Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ippolitois on September 16, 2011, 10:34:29 pm
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I have the opportunity to get a used Canon ipf6100 for a good deal. I think it might be overkill for what I currently use my printer for. I normally print 8x10's to 16x20's. Haven't had the need for anything larger. Can the 6100 handle cut sheets for these sizes, especially 8.5x11 for 8x10 prints? Will I experience the nauseating clogging and endless head cleaning I've experienced with my Epson?
Any help or further insights with this printer would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
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It should handle those sizes just fine. And no clogging issues. Canons don't clog. Epsons do :D
Neil
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I'm very happy to be corrected but, my understanding with the Canon is that it starts out with a head that has more openings than are needed. As time passes, some clog, or misfire for various reasons. The clever part is that by using re-mapping routines, the heads use a redundancy scheme whereby other nozzles are gradually pressed into action, covering for the inactive ones.
After a long time the machine runs out of new nozzles to use as more and more cease to function. At that point the printer asks for a new head. The whole thing is that there's no miracle cure for clogging, just clever ways round it that require no extensive maintenance by the user. All the re-mapping happens without you even noticing.
The one down side is the price of a new head at $500+. One head covers six colors, so that's $83 per color. Design Jets are about $30 a color so that's not so good in Canon's case.
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My Canon IPF 6100 Left Print Head clogged after 2 years of what I would call little to medium usage. Right Print Head also showed clogging in the Test Print Pattern about 2 months ago. I didn't get a message to replace it though (as I did with the left one). Then I went on holidays for 4 weeks and afterwards everything was alright again. I don't trust it though and have a spare one ready.
Martin
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I have the opportunity to get a used Canon ipf6100 for a good deal. I think it might be overkill for what I currently use my printer for. I normally print 8x10's to 16x20's. Haven't had the need for anything larger. Can the 6100 handle cut sheets for these sizes, especially 8.5x11 for 8x10 prints? Will I experience the nauseating clogging and endless head cleaning I've experienced with my Epson?
Any help or further insights with this printer would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
Well, if it's used you may be taking a pretty big chance, because depending on how much it has been used, and if it's been sitting idle, you may have to replace either or both print heads shortly, because the head will have a substantial number of the spare nozzles permanently clogged. So I would walk away and look at a new one unless the price is cheap enough you can justify the hundreds of dollars to replace the heads.
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Well, if it's used you may be taking a pretty big chance, because depending on how much it has been used, and if it's been sitting idle, you may have to replace either or both print heads shortly, because the head will have a substantial number of the spare nozzles permanently clogged. So I would walk away and look at a new one unless the price is cheap enough you can justify the hundreds of dollars to replace the heads.
Absolutely. Unless heads are confirmed new and nozzle test OK, without error messsages, the worth of the printer is pretty much the discounted value of the remaining ink. A pair of new PF-03 heads runs $1100-1200, and replacing the heads consumes about $150-200 in ink.
Pete
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and replacing the heads consumes about $150-200 in ink.
Pete
Is it really that much in ink that gets lost?
The replacement of a Z3100 Designjet head does not take that much ink and I wonder why it should be like 250 ML of inks for a Canon iPF model.
The other message that mentions a Designjet head price at $30.- probably is about another head than a Z3100 head. Twice that price is more likely.
I wonder what the price of a used iPF5100 should be, the price new here is about 1700 Euro, two headswill be around 800-900 Euro. There is not that much ink in a new iPF5100. It is more a lottery ticket than anything else if you lay down 500 Euro for a used one.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Is it really that much in ink that gets lost?
The replacement of a Z3100 Designjet head does not take that much ink and I wonder why it should be like 250 ML of inks for a Canon iPF model.
The other message that mentions a Designjet head price at $30.- probably is about another head than a Z3100 head. Twice that price is more likely.
I wonder what the price of a used iPF5100 should be, the price new here is about 1700 Euro, two headswill be around 800-900 Euro. There is not that much ink in a new iPF5100. It is more a lottery ticket than anything else if you lay down 500 Euro for a used one.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
When I replaced two heads on my iPF5000 under warranty five years ago, the process involved first purging the heads and lines with a considerable amount of ink dumped, replacing the heads, then re-filling and cleaning. With a new unit, just installing the heads takes about 20ml X 12 colors, leaving about 70ml in each starter cart.
My current heads are showing problems not yet evident on prints, but the end will come soon, after five years of regular use. So I'm taking advantage of a current factory $250 rebate to order a new 5100 from Color HQ for a final cost of $1450 after rebate. The retail cost of the heads is at least $1000, and the value of the 90ml starter carts about $600. I'll be able to use all my current inks as I had converted to the improved 5100 inks in '06.
As an aside, the only nozzle cleanings I have run in five years were the two I did after the first head/nozzle error messages appeared last month. Way back, with the early head failures, a tech at Canon told me that if the nozzle defects didn't clear after two standard cleanings, more, including the deep cleaning cycle which I had run a couple of times, were just a waste of ink. Support was impeccable, requiring only a single call, and a new head delivered overnight in each case.
Pete
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I have not made up my mind yet on the deal, but this how I'm thinking now. I can have trouble free printing until the head dies and then spend $1000 and replace the head and have another 2-3 years of clog free printing. Or, I can continue with this Epson and drain $1000 of ink in the waste tank, loose countless hours of downtime and have less hair. When this printer is bang on, it's terrific, but the clogging is too much to bear. The costs for the ink for either the Canon or Epson are equal, except it appears that most of the Canon ink is applied to paper and the Epson ink into my waste tank.
As for image quality, I, or my customers will ever notice the minute detail difference that may or may not exist between these printers. For the purest, I guess it does matter, but for me it's not a concern for me. I just want to flip the switch and start printing. BTW, I'm on my third day of trying to unclog this beast.
Thanks again.
Paul
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Paul, I just checked the PF-03 printhead prices, and the lowest was $490 @ 17th St Photo, so the price has come down from the previous $550-650 (which continues with many sellers). Two are required, six colors each, and they can be replaced individually.
The one advantage the 5000/5100 has over the 6100 is that it has a paper cassette that holds 8.5x11, 13x19, or 17x22. I have a second cassette and keep the smaller two sizes loaded, the roll for larger. Although it states the cassette won't handle heavier art-type papers, 315gsm Innova cotton matte loads fine in my 5000.
Good luck, Pete
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Hi Pete,
Thanks for the info. To be sure, hte 6100 doesn't have a cassette for cut sheets? I thought it did. This might change things then as I primarily use cut sheet paper when I print. It's not to say that I can't adjust to rolls but that's not what I was hoping for. As for the print heads and other consumables, they are all the same price in the end. It just appears that the Canon have a lot less headaches thhan the Epsons.
Thanks in advance.
Paul
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Hi Pete,
Thanks for the info. To be sure, hte 6100 doesn't have a cassette for cut sheets? I thought it did. This might change things then as I primarily use cut sheet paper when I print. It's not to say that I can't adjust to rolls but that's not what I was hoping for. As for the print heads and other consumables, they are all the same price in the end. It just appears that the Canon have a lot less headaches thhan the Epsons.
Thanks in advance.
Paul
Nope, no cassette in the 6100 and larger iPF's. If it did I'd have ordered it instead of the 5100. I mentioned that because your original post suggested your needs are much like mine. Also the 5100 allows 3mm borders all around for single sheets of standard or custom lengths fed through the top for most media types. I believe that in the 6100 and larger there's an approx. 7/8" minimum margin on the trailing edge for cut sheets, but I could be wrong here.
The printers do self-maintenance with periodic cleaning cycles that seem to use little ink. You can say goodby to nozzle checks before printing and clog-cleaning in the Canon iPF's - mine went five years of pretty regular usage before head/nozzle error messages. Canon technology is different than Epson's, using thermal heads, and when nozzles fail it's generally due to irreversible nozzle electrical burnout, not an ink "clog". That's my simplistic understanding, at least.
Pete
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I have not made up my mind yet on the deal, but this how I'm thinking now. I can have trouble free printing until the head dies and then spend $1000 and replace the head and have another 2-3 years of clog free printing.
Sounds logical, but if the printer has been sitting, or if the printer is old and is heavily used that very well could only be a few weeks. You might get lucky, but this is a pretty old printer, most likely with most of the spare nozzles clogged.
I'll add one other thing. Although the 6100 is a decent printer, the 6300 has very improved blacks and screening - much better output and your blacks won't turn milky on some papers after a year or so. For that reason is worth considering ... a much better investment.
good luck with whatever you decide.
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...."your blacks won't turn milky on some papers ..." Hmmm! Haven't come across this problem being mentioned before. Any chance of a bit more detail? Thanks.
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Sounds logical, but if the printer has been sitting, or if the printer is old and is heavily used that very well could only be a few weeks. You might get lucky, but this is a pretty old printer, most likely with most of the spare nozzles clogged.
I'll add one other thing. Although the 6100 is a decent printer, the 6300 has very improved blacks and screening - much better output and your blacks won't turn milky on some papers after a year or so. For that reason is worth considering ... a much better investment.
good luck with whatever you decide.
It is very difficult to estimate what quality is left in a secondhand printer. The iPF5100 is sold since mid 2007 and is still in the catalog. On the other hand the Canons and even more the HPs allow the exchange of heads by the user. With HPs that is quite cheap but they have no up to date 17" sheet model. It is a pity that there is no iPF5300 yet. For speed and roll printing both the 6300 and 8300 are the machines to get but an up to date Canon sheet printer 17" wide would be nice. The use of 8300 inks in iPF5100 heads is not possible Canon says due to more polymer in the 8300 ink. The 17" market must be small in a sense and filled in from the bottom by the 3800, 3880. Epson reduced the price of the 4900 even here in Europe, HP did not make a new model after the Designjet 90 and an iPF5100 replacement is not yet announced.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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What I really need is a sheet feeding printer. I thought that the 6100 had a cassette until Pete Berry enlightened me that their is no sheet feeder for the 6100 and sadly he was right. My ideal print is the 5100 and I guess I'm going to have to either wait for a 5300 or look for a 5100. The seller is in no hurry to let the package go, but you never know. I've lost other opportunities when no one is in a hurry. I'm hoping that Canon will issue a round of rebates for the 5100 and I'll jump on it.
Even though my 4000 has new heads, I can't seem to unclog two single stops in the pattern. I'm going to try the dreaded super sonic head cleaning routine to see it is can dislodge the two spots.
Thanks for all the help.
Paul
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What I really need is a sheet feeding printer. I thought that the 6100 had a cassette until Pete Berry enlightened me that their is no sheet feeder for the 6100 and sadly he was right. My ideal print is the 5100 and I guess I'm going to have to either wait for a 5300 or look for a 5100. The seller is in no hurry to let the package go, but you never know. I've lost other opportunities when no one is in a hurry. I'm hoping that Canon will issue a round of rebates for the 5100 and I'll jump on it.
Even though my 4000 has new heads, I can't seem to unclog two single stops in the pattern. I'm going to try the dreaded super sonic head cleaning routine to see it is can dislodge the two spots.
Thanks for all the help.
Paul
Paul, Canon is currrently offering a $250 mail-in rebate on the 5100. With the discounted price of $1700 at Color HQ and IT Supplies you've got a new, warranteed printer for $1450 with full pro features including mar-free vacuum hold-down rather than "pizza wheels" and full-time blacks - which in five years with 5100 inks on a variety of matte and photo papers I've seen no degredation.
Pete
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Hi Pete,
I know about the printer rebates and the price of a new one, but unfortunately, it's only available in the US and I'm in Canada. Currently, there are no rebate offers for the 5100 in Canada yet. I'm keeping my eye on it in case they do offer the same price.
Thanks for the heads up.
Paul
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I have some prints on various papers that after displaying for a year or two the blacks have a "milky" look. Definitely not the look when they were printed. It's almost like the blacks have lost some of the "gloss". I don't recall what paper was used (maybe was Kodak Professional maybe Epson Luster). I don't think it's a general problem with the printer/ink, more due to the combination so some papers are probably fine (I've never used Canon papers). After talking to David Sparer at Canon when the 6300 was introduced about the changes, they aren't insignificant and definitely yield higher quality output, one of them was to address issues with GD and the black inks. The 6300 output is terrific.
If I wanted a sheet feed printer right now, there is no way I'd buy a 5100 over an Epson 3880 ... the one printer that Epson has made that rarely (if ever) clogs. If you need roll paper to me the 5100 wouldn't be very tempting, i'd either figure out a way to make the 6300 work, opt for a 4890/4900 (my 4900 has had one clog in 3 months, detected by auto nozzle check and cleaned without ruining any paper), or wait until Canon gets around to making a 5300. I'm not surprised an Epson 4000 is having major problem with nozzle clogs, such an ancient printer which has long outlived it's expected life without, to compare that to current Epson's isn't too accurate.
But after saying all that, I'll admit I am extremely critical of what comes out of a printer, and have to admit the 5100 will produce very nice prints.
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Hi Wayne,
Thanks for your comments. As for the 4000 being ancient, I'm not as critical as most are. I'm satisfied with the output using Imageprint. My customers would be hard pressed to see any difference between HDR inks and anything else. My major beef with these Epson printers is reliability. I'm on my third one now and the constant has always been clogging and clogging at the most unfortunate times when I have to deliver something.
I have followed the progress of the Epson printers for a long time, and from reading the comments here and elsewhere, it appears that the new Epson's are still plagued with the same problems as my 1990's 660. In the end, I would gladly sacrifice a little gamut or a feature or two for reliability. It's quite apparent that most, if not every Canon user here, doesn't have the same problems as Epson users in terms of machine reliability. Back when I was a kid, when you bought a car, it was expected that you would take it back several times to get a few things fixed. If that occurs today, the car is doomed from the outset. With the Internet, product success is determined within nanoseconds. I believe that Epson is still in the business of selling ink and what better way of doing so by not addressing a major engineering a flaw in it's design that is 20 years old. History has proven this theory with respect to the Epson approach. Some times, companies are staunch in there believes and never move forward to counter negative comments believing that their customers will always be there. Look at Kodak for the most recent example of this thinking.
I looked at the 3880 but was advised by Epson against it because it wasn't robust enough for my needs. I was considering the 4900 but after reading all the negative comments and the usual issues, I passed on it. I agree with you about the 5300. I might just toil with this beast until Canon releases the updated version of the 5100. I'm curious to see what it feels like to be clog free. Turn it on, and print. Must be a nice feeling and something I look forward to. Although, your final comments about the 5100 leave me thinking again.
Is the the quality of the x300 series that much better than the x100 series? Is it worth the wait?
Thanks in advance.
Paul
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Is the the quality of the x300 series that much better than the x100 series? Is it worth the wait?
I think it's worth it. And it won't be long, I suppose.
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I have followed the progress of the Epson printers for a long time, and from reading the comments here and elsewhere, it appears that the new Epson's are still plagued with the same problems as my 1990's 660.
Determining that fact from the posts on this forum probably isn't providing you with a very accurate picture. I sell and service Epson printers, (I can sell Canon as well, but in 2 years I've never had anyone come in and ask me about them), and have experience with a large number of users of which none have ever complained about excessive cleaning with current Epsons. We currently operate 2 11880's, a 7900, a 3880, and a 4900. All but the 3880 use auto nozzle checks and clean, and about once a week one of them will trigger a clean. The 3880 has had one clog is the 8 months we've had it running. One 11880 is over 4 years old and has only required one of it's 3 maintenance tanks to be replaced, guessing it has cleaned less than 30 times in the 4 years. The 4900 is now several months old, and has triggered a clean one time since I started using it.
Of course each user will see a different experience based on usage and humidity, but circumstances causing a current Epson to clean frequently will also lead to a head replacement on a Canon sooner as well - they aren't "better" at not clogging, they just have an nice system which makes it transparent to the user (which is certainly very nice).
Yes there are issues with some printers (I myself had one which had to be replaced from excessive cleaning) and part of the problem arises from a useful concept of auto nozzle detect/auto nozzle clean which makes clogs similarly transparent to the end user. In the beginning the printers were plagued with false nozzle clog triggering unnecessary cleans but I've found recent firmware changes have made it reliable in my case.
My point is to assume every epson printer out there has the problems of some of those that comment on this forum is quite misleading, as is basing on experiences with a 4000. Satisfied users rarely post comments, and despite what many think Epson still outsells Canon in this type of printer by a substantial number.
This isn't to knock Canon, the new x300 series output is terrific, it has the advantage of instant MK to PK switching, and they technology does keep the clogged nozzles out of your face. But to be honest, there is no way I have used several hundred dollars of ink keeping my 11880 running. And if your customers are delighted with the 4000 output, the Canon x100 series certainly beats that.
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Hi Wayne,
Thanks for your insight into these printers. Let's say you're right and that the Epsons are getting a bad rap from guys like me who have "ancient" printers and are looking for a new one. Currently, I can get an Epson 4900 here in Canada for $1600.00. If I buy it, will I be assured that my head clogging days are behind me as you have said? Will my dream of turning on the printer and printing with the HDR colors wow me? Or, will I be plagued as some have written here about the problems with the x900 series printers. Or should I play it safe and get a Canon x100 or x300 series printer and know that I can turn it on and print as so many have said.
But, 3 times burned and now shy to believe what is true. Do you see my dilemma? I would love to get the 4900 and have an up to date printer but to fall into that pit once more, I'm not sure.
Hopefully, some 4900 users will pitch in and confirm the virtues of the x900 printers.
Paul
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As long time user of the 6100, my opinion is that if you didn't know there was a 6300, you'd be very impressed with the 6100's output. But as always, if there's something more recent, we pine for it. My canvas supplier is also a Canon agent and I've seen the 6300 output - it's very good, but I won't change to it until my 6100 is unserviceable.
If I had no printer, and both in front of me, I'd get the 6300.
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As long time user of the 6100, my opinion is that if you didn't know there was a 6300, you'd be very impressed with the 6100's output. But as always, if there's something more recent, we pine for it. My canvas supplier is also a Canon agent and I've seen the 6300 output - it's very good, but I won't change to it until my 6100 is unserviceable.
If I had no printer, and both in front of me, I'd get the 6300.
Likewise with my 5100 that arrived unexpectedly yesterday just two days after ordering, as compared to my tired old 5000, which I thought still had pretty good output after five and a half years.
Pete
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Well put Wayne. I agree with everything he said and, we too, are dealers of Epson and Canon. We move A LOT of Epson printers and we maintain close contact with all our printer customers, for obvious reasons. We advise our customers to call us first, before they call Epson with an issue, and we get VERY few calls and/or complaints from our Epson users. Great equipment.
@enduser - The 6300 has a 20% increase in color gamut from the 6100, according to Canon, which brings it close to the gamut of the Epson X900 series.
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@enduser - The 6300 has a 20% increase in color gamut from the 6100, according to Canon, which brings it close to the gamut of the Epson X900 series.
It also has improved black inks and better screening/dithering which brings improved gradations in soft subtle tones ...