Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: markymarkrb on September 01, 2011, 05:53:10 pm
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Does anyone know what Hasselblad does with their trade ins? Is there a Company or website that sells used Hasselblad cameras?
Thanks,
Mark
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It's probably more lucrative to do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zcdoa0XCFo)to trade-ins than let a used Hassy market thrive.
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Does anyone know what Hasselblad does with their trade ins? Is there a Company or website that sells used Hasselblad cameras?
I can't speak for Hasselblad, but at a dealer level a very meaningful percentage of our total back sales are pre-owned backs, and most of those come in as the result of a trade-in.
We even sell at least a few Phase One FX+ scan backs and Phase One Lightphase backs each year.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Hmmm, I am not really sure about that...maybe in our pre-owned equipment page 8)
Also, Hasselblad USA has periodic sales of CPO (Certified Pre-owned) equipment listed for the market. Yes, Virginia, there is a very healthy used Hasselblad digital market.
Kits from price ranges of $7k and up, digital magazines $4k and up...bodies $2500 and up...We do a lot of trade-in's.
Why do you ask MarkyMark?
John
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John,
Thanks for the info. I hadn't checked out your website before but will be checking periodically now. Looks like you guys list some used Hasselblads.
Mark
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John,
Thanks for the info. I hadn't checked out your website before but will be checking periodically now. Looks like you guys list some used Hasselblads.
Mark
+1
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What a silly guy with the blender and hasn't given a thought about all that toxic stuff coming out of there.
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I can't speak for Hasselblad...
Finally! ;D
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David,
Rather than be snippy with the competition why not just give the OP an answer?
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David,
Rather than be snippy with the competition why not just give the OP an answer?
But snippy feels so much better !!!!!
Edmund
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David,
Rather than be snippy with the competition why not just give the OP an answer?
Lordy...
The original question was well answered by John earlier.
But, to clarify, any product worth reselling is taken back to the factory, refurbished and offered back to the dealer network.
As for being snippy, I would like to think my coefficient of snippiness is pretty low around here.
David.
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Hey, intentionally or not, it read as snippy :-\ (as no doubt did my reply) On a more serious note though, I was also interested in the response directly from Hasselblad since you were here.
What are the rules regarding condition etc for trade ins btw? With some of the competitive upgrades it's tempting to pick up older backs on eBay that may have had issues (blown FireWire ports etc - pretty common but expensive to fix for older out of warranty backs) but are attractively priced enough to be potentially useful for an upgrade discount.
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IMHO, both Hasselblad and Phase One will feel a lot stronger the "Pentax factor" in a year or so from now when the new model(s) will emerge and people will start to upgrade. After almost 15 months of sales in Japan I think there are thousands of 645Ds there and even if only 25% of those users will upgrade for the next model that means 500 to more than 1000 units that will flood the ebay. Considering that the price is quite stable in Japan at around 750 000 Yen I guess that 400k to 500k Yen for near mint cameras will be the norm and that amount is about 5200 to 6500 USD today.
Also most likely in the next 12 months the new Pentax "portrait lens" will be a reality and that suggests that the long announced tethering software will also debut hence new applications will be in reach for this system. A lot of people seem to love the Hasselblad 100/2.2 and I have a hunch that Pentax will do exactly such a lens (very fast for MF).
That disruptive effect on the used medium format camera market could be a lot more important than the original 645D launch (especially hampering the ability of P1, H and their dealers to give large discounts on trading old cameras and to further move them to another customer).
Radu
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Does anyone know what Hasselblad does with their trade ins? Is there a Company or website that sells used Hasselblad cameras?
Thanks,
Mark
To your surprise (and mine), if its a DB that is no longer in production, .......They DESTROY IT!!!!!! I asked when I was looking to replace my 528C (which I decided not to). Phase One does exactly the same either with their own, or with Leaf! I don't know about Sinar. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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Hey, intentionally or not, it read as snippy :-\ (as no doubt did my reply) On a more serious note though, I was also interested in the response directly from Hasselblad since you were here.
What are the rules regarding condition etc for trade ins btw? With some of the competitive upgrades it's tempting to pick up older backs on eBay that may have had issues (blown FireWire ports etc - pretty common but expensive to fix for older out of warranty backs) but are attractively priced enough to be potentially useful for an upgrade discount.
No worries. ;)
In theory the trade in should be a working unit.
David
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To your surprise (and mine), if its a DB that is no longer in production, .......They DESTROY IT!!!!!! I asked when I was looking to replace my 528C (which I decided not to). Phase One does exactly the same either with their own, or with Leaf! I don't know about Sinar. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
I am sorry, but there is no destruction going on in the factory!
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Yep not in the factory. They take the backs out to the car park where they keep the elephant.
:D
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I am sorry, but there is no destruction going on in the factory!
OK! they just... split them apart without destruction. :) They obviously prefer screwdrivers from hammers. ??? ........Less noisy than both sledge or elephant! 8) ......and more enviroment friendly too. ;) Obviously the key words from your quote to Graham is "worth reselling". ::) Now I know, there is equipment worth buying..... that is not worth reselling!!!! If I was Has I would give it to charity..... ;) Not to the Elephant mentioned above..... 8) Cheers Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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Hi Nick, thought I'll jump in to say hi.
So you mean to say that the elephant actually can get it destroyed?
I can recall some other manufacturer trying hard to do this without much success.
;)
Best regards
Thierry
Yep not in the factory. They take the backs out to the car park where they keep the elephant.
:D
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Just had to provide another chuckle at the elephant - poor fellow is just looking for a few peanuts...
The used market really gets down to moving the equipment into the hands of a different economic layer; there are many more photographers who would like to shoot medium-format in the sub-$6000 range than sub-$10000 range. For all the same reasons - better color, better detail, better first-appearances with better camera, etc. They are willing to tolerate the few nicks and scratches and not the largest file size and will often trade-up within 12-24 months.
Where there are buyers, there are sellers.
When we execute a trade-in, in some cases, we can help the seller obtain a greater price for their equipment than the standard trade-in credit direct from Hasselblad; in other cases the trade-in credit is greater and it makes sense to take advantage of the trade-in offer.
Hasselblad then cleans and refurbishes those trade-in units that are feasible reconditioned models. Some units are beat up so badly, they are not suitable for re-release.
I'm not complaining, just reporting :)
John
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Hi Nick, thought I'll jump in to say hi.
So you mean to say that the elephant actually can get it destroyed?
I can recall some other manufacturer trying hard to do this without much success.
;)
Best regards
Thierry
That other manufacturer, it doesn't start with an "S" or does it? ;) If it does, it better work a bit more with the software stability, if it wasn't for that I would STILL use it's products (they are better but....) :'( Cheers Theodoros.
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Just had to provide another chuckle at the elephant - poor fellow is just looking for a few peanuts...
The used market really gets down to moving the equipment into the hands of a different economic layer; there are many more photographers who would like to shoot medium-format in the sub-$6000 range than sub-$10000 range. For all the same reasons - better color, better detail, better first-appearances with better camera, etc. They are willing to tolerate the few nicks and scratches and not the largest file size and will often trade-up within 12-24 months.
Where there are buyers, there are sellers.
When we execute a trade-in, in some cases, we can help the seller obtain a greater price for their equipment than the standard trade-in credit direct from Hasselblad; in other cases the trade-in credit is greater and it makes sense to take advantage of the trade-in offer.
Hasselblad then cleans and refurbishes those trade-in units that are feasible reconditioned models. Some units are beat up so badly, they are not suitable for re-release.
I'm not complaining, just reporting :)
John
I suppose that there is always an excuse behind a policy, I just hope that the new owners of the company will change that (IMO wrong) policy and: a)Offer the opportunity to more photographers to get to know the benefits of MF, by buying even cheaper than you state b)Open the system (as far as DB is concerned) to people that own different cameras. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Nope, it doens't start with an "S", Theodoros.
;)
But you probably know that I am not longer in this "S"-shaped boat since over 2 years. So I can't comment on the rest of your comment.
;D
Best regards
Thierry
That other manufacturer, it doesn't start with an "S" or does it? ;) If it does, it better work a bit more with the software stability, if it wasn't for that I would STILL use it's products (they are better but....) :'( Cheers Theodoros.
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Rightly or wrongly I've been under the impression that the manufacturers had a vested interest in keeping the secondhand market relatively 'thin' by offering attractive trade-ins. By taking trade-in's out of the secondhand market they are able to keep residuals high and continue to generate new sales. The last thing you want when you introduce a new model is to flood the market with attractively priced secondhand gear that might take away from new sales - for example the latest Phase One IQ series has opened up the market for a reasonably large number of extremely good current specification backs (e.g. P+ series, Leaf II series etc etc) and you'd think that they have to be careful not to erode the new models with, say, an influx of lot's of pre-own P40+'s, P45+, P65+ backs. I'm sure the same is true with Hasselblad.
If I were the manufacturer, I might look very closely at culling the older backs. You have to wonder where all those earlier generation Phase, Hasselblad, Sinar, Kodak backs have gone because you certainly don't see many for sale any more.
Am I missing the plot?
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Nope, it doens't start with an "S", Theodoros.
;)
But you probably know that I am not longer in this "S"-shaped boat since over 2 years. So I can't comment on the rest of your comment.
;D
Best regards
Thierry
It must be really hard to have to try and defend a wrong policy...., I really understand and excuse David (and you ...in the past). Its something I feel I would never do....(defend a wrong policy...), ......not at the same parking where the elephant is in anyway. :-X Best regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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Rightly or wrongly I've been under the impression that the manufacturers had a vested interest in keeping the secondhand market relatively 'thin' by offering attractive trade-ins. By taking trade-in's out of the secondhand market they are able to keep residuals high and continue to generate new sales. The last thing you want when you introduce a new model is to flood the market with attractively priced secondhand gear that might take away from new sales - for example the latest Phase One IQ series has opened up the market for a reasonably large number of extremely good current specification backs (e.g. P+ series, Leaf II series etc etc) and you'd think that they have to be careful not to erode the new models with, say, an influx of lot's of pre-own P40+'s, P45+, P65+ backs. I'm sure the same is true with Hasselblad.
If I were the manufacturer, I might look very closely at culling the older backs. You have to wonder where all those earlier generation Phase, Hasselblad, Sinar, Kodak backs have gone because you certainly don't see many for sale any more.
Am I missing the plot?
Graham,
When you trade in a P30+ you get about $6.5K. That same P30+ was until recently sold for about $10K. Not too bad of a margin...
Joris.
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I suppose that there is always an excuse behind a policy, I just hope that the new owners of the company will change that (IMO wrong) policy and: a)Offer the opportunity to more photographers to get to know the benefits of MF, by buying even cheaper than you state b)Open the system (as far as DB is concerned) to people that own different cameras. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Theodoros - not quite sure what you are asking/stating in a.), but I agree with get MF in more hands...
b.) open the system as far as DB is concerned;
I am amazed at how many photographers (including readers of this forum) who do not know Hasselblad continues to make digital backs.
The current series (CF) uses i-Adaptor plates to very quickly switch between Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya RZ, Mamiya RB, Fuji GX680, Contax 645, and Rollei 6008. I simply do not know a more "open system" than that - yet, despite all this openness, the buyers (read: the people who vote with their money) choose to purchase the integrated systems by an overwhelming percentage over digital backs.
Hasselblad is making a product (H2D/H3D/H4D) that photographers want to own much like Apple makes their products that consumers want to own for valid reasons; a smart manufacturer is going to make what people want to buy. That makes sense, right? We can see the results when companies ignore the buyers preferences, even in our own industry.
If you like the Hasselblad feel in your hands and happen to need an H-system that will support your brand of digital back, we have an H1 kit ready for purchase in stock & ready to go (including several other sources to readily obtain H1 and H2 bodies.)
I appreciate every opportunity to address the truth of the open system argument, it helps to educate everyone who cares to ask.
John
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The current series (CF) uses i-Adaptor plates to very quickly switch between Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya RZ, Mamiya RB, Fuji GX680, Contax 645, and Rollei 6008. I simply do not know a more "open system" than that - yet, despite all this openness, the buyers (read: the people who vote with their money) choose to purchase the integrated systems by an overwhelming percentage over digital backs.
Thanks to a good eye by a reader, I have been reminded that the CF digital backs were discontinued last month (August 1, 2011) with the CFV digital backs still in production.
Perhaps further evidence of where development effort is concentrated...
John
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"a smart manufacturer is going to make what people want to buy. That makes sense, right?"
in a thread about digital backs i find that quite funny. ::)
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Theodoros - not quite sure what you are asking/stating in a.), but I agree with get MF in more hands...
b.) open the system as far as DB is concerned;
I am amazed at how many photographers (including readers of this forum) who do not know Hasselblad continues to make digital backs.
The current series (CF) uses i-Adaptor plates to very quickly switch between Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya RZ, Mamiya RB, Fuji GX680, Contax 645, and Rollei 6008. I simply do not know a more "open system" than that - yet, despite all this openness, the buyers (read: the people who vote with their money) choose to purchase the integrated systems by an overwhelming percentage over digital backs.
Hasselblad is making a product (H2D/H3D/H4D) that photographers want to own much like Apple makes their products that consumers want to own for valid reasons; a smart manufacturer is going to make what people want to buy. That makes sense, right? We can see the results when companies ignore the buyers preferences, even in our own industry.
If you like the Hasselblad feel in your hands and happen to need an H-system that will support your brand of digital back, we have an H1 kit ready for purchase in stock & ready to go (including several other sources to readily obtain H1 and H2 bodies.)
I appreciate every opportunity to address the truth of the open system argument, it helps to educate everyone who cares to ask.
John
On a), I simply protest to the ....."destruction by an elephant" policy for older backs that are still worthwhile today, specially for the large frame 22mpx ones, that as you surely know, if you excuse resolution, can compete (at 50-100 iso) with todays ultra expensive backs in any other aspect of photography. I'm sure that the only reason they "buy" them back without returning them to the S/H market is to keep prices up! Take for instance my 528c, it would shell s/h for less than $5000 or 4000euro in europe, while it can give me a true color 88mpx image and I can copy a really large painting with it! On the other hand, I can use it on my Contax on 22mpx and do fashion or studio or landscape or anything else that with any of todays back, of any resolution, I wouldn't have more than 10% improvement! I'm sure that they try to fade them out of the market to force the photographers that need multishot to invest in a new zillion dollar system (you can imagine what it would cost to replace my back and my 3 bodies, screens, finders, backs -i still use some film- 11 lenses, -4 with adapter- ext.rings, etc.), that will never justify the investment.
I won't comment on the second part of your quote, I saw on your next quote that you didn't know that they closed the system completely, so let's hope that the new owners will change that false and annoying to many customers policy. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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"a smart manufacturer is going to make what people want to buy. That makes sense, right?"
in a thread about digital backs i find that quite funny. ::)
Don't... There are many people that want a DB, but can't afford one! In fact that is (has turned to be) the subject in the thread, why do the manufacturers try to faze out the older backs from the S/H market, thus eliminating (IMO) MF completely. I think that their policy is SUICIDAL, because it's breaking newcomers from DSLRs to advance to MF, it's shrinking advanced technique and "photo-knowledge" and destroys the already existing huge base of MF photography (I mean older but very capable gear). Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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On a), I simply protest to the ....."destruction by an elephant" policy for older backs that are still worthwhile today, specially for the large frame 22mpx ones, that as you surely know, if you excuse resolution, can compete (at 50-100 iso) with todays ultra expensive backs in any other aspect of photography. I'm sure that the only reason they "buy" them back without returning them to the S/H market is to keep prices up! Take for instance my 528c, it would shell s/h for less than $5000 or 4000euro in europe, while it can give me a true color 88mpx image and I can copy a really large painting with it! On the other hand, I can use it on my Contax on 22mpx and do fashion or studio or landscape or anything else that with any of todays back, of any resolution, I wouldn't have more than 10% improvement! I'm sure that they try to fade them out of the market to force the photographers that need multishot to invest in a new zillion dollar system (you can imagine what it would cost to replace my back and my 3 bodies, screens, finders, backs -i still use some film- 11 lenses, -4 with adapter- ext.rings, etc.), that will never justify the investment.
I won't comment on the second part of your quote, I saw on your next quote that you didn't know that they closed the system completely, so let's hope that the new owners will change that false and annoying to many customers policy. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
As a mentally unbalanced person totally, I think it was the only way for the Hasselblad. And I think That this road is correct. I'm talking of course about the integrated system.
When it comes to your DB, do not sell it, it is really very good equipment. Well unless you have a lot of money. But in this case, better to donate the equipment to some students, and the poor elephant will be free: P
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As a mentally unbalanced person totally, I think it was the only way for the Hasselblad. And I think That this road is correct. I'm talking of course about the integrated system.
When it comes to your DB, do not sell it, it is really very good equipment. Well unless you have a lot of money. But in this case, better to donate the equipment to some students, and the poor elephant will be free: P
Why do you think it was the only way? and why do you agree? Please don't answer "to keep the Elephant buzzy".
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Why do you think it was the only way? and why do you agree? Please don't answer "to keep the Elephant buzzy".
In my opinion, they would no longer exist today. Previous CEO was a genius. Arranged at a time: cutting off competition from his body and the brilliant conception of the equipment which has set the direction of development of this market. As you can see all the rest also walks this path. From the user at first glance, this seems a stupid idea - closed system - but the benefits are considerable. Better integration of hardware at the level of the lens - body - DB. Hence - the equipment is easier to use, gives better quality - frontfocus and BACKFOCUS virtually non existent. (calibrated body and DB), DAC. It's really a big quantum leap. And I mean not only the quality of the image itself. When it comes to trade-in policy. Well it is not well conceived. It is not clear to me, inconsistent. In some cases, contradicts the idea of this program.
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Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax are all closed systems. Phase is in theory open but the reality is that everybody uses Phase or Leaf backs... The market for standalone digital backs will shrink. Hasselblad H1/H2 and Contax 645 backs will eventually go away. Hy6 is a question mark. For standalone digital back manufacturers that leaves long term only a very small niche market consisting of Hasselblad V and tech cameras... Given that Hasselblad already addresses those with their CFV backs it is no wonder that they discontinued the CF backs. Unfortunate but understandable.
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Graham,
When you trade in a P30+ you get about $6.5K. That same P30+ was until recently sold for about $10K. Not too bad of a margin...
Joris.
Well, depends on what you trade up to.
$13,637 - P30+ credit towards IQ180
$11,467 - P30+ credit towards IQ160
$6,817 - P30+ credit towards IQ140
$9,917 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 80
$8,057 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 56
Steve Hendrix
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Finally! ;D
I didn't find this snippy at all, and in fact I laughed my ass off!
Steve Hendrix
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In my opinion, they would no longer exist today. Previous CEO was a genius. Arranged at a time: cutting off competition from his body and the brilliant conception of the equipment which has set the direction of development of this market. As you can see all the rest also walks this path. From the user at first glance, this seems a stupid idea - closed system - but the benefits are considerable. Better integration of hardware at the level of the lens - body - DB. Hence - the equipment is easier to use, gives better quality - frontfocus and BACKFOCUS virtually non existent. (calibrated body and DB), DAC. It's really a big quantum leap. And I mean not only the quality of the image itself. When it comes to trade-in policy. Well it is not well conceived. It is not clear to me, inconsistent. In some cases, contradicts the idea of this program.
In my view a MF system is all about interchangeability and flexibility that results from such an approach, I feel that this has been the traditional value (along with image size) that gave MF the status it had until it started fading with the rise of the digital age. I clearly don't see the competition following the same path with Has, they offer the same backs for all cameras, doing the same things as their own cameras. I feel that even the V system is on a different path than the H system and that this shows confusion of company policy. I know many users of the V system that are using different maker backs on their system and most of them despise the H system. In fact I feel that their decision to stop supporting the rest of the cameras with the CFs is an unexplainable decision that can be of only harm to the company. I also feel that if Nikon will come up with the interchangeable sensor D3 replacement that is rumored, MF (starting with Has) is in real trouble. This can be avoided if they would give customers the opportunity to purchase a cheep, older S/H back ....instead of providing to the Elephant a new toy to make the poor animal happy! Regards Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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The strength of MF cameras has always been that they are part of a system - with the notable exception of the Rolleiflex TLRs. But the others - Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Contax and the later Rolleis - started with the cube that is the camera. You then had a case of lenses, finders, magazines, bellows and so forth from which you built the camera you needed for that day's particular task. The size of your case of bits was limited only by desire, need and the size of your wallet.
This concept was, and is, a brilliant one. Hasselblad were the first and most accomplished exponents of the system camera, but others soon followed. In recent years we have seen the gradual erosion and abandonment of these principles, which is why a lot of folks hang on to their old Hasselblad V-system or Contax gear. Closed digital systems and cameras (which can no longer shoot film) with only a prism finder are yet another nail in the coffin for MF in general, or at least MF as I understand it. Because very soon 35mm format DSLRs will be just as competent in terms of image quality, and the advantages which MF truly had will have been pissed away in the wind.
John
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In my view a MF system is all about interchangeability and flexibility that results from such an approach, I feel that this has been the traditional value (along with image size) that gave MF the status it had until it started fading with the rise of the digital age. I clearly don't see the competition following the same path with Has, they offer the same backs for all cameras, doing the same things as their own cameras. I feel that even the V system is on a different path than the H system and that this shows confusion of company policy. I know many users of the V system that are using different maker backs on their system and most of them despise the H system. In fact I feel that their decision to stop supporting the rest of the cameras with the CFs is an unexplainable decision that can be of only harm to the company. I also feel that if Nikon will come up with the interchangeable sensor D3 replacement that is rumored, MF (starting with Has) is in real trouble. This can be avoided if they would give customers the opportunity to purchase a cheep, older S/H back ....instead of providing to the Elephant a new toy to make the poor animal happy! Regards Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras! This, however, is a company that needs to evolve to do so - that the company must make money. Remember that this market is really small! Your allegation that the system V is not consistent with the direction of the company. I agree, but note that the system V is an icon of photography. A huge mistake was the withdrawal of lenses for this system. I think this bug will be fixed. On this camera will always be demand. As for the system H, the only mistake is the inability to use the film. As for other companies, unfortunately, even if you do not follow the same path that you're wrong. Just look at all the changes in thinking have taken place since the release HxD.
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The strength of MF cameras has always been that they are part of a system - with the notable exception of the Rolleiflex TLRs. But the others - Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Contax and the later Rolleis - started with the cube that is the camera. You then had a case of lenses, finders, magazines, bellows and so forth from which you built the camera you needed for that day's particular task. The size of your case of bits was limited only by desire, need and the size of your wallet.
This concept was, and is, a brilliant one. Hasselblad were the first and most accomplished exponents of the system camera, but others soon followed. In recent years we have seen the gradual erosion and abandonment of these principles, which is why a lot of folks hang on to their old Hasselblad V-system or Contax gear. Closed digital systems and cameras (which can no longer shoot film) with only a prism finder are yet another nail in the coffin for MF in general, or at least MF as I understand it. Because very soon 35mm format DSLRs will be just as competent in terms of image quality, and the advantages which MF truly had will have been pissed away in the wind.
John
It's always good to see that your opinion is supported by others, these others I feel are the majority, so I suggest we raise a strong voice here, come on guys, it's only a quote! let's hear from the rest of you. They may listen and sent the Elephant back to the jungle. Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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The strength of MF cameras has always been that they are part of a system - with the notable exception of the Rolleiflex TLRs. But the others - Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Contax and the later Rolleis - started with the cube that is the camera. You then had a case of lenses, finders, magazines, bellows and so forth from which you built the camera you needed for that day's particular task. The size of your case of bits was limited only by desire, need and the size of your wallet.
This concept was, and is, a brilliant one. Hasselblad were the first and most accomplished exponents of the system camera, but others soon followed. In recent years we have seen the gradual erosion and abandonment of these principles, which is why a lot of folks hang on to their old Hasselblad V-system or Contax gear. Closed digital systems and cameras (which can no longer shoot film) with only a prism finder are yet another nail in the coffin for MF in general, or at least MF as I understand it. Because very soon 35mm format DSLRs will be just as competent in terms of image quality, and the advantages which MF truly had will have been pissed away in the wind.
John
I agree! You're right. But if the blocks fit the Mamiya or Contax or hasselblad or Rollei and vice versa? I'm talking about the good old days
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I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras! This, however, is a company that needs to evolve to do so - that the company must make money. Remember that this market is really small! Your allegation that the system V is not consistent with the direction of the company. I agree, but note that the system V is an icon of photography. A huge mistake was the withdrawal of lenses for this system. I think this bug will be fixed. On this camera will always be demand. As for the system H, the only mistake is the inability to use the film. As for other companies, unfortunately, even if you do not follow the same path that you're wrong. Just look at all the changes in thinking have taken place since the release HxD.
Of course it's your opinion and it has to be respected, it's obvious that mine is different both from the consumer point of view but to the benefit of the company as well. I had a conversation with a Phase One representative a couple of years back and my impression was that they are doing very well, he mentioned that before they seek the relationship with Mamiya, they offered a lot of money to Kyocera to buy the rights of reconstructing the C645, while they had Zeiss blessing. At the end it's Kyocera that was the problem. In this dicussion he did (PH is the initials of the name) mention that they have no intention of closing the system, they only need a camera body to be able to apply future developments and evolution of DB's. I feel that if one company has change hands 3 times and another with different policy expands all the time, its evidence of which policy is the correct one. Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
P.S. I find your quotes really to the benefit of this thread, I feel we have a beneficial discussion here (thanks to the OP and the ....elephant)
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I agree! You're right. But if the blocks fit the Mamiya or Contax or hasselblad or Rollei and vice versa? I'm talking about the good old days
Maybe if the Elephant goes back to the jungle.... Tarzan will ride him again. ;) Have you notice the price for a brand new Aptus 5? I bet that in Has they will soon stop production of the CFVs, people only need the rest of the V system.. and some cheap S/H backs! Then we can be Tarzan again. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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I'm sorry but from a business standpoint it would be folly. People do not buy new cameras!
snip
Freak,
we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I won´t accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didn´t. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I don´t complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?
Cheers, Ulf
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Freak,
we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I won´t accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didn´t. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I don´t complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?
Cheers, Ulf
I guess that there are 2 approaches to the matter, the short-term and the long term and I guess that history has proved for the second. If manufacturers will approach the matter from a long-term point of view they may loose some market from instant selling but there will be (I feel) a multiple benefit from market growth! Just to rephrase, I believe that "let the best photographer win" than "help the photographer than can pay us now" is a better policy, because photographers have prove in the past that they invest when they have results from their work! What is happening now is that great photographers say ...."f..... it, it doesn't worth the investment". Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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fotomedia_gr,
you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market. If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays. It would be pure madness for them to open up their system. It would simply kill them.
Joris.
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Freak,
we would have bought new cameras but we cannot. I won´t accept a cable to my 3rd party DB, so we bought some preowned H2 bodies to keep our equipment young (not too many actuations). I would never rely on a single body, our work requires at least one backup body for instant replacement, so come on, where is that matched pair integrated system advantage? We would have bought some additional lenses, if those could be used with our H2, unfortunately they are not suitable without the digital correction, so again we didn´t. We upgraded our DBs two times since the H system was closed, we stayed with Leaf and feel happy with this decision. I doubt we would have any better results with a H2+X camera, so I don´t complain, everything is working fine for us, but the photographer who is buying new into MF today and likes a Leaf or Phase back, will he seriously consider buying a preowned body?
Where is the profit for the company, the clever business strategy?
Cheers, Ulf
Hi Ulf,
I thought that you are in a great league with Hasselblad. Nobody forbids you to have three spare body kit to your H4D. Only required to Digital Unit was electronically paired with these bodies. So it's not a problem. The more so that this body is not expensive. I see this strategy as follows: you have a body, you have the lenses. You have the opportunity to either stay with the Hasselblad because you do not want to lose what you already have. Either you sell the large loss of body and lenses and buy a PhaseOne body. And now the question is how much you're used to this body. 30% buy Phase One, 45% will go to the Hasselblad system, the rest will not know what to do, but either way will have to choose a system. If you like Phase, Leaf - and want to work on these DB that start to get used to the body P1. Hasselblad's strategy is probably to eliminate h1/h2 from the market. Why are you complaining about, buy the whole system from P1 ::)
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Well, depends on what you trade up to.
$13,637 - P30+ credit towards IQ180
$11,467 - P30+ credit towards IQ160
$6,817 - P30+ credit towards IQ140
$9,917 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 80
$8,057 - P30+ credit towards Aptus-II 56
Steve Hendrix
Steve,
The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs... Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses. Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer...
Thanks, Joris.
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Steve,
The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs... Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses. Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer...
Thanks, Joris.
Joris,
Hasselblad A trade-in system works in reverse :-) It is best to give the old 16mpix than, for example H3DII39. Assuming that I want H4D40 - I gives CFV16 or V96 - 11400Euro pay extra - also gives H3DII39 I have to pay extra 11,400 euros. New costs 14.500
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Steve,
The Phase One trade up program is very generous for the higher end backs, it is unfortunately almost worthless for the lower end of backs... Upgrading from the P30+ to a IQ140 will still cost me $15K+ whereas I can get a H4D (camera body included) for $18K which will also allow me to keep my 5 HC lenses. Given that imo the H4D is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market (already before the firmware upgrade) this is a no brainer...
Thanks, Joris.
Joris -
Phase One doesn't make low end backs. ;D
If you feel the H4D-40 is the best and most complete 40MP solution on the market then it really doesn't matter what the price is, does it? If one feels the IQ140 is a superior solution and chooses that upgrade path, as many certainly do, then I guess they just got a bargain.
Steve Hendrix
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Hi Ulf,
I thought that you are in a great league with Hasselblad. Nobody forbids you to have three spare body kit to your H4D. Only required to Digital Unit was electronically paired with these bodies. So it's not a problem. The more so that this body is not expensive. I see this strategy as follows: you have a body, you have the lenses. You have the opportunity to either stay with the Hasselblad because you do not want to lose what you already have. Either you sell the large loss of body and lenses and buy a PhaseOne body. And now the question is how much you're used to this body. 30% buy Phase One, 45% will go to the Hasselblad system, the rest will not know what to do, but either way will have to choose a system. If you like Phase, Leaf - and want to work on these DB that start to get used to the body P1. Hasselblad's strategy is probably to eliminate h1/h2 from the market. Why are you complaining about, buy the whole system from P1 ::)
Hi Design Freak,
If you reread my post you´ll probably find out that I´m not complaining. We are happy with what we´ve got and I don´t feel I´m missing something.
Hasselblad team and service has always been helpful and friendly. The H is a good working tool for us, but we also often use our DB with large format and from time to time I feel like using our old RZ and do so. I don´t know the number of units installed (I never used to sell those systems) but from my talk to dealers I feel there might be significantly less backs produced with the h-mount. If this is good for Hasselblad (long or short time view), I don´t know. Hasselblad has a great brand reputation and used to make good business with lenses and bodies for decades. They have been extremely late with the release of the h-system, probably close to death. But to get back to topic, I think it has never been easier and cheaper to get into MF, there are plenty of cameras, lenses and backs that will produce fantastic images when put in the right hands. YMMV.
Cheers, Ulf
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fotomedia_gr,
you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market. If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays. It would be pure madness for them to open up their system. It would simply kill them.
Joris.
Leica and Pentax are DSLRs not systems, the same was true with the Mamyia DSLR (sorry I can't remember the name) but this didn't force Mamiya to close their system. Hasselblad is traditionally a camera manufacturer and Imacon a DB manufacturer, when they merged it started like all the rest, open system with integrated inside products that could expand communication between Camera and back, just like P1 is doing now, it was their (false) decision to abandon the other DB manufacturers from doing backs for their camera or stop producing backs for the other cameras. Leica now controls Sinar, do you see them closing their system? They have their DSLR and they have an open system as well! Pentax is a completely different story, it seems to me that they feel that the advancement from APS-c to FF isn't worthwhile (or that they lost time to FF competition to catch up) and decided to go a step further to keep in touch with some of the pro market. Cheers Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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fotomedia_gr,
you bypass the economic reality that Phase One with two strong brands "owns" the digital back market. If Hasselblad, Leica or Pentax were to open up their system they would be reduced to merely medium format camera manufacturers and that is unfortunately a very small market space nowadays. It would be pure madness for them to open up their system. It would simply kill them.
Joris.
It's good point !!!
They could afford it if it was owned by Panasonic...
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Joris,
Hasselblad A trade-in system works in reverse :-) It is best to give the old 16mpix than, for example H3DII39. Assuming that I want H4D40 - I gives CFV16 or V96 - 11400Euro pay extra - also gives H3DII39 I have to pay extra 11,400 euros. New costs 14.500
design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...
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design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...
Even more so...., when there is no trade, there is a discount!!! which means that they steal our investment! What I mean is simple, they suggest a buying price, (say 25000) then, IF you have a trade, they judge it for, say, 6000, but if there is no trade they give you a 4-5000 discount! This is not marketing, its the policy of a PROVEN (Capitalist) CROOK! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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design_freak, the hasselblad trade-in program is imo unfortunately almost always worthless... you are better off selling on your own...
Even more so...., when there is no trade, there is a discount!!! which means that they steal our investment! What I mean is simple, they suggest a buying price, (say 25000) then, IF you have a trade, they judge it for, say, 6000, but if there is no trade they give you a 4-5000 discount! This is not marketing, its the policy of a PROVEN (Capitalist) CROOK! Regards, Theodoros
JV, Theodoros,
Gentlemen, It is true. This program does not work too well. Someone has failed again. Or such is the company policy. As I understand this program: This program is designed to cement and bind the customer with the brand. Life, however, shows that it works in the opposite way. Discouraged by the current holder of that equipment. It is encouraging for people who have equipment that is already in a sense monument. Nobody thinks about you that two years ago bought the equipment, and now he needs (or seems to) hardware currently produced. This approach to "professional" user is incomprehensible to me.
While the idea of an integrated camera is a really good move. Is the old days you could swap the blocks between systems Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax, Pentax?
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But to get back to topic, I think it has never been easier and cheaper to get into MF, there are plenty of cameras, lenses and backs that will produce fantastic images when put in the right hands. YMMV.
Cheers, Ulf
I'm very glad you've come to the same point. The most important element is the human factor. It's not the hardware takes pictures, is a man who uses it. You must also look to the manufacturer's point of view. If such professionals as you would buy a cheap used equipment, you need to ask yourself who can afford a new one. They must be very careful in order to survive in this very small market. Just be glad that the students can learn at a very good equipment, which now have better access than ever.
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I'm very glad you've come to the same point. The most important element is the human factor. It's not the hardware takes pictures, is a man who uses it. You must also look to the manufacturer's point of view. If such professionals as you would buy a cheap used equipment, you need to ask yourself who can afford a new one. They must be very careful in order to survive in this very small market. Just be glad that the students can learn at a very good equipment, which now have better access than ever.
If I was one of those students and was to buy MF from scratch, I would buy S/H, I would go for the V system, I would buy 5 S/H lenses (40, 60, 80, 120m, 180), I would buy 3 S/H film backs, a contax or mamiya with a V adapter and a P6 adapter (for the arsat 30 and the CJZ 300), and my 528c if I needed to have 4-16x, or 132 or even sinarback at 22mpx if I didn't, with different adapters for my cameras, no matter my budget! The rest of the money that I would save to buy similar on a new H system, ......I would spend on a Porsche! That would guaranty classier models on my studio and thus more success than competition and hence much more money! I bet you in a year or so, I could buy the H system (or another Porsche), ....just from profit! Maybe we all have to think that those great pictures of the past ....are still great and they were done with much lesser(?) equipment than the one described above! That is why I'm saying that their policy of vanishing useful staff from the S/H market is suicidal, this way they forbid people to get to know MF and thus shrink their own market from potential buyers! Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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If I was one of those students I would pick up a 5D2, a portrait lens, a Nikon adapter and $500 worth of antique MF Nikon F lenses, and go out and do some music videos and studio shots. Medium format has become obscenely expensive, and you can get commercial quality easily out of $3K of gear.
Edmund
If I was one of those students and was to buy MF from scratch, I would buy S/H, I would go for the V system, I would buy 5 S/H lenses (40, 60, 80, 120m, 180), I would buy 3 S/H film backs, a contax or mamiya with a V adapter and a P6 adapter (for the arsat 30 and the CJZ 300), and my 528c if I needed to have 4-16x, or 132 or even sinarback at 22mpx if I didn't, with different adapters for my cameras, no matter my budget! The rest of the money that I would save to buy similar on a new H system, ......I would spend on a Porsche! That would guaranty classier models on my studio and thus more success than competition and hence much more money! I bet you in a year or so, I could buy the H system (or another Porsche), ....just from profit! Maybe we all have to think that those great pictures of the past ....are still great and they were done with much lesser(?) equipment than the one described above! That is why I'm saying that their policy of vanishing useful staff from the S/H market is suicidal, this way they forbid people to get to know MF and thus shrink their own market from potential buyers! Regards Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Wow - a spirited debate regarding the pre-owned equipment market and illuminating with meaningful ideas...congrats!
Reading the new comments, it occurs to me that it is important to say that the elephant does not stay busy; we sell any working equipment traded in - including a recent sale of a 22MP that uses an imagebank. Why? Because this photographer now is shooting MF at a low cost of entry and will work her way up over the next few years by trading up and her equipment retains the value of a trade-in (or fair market value) should she choose to exercise that option.
This is an alternate strategy to buying new and then staying on top of advances by trading up every few years; same concept with the difference being the starting point.
I have several interested buyers for the 528 multishot - even though this system is several years old, so it is hard to say that the value is diminished (like a computer for example.)
Also, there is a minimum value to a Hasselblad (and other) MF by way of the official trade-in program; varies from $3,000 to $9,000 depending on what is being trading in and what is being acquired. See your local Hasselblad reseller for details in your area.
In some cases, the fair market value exceeds the credit for the trade-in and we can provide an alternative trade-in option to maximize the value of the equipment to the seller (a system may have a trade-in value of $5,000 but fair market is $7,000 so we can help the seller retain the extra $2,000.)
The point is that if you are a MF owner, there is:
- a path to stay current without large expenditures every couple of years,
- if you are looking to get into MF and trade-up over time, there is a healthy pre-owned market to select equipment from,
- and if you are already a MF owner, you have multiple options to trade-up (either new or used.)
I agree that the trade-up program has not been as clear from a Hasselblad message and it gives us the opportunity to present the variety of options to the unique needs of each client.
John
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Wow - a spirited debate regarding the pre-owned equipment market and illuminating with meaningful ideas...congrats!
Reading the new comments, it occurs to me that it is important to say that the elephant does not stay busy; we sell any working equipment traded in - including a recent sale of a 22MP that uses an imagebank. Why? Because this photographer now is shooting MF at a low cost of entry and will work her way up over the next few years by trading up and her equipment retains the value of a trade-in (or fair market value) should she choose to exercise that option.
This is an alternate strategy to buying new and then staying on top of advances by trading up every few years; same concept with the difference being the starting point.
I have several interested buyers for the 528 multishot - even though this system is several years old, so it is hard to say that the value is diminished (like a computer for example.)
Also, there is a minimum value to a Hasselblad (and other) MF by way of the official trade-in program; varies from $3,000 to $9,000 depending on what is being trading in and what is being acquired. See your local Hasselblad reseller for details in your area.
In some cases, the fair market value exceeds the credit for the trade-in and we can provide an alternative trade-in option to maximize the value of the equipment to the seller (a system may have a trade-in value of $5,000 but fair market is $7,000 so we can help the seller retain the extra $2,000.)
The point is that if you are a MF owner, there is:
- a path to stay current without large expenditures every couple of years,
- if you are looking to get into MF and trade-up over time, there is a healthy pre-owned market to select equipment from,
- and if you are already a MF owner, you have multiple options to trade-up (either new or used.)
I agree that the trade-up program has not been as clear from a Hasselblad message and it gives us the opportunity to present the variety of options to the unique needs of each client.
John
WOW, beautifully written. Maybe let's examine this in a concrete example. What you recommend a client who has H3D39. He wants to have H4D40. How does it look from the financial side.
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Yeah... that is probably the worst possible example and as a former HB dealer you are very well aware of this. Ask an owner of a P40+ what his upgrade options are towards an IQ140 and you will have a very similar situation. How about the upgrade price from an Imacon 132 or 96 towards a H4D60? Which is probably the other end of the spectrum.
If I would be the H3DII39 owner I would look for someone that has a H1D39/22 (or even a 96C) looking to upgrade. Change the H3DII for the H1D39/22 with some change and upgrade from there. If you have a great dealer he will help you in this area.
This route will probably be the most beneficial
Or sell the H3D39 and buy a H4D40 and try to get a discount.
Anyway, upgrading from a H3D39 towards the H4D40 remains a difficult one and not the cheapest or most cost effective. You have to have a very compelling
reason to do so. I think many will continue using the H3D39 and wait for a next generation or even a generation beyond that.
There are multiple ways to do this if you are really adamant in upgrading. If you are, don't expect to get the deal of the century.
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Yeah... that is probably the worst possible example and as a former HB dealer you are very well aware of this. Ask an owner of a P40+ what his upgrade options are towards an IQ140 and you will have a very similar situation. How about the upgrade price from an Imacon 132 or 96 towards a H4D60? Which is probably the other end of the spectrum.
If I would be the H3DII39 owner I would look for someone that has a H1D39/22 (or even a 96C) looking to upgrade. Change the H3DII for the H1D39/22 with some change and upgrade from there. If you have a great dealer he will help you in this area.
This route will probably be the most beneficial
Or sell the H3D39 and buy a H4D40 and try to get a discount.
Anyway, upgrading from a H3D39 towards the H4D40 remains a difficult one and not the cheapest or most cost effective. You have to have a very compelling
reason to do so. I think many will continue using the H3D39 and wait for a next generation or even a generation beyond that.
There are multiple ways to do this if you are really adamant in upgrading. If you are, don't expect to get the deal of the century.
As I wrote, it pays me to change only the monuments. Or go to the competition. So in a sense, this program is not considered.
The same is if I wanted to have H4D60. It pays me more to give 96c. So I have to buy a 96c. H3D39 sell or keep them. And it can be embarrassing / not convenient. This shows that this program is poorly designed. Please consider what equipment needs commercial photographer who is on top. Market forces him to have the latest equipment. On one hand, the company depends heavily on sales of new products, on the other hand there is no developed a strategy to keep that customer. It's 2 cents from my side
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If I was one of those students I would pick up a 5D2, a portrait lens, a Nikon adapter and $500 worth of antique MF Nikon F lenses, and go out and do some music videos and studio shots. Medium format has become obscenely expensive, and you can get commercial quality easily out of $3K of gear.
Edmund
+1
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what about cross platform trade-ups? do the manufacturers do deals to get you to move over to their product.
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what about cross platform trade-ups? do the manufacturers do deals to get you to move over to their product.
Yes we are currently offering the Phase One competitive trade in program. The offer is currently 1% per megapixel towards the purchase of a New Phase One Digital Back.
For example:
Hasselblad 39Mpix back to IQ180 = $43,990 - $17,156 = $26,834
Hasselblad 60Mpix back to IQ180 = $43,990 - $26,394 = $17,596
Sinar 33Mpix back to IQ160 = $36,990 - $12,207 = $24,783
Lance
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As I wrote, it pays me to change only the monuments. Or go to the competition. So in a sense, this program is not considered.
The same is if I wanted to have H4D60. It pays me more to give 96c. So I have to buy a 96c. H3D39 sell or keep them. And it can be embarrassing / not convenient. This shows that this program is poorly designed. Please consider what equipment needs commercial photographer who is on top. Market forces him to have the latest equipment. On one hand, the company depends heavily on sales of new products, on the other hand there is no developed a strategy to keep that customer. It's 2 cents from my side
It is a situation like the above upgrade from the H3D-39 to the 40 that is an excellent use case for the alternative method of locating a buyer for the H3D-39, then using those proceeds to purchase the H4D-40. Simple. Does not require complex trade-in rules.
I think it is a bit unconventional to expect any company to sell something for less than the cost to make it, so it is unproductive to desire a trade-in policy that causes a negative profit; this means not all trade-in possibilities can be addressed and remain simple.
In this example, the changes are the ISO range of 50-800 is moved up one stop to 100-1600 via the sensor difference (microlenses on the 40) and the additional technology of locking the focal plane known as TruFocus is added. Are those features worth the cost of the upgrade? For some, yes,; for others, no.
So it really comes back to the reasons for moving up from the 39 to the 40 - what are the motivators from the photographer's desire? The reason will drive the method. The key point is there is a path to get from where you are to where you want to be that is market-driven; does not rely on rules of a particular manufacturer's trade-up program because the path may/not be within that scope.
These are the same reasons why a photographer examines the best tool to compete in the market against other photographers; why one brand may be a better fit than another. For some, the technical capability of the Hasselblad and complete lens portfolio, accessories, software, and digital back on technical camera accelerate the business and artistic goals of the photographer.
Which leads to programs by Hasselblad and PhaseOne to court each other's client base for the right matching of needs versus tools, Lance has supplied the figures for his organization's competitive trade-in. A little research effort will yield similar results for those who seek it for the Hasselblad matrix.
It is not all rainbows and butterflies out there; you do need to validate what is told. Verify the information from all sources. I recommend getting your questions answered about a manufacturer's products from that manufacturer. Nothing takes the place of your first-hand experience.
So where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear? : )
John
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It is a situation like the above upgrade from the H3D-39 to the 40 that is an excellent use case for the alternative method of locating a buyer for the H3D-39, then using those proceeds to purchase the H4D-40. Simple. Does not require complex trade-in rules.
I think it is a bit unconventional to expect any company to sell something for less than the cost to make it, so it is unproductive to desire a trade-in policy that causes a negative profit; this means not all trade-in possibilities can be addressed and remain simple.
In this example, the changes are the ISO range of 50-800 is moved up one stop to 100-1600 via the sensor difference (microlenses on the 40) and the additional technology of locking the focal plane known as TruFocus is added. Are those features worth the cost of the upgrade? For some, yes,; for others, no.
So it really comes back to the reasons for moving up from the 39 to the 40 - what are the motivators from the photographer's desire? The reason will drive the method. The key point is there is a path to get from where you are to where you want to be that is market-driven; does not rely on rules of a particular manufacturer's trade-up program because the path may/not be within that scope.
These are the same reasons why a photographer examines the best tool to compete in the market against other photographers; why one brand may be a better fit than another. For some, the technical capability of the Hasselblad and complete lens portfolio, accessories, software, and digital back on technical camera accelerate the business and artistic goals of the photographer.
Which leads to programs by Hasselblad and PhaseOne to court each other's client base for the right matching of needs versus tools, Lance has supplied the figures for his organization's competitive trade-in. A little research effort will yield similar results for those who seek it for the Hasselblad matrix.
It is not all rainbows and butterflies out there; you do need to validate what is told. Verify the information from all sources. I recommend getting your questions answered about a manufacturer's products from that manufacturer. Nothing takes the place of your first-hand experience.
So where does Hasselblad sell all their traded-in gear? : )
John
This program is devised in order to keep the customer with you. But if the customer gets a better offer from P1, is not a reason to think about this? Why H4D40, because it is the best camera from the manufacturer. It is very versatile. But back to topic. Putting the holder DB 96c, on the same shelf as the holder H3D39 is at least not understandable. (The same discount, even if you buy H4D60). Summary: the poor elephant should return to his family, running the scrap can harm him. Where Hasselblad sells? Only the museum might be interested.
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+1. If they really have the same trade for 96c and Hd39 it just proves them crooks. This proves that the trade price is the actual price and that the one that trades the 96 should seriously consider what his new toy will worth in the next trade if he becomes member of a closed system. It also proves that after you bite, they blackmail you for extra profit, because now they know that you are in a path that makes it much more difficult (and costly) to jump to another maker! I will never buy from a closed system, just like I would never buy an ultra expensive DSLR. This shows that they stopped producing the adapters for the CFs, just to stop people of continuing with an open system. I bet that CFVs sales must have dropped considerably after that, because now if somebody buys a CFV, he can't sell it S/H to an owner of a different system, he has to stay with Hasselblad and suffer the blackmail. Regards Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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If I may:
Mr. Design_freak and now Mr. Fotometria, are keeping the entertainment level very high.
Great to have them on this board, innit?
Kind regards
E.
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If I may:
Mr. Design_freak and now Mr. Fotometria, are keeping the entertainment level very high.
Great to have them on this board, innit?
Kind regards
E.
At a very good start, welcome you on this forum. :) We are glad that you joined. Introduce yourself to us who you are, what you do, for whom you work. :)
With all due respect I do not see even a little entertainment here ... But I'm happy with that, in this grim reality, you see a bit of fun
Best regards,
Design Freak
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+1. If they really have the same trade for 96c and Hd39 it just proves them crooks. This proves that the trade price is the actual price and that the one that trades the 96 should seriously consider what his new toy will worth in the next trade if he becomes member of a closed system. It also proves that after you bite, they blackmail you for extra profit, because now they know that you are in a path that makes it much more difficult (and costly) to jump to another maker!
The Hasselblad trade-in program is not very useful or not useful at all but terms like crooks and blackmail are probably a bit too strong...
I will never buy from a closed system, just like I would never buy an ultra expensive DSLR.
As said "all" medum format digital is in reality closed now...
This shows that they stopped producing the adapters for the CFs, just to stop people of continuing with an open system.
I would not look for any conspiracies where there are none. Phase + Leaf own the standalone digital back market. The market share of Hasselblad and Sinar is/was insignificant. If Hasselblad could make money selling CF backs they would have stayed in that business.
I bet that CFVs sales must have dropped considerably after that, because now if somebody buys a CFV, he can't sell it S/H to an owner of a different system, he has to stay with Hasselblad and suffer the blackmail. Regards Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
Everybody who buys a CFV back perfectly knows that he can only use it on a V system and on a tech camera. The reason that Hasselblad is still in this business is because of the amount of V cameras out there and the fact that CFV backs require no cable which gives them a advantage over other backs (although other backs might have other advantages like rotating sensors, etc).
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The Hasselblad trade-in program is not very useful or not useful at all but terms like crooks and blackmail are probably a bit too strong...
As said "all" medum format digital is in reality closed now...
I would not look for any conspiracies where there are none. Phase + Leaf own the standalone digital back market. The market share of Hasselblad and Sinar is/was insignificant. If Hasselblad could make money selling CF backs they would have stayed in that business.
Everybody who buys a CFV back perfectly knows that he can only use it on a V system and on a tech camera. The reason that Hasselblad is still in this business is because of the amount of V cameras out there and the fact that CFV backs require no cable which gives them a advantage over other backs (although other backs might have other advantages like rotating sensors, etc).
You may be right on "too strong", but as I see you agree, so I felt that if I shout they may listen... As I quoted earlier their policy is Suicidal and I believe that there is none on this thread that would like them "dead" we all have to benefit from competition, imagine if P1 was left alone to the market.... that wouldn't be to a photographers interest, would it?
I already quoted earlier that its not "closed" not from P1 or Leaf or Sinar... and that I happened to have a discussion with a P1 representative that they do not intend to close it. I feel that in Hass, they changed their policy because they thought they would profit from that.... it turned to be a huge mistake, they have to return to that policy and they can start by sending the Elephant back to the jungle.
OK! but there was no reason to stop producing the CFs. Thanks for the quote, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Many come here to learn and decipher the rhetoric from fact, like a trip to the library or mayhap, local park with soapbox.
Part of my participation in the board is to present the alternative to opinion masquerading as fact; some posts are factually incorrect, some posts are left to "interpretation by the reader." On each of these counts, you will likely see my posts as the argument for the reader to measure between both.
Dear reader, it is your duty to examine the material and come to your conclusion.
*sigh* Like David Grover has stated before, it is with a tired yawn that again we must address the well-beaten horse of those who cannot accept that Hasselblad made the decision to produce empowered systems that provide a new tool for the 2011 photographer to differentiate himself/herself from the other photographers shooting with ___fill__in__the__blank__ camera system. No logic can penetrate their opinion. I accept this because I hear daily of photographers who are growing their business in this tough time and going out to get things done. Shoot. Earn income. Rinse and Repeat as necessary.
What's the proof? Lenses. Lots of them. Sharper than the ones made 20 years ago...30 years ago...40 years ago when mankind landed on the moon. Why should we be shocked that in two or three decades we can produce a better lens when in the same time period the computer has reduced from millions of dollars and several thousand feet to a few hundred dollars in the palm of our hand?
And software that can improve the performance of the lenses - not because of need - but because the technical capability exists to do so. Man did not climb to the top of Everest because he needed the view - it was incredibly difficult to do as an achievement to demonstrate what can be done, but certainly not a requirement. And the Ad Director likes it.
IMHO, Brand loyalty should not triumph personal credibility. Opinions are rightful and personal. I have not yet found any photographer who is "locked" into any solution. Don't like what you have? Sell it and buy what you want.
Review the forums. Rant from review is apparent. You will find value in a variety of brands with experts in each to provide advice here.
So dear reader, where does Hasselblad sell ... their trade-in gear? To buyers who want to shoot bigger than before, with better color than before, and with more capability than before. Don't fear change - it is the world we live in.
Be well, stay creative!
John
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So dear reader, where does Hasselblad sell ... their trade-in gear? To buyers who want to shoot bigger than before, with better color than before, and with more capability than before. Don't fear change - it is the world we live in.
Now, this may be considered as an opinion masquerading as fact! If you remember they give it to "Jumbo" instead and that's not an opinion but a fact! The whole discussion thereafter is opinions that agree or disagree with this policy and how that policy affects MF market and potential MF buyers. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Now, this may be considered as an opinion masquerading as fact! If you remember they give it to "Jumbo" instead and that's not an opinion but a fact! The whole discussion thereafter is opinions that agree or disagree with this policy and how that policy affects MF market and potential MF buyers. Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Theodoros,
If I remember correctly, Hasselblad never gave anything to Jumbo. Wasn´t it P1 who tried to prove better mechanical stability of their backs against the competitors? Are you trying to find a deeper sense in advertising? If you look at their market share today it seems that their efforts paid out well. Silly enough, though - for a piece of equipment probably everybody takes maximum care of.
Again, there are lots of backs and cameras around and it has never been easier and cheaper to enter the MF game.
Let´s stop beating that dead horse and create great images instead.
Cheers, Ulf
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Theodoros,
If I remember correctly, Hasselblad never gave anything to Jumbo. Wasn´t it P1 who tried to prove better mechanical stability of their backs against the competitors? Are you trying to find a deeper sense in advertising? If you look at their market share today it seems that their efforts paid out well. Silly enough, though - for a piece of equipment probably everybody takes maximum care of.
Again, there are lots of backs and cameras around and it has never been easier and cheaper to enter the MF game.
Let´s stop beating that dead horse and create great images instead.
Cheers, Ulf
You've misunderstood me Ulf, P1 DOES THE SAME THING, I've quoted that right from the beggining. They both do it with anything that they don't produce anymore. P1 with any non +series and lower than P25+ from the +series and Hass with everything that has an interchangeable mount. The extra problem with Hass is that they have the system closed so If I was to upgrade my very capable 528c and keep my Contax I can't do it with them and if I would change my Contax system (which I don't want) and decide to go with them, my 528c will ...disappear to ....Jumbo! Not back to a newcomer (!), now isn't that suicidal for MF makers? Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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You've misunderstood me Ulf, P1 DOES THE SAME THING, I've quoted that right from the beggining. They both do it with anything that they don't produce anymore. P1 with any non +series and lower than P25+ from the +series and Hass with everything that has an interchangeable mount. The extra problem with Hass is that they have the system closed so If I was to upgrade my very capable 528c and keep my Contax I can't do it with them and if I would change my Contax system (which I don't want) and decide to go with them, my 528c will ...disappear to ....Jumbo! Not back to a newcomer (!), now isn't that suicidal for MF makers? Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
Ok, I understand, but that is how business is done: If you decide to upgrade your system you would:
A: Keep your old equipment as backup, buy something else.
B: Sell the whole Contax kit including the back to a newcomer, buy something else.
C: Sell the back seperately and go with a competitor DB, ask for a good deal.
D: Trade the back to the new manufacturer, because he offers a better price than the market and you accept that it might be trashed, whereas it was already mentioned in this thread that dealers try to bring those trade-in backs back to life.
E: Find another solution, I´m not aware of at the moment.
I understand your complains about the broken upgrade path, but I may stand corrected, but that 528 has been an Imacon, not Hassy back? It has been a rollercoaster for MF during the last years, Hasselblad and Imacon went together, kept on developing, Contax is discontinued, Mamiya digital has vanished and the AFI/Sinar/Rollei is a question mark, Leaf was bought by Phase, what happened to Sinar and Eyelike? Leica and Pentax launched new products. Let´s hope we keep all those companys healthy, because they deliver excellent tools today. I do not (nor would probably anybody else) miss my first DB which is easily outperformed by any DSLR today.
Cheers, Ulf
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Ok, I understand, but that is how business is done: If you decide to upgrade your system you would:
A: Keep your old equipment as backup, buy something else.
B: Sell the whole Contax kit including the back to a newcomer, buy something else.
C: Sell the back seperately and go with a competitor DB, ask for a good deal.
D: Trade the back to the new manufacturer, because he offers a better price than the market and you accept that it might be trashed, whereas it was already mentioned in this thread that dealers try to bring those trade-in backs back to life.
E: Find another solution, I´m not aware of at the moment.
I understand your complains about the broken upgrade path, but I may stand corrected, but that 528 has been an Imacon, not Hassy back? It has been a rollercoaster for MF during the last years, Hasselblad and Imacon went together, kept on developing, Contax is discontinued, Mamiya digital has vanished and the AFI/Sinar/Rollei is a question mark, Leaf was bought by Phase, what happened to Sinar and Eyelike? Leica and Pentax launched new products. Let´s hope we keep all those companys healthy, because they deliver excellent tools today. I do not (nor would probably anybody else) miss my first DB which is easily outperformed by any DSLR today.
Cheers, Ulf
The way I see it is that you don't object their policy, while I do. I feel that you see their policy from a point of view were market expansion won't help MF market to grow, as opposed to me, I think that: A) If they had a "true price" for their new backs (a price that wouldn't include buying back to throw the trade to Jumbo) new backs would be considerably cheaper. B)This would lead to even cheaper market for the older equipment and a healthy S/H market that would obviously grow MF market considerably. C) More people would notice the benefits of MF from upper-class DSLRs and this could give MF its pre-decade glow back!
For all the above reasons, I call their policy Suicidal. I bet you have noticed that there are many people that think that their DSLR images can compare with say, an Aptus 54 (2006), this is their impression! They just don't know that the Aptus will make their Mickey Mouse DSLR image to look like the ....cartoon it is if compared! That's why they will never advance to MF, they consider it useless, ultra expensive and of no benefit, while a different policy from the makers would PROVE the opposite! Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
P.S.Obviously, Hass's close system policy enhances the confusion and makes things even more ...suicidal! The only thing they have to do is produce a CF version in parallel with the CFVs and an H body that will accept different brand backs, they can insist all the integration they want there after.
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fotomedia_gr, the only true open systems left are the Hy6 camera and the Sinar digital back. The longevity of both is a big question mark and their market penetration is very small to non-existent. Phase One backs in my opinion are not open at all. I cannot use my P30+ H mount back on my V system. If I want to have the mount changed I need to pay $3K and obviously can not use the back on my H1 anymore. Upgrading my back to a P40+ costs $12K and to a IQ140 costs $15K. For that price I can almost buy a new H4D-40 (body included). So please help me understand what good that so-called openness of Phase One does for me as a customer?
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The way I see it is that you don't object their policy, while I do. I feel that you see their policy from a point of view were market expansion won't help MF market to grow, as opposed to me, I think that: A) If they had a "true price" for their new backs (a price that wouldn't include buying back to throw the trade to Jumbo) new backs would be considerably cheaper. B)This would lead to even cheaper market for the older equipment and a healthy S/H market that would obviously grow MF market considerably. C) More people would notice the benefits of MF from upper-class DSLRs and this could give MF its pre-decade glow back!
For all the above reasons, I call their policy Suicidal. I bet you have noticed that there are many people that think that their DSLR images can compare with say, an Aptus 54 (2006), this is their impression! They just don't know that the Aptus will make their Mickey Mouse DSLR image to look like the ....cartoon it is if compared! That's why they will never advance to MF, they consider it useless, ultra expensive and of no benefit, while a different policy from the makers would PROVE the opposite! Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
P.S.Obviously, Hass's close system policy enhances the confusion and makes things even more ...suicidal! The only thing they have to do is produce a CF version in parallel with the CFVs and an H body that will accept different brand backs, they can insist all the integration they want there after.
Theodoros,
Please don´t get me wrong, but I don´t share your conclusion (point C). While MF always has superior quality, is the only system used in our work and is perfectly fitting our style there is a lot of work done that has to be done very fast and cheap, that won´t allow a big set, heavy lighting or just needs higher ISO to be able to work with available light. No MF pricing policy will be able to change these facts. I love MF for several reasons, but I feel it will never get back to the "pre-decade glow". It will more and more fade away, used for exceptional, special work.
There is a great demand for motion work and this is the place where we feel we have to invest right now, and we started to buy some daylights, not a RED (yet).
Cheers, Ulf
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fotomedia_gr, the only true open systems left are the Hy6 camera and the Sinar digital back. The longevity of both is a big question mark and their market penetration is very small to non-existent. Phase One backs in my opinion are not open at all. I cannot use my P30+ H mount back on my V system. If I want to have the mount changed I need to pay $3K and obviously can not use the back on my H1 anymore. Upgrading my back to a P40+ costs $12K and to a IQ140 costs $15K. For that price I can almost buy a new H4D-40 (body included). So please help me understand what good that so-called openness of Phase One does for me as a customer?
Open system is a different thing to interchangeable adapters. The rest.... has been quoted previously. Regards, Theodoros
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Theodoros,
Please don´t get me wrong, but I don´t share your conclusion (point C). While MF always has superior quality, is the only system used in our work and is perfectly fitting our style there is a lot of work done that has to be done very fast and cheap, that won´t allow a big set, heavy lighting or just needs higher ISO to be able to work with available light. No MF pricing policy will be able to change these facts. I love MF for several reasons, but I feel it will never get back to the "pre-decade glow". It will more and more fade away, used for exceptional, special work.
There is a great demand for motion work and this is the place where we feel we have to invest right now, and we started to buy some daylights, not a RED (yet).
Cheers, Ulf
I never took you wrong Ulf, its the opposite, I feel we have a very creative discussion here. I noticed your different approach, I just ..hope...... and perhaps I am a bit afraid of Elephants..... due to their size of course! ;) Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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I never took you wrong Ulf, its the opposite, I feel we have a very creative discussion here. I noticed your different approach, I just ..hope...... and perhaps I am a bit afraid of Elephants..... due to their size of course! ;) Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
Nothing wrong with a little respect for these animals...has been a great experience for us though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz7YJ18qE6Q
Now with MF I fear it might develop a bit like in music reproduction. For decades people worked hard to make the best possible recording, turntables, amps and speakers, what is like today? People listen to easy accessable crappy recordings that have been compressed to MP3. I remember when that first popped up I could not believe this would ever get noticeable market share. How wrong have I been!! Still some excellent recordings and playback systems in the hands of some enthusiasts, but niche products for a few artists and some specialised companies. You can decide to enjoy the MF quality, but you´ll never change the market direction backwards. Somehow we´ll have to adapt to this system to continue to earn our living. And this is no complain, technical evolution has been extremly thrilling for me, we can choose from so many excellent tools (cameras, backs, lighting), actually better than ever.
Cheers, Ulf
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Nothing wrong with a little respect for these animals...has been a great experience for us though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz7YJ18qE6Q
Now with MF I fear it might develop a bit like in music reproduction. For decades people worked hard to make the best possible recording, turntables, amps and speakers, what is like today? People listen to easy accessable crappy recordings that have been compressed to MP3. I remember when that first popped up I could not believe this would ever get noticeable market share. How wrong have I been!! Still some excellent recordings and playback systems in the hands of some enthusiasts, but niche products for a few artists and some specialised companies. You can decide to enjoy the MF quality, but you´ll never change the market direction backwards. Somehow we´ll have to adapt to this system to continue to earn our living. And this is no complain, technical evolution has been extremly thrilling for me, we can choose from so many excellent tools (cameras, backs, lighting), actually better than ever.
Cheers, Ulf
Are you trying to change the OP subject of the thread Ulf? Or is it that we have to accept their policies without discussing it? I'm sure nobody here is trying to change "marketing direction backwards". I am also sure there was no disrespect from me to the Elephants! So.. where Hass or P1 or anybody else..., sell their trade in gear? And if I may add, where do they dispose their garbage? I am mainly interested for the ones from the parking where they keep the Elephant! Cheers Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
P.S. To my view MP-3 only replaced crappy walkmans, not home stereo systems. On the other hand mp-3 maybe considered as a method to LISTEN to the ART of music, while a camera is a tool to PRODUCE the ART of photography, It's more like a guitar or violin not a crappy mp-3.