a Canon again but when considering the costs of repairs, consumables (ink on both of them and heads on the Canon), extended warranties, etc. the cost of ownership for Epson's printers appears to be lower over time.
For the time being, I'm waiting for a phone call. If it goes well, Canon will be doing the repair. If not I'll see if I can get the part through a 3rd party and I'll replace it myself.
Cheers, Joe
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Found a source to order parts from. If anyone else runs into this issue and is competent with mechanical devices as well as working with computer assembly... the Head Management Sensor is a whopping $34 bucks and I found a source to buy it from (Canon will not sell it to you).
Cheers, Joe
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Found a source to order parts from. If anyone else runs into this issue and is competent with mechanical devices as well as working with computer assembly... the Head Management Sensor is a whopping $34 bucks and I found a source to buy it from (Canon will not sell it to you).
Cheers, Joe
Joe, would you mind sending me a PM with your parts source and where you were able to find the manual? I am getting a 2F42 error on my 8300. I have logged a ticket with Canon, so I should be fine on this one, but I would feel better having the manual and parts source for down the road (just in case).
Thanks.
Terry.
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Here's the link for the manual:
http://www.service-manual.net/ashop/search.php?searchstring=ipf8300&showresult=true&exp=0&resultpage=&categories=&msg=&search=search.php&shop=1
Will send you a PM with the parts source.
Cheers, Joe
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Thanks Joe, for everything.
Terry.
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Just to counter some of the other experience here - after advocating what a fantastic printer my IPF6100 has been for three years, I had my first problem this week. The printer started banding and dumping globs of purple ink though it did a clear nozzle check. Panic, because we are at our busiest time. I called Condor who are a local Canon dealer and service centre in Southampton (UK). The service engineer called today (24 hours after my first contact) for a quoted call out charge of £88 for the first half an hour and £22 per 15 minutes after. He quickly stripped the covers, found the purge unit was a bit contaminated and cleaned it. This had allowed the heads to become fouled with ink and had been causing the trouble. He removed the heads without needing to empty the system and so avoiding wasting any ink. The printer then gave a completely clear nozzle check and now seems to be working flawlessly. It may be the purge unit will need to be replaced if the problem recurs. The engineer was probably here for 45 minutes. My faith in the printer is restored! And I have discovers a great local company in Condor. The printer gets quite a bit of use and at the latest count I have used over 90 cartridges (130ml).
Regarding other Canon products. I have completely the opposite experience to Joe. We have used Canon DSLR's for ten years now - D30, 10D, 1Ds, 1Ds mk3, 5D, and 5D mk2 and a whole load of Canon lenses, many of them L series. Not one of the bodies has ever had a single fault and we shoot 40-50,000 pictures a year. They are all still in regular use except the D30 and 10D. The L lenses have performed very well with two being repaired due to being dropped. Two of the cheaper lenses, 50mm 1.4 and 28mm 1.8 have both had problems and seem poorly built. Because I have had so few problem I have little experience of Canon service, so am not really qualified to comment. The bottom line for me is that I have mad most of my living for ten years using Canon products and they have performed almost flawlessly. If I need to replace the 6100 it will probably be with a 6300.
Jim
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Joe, would you mind sending me a PM with your parts source and where you were able to find the manual? I am getting a 2F42 error on my 8300. I have logged a ticket with Canon, so I should be fine on this one, but I would feel better having the manual and parts source for down the road (just in case).
Thanks.
Terry.
Terry - by any chance, did you figure out what does that freaking 2F42 code mean? One channel in PBK stopped printing in my 6350, cleaning doesn't help, it ends up with 2F42 error and I'm getting out of my mind...
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It seems most owners are reasonably happy with their IPF 6300/8300 printers and with the current rebates and trade-in deals I'm thinking of replacing my DesignJet 130 with an IPF 6300. I can get it for about a grand less than a HP Z series, which I also have been considering. The DJ130 still works fine, but the dye inks severely limit your media choices.
I downloaded the 6300 users manual and it is comprehensive in the extreme. I'm a hobbyist photographer and make very few prints compared to many users. From a cost prespective, I'd probably be better off sending my images out to be printed. However, it seems like every print I make needs some tweaking to make it look like I want it to, so I like to keep everything in house.
Being a very low volume printer, I'm interested in any tips to avoid head clogs. Is just leaving the printer on all the time enough or should I try to come up with some simple AppleScript program to make the printer print a few lines of each color a couple of times a week?
I've used Canon camera gear regularily for the last 25 years and have never had a camera or lens require repair.
Any tips for a new user would be appreciated.
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Terry - by any chance, did you figure out what does that freaking 2F42 code mean? One channel in PBK stopped printing in my 6350, cleaning doesn't help, it ends up with 2F42 error and I'm getting out of my mind...
I've had 2F50, 2F42, 2F43 and 2F44 errors. Both heads have been replaced, the 2nd one a few days ago, and I'm still getting 2F44 and 2F43 errors. I will be calling Canon tomorrow and I suspect someone will be coming out with circuit boards.
I lost my gloss black channel somewhere in the middle of all this, and unfortunately I'm not sure which error(s) were coming up in and around that time. I did all the required cleanings and the problem persisted. The first replacement head I received addressed the lost channel. Perhaps your head is gone, and the 2F42 error relates to that. I'm sorry, but I don't know exactly what that code means.
Terry.
Terry.
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Lemon IPF8300....I had five service calls in the first month of ownership; it did not function when it was installed and was unreliable after that. I did not buy the extended warranty opting to take their second set of ink instead, thinking as a low volume printer I could get buy once the thing was fixed (an anomaly, not typical). It is the second year, and the thing is throwing head error codes. I am thoroughly disgusted with this printer and won't buy another Canon large format. When it worked it was beautiful. It wound up with problems with the ethernet (would only print half a page), the software is crappy on a Mac...just an overall bad experience.
Now I can't get rid of the thing. It is too heavy to move. What a waste. I would like to know if anyone has had any luck with Canon on their lemon large format printers getting them to fix it. I have only had one set of ink run through, and most of that is with the ridiculous cleaning cycles squirting money away.
I shoot Canon, and have been happy with their cameras. But a $4k printer that costs $100 a month for a warranty alone seems like I paid way too much.
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Found a source to order parts from. If anyone else runs into this issue and is competent with mechanical devices as well as working with computer assembly... the Head Management Sensor is a whopping $34 bucks and I found a source to buy it from (Canon will not sell it to you).
Cheers, Joe
Hi to all, I am having the same problems with my ipf8300 as many of the other members had posted, and was wondering if any of you that new, would be able to share the source of parts that Joe had mentioned in his quote. If so a PM would be appreciated!
R. Schultz
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Interesting to read about the problems with the IPF 8300 printers.. I always thought they worked without any problems and did not spill so much ink on cleaning...
I am on a HP z3100 and have it for 6 years now- did some little repair on it mself ( also HP charges a lot of money) and soon have to replace the transporterbelt..that starts flaking rubber..
But must say it did not spill any ink on cleaning and the heads are always clean... I had one head replaced in 6 years ( I am not a big printer).
It was a gamble when i bought it (first league) but it turned out a good one- very reliable and uniform colours from day one.
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Hi Mike
Not done this before but here is a link to my previous post.
Re: outstanding Canon support
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 03:41:16 AM »
If you are like me and print very little try using a roll of proofing paper, or that roll of rubbish you tried but don't use to print out a nozzle check directly from the printer menu. I do this every 4 or so days to cycle the nozzles.
I have been very happy with this printer as a first LFP.
The printer calibration works well and for profiles use the free services that suppliers provide when you but the media, well here in the UK anyway.
I am a long term Canon user of cameras and lenses.
The only fault I have to report is L or not lenses sometimes don't auto focus unless the focus is moved manually first. It only happens on lenses that I have not used for a while. Once in action they perform as per normal, so motor replacement as advised CPS not really an option on the two lenses, 300 F4 L IS/100 macro 2.8 that slap me for not using them enough.
Regards
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The link didn't work so heres a copy.
Ha here in good old blighty where we pay through every orifice (almost a £ per yer $) THERE are no offers to buy new at rates that make me look at the costs of keeping my 3.5 year old iPF6100 running.
Consider yourselves lucky to have the options in your throw away culture. Well, that almost made me feel better.
So all of a sudden my uber reliable iPF went rogue on me with a hardware error, L printhead. Filled the maintenance tank and reduced ink levels by 20% trying to clean my way out of this problem. So details, it's 3.5 years old, no maintenance contract (too expensive) has only needed ink and paper so far. I print just for myself, photo artist.
Ink head about £350 & M cart £50. Also needed to get two ink carts as now down to 20% which may not be enough for the re prime. About £140.00.
There are slightly cheaper sources but I like to deal with a local supplier plus there have been duff products and fakes in the supply chain when sourced from outside the EU by some UK suppliers, apparently.
So we had a chat and I supplied an email to be forwarded to Canon UK large format. I will not take up your time with my arguments but these printers do run a maintenance schedual when not in use, so I leave it switched on 24/7 and it has yet to use 3 full ink replacement sets.
Low use over a long time.
I now have an accurate temp and hygrometer and run test prints on proofing paper to keep the heads eerrr fresh.
I have no option for de humidifier in the room I use, no door. We had a lot of rain early summer in the UK.
I waited some weeks and almost gave up when I got a call from my local guy who told me a new head was on it's way. Yippee.
Installed OK, used about 15% or more ink and took the new M cart to 80% available. Auto head aligment on my favourite paper and of couse a colour recalibrate.
I would add to the notion of pigment drying out and blocking, these heads sit on shelves with ink in them to stop them drying out. Yes there are seals in place but I think the problem is pigment settle in the lines suppling the head. The carts are rattled quite well by the printer and slop ink about inside.
Oh well I am happy that Canon saw fit to see my arguments and responded with a genuine good will gesture to a customer and that my faith in a local supplier is sound.
One day when I am rich enough I will have that 60 inch fine art printer ( need a bigger house)and it will be a Canon.............
Regards.
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Started getting the 2F44 error myself about a month ago with my 6300. Printer is a little less than two years old and hasn't had a full set of replacement ink carts used.
Canon tech support says it's almost certainly a problem with the print heads because of infrequent use. I know a guy who works for a copier/printer service company and he agrees. Canon tech support says I need to run at least a nozzle check at least once a week.
Anyone come up with anything else on this issue?
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I have watched a video on YouTube where a clogged print head is placed in an ultrasonic machine with cleaning solution and this clears the clog. Has anyone tried this?
Mike
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Infrequent use will shorten head life - an acknowledged fact on the Canon Wiki. The heads have a large quantity of spare nozzles which are mapped into use when others clog. The best anti clog protocol is a print twice a week. Persistant attempts to force cleanings and trying to make heads clean by pushing supply, will end up shorting-out the mother board due to raised current during these processes. Just put in a new head when things seeem to be blocking ink flow and, overall, the printer will last longer.
Genuine pf03 heads can be had from China at $350 plus delivery.
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got a link for that Chinese source?
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I have watched a video on YouTube where a clogged print head is placed in an ultrasonic machine with cleaning solution and this clears the clog. Has anyone tried this?
Mike
I successfully cleaned my old i9900 head under running tap water. I have access to a ultrasonic machine but I'm not sure I want to try that with a 6300 head. For one thing the head needs to dry very completely before reusing it, and it might be bad to leave the printer without a head in it for that long.
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Link to pf03:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/947444545/Original_And_100_Brand_Canon_PF.html
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Link to pf03:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/947444545/Original_And_100_Brand_Canon_PF.html
Thanks for that info!
Anyone have that info on where to purchase the Head Management Sensor?
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I bought my replacement print head through EBay for $350 as well. Genuine also. I thought by not printing as much I would save my parts live's. Boy was I wrong. 2 print heads later I learned my lesson.
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I bought my replacement print head through EBay for $350 as well. Genuine also. I thought by not printing as much I would save my parts live's. Boy was I wrong. 2 print heads later I learned my lesson.
Ditto. I knew the heads were expensive when I purchased the printer, but I didn't think I would go through many heads because I wouldn't print frequently. I didn't know I would I would go through heads because I don't print frequently.
Thanks to everyone for the info.
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I am getting a ghosting (light gray) to the left of all of my Black printing on numerous stocks. I completed a print head alignment. This is right after replacing both right (two months ago) and left (two weeks ago) print head.
Any ideas??
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Did you complete advanced head alignment without error notice? Take a closer look at nozzle check and make sure there's no doubled vertical lines in any pattern.
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You are right - there is some double image with the Right print head - black and grey - Now what???
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it's dead. Try to replace it under warranty
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My most recent 8300 heads now have 6500 and 8000 square feet on them, still going strong. Used 300+ days a year. I wonder if recent heads have improved in some way? Both my current heads are warranty replacements with "R" prefixes. Does that mean "Refurbished" or "Repaired." Anybody know?
Other than an infrequent 1/2 hour spent on head replacements, the old 8300 has been a steadfast workhorse in a dusty, low humidity location in temperatures swinging between 60F and 80F. I load rolls and print, end of story. Don't even bother with nozzle checks, except for profiling. The 9880 was not like that.
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Anyone ever heard of cleaning the iPF print heads? It's a pretty common practice on inexpensive printers, but they're dye based ink.
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Question is if it's clogged or dead. If there are unregular clogs on nozzle check you can unclogged it - if half or whole channel is missing, it's gone for good.
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Question is if it's clogged or dead. If there are unregular clogs on nozzle check you can unclogged it - if half or whole channel is missing, it's gone for good.
If I go for more than a week without printing, mine goes though the long repeated cleaning process and fails with the 2F44 error. But it prints fine after I power it down and back on. I've been leaving it on and letting it go into sleep mode since this problem started.
The head cleaning I was referring to is the one where the nozzle portion of the head is soaked in water and/or solvent. It seems to be a common practice on smaller dye based printers. I've done it with my i9900 print head.
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I have an HP z 3100 for years now . I have gone through two print heads for under 150 un all the years I have owned it. Guess no matter how flakey HP is will stick with them
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Kat, my Canon 8300 was doing the exact same thing. I would just power cycle and everything printed fine. Until a Friday night when I needed prints for Sunday. 2 emergency canvas orders that I said I could do at the last minute to end up with my head dying and no longer printing after a power cycle. Lesson learned. See if you can get it replaced under warranty. If not, get some money together and order a replacement that you can have on hand because it WILL die on you at the worst possible time.
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Kat, my Canon 8300 was doing the exact same thing. I would just power cycle and everything printed fine. Until a Friday night when I needed prints for Sunday. 2 emergency canvas orders that I said I could do at the last minute to end up with my head dying and no longer printing after a power cycle. Lesson learned. See if you can get it replaced under warranty. If not, get some money together and order a replacement that you can have on hand because it WILL die on you at the worst possible time.
I've been thinking about doing that, so I better go ahead and do it now that you mention it. Did you get the Chinese market print head?
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Kat, I went on eBay and found what looked like a genuine one. Same box. All HP info on it for about $350 shipped.