Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: mediumcool on September 09, 2011, 01:13:41 am
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Impressive test results (http://www.macworld.com/article/162220/2011/09/even_more_thunderbolt_results.html#lsrc.rss_main) from Macworld.
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And one more thing (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8782412.htm)!
Laptops are the new desktops.
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And one more thing (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8782412.htm)!
Laptops are the new desktops.
Desktops?
You mean towers.
Pretty much anything in an actual desktop box has had a laptop motherboard in it for the last few years.
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Desktops?
You mean towers.
Please don’t tell me what I mean.
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And one more thing (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8782412.htm)!
Laptops are the new desktops.
This seems to be the overall trend.
Meanwhile, there is a strong segment of users who want/need the power of the 920/930/950/960/980/990 i7's in a desktop/tower format.. in fact, this series might be the most significant CPU of recent times spawning the new Sandy Bridge desktop processors which will precede Ivy Bridge.
Yet, one important computer maker acts like they don't even exist. Or those who need/want USB 3.0.
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The title of this thread includes the word positive and Thunderbolt; please do not try to hijack it with an enervating and not-so-subtle agenda.
Stick to the subject, or create another thread. Please.
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The title of this thread includes the word positive and Thunderbolt; please do not try to hijack it with an enervating and not-so-subtle agenda.
Stick to the subject, or create another thread. Please.
Sure, no problem. Your thread just didn't seem to be gaining much traction, and it seemed relevant to your "laptops are the new desktops" comment. But if all you're looking to do is ignore the obvious and pat Thunderbolt on the back I will accommodate.
On the subject, I think Thunderbolt is great technology and frankly I've been surprised at the number of peripherals released, even just since the start of that other thread about Thunderbolt. Much better than USB 3.0, FW800, Display Port, or any new interface in recent history. It appears they may have learned from their mistakes. Let's hope so, I'd love to see fast new devices available for my PC's at roughly the same cost as USB2.0 devices. Sometimes it's great to be wrong, but it's never wrong to question and analyze.
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Your thread just didn't seem to be gaining much traction, and it seemed relevant to your "laptops are the new desktops" comment.
Steve, “traction” was and is not a concern to me; and, yes, your first sentence was relevant.
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4225/traction.png)
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I really don't see many good things about thunderbolt. Great idea, but what use if the only thing I can use it with are Mac books.... No sense in that.
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Steve, “traction” was and is not a concern to me; and, yes, your first sentence was relevant.
You wouldn't have been disappointed if the thread/question you posted received not a single reply? If you want 'discussion' (it's in the dictionary too) you post a thread in a forum. If you want to promote or advertise perhaps a banner ad would be more appropriate? Better yet, you could choreograph an entire thread, send out scripts to relevant members, lock out the rest, and watch the story unfold. Beautiful eh?
In any case, I'm starting to see a more clear future for Lightpeak if not Thunderbolt. And I'm glad. Another empty interface promise wouldn't have served anyone.
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I really don't see many good things about thunderbolt. Great idea, but what use if the only thing I can use it with are Mac books.... No sense in that.
Patience (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/09/14/intel.cactus.ridge.for.thunderbolt.outlined.at.idf/). Apple got a head start because they helped develop it. And desktop Macs have it too, not just Mac portables.
[fixed link]
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From the "coming soon" corner:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/09/thunderbolt-coming-to-windows-pcs-next-year-from-acer-and-asus.ars
None of these things happen overnight, just look at USB3 and indeed USB2. But looks like it may have legs outside of Macs.
martin
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From the "coming soon" corner:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/09/thunderbolt-coming-to-windows-pcs-next-year-from-acer-and-asus.ars
None of these things happen overnight, just look at USB3 and indeed USB2. But looks like it may have legs outside of Macs.
martin
*May* seems rather tentative to me! ;)
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You wouldn't have been disappointed if the thread/question you posted received not a single reply?
Steve, why do you throw out rhetorical questions such as the above? You cannot know my purpose in starting this thread, except by inference in the title.
If you want 'discussion' (it's in the dictionary too) you post a thread in a forum.
Again, how do you know discussion is a prime purpose of this or any particular thread? I wanted to post information that would not be hijacked by naysayers and seeming platform bigots. I will continue to post such information that I discover that may help to shed light on what appears (for reasons unknown to me) to be an extremely emotive subject. Is it that Apple got a head start on the rest of the computer industry by co-developing the copper-based system with Intel?
If you want to promote or advertise perhaps a banner ad would be more appropriate? Better yet, you could choreograph an entire thread, send out scripts to relevant members, lock out the rest, and watch the story unfold. Beautiful eh?
Not beautiful at all, Steve; this is *sarcasm* from where I am sitting.
In any case, I'm starting to see a more clear future for Lightpeak if not Thunderbolt. And I'm glad. Another empty interface promise wouldn't have served anyone.
Good for you, and I hope it is in part because of my links. However, Steve, Lightpeak was Intel’s internal project name; the shipping copper-based product, and the next generation, is and will be called Thunderbolt (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4194/intels-codename-lightpeak-launches-as-thunderbolt).
[changed comma to semicolon]
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Um, I think this is intended for Sony because of a proprietary protocol they have developed:
USB-IF Statement Regarding Unauthorized Use of USB Connectors and Specifications (http://www.usb.org/press/USB_Connector_Tech_Bulletin.pdf)
Executive summary:
USB connectors are not general purpose connectors and are not designed to be used in support of other technology applications or standards or as combo connectors. The unauthorized use of USB connectors and specifications may cause a variety of problems with interoperability, compatibility, usability, and may lead to hardware failures, consumer confusion [my emphasis] as well as other legal and marketing issues. The USB-IF promotes the benefits of USB technology and facilitates the development of high-quality, compatible USB devices that have achieved USB-IF certification. Thus, the organization does not consent to the unauthorized use of USB connectors as these unauthorized connectors cannot ensure reliability and ease-of-use or deliver the brand promise associated with certified USB products.
Background (http://thisismynext.com/2011/07/07/sony-light-peak-apple-thunderbolt-intel/). BTW, I disagree utterly with the author’s story title.
[added sentence to end]
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Steve, why do you throw out rhetorical questions such as the above? You cannot know my purpose in starting this thread, except by inference in the title.
Again, how do you know discussion is a prime purpose of this or any particular thread? I wanted to post information that would not be hijacked by naysayers and seeming platform bigots. I will continue to post such information that I discover that may help to shed light on what appears (for reasons unknown to me) to be an extremely emotive subject. Is it that Apple got a head start on the rest of the computer industry by co-developing the copper-based system with Intel?
Not beautiful at all, this is *sarcasm* from where I am sitting.
Good for you, and I hope it is in part because of my links. However, Steve, Lightpeak was Intel’s internal project name; the shipping copper-based product, and the next generation, is and will be called Thunderbolt (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4194/intels-codename-lightpeak-launches-as-thunderbolt).
1. When you post a thread in a public forum, the "purpose" should be obvious. I asked because it isn't. Why don't you share?
2. We assume a thread in a public forum is for "discussion." Even if informational, when you leave it unlocked then it invites discussion.
3. As far as "platform bigots" go, this is one area where you have been obvious.
4. You do a lot of sarcasm, to most every person who responded to this thread.
5. No, your posts haven't been helpful. Mostly they've been hostile. In fact, can't think of one that wasn't days or weeks behind the industry news. You do realize IDF has been going on and thousands of articles posted across the web? Even a brief cruise on the net reveals more recent Thunderbolt/Lightpeak news.
I'll never see the purpose of those who feel the need to defend their platform. Mac's have major issues regulating them to to a minor market share. Not providing ANY platform for the most significant CPU (desktop i7's) in recent times being one. Not supporting USB3.0 is another. $50 cables. Stifling discussion about their weaknesses serves no one. I've been wanting to buy a Mac and try out OSx for years, so far every time they've turned me off because of such issues. IMO a perceived slight advantage in operator UI does not justify a significant increase in price, and this is compounded by not offering the best value hardware or the most popular interfaces for peripherals. I'm also not a "style over function" kinda guy. I want to experience OSx, but they'll need to address these issues before I get behind them. Competition is healthy and good for everyone. The "everyone else doesn't get it" mindset went out of style with the He-Man Women Hater's Club..
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I think mental masturbation can be good! ;) If the OP was just posting a link to a website in order to educate the rest of us, there's truly nothing wrong with that. However, since it is from Macworld and there are a lot of Mac users here, I'd assume this isn't earth shattering news! I don't believe it was a rhetorical question when one asked if you'd be disappointed if nobody replied to thread. Rhetorical is also in the dictionary! ;)
Oh, my opinion? There are too many interfaces and too many choices for everything! Just look at cell phone cells, too many standards in the USA, have one!!
OK, back to the "debate"
Steve, save your money and stick with windows, let morons like myself test out Macs, Iphones, Imacs, MB Pros, Ipads, Leopards, Snow Leopards, Lions, etc. I'm trying to love Apple products, however their proprietary BS, I can't take an extra battery for my MB Pro and very difficult upgrade path (Hard Drive replacement in Imac is a NIGHTMARE) sickens me! I do agree, their products are stylish, does that matter?
Ps, Can Thunderbolt be "negative" ?
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No more, Steve; I find you far too aggressive.
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Impressive test results (http://www.macworld.com/article/162220/2011/09/even_more_thunderbolt_results.html#lsrc.rss_main) from Macworld.
Posted same day of linked story. Can’t get fresher than that! :)
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Maximum number (http://appleheadlines.com/2011/09/16/thunderbolt-display-no-daisy-chaining-to-mini-displayport-monitors-mac-mini-can-have-up-to-3-displays/) of TB displays possible on currently-shipping Thunderbolt-compatible Macs.
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First Look (http://www.macworld.com/article/162365/2011/09/first_look_apple_thunderbolt_display.html?lsrc=top_1): Apple Thunderbolt Display
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No more, Steve; I find you far too aggressive.
I apologize for not meeting your expectations.
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Steve, save your money and stick with windows, let morons like myself test out Macs, Iphones, Imacs, MB Pros, Ipads, Leopards, Snow Leopards, Lions, etc. I'm trying to love Apple products, however their proprietary BS, I can't take an extra battery for my MB Pro and very difficult upgrade path (Hard Drive replacement in Imac is a NIGHTMARE) sickens me! I do agree, their products are stylish, does that matter?
Ps, Can Thunderbolt be "negative" ?
a. I truly want to try the OSx platform. Every time I get close, Apple does something significant to throw me off. Sad. I'm considering a Hackintosh project. Love my ipod..
b. Apparently.
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More devices (http://www.macworld.com/article/162319/2011/09/thunderbolt_strikes_at_2011_intel_developer_forum.html#lsrc.mod_rel) from more vendors.
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LaCie ships Thunderbolt-compatible external drive (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9220151/LaCie_ships_Thunderbolt_compatible_external_drive?taxonomyId=12).
Apple’s TB display (http://www.apple.com/displays/).
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LaCie is the BOSE of peripherals. Lots of marketing, looks good on the outside, cheapest possible components on the inside. In 25+ years as an IT manager I've seen about 30% failure rate in LaCie external drives, and it's the power supplies and bridge/controller that fails, not the HD. So won't be touching their TB drives.
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LaCie is the BOSE of peripherals. Lots of marketing, looks good on the outside, cheapest possible components on the inside. In 25+ years as an IT manager I've seen about 30% failure rate in LaCie external drives, and it's the power supplies and bridge/controller that fails, not the HD. So won't be touching their TB drives.
Noted.
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PC Mag reviews (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393397,00.asp) the Apple Thunderbolt Display.
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AnandTech’s take (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-display-review/1) on the Thunderbolt Display.
Connect a MacBook Air to a Thunderbolt Display and not only do you get more pixels, but you get more connectivity. Gigabit Ethernet and FireWire 800 are now retrofitted to the MacBook Air. For those notebook-as-a-desktop users who migrated from old MacBook Pros to the 13-inch MacBook Air, the Thunderbolt Display is a must-have. The biggest feature for me is Gigabit Ethernet. For large file transfers 802.11n just doesn't cut it.
Anand Lal Shimpi
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Bizarre thread? Agenda vs. Tenaciousness. Agenda apparently wins.
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Bizarre thread? Agenda vs. Tenaciousness. Agenda apparently wins.
My agenda as you describe it, Raw shooter, is to talk about TB products that are shipping or that will be available soon (that is, not next year), and which may be useful for certain workflows. Carrying on about USB 3.0 as a rival (it ain’t particularly) or as some sort of combo with TB (politically and technically way out of line), and denigration of a particular comcomitant computer platform are the reasons why I deliberately put *positive* in the title. See other thread. Incidentally, I cannot use Thunderbolt technology until I upgrade two computers, but will do so for the twin advantages of reduction of cabling as much as the speed potential; aren’t you excited by the potential of 900MB/second to and from a laptop? I am.
I search every few days to see what’s happening, but a lot of the hits are old; I try to link to fresh news, as that will be more current, by any definition. BTW, have you read the AnandTech review? Astonishingly detailed, as they tend to be, but not without criticism and caveat.
Got anything positive to report about Thunderbolt hardware, yerself? No? ;)
And I regret that I do not understand your *Agenda vs. Tenaciousness* phrase.
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Why not create a list of TB peripherals that will be available by the end of the year? I'm certainly having a hard time finding anything other than a monitor and external hard drives. I'd like to believe that card readers, printers & scanners will become available.
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I'd like to believe that card readers, printers & scanners will become available.
From what I've seen in the early going, it's more likely you'll be plugging your USB, Firewire, eSATA, PCI, etc devices into some kind of Thunderbolt based hub which then needs only a single connection to your computer. I like the concept; how widely accepted in the market remains to be seen.
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Why not create a list of TB peripherals that will be available by the end of the year? I'm certainly having a hard time finding anything other than a monitor and external hard drives. I'd like to believe that card readers, printers & scanners will become available.
Kenneth, thanks for the question.
But are you asking me to do this, or is your question simply rhetorical? I have no more access to information than you (probably less access since my wireless broadband quota this month is used up and my service is now throttled to 64Kbps :( and FWIW I live in Australia, a lonnnnnnng commute from California); as I said in the previous post, I search every few days using Google. You could do the same, I assume.
It seems obvious to me that a number of vendors/manufacturers are waiting for [to use another poster’s favoured noun] traction, before committing to production and distribution of peripherals while the market is currently Mac-only, and therefore limited in volume; historically, many PC vendors have not had, or have been unwilling to acquire, the chops to write drivers for OSX. (What is great about TB itself is that computers grok it as PCI-E, without any mucking about. So far.)
Your mention of printers and scanners is particularly interesting; I hadn’t thought much about these at all in this context. Firstly, printers: with wide-format devices in particular, the ability to push millions of bits quickly across an interface is superficially attractive, but I wonder if that is sufficient to offset (no pun intended!) the slowness of printer heads squirting their way across great widths of paper. Balance is important; not much point having a system fast in one area, but slow in another.
Second: high rez scanners are specialist devices—here I am talking about large flatbed and film scanners; I have never found SCSI or USB2 to be much of a speed impediment on an A4 scanner when working at reasonable resolutions.
You have also possibly forgotten the extension chassis that were mentioned in a previous post; Marathon has been making these for years, and Sonnet has joined in. Also in that link were pro video adapters and other devices.
But the next post made to this thread as I was writing this is especially cogent: to save rampant cable spaghetti, other connection protocols will be attached via a hub, of which the Thunderbolt Display is the first to market. Sonnet has announced one too, but without the 27" IPS display!
It’s early days, and while TB may never be as omnipresent as USB, that’s fine with me. USB can connect through Thunderbolt, a much higher-end specification, but the reverse will not apply.
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From what I've seen in the early going, it's more likely you'll be plugging your USB, Firewire, eSATA, PCI, etc devices into some kind of Thunderbolt based hub which then needs only a single connection to your computer. I like the concept; how widely accepted in the market remains to be seen.
Quite right, of course. The TB Display is the first hub to market, as far as I know, beating even Sonnet’s offering, previously linked to. I found the AnandTech story the single most informative piece about Thunderbolt I have read, and learned quite a lot. The stupid direction Sony went in with their implementation of TB over USB is easier to put into perspective after reading the more techy info about the interface, bus, and cabling, for instance. And gigabit EtherNet? Excellent!
What has not been spoken of is the support for Thunderbolt by OSes and hardware on the PC side. I have searched repeatedly to see if Win7 supports Thunderbolt, and have found zero references to Linux support. Perhaps somebody can elucidate. I did find a vague link about Gigabyte logic boards supporting TB down the track. Are PC assemblers waiting for Ivy Ridge, rather than whacking in Eagle Ridge or Light Ridge sub-assemblies? Dunno; or is everybody waiting for Microsoft to incorporate support in Win8? Apple has long had the advantage of a much smaller ecosystem to test and deploy hardware.
Another bit of information from AnandTech was about the Thunderbolt controllers Apple is using; they are separate sub-assemblies (Eagle Ridge and Light Ridge), one apparent reason for the extremely compact MBA using a smaller, and less able part (Eagle Ridge). So why are PC makers not incorporating these right now? It could be that Intel can supply Apple’s relatively modest requirements without strain, or it could be that Apple is further along the curve, due to developing the copper implementation with Intel. Not enough info, even with the intel conference recently.
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Too many Ridges really. ;D
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With regard to printers, they're not waiting for data at current connection speeds, so increasing data speeds won't improve print times.
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(http://www.datapro.net/images/apple-macbook-pro-mini-displayport.jpg)
The physical connector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort) used for Thunderbolt (née LightPeak), Mini DisplayPort.
You can see that MDP is narrower than the USB connector, a useful trait for deployment in small laptops. For those who haven’t seen it in the “flesh”, it is a very small connector, but not fragile. According to Wikipedia, a number of manufacturers in additionto Apple have adopted MDP:
HP announced Envy 14 and Envy 17 notebooks with Mini DisplayPort [5 May 2010]
Dell announced XPS 14, 15, and 17 notebooks with Mini DisplayPort [20 October 2010]
Apple and Intel announced an enhancement of the Mini DisplayPort specification with Intel's Thunderbolt technology, which had been developed under the name Light Peak [24 February 2011]
Lenovo announced ThinkPad X1 notebook with Mini DisplayPort [17 May 2011]
I use a Mini DisplayPort-to-DVI adapter to run a Dell 2410 from my 13" MBP.
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My big disappointment is there are no card readers using TB. It would certainly reduce the wait time transferring data from camera to storage or post processing.
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My big disappointment is there are no card readers using TB. It would certainly reduce the wait time transferring data from camera to storage or post processing.
I’m confident that they will come. I have a FW800 reader for my Aptus files and it would be nice if it was a bit faster, but I can live with it.
Are you a Mac or Win user? I still haven’t found any info about TB adoption on the Dark Side (Star Wars humour), and as far as response to my request for info from other members, it’s <sound>[crickets]</sound>.
Is it MS, or timid vendors?
:)
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Are you a Mac or Win user? I still haven’t found any info about TB adoption on the Dark Side (Star Wars humour), and as far as response to my request for info from other members, it’s <sound>[crickets]</sound>.
Is it MS, or timid vendors?
:)
Neither - the answer, as usual, has multiple facets:
1) Licensing; Although based on Intel's Light Peak initiative (high speed computer bus implemented on fiber), Thunderbolt, when introduced was owned by Apple. In July, Apple signed licensing over to Intel, although it's still not clear what rights / licensing restrictions other Vendors utilizing Intel's chipsets will have.
2) Implementation; I'm personally convinced the first release of the forthcoming socket 2011 Z79 Platform will be the Mac Pro. I expect 1st generation Z79 Mainboard makers to not offer TB.
3) Again, remember that TB is a bus technology - Windows, *nix, support should not be an issue.
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Hi John
1) Licensing; Although based on Intel's Light Peak initiative (high speed computer bus implemented on fiber), Thunderbolt, when introduced was owned by Apple. In July, Apple signed licensing over to Intel, although it's still not clear what rights / licensing restrictions other Vendors utilizing Intel's chipsets will have.
As far as I know, Apple registered the trademark; a trademark is not a patent. Intel stressed (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/20/intel.says.thunderbolt.trademark.still.its.own/) in May of this year that the IP was freely licensable (they obviously expect to make money on parts); if Intel was bullshitting, who can be trusted? I think Intel and Apple have both learned lessons from the licensing of FireWire. And of course Intel developed USB in the first place. ;D
Found this (http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/thunderbolt-exclusive-to-apple-until-2012-will-anyone-care-by-then-20110225/) from February which seems to confirm an exclusivity deal for Apple, which may account for PC-makers not introducing TB until 2012.
2) Implementation; I'm personally convinced the first release of the forthcoming socket 2011 Z79 Platform will be the Mac Pro. I expect 1st generation Z79 Mainboard makers to not offer TB.
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are getting at here. Speaking of the Mac Pro, there will be less need for it with the PCI-E expansion possibilities inherent in TB (Magma, Sonnet, AJA so far). I wouldn’t be shocked if it were to be discontinued eventually; Apple sell many more laptops and iMacs (and minis!). Apple seems to be moving in a mobile direction in all parts of its portfolio. Some will not be happy about this.
3) Again, remember that TB is a bus technology - Windows, *nix, support should not be an issue.
Yup, it is a bus technology, but politics, economics and pragmatism collide (and collude ;)) in engineering decisions; this post (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/93644-windows-8-supports-usb-3-0-and-10-billion-usb-devices-but-not-thunderbolt) raises doubts.
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I'm sorry - you've misunderstood the intent of my post
1) I have no idea what the exact licensing mechanism is for the "Thunderbolt" moniker, but I do know that Apple formally gave Intel rights on July 9th. What previous intentions were, are of course moot. Again the technology had always been Intel's and is implemented on Intel chipsets only.
2) My expectation is that the first non-apple implementations of TB will be on socket 2011 mainboards - I'm sorry if you thought I was implying anything other than that....
3) The ExtremeTech author is guilty of confusing TB with USB 3.0 - they are completely different, TB being a BUS interface. In point of fact - if you load bootcamp on a TB equipped MacBook Pro, the new Apple TB display will work from Windows 7.....
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-display-review/9
The deal is this: Bus interfaces are implemented at the chipset level and are included in the chipset driver package supplied by the maker. So, if I buy a newer mainboard and try to install lets say Windows XP on it, I'm going to have to download and install the chipset driver. In the case of Win 8 - an article talking about what MS will or won't do with a beta O/S thats not even close to Release Candidate stage? Really?
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I'm sorry - you've misunderstood the intent of my post
Which one? ;D
1) I have no idea what the exact licensing mechanism is for the "Thunderbolt" moniker, but I do know that Apple formally gave Intel rights on July 9th. What previous intentions were, are of course moot. Again the technology had always been Intel's and is implemented on Intel chipsets only.
This is what I have been trying to find out all along: Intel developed an optical I/O system called Light Peak and was joined in development by Apple, which provided the connector (mini DisplayPort) and very likely some IP to do with transmission over copper rather than optical fibre (Apple has plenty of serial bus expertise, and maybe patents too). So I dispute that the technology has always been Intel’s; it’s been collaborative [at least] in the move to copper. I know that the chipsets are made by Intel, John, as I have referred to in previous posts.
2) My expectation is that the first non-apple implementations of TB will be on socket 2011 mainboards - I'm sorry if you thought I was implying anything other than that....
I have no opinion on what you were implying, or not implying—I simply said that I did not understand it. I am most reluctant to make an inference when I am baffled by a statement. Since I am a Mac user, I have little knowledge or interest in the naming of logic boards (we take what Apple gives us and enjoy it! ::) ).
3) The ExtremeTech author is guilty of confusing TB with USB 3.0 - they are completely different, TB being a BUS interface.
I do not see that in the article at all, and USB is (of course) the acronym for Universal Serial Bus; if it looks like a bus, walks like a bus, quacks like a bus etc. it’s a bus! I really don’t know what you’re on about here.
The deal is this: Bus interfaces are implemented at the chipset level and are included in the chipset driver package supplied by the maker.
Not necessarily so: I have installed USB and FireWire PCI cards on computers which had no hardware support for these serial busses on their main boards. Is it possible that PCI add-in cards with TB connectors will eventually be made available for older computers?
In the case of Win 8 - an article talking about what MS will or won't do with a beta O/S thats not even close to Release Candidate stage? Really?
Why not? MS should be making clear their intentions vis-a-vis Thunderbolt (only thing I could find yesterday was an old-ish reference to MS testing TB as a networking protocol). In the absence of confirmation, rumours abound.
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Is it possible that PCI add-in cards with TB connectors will eventually be made available for older computers?
Not alone (http://www.quora.com/Is-a-PCI-expansion-card-which-supports-Thunderbolt-available) in this regard.
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Target Disk booting (http://blog.macsales.com/10882-thunderbolt-via-target-disk-mode) via Thunderbolt.
EFI is the bottleneck, unfortunately; no real advantage over FW800.
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Grain of salt required (http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/26/exclusive-apple-dictated-light-peak-creation-to-intel-could-be/)?
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I do not see that in the article at all, and USB is (of course) the acronym for Universal Serial Bus; if it looks like a bus, walks like a bus, quacks like a bus etc. it’s a bus! I really don’t know what you’re on about here.
The only thing USB, Firewire and PCI-E / TB share is the term BUS - they are not equivalent - sorry.
Not necessarily so: I have installed USB and FireWire PCI cards on computers which had no hardware support for these serial busses on their main boards. Is it possible that PCI add-in cards with TB connectors will eventually be made available for older computers?
Nope, TB add's additional PCI-E lanes, thats one reason why I think first non-apple implementation will be socket 2011.
Why not? MS should be making clear their intentions vis-a-vis Thunderbolt (only thing I could find yesterday was an old-ish reference to MS testing TB as a networking protocol). In the absence of confirmation, rumours abound.
Again, you insist on confusing a true I/O Bus with a peripheral bus - there *is* a huge difference. Please *look* at the block diagram's in Anand's review of the Apple TB display. Anand points out that although the Mac TB display works fine running Windows 7, the Promise RAID does not; why? Because Promise hasn't released a Windows driver for the *device* (yet). It's no different than plugging an internal RAID card into your computer's PCI-E bus; can your O/S see the card? Yup. Can it communicate with the card? - not without a driver.
In short, TB is the *same* as the internal PCI-E Bus on any modern Mainboard -you don't need a driver to be able to communicate through the bus. So, whenever you read about "product X over Thunderbolt" - substitute in your mind "product X over your PC's internal PCI-E bus"....
Firewire and USB are designed as external Bus protocols requiring separate chipsets along with a driver to communicate through them. Both Apple and MS offer native support for these external Bus's (well, Apple not so much for USB 3). Depending on the device you may very well still need the device driver (scanner, camera, display calibrator).
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The only thing USB, Firewire and PCI-E and TB share is the term BUS - they are not equivalent - sorry.
Don’t be sorry. They share the name bus because they are busses. Pure/simple; you introduced the word equivalent. And why is USB3 widely seen as a competitor to Thunderbolt, if they are not in some way equivalent in what they offer the user?
Again, you insist on confusing a true I/O Bus with a peripheral bus - there *is* a huge difference.
What is a “false” I/O bus? ;) If it’s outside the computer housing, I am entirely at ease calling it a peripheral, and all TB is after all designed for devices outside the box (prove me wrong, please!). And FireWire under OHCI has had DMA through hardware for a long time. I/O is not the exclusive preserve of one technology.
In short, TB is the *same* as the internal PCI-E Bus on any modern Mainboard -you don't need a driver to be able to communicate through the bus.
John, but what about the logic on the Intel chipset and in the cable? I understand that there are TB drivers for OSX (.kext extensions I assume) that support FB. Maybe somebody with an FB Mac could have a look and post a screenshot.
Your tone seems somewhat aggrieved—I don’t feel that’s necessary. And it should be noted again that I am coming from a Mac perspective, and you from the PC arena. My chief motivation for wanting to understand the slow adoption on the PC side has to do with the viability and availability of products that I would be able to use (I have used Windows in teaching but never for my professional work).
Brings to mind the ironic situation that the iMac [1998] really got USB going, whereas uptake among PC assemblers was modest to begin with.
;D
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Why not? MS should be making clear their intentions vis-a-vis Thunderbolt (only thing I could find yesterday was an old-ish reference to MS testing TB as a networking protocol). In the absence of confirmation, rumours abound.
Lol - like Apple always give us so much advance notice about what they intend to do?
When they're ready to share, they will. It's always been that way and always will be :-)
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When they're ready to share, they will. It's always been that way and always will be :-)
Microsoft, or Apple?
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Anyone.
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Anyone.
OK, but remember the Osborne Effect! ;D
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Medium: Let's look at a working diagram of an X58 chipset board to describe the differences between BUS technologies: (this image is from wikipedia, open commons license)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/X58_Block_Diagram.png/719px-X58_Block_Diagram.png)
Classic Intel architecture has always routed various forms of I/O through 2 primary means:
The "northside" -memory access
The "southside" - all other I/O
Starting with the X58, Intel has moved the "north bus" memory controller on the CPU die itself.
On the south side, notice where the PCI-E2 Bus lanes originate - this is where Thunderbolt interface is located.
Compare that with all other I/O through through the ICH10 controller.
What is a “false” I/O bus? If it’s outside the computer housing, I am entirely at ease calling it a peripheral, and all TB is after all designed for devices outside the box (prove me wrong, please!). And FireWire under OHCI has had DMA through hardware for a long time. I/O is not the exclusive preserve of one technology.
False? I'm differentiating between an Internal and External bus and you know it. OHCI (an external BUS protocol) does support DMA, but look at the path - it goes through the CPU. Please read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_controller_interface
Note the language in the first paragraph regarding the need for a software driver in all implementations?
John, but what about the logic on the Intel chipset and in the cable? I understand that there are TB drivers for OSX (.kext extensions I assume) that support FB. Maybe somebody with an FB Mac could have a look and post a screenshot.
Because of the bandwidth involved, TB cables are active - there is no driver involved with the cable. Remember this was originally concieved and designed by Intel to be an optical interface.
Your tone seems somewhat aggrieved—I don’t feel that’s necessary. And it should be noted again that I am coming from a Mac perspective, and you from the PC arena. My chief motivation for wanting to understand the slow adoption on the PC side has to do with the viability and availability of products that I would be able to use (I have used Windows in teaching but never for my professional work
I come both both sides, owning Macs and PC's - the architecture between the two is now identical. I'm not aggrieved at all, but it quite apparent you haven't taken the time to read any of the links I've supplied - Anand's review of Apple's TB display contains a beautiful explanation of what TB is. Try reading it :)
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Brings to mind the ironic situation that the iMac [1998] really got USB going, whereas uptake among PC assemblers was modest to begin with.
;D
Yeah, sure.
FWIW, in the end of 1998, (the iMac was announced in May) it was almost impossible to purchase a motherboard without USB... Typical of the time, the 440BX chipset
http://download.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/se440bx2/72163201.pdf
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/440bx-motherboard-review,review-90.html
The reason the start was slow was that USB 1 wasn't really "average user friendly" and did not deliver on the promises (incompatible hubs for example). USB 1.1 fixed that, in August 1998 and that's this update release that sparked adoption.
The iMac claim to fame is that it dropped other connectors for the keyboard and the mouse. Still, as of today (I still have an early iMac and several 440BX based motherboards) the Mac doesn't recognize early card readers, while the 440BX ones are well behaved (that's a driver issue, but still...).
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Optical is on its way (http://news.techworld.com/networking/3306330/apple-mac-thunderbolt-ports-to-support--fibre-optic-cables/).
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Intel finally released presentation notes and content from IDF 2011 :) Here's a paper talking about TB - hopefully should clear some confusion (in particular page 12)
https://intel.wingateweb.com/us11/scheduler/downloadFileCounting.do?sesfid=BB5EA6E25A8ECAD2E227068168A25C84&abb=AE09539F4DB9D1A900C561F42471AC57&fn=CBCC2DAC2569591FF96D2E557F44CD87D68374B6609B569742BB770ABEE01C5C
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Acer and Asus announcing Windows based TB devices in 2012
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Thunderbolt-Light-Peak-Ivy-Bridge-Mooly-Eden-displayPort,13444.html
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Hi,
i 've been following this thread, and google-ing around;..
But didn't find any awnsers, maybe you guys would have a better inside..
Is there already on the market a "thunderbolt Hub", for example to USB or to Firewire.
I know sonnet came out with a solution,
and i find loads of posts about a Belkin hub,.. But didn't find anything actually for sale...
So except the Sonnet adapter, is there at this moment already anything for sale out there ?...
thanks
ju
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I purchased a 350MGz G3 Yosemite when they first came out. No floppy, serial, or parallel ports, and had these things called USB and firewire ports, but not much to plug into them at the time. The ADB went the way of the Dodo in the G4.
Everyone yammered on about it the same as now with TB. New technology is built on the back of the previous, remember that old BBC show Connections?
Or as they say - "It steam engines when it's steam engine time".
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I purchased a 350MGz G3 Yosemite when they first came out. No floppy, serial …
Not so true, because FW and USB are serial protocols, but I agree with the general thrust of your post.
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Macworld mixes and matches (http://www.macworld.com/article/163773/2011/12/thunderbolt_how_devices_affect_each_other_on_a_daisy_chain.html#lsrc.nl_mwweek_h_cbstories).
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Thunderbolt is dead in the water. Sure a few video production houses might use it but I've seen more than a fair share of houses go with a windows tower.
Slower processors, poor graphics cards, and connectors that limit peripherals.
What a joke.
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Thunderbolt is dead in the water. Sure a few video production houses might use it but I've seen more than a fair share of houses go with a windows tower.
Slower processors, poor graphics cards, and connectors that limit peripherals.
What a joke.
Claim chowder (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Claim%20Chowder)? We’ll see. ;D
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Thunderbolt coming to generic PCs next spring: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/12/windows-pcs-with-thunderbolt-ports-could-come-as-early-as-april.ars
From the article: "Gigabyte Technology reportedly plans to have Thunderbolt-equipped motherboards available around that time, while Sony is expected to incorporate the standard in its high-end laptops. "
"Acer and Asus both announced plans to ship products with Thunderbolt ports beginning next year during the Intel Developers Forum in September."
So yeah, pretty much dead in the water. FSV DITW, anyway.
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Lenovo laptops lurking (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223156/Lenovo_adds_new_Core_chips_Thunderbolt_to_ThinkPads).
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Thunderbolt seems to be getting significant attention from companies other than Apple at last; perhaps there was an initial exclusive for Apple. In particular, third party cables that should be less expensive, if still not cheap.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/01/will-2012-be-thunderbolts-year-devices-arrive-in-force-at-ces.ars
I hope so anyway, if only for the prospect of docking my laptop through a single cable that does everything, fast.
P. S. and put it on the next iPad, please.
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P. S. and put it on the next iPad, please.
Patents already in.
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Now *this* is cool; a Macbook Air running Adobe Premiere editing Red 4K content using a Red Rocket in a Sonnet Thunderbolt Enclosure... oh yeah running on Windows ;)
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2012/01/editing-red-video-on-a-macbook-air.html
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Very cool!
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WD intros (http://www.cnet.com.au/wd-demos-its-first-thunderbolt-drive-at-macworld-339330506.htm) TB-only drives at Macworld. Hope removing USB, FW and e-SATA connectors will keep pricing down; we’ll see how that goes.
From the story:
From the demo we saw with four My Book Thunderbolt Duo units, the drive seems capable of offering sustained data speeds of around 520MBps for writing and 770MBps for reading. These are about as good as it can get for a storage device.
(http://cdn.cbsi.com.au/story_media/339330506/apple_1.jpg)
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LaCie is the BOSE of peripherals. Lots of marketing, looks good on the outside, cheapest possible components on the inside. In 25+ years as an IT manager I've seen about 30% failure rate in LaCie external drives, and it's the power supplies and bridge/controller that fails, not the HD. So won't be touching their TB drives.
But can you accept French cooking?
I'm more than happy with my LaCie monitor - and non, Mademoiselle Fate, I tempt you not!
Rob C
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I'm more than happy with my LaCie monitor - and non, Mademoiselle Fate, I tempt you not!
Rob C
I agree somewhat with K.C. As a sometime La Cie reseller, I was immensely pissed off when a FW CD burner died just out of warranty (yes, it was that long ago!). All it needed was a power supply but the Oz distributor would not sell it as a part. Company policy I reckon. But generally, no better or worse than other vendors in terms of reliability in my experience.