Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Alexandra M on August 25, 2011, 12:40:46 am
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So, I purchased an Epson 7900 in May of 2010 . It worked BEAUTIFULLY for 13 months, and I was in love with the prints that came out!
This July, however, the LLK channel got clogged, and no amount of cleaning (or power cleaning) would help (still printing the same clogged pattern, consistently only in LLK section - other inks are fine). Along with the clogging came horizontal gray bending (now I have gray lines on my prints), which I am sure is caused by the clogging problem.
I read this forum a lot, and researched the heck out of this clogging and banding problem, and tried just about all the possible solutions in the service manual - to no avail. I am also noticing that this is a VERY common problem with 7900s during their first, second, third year of life.
Of course, the printer by now is out of warranty. So I started calling Epson service centers to find out the costs of repair. I live in Chicago, and was expecting the quote to be maybe $500 – $700 on the high end - but boy, was I NOT prepared for the astronomical numbers they gave me! Turns out, the closest service center is 20-30 miles outside of the city! Over the phone, a rep (who was brief and not very friendly) concluded that a print head replacement was necessary, which alone costs $1300!! What??! Then, a service call would consist of a $100 travel fee, plus a 3-4 hour job at $175 / per hour. And then maybe, just maybe the problem will be fixed. Or not. That's close to $2000 repair without any guarantee whatsoever that I'll end up with a fully working printer! All this for just ONE color not working! ...Gulp...what?!! what???!!!!!!
In hindsight, of course, realize that I should have purchased a warranty extension, which is also pricey, by the way, at $750 per year. But I didn't. Because I thought I had a quality working machine. Which is not supposed to break down after a mere 13 months!!
So my bigger question is (well, make that several questions): WHY are Epsons so darn fragile? Are they just DESIGNED to break? And why does Epson 7900 business model demand ASTRONOMICAL repairs for a minor problem, that is nearly just as expensive as the machine itself? And why does Epson community seem to just accept this as a fact of life? (or do they?)
In the meantime, my very first ever large format printer, the 24" HP DesignJet 130 (now serving as a back-up printer), is a little work horse, and has been plugging along since 2002. Yes, it is not as versatile or fast as Epson, but it makes quality prints, and has not given me a single problem in all of 9 years! (except for seven or eight failed print heads, which are super easy to replace and cost about $35 a piece). So I know technology CAN be durable, and it is up to the manufacturer to focus on making good equipment or to just be in business of selling paper and ink (and I think, Epson chooses the latter).
As for me - no thanks, Epson 7900, I am not spending that much dough just for the possibility of bringing you back to normal. I will go back to printing on my 9 yr-old HP, then save my money, and buy me Canon or a new HP printer. I no longer like you, Epson. You are a huge disappointment. Just remember, that by selling me a flimsy, sensitive, and expensive-to-fix machine you have lost my future paper and ink business as well.
I'm afraid to ask...but anyone has input on this?
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Did you try speaking to Epson?
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Oh, sure! Emailed Epson tech support - no reply. Then called Epson. Their answer is: "yep, looks like you're out of warranty! We'll have our service company (Decision One, I think?) call you back with a service quote". And that was THAT.
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Depending on which country you're in I'd be inclined to speak to a consumer body who might approach the company.
In Australia it's often assumed that 13 months is very like 12 months and the duty of expectation is that the company would honour the agreement.
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Sadly, I have come to the same conclusion. My next printer will not be an Epson. There primary goal is head cleanings and not printing. I agree with Blinder, continue calling Epson or direct them to this forum and maybe someone will advocate on your behalf.
Paul
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Thanks... sigh....
I'm in U.S. (Chicago); not sure if there is a consumer body, everyone seems to be fighting for themselves when it comes down to these issues. Even Epson's website is so NOT user friendly! (information is hard to find, and they don't seem to have a user forum, something that HP has and which came in very handy when learning about my much older HP printer.) Perhaps the only answer is to call Epson back and argue, which I will try to do; but doubt anything will come of that.
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I had a similar experience with an Epson 4000 about 3 years ago, also in Chicago. Epson nationally was no help, I took it out to Decision One, got the full song and dance, and was really a bit upset as well.
At the end of the day, they worked with Epson, tried repairs, etc., and for about $600 got a new 4000 for me, very nicely. I don't know if you'll have the same experience, but once working with Decision One, it seemed in an odd way to work out reasonably.... and happily.
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Just got off the phone with Epson tech support, plead my case - and got nothing. Asked - aren't you interested in keeping me as a customer since I spend $100+ a week on paper and ink alone? Still got nothing. Asked him to maybe diagnose the problem a little better, since he is Epson tech support after all - maybe the issue isn't a print head, maybe it is swiper/pump/cap/whatever. Still got nothing. His only answer was "Sorry, if you're out of warranty, it will be a billable job. Call a service support center." That is ALL I got from Epson. They're useless. Calling Decision One later, will report on how that goes.
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I'm afraid to ask...but anyone has input on this?
I suggest you write a polite letter to Epson detailing the problem and history of other issues and see what happens. My 7900 died with a similar issue and was swapped, even though out of warranty. Not saying that Epson will do the same wherever you are, but these products have been out long enough for the company to have a fair idea of what the issues are. Nothing is perfect. Though as pointed out by first level tech support you contacted they are under no obligation to do so, the company does stand by their products and reputation as the leading brand of fine art printers and may decide to act out of goodwill. Agitating on internet forums isn't the way to go about it.
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Not sure if I'm "agitating on internet forums", Gromit - just listing what happened to me, and my Epson 7900 experience. Am I upset, irritated, "sticker shocked"? Sure!! As anyone would be. But I thought this forum was as much about sharing a negative issue as it is about describing a positive one. After all, we learn from each other's experience, no? And because of YOUR and other members' replies I choose to pursue the problem - so thank you, and I am glad I made the original forum post.
You're right, Epson tech support doesn't owe me anything. Am I polite and thankful when speaking with them? Absolutely! But I was under impression, since they are called "tech support", they would at least be willing to discuss the details of the problem with me. They chose not to. Ok.
Moving on then. Waiting on a service rep to call me back from Decision One. Will report on how that goes.
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Firstly, there's three leading brands of this class of printer: secondly, gromit, he's every right to relay experiences as he's done. (or "she" if it be so).
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The Wide format aqueous inkjet printers (at least up to the 44 inch width) from the big "three" vendors all seem to exhibit a perverse distortion of the "Gillette Razor blade" business model. Any out of warranty repairs can quickly overshadow the purchase of another unit, especially if the break down occurs when you will also soon need another full set of cartridges. In the razor blade model, one simply threw away a small piece of plastic when buying a new set of blades. Seems a shame to consign a huge 44 inch machine to the junkyard when it's time to buy a new set of inks or need a head replacement, but the economics have essentially gotten to this point of absurdity. I recently purchased a new 44 inch Canon iPF 8300 which comes with a full set of 330 ml ink tanks (about $1800 replacement value) for $2200 plus free shipping. The dealer threw in a "free" IPad 2 into the deal as well. Meanwhile, I had a perfectly viable 8100 in my studio, but it needed a full set of inks (it still does). In other words, for all practical purposes I bought a set of inks and got a free printer. When asked if I wanted the extended warranty (about $1200) on the new machine, I laughed. I said the economics dictated that my "warranty" should simply be the purchase of a second unit. Use the second set of inks in the first unit, and leave the second unit sitting as a "spare" in my garage! It would cost less than the warranty that they wanted to sell me.
I feel your pain!
cheers,
Mark
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So, the printer tech called me back (from Decision One) and I am not sure if I'm comforted by my options. The gist of what he said was: "Well, I asked other guys around about your color clog problem and it could be the swiper, or the pump cap, or a print head issue. If you want, I can come over and clean your swiper, and if that doesn't solve it, we can go from there. Then I can come back and bring other parts".
I have him scheduled to come over a clean the swiper in the end of the week - which would be $175 - 1 hour job, plus $100 travel fee. I am suspicious, however, that it will not do anything (with $275 down the drain) and we will have to schedule another visit when he actually tries to replace parts (with a much, much higher bill). Also, I wonder if him having to "ask other guys about your clogging issue" indicates that he is not that experienced with working with Epson 7900s.
Have a couple of days to decide if I want to cancel his appointment and forget Epsons completely (and just buy a brand new NON-Epson printer), or if I want to take a chance on him. Not an encouraging situation. What to do, what to do.....
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Other ideas...
First try a pair cleaning if you haven't. Next run a "super clean" cycle. If you haven't tried either, it may help. Run a nozzle test pattern before each cleaning technique and then after you are done and see if that does the job.
I can tell you from experience that my old Epson 4000 needs about 6-10 cleanings after sitting a couple of months to get the head cleared and running like a charm. Sometimes, it's a matter of running an "Italian Tune-up" and simply run several cleaning cycles.
Another idea is to take a paper towel soaked in water and very damp, not dripping, and stick it under the head overnight to simply get it moist, then pull the paper towel and run a check. This seemed to work on the older (4000, 7600, 9600 and I think the x800 printers). Not sure if it would work with your 7900, but it may be worth a try.
Good luck in whichever approach you try!
Of course your results may vary...
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Mark,
Who did you buy the 8300 from? I remember there was a company giving away a free IPAD last year
Gary
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I'm biting the bullet and having DecisionOne come out to repair my 9900. I've talked to several authorized Epson dealers over the past couple days. All have said that the 9900 machine has the best overall output of any pigment-based printer in the market. All of the dealers commented that the 9900 is a machine that is prone to numerous problems that are well known to Epson. For instance, right now my 9900 doesn't "see" the yellow cartridge until I remove another cartridge. It doesn't matter whether the other cartridge is from the left or the right bay. Then, once I reinstall the cartridge that I pulled out, the Epson fails to see the yellow cartridge. This problem first surfaced when the printer was only a couple months out of warranty. I believe the problem started when I first replaced the original 110 ml orange cartridge with a 350 ml orange cartridge. I battled it out with Epson and they agreed to send me a replacement yellow cartridge. Of course, that did not solve the problem. I got a quote from DecisionOne for $1800 to fix the problem. Before agreeing to that, I spent the better part of a morning cleaning the chip contacts on all of the cartridges in the left bay. I cleaned off the gold-plated pins in the bay that make contact with the chips that are at the top of the carts. Miraculously, this worked. But, whenever I've had to change out a cartridge from the left bay, the problem with the Epson not "seeing" the yellow cartridge came back. I've been able to coax the 9900 to "see" the yellow by removing the yellow cart and going over the contacts with a white eraser. This workaround saved me the dreaded service call--until this Monday. I spent over four hours trying to get the Epson to read the yellow cartridge. To no avail, I contacted Epson. I spoke to three different techs and one supervisor. They offered to send me a new yellow cartridge. I declined, because I have four spent yellow cartridges that I have tested, and the Epson refuses tor "read" any of them. So, I have scheduled DecisionOne to come out. Now they are quoting $275 for the service call that includes a minimum of one hour labor. In addition ordered $800 dollars of parts from Epson for the repair.
Every dealer that I have spoken to has said that the 9900 is wrought with problems. It is an expensive machine to fix. They all recommend buying the extended warranty. The 9800 was the best machine Epson produced from a reliability and maintenance standpoint. Although its output gamma is smaller, it is a much more robust machine. I wish I still had my 9800. Unfortunately, it got zapped by lightning and had to be replaced. The 9900 produces beautiful ouotput, but I think Epson over designed it and released it to the market before all of its technical idiosyncracies were properly vetted. Epson does not cut any slack on repiar costs once their machines are out of warranty. Pity, I've purchased four Epson wide format machines over the past five years. I spend thousands of dollars a year on Epson media.
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Alexandra,
I'm sorry, but any repair person that says "they need to change one part after another to see which one is at fault" should not be trusted.
There are specific diagnostic measures that should be performed that will indicate which part or parts are faulty.
This used to be a fairly common pratice in Auto repair years ago before computer diagnostics, and a sure sign of incompetance, or simply a lack of experience, and can be very costly to the customer but very profitable to the "repairman".!
Please check these people out read allthey have to say about clogs and maintainance from the left hand menues on the page. buy some cleaning solution first and see if it works before you invest that kind of money.
Sorry,but I would not use plain water and paper towels that can introduce more fibers on the head.
http://americaninkjetsystems.com/
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Alexandra,
You've had many replies to your initial post and many have expressed a degree of disappointment or disillusionment with Epson and how they are treating the x900 series printers. Before I took ownership of my 9900 I had already started a log for potential issues, based on information gleaned from this and other forums. I will admit that the log entries grew pretty quickly within the first 5 months, mostly clogging issues of course. The LLK is used in practically every print you produce and is likely to be the cart that will exhibit the most obvious problems. My first service call was at about the 6 month point and there were at least three more after that. Two were covered under the initial warranty and consisted of a new pump/cap assembly and an attempt to replace the print head. The new head was defective and the original one was reinstalled. As the warranty was about to expire I bit the bullet(first time ever) and extended it for one year, with an option for another year when this one is finished. The day that I extended the warranty I had another service call and the head was replaced. All tolled, the pump/cap station has been replaced twice. The second time there were parts broken off when the tech opened the box it was shipped in, so he had to reorder and make another call just for that. Since I extended the warranty I've had one call and the printer has been working well since. Here in Canada the warranty extension cost almost $1300, so I think you're doing well at $750, albeit, an expense you weren't counting on. I look at it as an insurance policy and will be extending it in the future if possible. I know this is not what you want to hear now, and I hope you have some GOOD luck with Decision One. I get dealer net pricing on all Epson products, so obviously I'll be sticking with them. That, and the fact that the printers produce a superior product which my customers require and appreciate. In my opinion the warranty extension is a small price to pay for peace of mind, although I'm sure there are those who would disagree that it should be necessary.
Gary
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Thank you ALL for your replies. And to all who experience similar issues / clogging / defects with Epson x900 series, thanks for sharing stories.
Today I went to my last resort as far as cleaning cycles go (after unsuccessfully trying regular, paired, and power cleaning for weeks) - went with "super strong cleaning" in service mode. Made absolutely no difference in now almost 100% clogged LLK. (I think "super strong cleaning" wasted about 10% of each ink cartridge.)
Davidh202, I'm afraid you are probably right about this repair guy. I'll call him back and ask some more specific questions, but in the end will probably cancel the appointment (unless he suddenly surprises me with wealth of knowledge). Perhaps I will also call Decision One back and ask to speak with someone else in the area.
I'm willing to try cleaning solution (heck, at this point, as more and more I am inclined to throw the printer out the window, I would try anything! The printer is not under warranty and I have nothing to lose). The problem is, I wouldn't even know how to GET to the print head of an Epson 7900. I suspect that Epson 7900 is purposely designed so a regular user can NOT access the print head easily. I am pretty technically inept when it comes to electronic equipment repairs. Maybe Americaninjetsystems will be willing to explain how to use a cleaning solution on an Epson 7900. I'll give them a call too.
The fun continues...
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Alexandra,
I can appreciate your frustration, so far my 7900 is fine (knocks on wood).I am also abbout to hit the 13 month mark ::)
The instructions for moving the head to get at the capping station are in the manual for the 7900 available on their site in that same Maintainance Tab Pull down menu,on the left of the page.I was a camera repair tech in another lifetime and my mentor taught me to start with the most simple inexpensive and obvious fix first.That would be trying to soften and clean the LLK channel first. Once you have the cleaning fluid applied, let the head sit for a day or so.I am sure they will give you help on the phone.Read their testimonials.I would complain to Epson and see if you can't get a replacement Cart for all the trouble you've experienced Remember you can catch more flies with honey be nice on the phone and explain your utter frustration.
The directions to release the Carriage (print head assembly) are on page 388 of the manual.Once the carriage is released you can physically move the head assembly (carriage), to the left of the machine to get at the capping station to apply cleaner to the pads. Follow their directions on how much to use.
I would strongly suggest reading all their material available in that section on maintainance, clogs, and cleaning including the manual, they make much sense.At this point it is possible your LLK channel is starved for ink rather than clooged, (explained in the manual I believe), but I would still attempt a try with the cleaning solution before resorting to further expense.
I have no affiliation but so far they are the most informative source I have found.
Question.. do you shut off the printer and allow the head to park when you'r done printing?
I have also switched all the nozzle checks and cleanings to Auto and have way fewer problems than I did in the begining. ;)
Good Luck. Please let us know the final outcome.
David
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I suspect that Epson 7900 is purposely designed so a regular user can NOT access the print head easily.
No...the mechanical design has everything to do with the delivery of a fine droplet at a precise location on the paper. That is hard enough...I seriously doubt Epson would intentionally design the system to frustrate users who want to work on their machines. Do your think Epson is out to get you?
I understand your frustration...the Epson pro line of printers are just that, printers designed for professionals. As such it take professional repair serves to fix things in the event something goes down. If the head is irrevocably impaired, the only solution is to have the head replaced. Yes, the head SHOULD last a lot longer than it did. I've not heard many stories about head failures on the x900 series. The fact that the head failed just after your warrantee is unfortunate as is the fact you didn't get an extended warrantee. It puts you in the position of either fixing the thing and spending more money or not. But I really don't think it will help your cause to expound on a variety of conspiracy theories. If anything it'll just get you all worked up but resolve nothing for you.
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It's the $175.00 an hour that gets me. Typical service calls are normally triple the technicians salary. (At least in my part of the woods.)
So if the guy makes $40.00 an hour, an hourly service rate of $120 would be more in line. And that's plenty high! But $175?
I just paid $65.00 an hour to have my motor replaced on my SCMI sliding table saw. I just cringed when I wrote that check. Maybe I should just thank my lucky stars.
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Out of curiosity, is the entire LLK channel gone, or are there nozzles which still work (on a nozzle check, is everything gone in LLK, or are some of the lines printing)?
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Yes it hurts to have to shell out $ but as a pro in business you need to be factoring into what you charge for your services maintainance, repair, and replacement costs on any equipment,on top of your regular overhead.
What is upsetting me is the total lack of professionalism these "repair" people are exhibiting by saying they don't know what the cause could be and simply start the process of replacing one part after another until they hit the right one .
Cumon people, these machines have been out for three years now and the primary complaint is clogging and channel dropout and there are only a few parts related to that. If that many machines have proven defective then it should be well understood where the faults are by now and If properly diagnosed there should be no question as to which are at fault.There is no excuse for a properly trained and experienced repair person to be guessing, especially with the supposed bad track record the 7900 and 9900 have.
These people are either taking advantage of the consumers ignorance or downright ripping Epson off if they are being reimbursed for warrantee work under contracts.
The other side of the coin is all the people who never read instructions or try and circumvent the recommended proper operation of their equipment then blame the manufacturer because it too common these days for people to never own up to doing something wrong and blame someone else! There is too much total lack of accountability in our society today!
I've said my peace
David
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John,
Alexandra said it is now mostly gone.
My educated guess is ink starvation to the LLK head itself or completely blocked up nozzels in the LLK channel.
I don't think the dampers would have clogged this soon.
There comes a point where doing too many cleaning becomes counterproductive according to the manual.
she may just need to print a bunch of gray gradients until ink is flowing again.
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My friend bought a brand new 9900 and it immediately starting having the ink starvation issues. It went on for about a month. The Epson tech was very hard working but he too spent days and days replacing this part and that head and this ink cart and so on until they finally fixed it. He went through hell, but he loves the output now. Other people never have these issues at all it seems.
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A really good technician is a treasure. I've met technicians who are brilliant at diagnosis and repair, and I always do my best to keep in touch with them. If you can find such a person, their expertise is invaluable.
Unfortunately, a lot of technicians have limited skills, and don't understand just how little they really know. When one of them starts to fool around with a moderately complex device, the chances are high that it will end up in worse shape then when it left the factory. That's why I always do everything I can as an end-user before calling in a technician, even for something that's still under warranty. I'll put up with minor deficiencies in a product, rather than taking a chance with warranty "repair".
As David says, running cleaning cycles isn't always a great idea, because firing all of the nozzles in a channel can spit out more ink than the ink delivery system can supply to the head (but maybe not in this case, if most of the nozzles are clogged).
I think that patience can sometimes accomplish what a service visit can't. A service technician can't afford to sit around for hours, wondering whether a gentle soaking would clear up a clog. Depending on your production schedule, you might not be able to either - but if you can, I'd be inclined to take things slowly. If you have the luxury of time, you could consider overnight exposure to distilled water or a cleaning solution, followed by a pair clean, followed by printing a dozen sheets of paper that are mostly the missing color, followed by a rest. Repeat daily until you run out of patience, or the problem clears up.
As a user, you can spend more time thinking about a problem than a service technician is likely to. You can peer at the capping station with a flashlight, and see if there's anything different about just one color. You can look back at your saved stack of dated nozzle checks, and see if there's a pattern to your clogs. You can try to correlate problems with things you've done to change the machine environment, like changing an ink cart.
Importantly, you can make the service technician sit down and talk to you before you allow him or her to touch the machine - and if you don't like what you hear, don't be shy about sending that person back with instructions to return with someone who is more knowledgeable about your machine. If the field office has several technicians, it's most likely that they will start by sending you someone who isn't in huge demand - and the best technicians will always be in demand.
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Really, you know, this is all quite ridiculous if what I am reading reflects the real-life experience of high-end Epson users. If you have just paid several thousand dollars (or pounds, or whatever) for a professional grade printer, then it should just work. And if it doesn't work properly, then the supplier or manufacturer should sort it out promptly - for free if it's under warranty, or for a reasonable charge if not. In the office where I worked we had a series of high-end lasers from HP and others, and they got hammered every day of the week by 40 users. If they did go wrong (which was not often) they got sorted pronto at a very reasonable cost.
Hell's teeth, my little Epson 2400 has run for five years now and I just put paper and ink in it. I've had the rare clog, which soon cleans up. Once I had a bad magenta cart, which just died. Otherwise, it works. And it cost four hundred quid.
John
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Whoa, lots of replies! Thank you again for all your suggestions. I agree, this is ridiculous - the $175 / hr + travel + parts fee to "maybe" repair the problem. The common, well documented (on here) record of these types problems with Epson X900 series is also very worrisome.
Schewe - no, I don't think Epson is "out to get me". But I do think Epson is mostly out to sell me ink and paper :). I also know that on certain other types of professional printing equipment the print heads are designed to be easily replaced by the user without a prohibitive cost. And without a professional repair service. That is where I was coming from when I made the statement.
I have canceled my service call with the printer repair man, and will explore some of the options suggested here.
Funny, the gray banding was gone when I was printing yesterday. Perhaps that is somehow related to the "super strong cleaning cycle" in service mode that I also performed yesterday. Banding problem overall seems to come and go. When it is gone, the prints look *almost* normal (although I know that the LLK color is still pretty much gone). When the banding is present - well, the prints go in the trash :)
Davidh202 - yes, I do shut off the printer when I am not using it. I tend to use it for about 3-6 hours a week (give or take) and at all other times it is turned off.
JohnHeerema, over the past 6 weeks or so I have been printing out nozzle patterns and the amount of lines in the LLK section has gradually declined (with all other inks being fine). At the beginning, when I first discovered the problem, some of the top and some of the bottom lines were missing from the LLK pattern, with the middle section (amounting to about 60%) still being there. It has been very consistent and gradually, the number of lines have been disappearing from top and bottom, with less and less showing in the middle section. Now I think I have about 2-3 lines showing (which amount to, what, 5-10% maybe?) so most of the LLK section is now consistently gone.
Not sure if I performed too many cleaning cycles (I figured out pretty early that cleaning and power cleaning would not resolve the problem
SO.... I will be trying some of the "user solutions" and will certainly post an update on the results!
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The fact that you leave your printer turned off most of the time is probably not a good idea and sends a warning sign to me.
As has been stated here by someone earlier, these machines need to have something going through the lines and heads as much as possible. Most of these modern printers are designed to do occasional head checks and nozzle cleans automatically. There is a reason for that and also a reason why people who do a lot of work daily have less problems.
Considering that you are only having an issue with one channel, and it's not jumping around to other channels when you do power cleans is a very good sign and suggests it may not be one of those pressure failure situations, maybe.
It could very well be just unmixed pigments in the light gray channel. I would say again, turn off the printer, take out the light gray cart and gently shake it for a couple of minutes, then put back in and print a large gray scale that comprises the light gray values. This will push out bad ink and replace it with the new remixed ink from the ink cart. I've seen this situation happen with various printers over many years. Sometimes just letting the printer sit like that is the culprit. This is a lot easier to accomplish than calling a repair person to evaluate it all.
j
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Hmmm... Ok, Deanwork. Will do the light gray scale too (which I actually did a month in the beginning of the clogging problem and the grays printed out fine. But the clog was still showing!).
I wonder though, what's the overall consensus on for how long the machine should be left turned on during the non-printing hours? ...Because I remember reading the opposite on these forums when I purchased this thing. The suggestion - back then - was that Epson 7900 should be OFF when not printing. If that's not the case, should the power on the printer be ON at ALL times?
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Schewe - no, I don't think Epson is "out to get me". But I do think Epson is mostly out to sell me ink and paper :). I also know that on certain other types of professional printing equipment the print heads are designed to be easily replaced by the user without a prohibitive cost. And without a professional repair service. That is where I was coming from when I made the statement.
Well, it was you that bought into the Epson system which uses a head design that is not a user installable replacement part. HP & Canon use a head design that swaps out clogged nozzles for new nozzles up to the point where the head needs to be replaced. It's a fundamental difference in the underlying system design. The Epson head design with the micro-piezo heads of the Epson design are rather exotic and not something that is easy to swap out. Yes, they can clog and if the clog is unrecoverable during cleaning, it's a major repair. Nature of the beast...
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Dean,
My question to Alexandra was more in line with trying to find out if she turns the machine off so that the head parks on the capping station,rather than leaving it on between daily or weekly use.
From my readings on a few forums too many people are either misguided, or think that by leaving the printer turned on, they are saving some ink that is used when the machines go into the startup routine.
These machines need to be turned off between use so that the head parks on the capping station to help keep the ink in the head (nozzles) moist.
Yes, I would agree that constant daily use is actually better than periods of days of idle time.
David
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So today I did the test of printing out blocks of light gray gradients - did several runs of those on about 58" of paper total, with nozzle check test patterns in between. Switched between 2 LLK cartridges just to be completely sure that it is not a cartridge issue.
Unfortunately the experiment did not help. They all printed out with same consistent banding. Interestingly though, the light gray color never fully dropped out on these test prints - the banding consists of thin while lines with frequency of about 1/8", with most of the gray color being visible. Nozzle check patterns, though, still show the same exact clog as before in the LLK section - only 2 lines in the center are showing with the rest of the LLK area missing.
...Will be trying the head soak / cleaning solution next.
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Alexandra, if you do get a tech in at some point, ask him/her to check the damper on the problem channel. A pinhole in the damper (or a poor seal) could be the source of your problem (if you're lucky).
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For the "thin banding lines" sometimes you need to switch off bidirectional (high speed printing), in the drivers -print quality- quality options dialogue box and I also suggest doing a directional and bi directional head alignment proceedure just to be sure it isn't that playing a role since you have done so much messing around with nozzle cleanings.
If you intend to order the cleaning solution from AIS do it on the phone and pick their brains as much as possible ;-)
Again,good luck!
David
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Thanks! I actually did both of those tasks (high speed printing turn off / on and head alignment) a couple of weeks ago since that was recommended in the manual.
So the "picking brains" of the AIS comes next! :)
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You could try a few SSCLs, however i doubt this will work because i don't think this is a fault of the head.
it seems more like a damper failing to supply ink. it could be one of the filters is blocked/split. if so it's a very easy fix if you can get the damper, you wouldn't even have to remove the head.
other than not being the head there might be a air leak in the LLK line somewhere. have you tried another cart?
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After reading this thread it clear this is the exact issue I'm facing with a 2 year old Epson 7900... :o How did this issue get resolved? Did you leverage the AIS cleaning fluids and expertise? Did the grey scale prints help to eliminate the clogged LLK channel? Or... Did you contact Decision One and pay the out of warranty repair costs for an on-site technician?
Jeff
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Jeff,
It is quite unfortunate that many of these cries for help are never followed through to find out whether or not the issue was resolved and how , if it indeed was!
This happens way too often on forums, and really gets my goat since it could be a valuable learning experience for all.
That's not saying that all similar issues are a result of the same root cause,but it would sure be a benefit in helping the process of elimination!!
David
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Thanks David!
I talked to Scott today at American Injet Systems and he also confirmed a growing problem with the LLK channel and users with the Epson 7900... It may just have something to do with the LLK ink formula that causes the print head to fail. But without extensive scientific research we cannot prove this claim at this juncture. I've also ordered the CLF007P and CLF007P+ Inkjet Nano Cleaning fluids for all types of water based pigment inkjet inks to apply on the capping station and rule out a clogged channel.
However, Scott and I both agree the only real way to ultimately solve the issue is to engage Decision One and replace the print head and recalibrate the printer. What I find ironic with the entire experience is the lack of professionalism and support from Epson for a very well-known issue within the forum communities. Perhaps it is time to shed more light on the subject matter with Epson's leadership team? Who knows maybe they will turn things around and make things right with the consumers? Time, money and more time will only tell.
If anyone else out there is experiencing similar issues with the LLK channel on an Epson 7900/9900, I would certainly appreciate a response. Collectively our voices can carry and be heard up the corporate ladder. I'm for one not willing to invest over $3500 in a professional grade printer only to be told two years later (with less than 108 prints using the second set of 350ml inks) to spend another $2800 in labor, parts and repairs to correct a known issue!
It's time to raise our voices, document the issues and pursue Epson with the vigor of this community.
>:( >:( >:(
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Hi everyone!
Jeverton, I am sorry that I did not reply to you right away. Somehow this Luminous Landscape notification with your "topic reply" got trapped in my junk mail, and I just noticed it today.
Here is my update on the Epson 7900 LLK ink clog issue: sadly, there are NO updates. Nothing, still, have resolved this ink clog problem. Nothing. And ZERO support, still, has been offered by Epson to me so far.
I have ordered a solution from American Inkjet Systems. I have, too, had a lengthy conversation with Scott there about the LLK ink clog problem. Just like you, Jeverton, I was told by Scott that it is probably an issue with the ink formula. Scott suspects that the LLK ink used as a final coat on Epson 7900 prints to give them consistent texture (I am paraphrasing here, of course) and therefore it is formulated to dry faster than the rest of inks. His explanation, even though not scientifically proven, certainly makes sense. I used his solution "as prescribed", but unfortunately, it did not clear up the clog. I do hope that the solution works for you Jeverton, if you did order it (side note: the solution, although has no odor, made me VERY nauseous, even though I left the room immediately after spraying it every time. But I tend to be very sensitive to chemicals).
In the meantime, I have been trying to communicate with Epson. (This is, to remind everyone, is AFTER I used all the common routes of contacting Epson tech support, via phone or email, multiple times).
A couple of people from this thread were nice enough - thank you, guys! - to email me privately and gave me email addresses of Epson individuals who helped them with with their Epson "out-of-warranty" printer issues in the past. So, I emailed those 2 Epson people with personal nice messages, detailing the LLK ink clog problem, and asking for any assistance. Got NO reply. NONE.
Then, searched for "Client relations" (or "customer relations") department on Epson website - which is different from "customer service." A "higher up" department, if you will. I found an email address there, and sent yet another message detailing my problem. I always mention right away that my printer is out of warranty and that is why I am emailing them (and not tech support). A lady replied to me, I got very hopeful. She asked me for additional info, such as a copy of my printer purchase invoice, and to tell her which departments I have contacted in the past. I provided all of that. Then she replies with: "Sorry, I have discussed this with our pro imaging manager, and since your issue began after your printer warranty had expired, we cannot assist you." Are you KIDDING me?
Mind you, I am not even asking for any free service from Epson (even though, this is obviously a DEFECT!). All I want them to do is communicate with Decision One, and provide me with a knowledgeable technician. I want to have a CLEAR idea of how much this will cost me, instead of less-than-qualified tech guy coming over and playing - as one of you said - a guessing game at my expense! Perhaps give me a fixed rate repair option, instead of $175/hr at "no one knows how many" hours, and "no one knows how many" parts.
I guess this is to be continued. If I have any "break troughs" with Epson, I will be sure to post an update here. I am extremely disappointed with Epson customer service (or lack thereof), and with their plain refusal to even acknowledge this 7900 and 9900 LLK Ink Clog DEFECT!
Jeverton, perhaps you should too, contact their Customer Relations department. Even though my results were negative, you might have a different outcome.
As for "raising our voices and documenting the issues" - I'm game. This is just ridiculous.
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Please send me any contact names or departments at Epson so I can elevate the issue. I've also taken the liberty to contact the vendor where I purchased the unit and asked the owner for assistance in contacting Epson management. This is highly irritating, unprofessional and warrants additional pressures from the consumer and business owners. So net-net... the more names we can identify with this issue the easier it will be to approach the leadership team.
Jeff
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@Jeff,
I have sent you a private message with all the Epson contacts and additional info.
LL private messaging system is a bit weird - the message is not showing in my Outbox - so if for some reason you did not receive it, please let me know.
And if anyone else is experiencing Epson 7900 or 9000 LLK clogging issues and can shed any additional light on this 'situation' - please share.
Feel free to message me with any questions as well.
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Greetings Folks,
So last year around December(printer just out of it's 2 year warranty) I noticed the same problem on my green channel on my 9900.. Overnight a bunch of closely spaced green channels just stopped firing.. No amount of cleaning(power, and superstrongcleaning) alleviated the problem.. I stuck to mostly black and white prints and posters and such that were green light(have to keep the money rolling in). Eventually the green channel failed completely. Service was 2500 bucks, a new head, and inkpump assembly). and despite the fact that the tech failed to attach the ink lines correctly(flooding my studio with ~1 liter of ink)... After cleaning up the mess, he was able to get my printer printer correctly.. Upon examination, the old ink head had ink that flowed cleanly from ALL the nozzles. It was not clogged.. Most likely delaminated.
It is one year later and I am getting the same problem.. The printer is temperature controlled(65-75deg) humidity controlled(28-50% tops), only genuine inks, that I mix every time I swap an ink from that bank..
I'm kinda ready to toss this thing out the window, but my prints are one of the few things that separates my business from everyone who just does digital only work.. Less than 1 year for a new head? Seriously? What do I do here?
Thanks!!
Burnsides
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I really have to question the rationalle of the LLK being used as a "coating" and formulated to dry faster, consequently causing the clogging issues some are having.
If the LLK was being used that way it would certainly be the first ink to be used up and needing replacementand,and that is not the case. It is in fact the LK that gets used the most and requires replacement sooner!
There seems to be no consistant issue that is the same on every problem machine according to my recollection of reading many 'clogging' threads. Reports vary from Green, Magenta,PK,MK, to LLK channels clogging.
Alexandra... sorry to hear your issue has not yet been resolved.
David
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I learned that Jean-Christian Rostagni is writing an article for Photo Technique magazine on the reliability of the 900 and 890 series, the best maintenance techniques and tips for them, and this very problem of head failure. He has started a poll on the Epson Large Format usergroup here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/surveys?id=3081227
The vote gathers votes on whether people have had problems with any Epson L.F. printers and one can vote for every printer as apply. Please consider doing that, even if you never had any problem, as it seems like we might get a better idea then if we are all hallucinating or if Epson is in denial.
Additionally, if you have had a serious issue with a x900 printer, you can direct your experience directly to jeanius@artmessengers.com so that he may report accordingly.
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David - good point. It seemed to me, from reading many user posts, that there are many more LLK clogging issues in comparison with any other color, but I am probably just predisposed to paying more attention to them since they mimic my Epson 7900 problem.
Burnsides, thanks for sharing your experience. That is just what happened with my LLK channel. So, you spent $2500 on parts and service and the printhead wasn't even clogged? And now the problem is back? YIKES!!!
What does "printhead delamination" mean exactly? It it normally caused by extremes in temperature?
It took Jean-Chrisian's survey from a link provided by Jeff. So far, it seems like approximately 50% of x900 owners who responded have had issues with their Epson 7900/9900 printers.
I am pretty much ready to put a lid on this Epson headache and to start shopping for an non-Epson pro imaging option.
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Greetings!
The piezoelectric effect is just that certain crystals"flex" when a current is applied to them. So piezo fired liquid dispensers are made by laminating several components together.. There is the nozzle plate, the actual piezo plate, the ink transport channels, and a whole slew of electronic wiring that gets the current to the piezo.. I say either delamination or or destruction of the electronic control of the channels.. I'm less prone to think that the electronics are bad, as some nozzles spray sideways and lightly at that.. Perhaps the electronics fried, and dumped too much current to the print head? Uncertain.. All I know, is that it does not seem to be a clog.
The new repair scheduled for this coming wed has a $2000 part order.. Epson told the tech to replace all components. This repair includes control boards. So this is going to be a 3K repair.. A new Epson 9900 is only 5K with the discount. I will have spent $5500 in repairs in under three years. That's a lot of money.. I don't have to tell all of you small business folks out there how tight the economy is, and how much a repair bill of this magnitude hurts a photography business.
I think it's QUITE important to do a forensic on the head after the repairs.. Is it really a clog, a head delamination, or an electronics issue(in the head, there is a small board in the head itself). We need to determine if this is a head manufacturing problem, board issue, or whatnot..
I did hear something from my earlier repair guy who said that they tried to clean the heads, and after cleaning with fluid coming from all the nozzles, the channels will still not fire.. They said that this was true for the 7900/9900 printers. BTW same electronics and heads for both..
I shall update you after the repairs are completed.. I am scared that I am chasing good money after bad. Do any other manufacturers have these kind of issues?
Thanks folks...
Burnsides
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Thanks for the explanation @Burnsides.
So after you spend that amount of money (ouch! ouch! ouch!) it might make sense for you to also purchase an extended warranty this time around. Supposedly you usually have an option to purchase it after a tech repairs your machine. Good luck with the repair.
It has become clear to me that owing a 7900 or 9900 machine without an extended service plan is a crazy gamble. I wish I knew that going in.
Speaking of which, does anyone know for how many years you can keep purchasing an extended warranty on Epson x900 printers? Do they cut you off at some point, or can you keep extending it for every year you own the machine, regardless of how old your printer is? ...Just curious.
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Speaking of which, does anyone know for how many years you can keep purchasing an extended warranty on Epson x900 printers? Do they cut you off at some point, or can you keep extending it for every year you own the machine, regardless of how old your printer is? ...Just curious.
According to the Epson website; one additional 2 year warranty can be purchased anytime during the first year the original warranty is still in effect. Warranty period then expires 3 years from the date of purchase.
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The 2 year warranty is a bit spendy.. I bought the 1 year extended.. and the printer died right after. I would have totally done this were I in a printhouse or 24/7 production environment. Again.. I see many folks here with "light" usage..
To contrast.. I know folks with a few 3800 series that have higher linear footage a year than I do, no issues.. One does expect a certain increase in reliability with the increase in capitol outlay.. I'd have preferred a service plan pricing schedule rather than a warranty.. Service plans are generally 10% cost of the instrument/year for 5 year instruments. This is a reasonable price given the cost of ink and paper(consumables).
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Also.. It's really not all that difficult to swap out the print head.. Although the electronic and mechanical items that I rebuild on a daily basis are several orders of magnitude more so.. It's a very simple mechanical device. However.. It is not possible to buy replacement parts for the Epson. No heads, no ink assembly, no wiper blades.. Basically, you can replace the cutter blade, the ink and the paper.. Perhaps those little overrun strips as well.
I do recall being at a seminar for the Epson 9900 at the Cambridge Mariott, and one of the engineers for Epson said that this was one of the most reliable printers that they had ever made..
Oh well..
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It has become clear to me that owing a 7900 or 9900 machine without an extended service plan is a crazy gamble. I wish I knew that going in.
Alexandra: I think you hit the nail on the head. Anytime you purchase a large/expensive piece of specialized equipment, you need to really consider buying the extended warranty to avoid "predatory" repair charges. 10+ years ago a photographer friend purchased a Fuji Pictograph photo printer and ran in to the same problem. Once the printer was out of warranty and it stopped working, it was $1,600 for this part and $700 for that part.
~ Jeff
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The 2 year warranty is a bit spendy..
currently in the US, Epson offer a $1000 rebate on the 7900 and the 2 year extended warranty is $1400 so if I do the math correctly the extra warranty is really only $400. Of course this is today and doesn't apply to those who paid full price without a rebate. I don't have a 7900 (only a trouble free 3880) but I wonder if there are any 3rd parties out there that offer service contracts or if Epson won't provide parts to such third parties. Certainly with many household appliances and other stuff one can get third part warranties (most new cars in the US can be warranteed through one's insurance company for up to 7 years on major repairs). In many cases such warranties are not worth paying because of the reliability of the appliance but I guess in the case of a large format printer the story is different.
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Normally I buy the extended warranties for everything.. This thing smacked my budget pretty hard just to get it in the door. I expected a few things.. It to work for more than 3 years without issue. The ability to get parts and fix it myself, and if not.. A reasonable repair cost.. My company bills out less for me to fix a ~$1mil mass spec.
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The ability to get parts and fix it myself, and if not.. A reasonable repair cost.. My company bills out less for me to fix a ~$1mil mass spec.
Yes, it would be great to get a repair manual and do this stuff. It is likely not a difficult chore and I've repaired my share of laboratory instruments over the years though nothing as costly as a mass spec! :D Epson's approach to this is unlike anything I've seen.
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I actually have a copy of the full service manual.. Completely useless without the Service software and access to replacement parts.
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I agree with this "predominant advice" accurate for devices that are purely electronic, or close . . . but I find it less useful for devices like printers which have a substantial mechanical component!
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I also had a 9900 LLK channel die on me, same experience as everyone else here, the strange part with mine was I did several prints, and the head just suddenly crapped out in the middle of them, and that was the end of it.
DecisionOne is in my opinion the least proffesional company I've ever dealt with (and my user name makes it pretty easy for anyone from Epson/DecisionOne to figure out who I am), first, I call in to Epson Tech Support and advise them of the situation, they ask me a couple questions, don't ask me to do anything on the printer, then say that they believe that the print head has died, and will have to pass my claim on to their "Nation Wide Service Provider" Decision One.
Four days go by and I still haven't heard back from anyone, so I call back in to epson and ask them what gives, as I currently have a $5000 paper weight in my office, and am less than impressed. The Epson tech says they will look in to it and call me back...two more hours later he calls back and tells me that the person that books the maintenance for Decision One is on holidays, and that's why they haven't called me (ummm...wow).
Finally I get an e-mail from decision one with a quote attached($2400 CAD). I send them an e-mail back asking when the service might be able to performed, what sort of warranty they offer on their work, and a few other questions. They fire me back another e-mail saying they aren't able to give me an estimated time for their service until I've approved the quote (WHAT?), and answer most of the other questions in a somewhat satisfactory manner (although the fact that they only warranty their service for 90 days is a little bit odd).
I send back an approval for the quote, as either way I decide that it's going to need to be repaired. Then I get back...nothing. A week goes by, and as I'm looking at my credit card statement I notice that they've already charged my credit card for the full amount, haven't talked to me, haven't seen the printer, just charged me full pop for a replacement print head plus 6 hours labor.
I call decision one, LIVID, and they say that it's standard procedure, but they'll have a tech call me.
Two days later I get a call from someone, says that he has the perfect guy for the job, he's just finished an epson training course(awesome).
A few days later the guy finally comes to service the printer, and it turns out he apparently just got out of an Epson course because before that he didn't know how to "fix" printers at all. Fortunately for him I'm not there at the time or I probably would have thrown him out, but from what my wife tells me, the guy didn't know anything about the printer, he needed to call me because he didn't know how to load paper in the printer, he was apparently constantly using the owners manual to figure out how to do things, and for some unknown reason he needed to borrow a monitor in order to work on it...wow. Then, to make it even more entertaining, he didn't have enough time to fix it. 8:00pm rolls around and he's still at our house, and he tells my wife he's going to have to come back the next day.
So at the end of the day, I get a working printer, for $2400 and change, and a good story to tell of how a company shouldn't do business.
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I also had a 9900 LLK channel die on me, same experience as everyone else here, the strange part with mine was I did several prints, and the head just suddenly crapped out in the middle of them, and that was the end of it.
DecisionOne is in my opinion the least proffesional company I've ever dealt with (and my user name makes it pretty easy for anyone from Epson/DecisionOne to figure out who I am), first, I call in to Epson Tech Support and advise them of the situation, they ask me a couple questions, don't ask me to do anything on the printer, then say that they believe that the print head has died, and will have to pass my claim on to their "Nation Wide Service Provider" Decision One.
Four days go by and I still haven't heard back from anyone, so I call back in to epson and ask them what gives, as I currently have a $5000 paper weight in my office, and am less than impressed. The Epson tech says they will look in to it and call me back...two more hours later he calls back and tells me that the person that books the maintenance for Decision One is on holidays, and that's why they haven't called me (ummm...wow).
Finally I get an e-mail from decision one with a quote attached($2400 CAD). I send them an e-mail back asking when the service might be able to performed, what sort of warranty they offer on their work, and a few other questions. They fire me back another e-mail saying they aren't able to give me an estimated time for their service until I've approved the quote (WHAT?), and answer most of the other questions in a somewhat satisfactory manner (although the fact that they only warranty their service for 90 days is a little bit odd).
I send back an approval for the quote, as either way I decide that it's going to need to be repaired. Then I get back...nothing. A week goes by, and as I'm looking at my credit card statement I notice that they've already charged my credit card for the full amount, haven't talked to me, haven't seen the printer, just charged me full pop for a replacement print head plus 6 hours labor.
I call decision one, LIVID, and they say that it's standard procedure, but they'll have a tech call me.
Two days later I get a call from someone, says that he has the perfect guy for the job, he's just finished an epson training course(awesome).
A few days later the guy finally comes to service the printer, and it turns out he apparently just got out of an Epson course because before that he didn't know how to "fix" printers at all. Fortunately for him I'm not there at the time or I probably would have thrown him out, but from what my wife tells me, the guy didn't know anything about the printer, he needed to call me because he didn't know how to load paper in the printer, he was apparently constantly using the owners manual to figure out how to do things, and for some unknown reason he needed to borrow a monitor in order to work on it...wow. Then, to make it even more entertaining, he didn't have enough time to fix it. 8:00pm rolls around and he's still at our house, and he tells my wife he's going to have to come back the next day.
So at the end of the day, I get a working printer, for $2400 and change, and a good story to tell of how a company shouldn't do business.
To top it off Epson carries on with Decision One like it is some covert operation. I googled them and came up with a Decision One company with headquarters in Devon,Pa. if thats the same one.
To this day I am still not sure they really are a brick and morter company.
I think it may be just a name they have attached to this faux division(Legal front)and the work is just farmed out to service tech's that actually are employed by someone else.
I had a tech "Lined up through Decision One" out for a service call 3 years ago. He was from Lancaster,Pa. and I got the feeling he was actually working full time for someone else. (Just a hunch,no business card no name on the truck.)
I guess it really doesn't matter other then the more companies that are involved (Epson-Decision One - The company that the tech actually works for.) the more expensive it will be.
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http://www.decisionone.com/
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http://www.decisionone.com/
That'd be them :D
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That'd be them :D
Thats less then an hour from my home.
Maybe I will call them and see if I can drop off one of my Epsons to have it serviced. :)
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http://www.decisionone.com/
They were actually acquired by Glodyne, a global IT support company in 2010. FWIW, here is a quote from the Glodyne website: "Our innovative delivery model helps us to synchronize seamless and cost-effective solutions with assured quality to our clients." It may be that they don't know that Decision One is not living up to their goals! If anyone is in Mumbai, you can drop by the corporate office and lodge a complaint. :D
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I also had a 9900 LLK channel die on me, same experience as everyone else here, the strange part with mine was I did several prints, and the head just suddenly crapped out in the middle of them, and that was the end of it.
DecisionOne is in my opinion the least professional company I've ever dealt with
Steven, I'm sure sorry to read about your experience, as well as the experience of everyone here who has experienced LLK failures. I would be interested to follow up on the poll, to see how widespread this issue might be. Since I live close to you, and also own a 9900, it seems rather probable that I will have a chance to meet the super-tech who serviced your 9900!
I find myself curious about the relationship between Epson and DecisionOne. I've read quite a bit about DecisionOne in these pages, and I don't offhand recall reading about a single positive experience. Epson seems to support them very strongly, both by maintaining an exclusive relationship with them, and by making it impossible for anyone else to purchase parts. The question I always have when I look at a business relationship, is "who benefits from it?".
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I find myself curious about the relationship between Epson and DecisionOne. I've read quite a bit about DecisionOne in these pages, and I don't offhand recall reading about a single positive experience. Epson seems to support them very strongly, both by maintaining an exclusive relationship with them, and by making it impossible for anyone else to purchase parts. The question I always have when I look at a business relationship, is "who benefits from it?".
It's really quite straightforward when you go to their website. They are the contractor for Epson for doing repairs and it's likely Epson have chosen this approach as opposed to maintaining their own trained field service staff. The key issue here is whether there are other outfits around that can provide a similar service. What approaches do HP and Canon take for their large format printers?
For those who have used DecisionOne, do they charge extra for travel to the site or is that part of the service fee?
It will be interesting to see what the survey turns up and what % of the Epson installed base have encountered such problems. I don't think we know that number.
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It's really quite straightforward when you go to their website. They are the contractor for Epson for doing repairs and it's likely Epson have chosen this approach as opposed to maintaining their own trained field service staff.
Exclusivity is an interesting business relationship. What I have seen in other business relationships, is that the recipient of an exclusive relationship typically pays for that privilege: often very handsomely. The grantor gets the benefit of a simplified business relationship, but since their reputation is linked to that of their contractor, they face two risks: a risk of dissatisfied customers turning away from the brand, and a legal anti-trust risk. They seem to be most common where the supplier perceives themselves to have an effective market monopoly.
The grantor gets cash from the exclusive contractor, which is a short-term benefit, along with a simplified business relationship. The grantee is able to increase their revenue from customers via high billing rates and parts margins, and may be able to substantially reduce their personnel training costs.
The grantor faces long-term risks, but may feel that they can ameliorate them by terminating the exclusive relationship when they see reduced sales revenue due to deterioration of the brand value.
My own $.02 here, is that companies often mistakenly assume the above to be linear cost-benefit relationships. I think that the evidence indicates that there are sudden jumps in the curves - that customers will put up with a surprising amount for some time, and then abandon a brand en masse when an alternative appears. As an example, consider Quark, the makers of a once-dominant desktop publishing software product. Famous for their poor customer service, Quark felt comfortable in their market dominance. When Adobe offered an alternative, Quark's market position evaporated almost overnight.
I'm presenting this as an example case only. I do not know that this specifically applies to Seiko Epson and DecisionOne.
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If you actually search these forums, there are plenty of positive comments about Decision One and Epson America in general in terms of service and support. No one remembers the good things, though.
More to the point, people don't generally go out of their way to post on a forum when something good happens (or more so when something simply happens "as it should"), so any poll conducted here (for any manufacturer, service company, etc) is going to be very much skewed.
What I would recommend is that where you have bad service, by all means come here and talk about it, but make a point of telling Epson and Decision One or whatever company/manufacturer it might be. You might think you're not being listened to, but I bet you are. I bet that the information is being collected and reviewed - it just might not result in any immediate changes or even none at all if your case is an exception - but the only way to ever get things to change is to send polite, constructive and factual information to those concerned.
As soon as you become angry, vitriolic, sarcastic, smart-ass etc then your correspondence loses significant impact (usually it ends up having no impact at all). Similarly, demanding x, y or z gets you no where. The people working for these companies are just like you and me - trying to earn a living and be good people. Sure, there may well be exceptions, but if you think it's their job to put up with us abusing them or carrying on like dick heads - you're wrong (which is not to say that people in this thread are like that - I'm just making general comments about the way these matters are often raised or handled).
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Agree Farmer, but having just bought a 7900 this thread scares the crap out of me. :]
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Agree Farmer, but having just bought a 7900 this thread scares the crap out of me. :]
I can understand your concern. I Bought my 9890 last August. At the time, 750 for an extended warranty seemed an awful lot. I've had a 4000, and still have my 3800 and 7800. They all work flawlessly. I did buy extended warranties for the 4000, but never had cause to use it. I was actually considering foregoing the cost, but this thread really give me pause. However, my Yellow and LLK have been .... misbehaving. No other channel drops out like these, and no other channel has ever needed more than a single paired cleaning.
Now, I did buy my 9890 with my AmEx, so I do have an extra year's "coverage" (they reimburse you repair costs, or replace/refund if hopeless), but I'll have to call them to see how much of a repair is covered.
I wonder. If this is truly a wide spread known factory defect, if a class action suit would not be in order?
@Alexandra
Did the 7900/9900 printers get a firmware update recently? When I was talking with the tech over my issues just the other week, I was told that one of the recent firmware updates provided paired power cleaning along with better cartridge recognition fixes.
However, from what I've read of your experiences, you have what I think is called ink starvation. In other words, you don't have a clog, just no ink at the nozzle! These printer have a complicated pressurized system to get ink to the head. They need that to keep up with the speed at which it prints. If you have a pressurization issue, or air leak in your LLK channel, then you will never have ink at the head. And the way you described it gradually getting worse the more you used it, really leads me to think you need to see if you can replace the damper, and check the line connections. This is easy to do on a 4000/x800 series. No idea on the new x900 though.
Hope you get your machine up and running. What a nightmare, for sure!
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Now, I did buy my 9890 with my AmEx, so I do have an extra year's "coverage" (they reimburse you repair costs, or replace/refund if hopeless), but I'll have to call them to see how much of a repair is covered.
Yes that is true of many charge card extras and should be looked into if you have used a chage to purchase your machine.
I wonder. If this is truly a wide spread known factory defect, if a class action suit would not be in order?
Good luck even if it's true it has to be proven and the chance of anything close to full restituion for expenses is very slim.
Epson went through a class action suit a number of years ago in California over excessive ink replacement and misrepresentation of volume left in the carts on certain models.
The restitution in that case was one free replacement cart for the tens or more you might have purchased ,and a heck of alot of red tape to prove you should be entitled to it.
@Alexandra
Did the 7900/9900 printers get a firmware update recently? When I was talking with the tech over my issues just the other week, I was told that one of the recent firmware updates provided paired power cleaning along with better cartridge recognition fixes.
Yes, in the US it was released 11/30/2011...
Firmware Update version HN030B9
Windows 7 32-bit, Windows 7 64-bit, Windows Vista 32-bit, Windows Vista 64-bit, Windows XP 32-bit, Windows XP 64-bit
epson14555.exe - 4.6MB - posted on 11/30/11
This file contains Firmware Update version HN030B9. This file extracts to your hard drive and is placed in a folder that begins with C:\epson\epson14555…
This update contains the following improvements: •Corrects intermittent ink cartridge recognition issues.
•Adds "Execute(Powerful)" option to the "Clean Color Pairs" menu in the control panel.
The Remote Panel 2 Utility, also downloadable from this page, should be used to apply this firmware update.
However, from what I've read of your experiences, you have what I think is called ink starvation. In other words, you don't have a clog, just no ink at the nozzle!
My recent experience bears that out for sure..
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=57275.msg492973#msg492973
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Alexandra,
There is a company selling dampers for the 9xxx series printers on ebay. The dampers are about 20 bucks each. This might be an options for you if you feel up to the task. A failed damper would cause just the sort of problems you are having. Phone is 855-238-3427
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Agree Farmer, but having just bought a 7900 this thread scares the crap out of me. :]
FWIW, I've had an Epson 7900 since December 2008 and it's still running fine. I won't claim there aren't a few quirks, but in general I'm quite happy with it.
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Agree Farmer, but having just bought a 7900 this thread scares the crap out of me. :]
It's not that you should ignore things read on the net, but they must be taken into perspective and I would let it concern you overly. As I mentioned, the percentage of people who bad experiences who post messages compared to the percentage of people who have good or OK experiences is probably several orders of magnitude different :-)
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I have had my Epson 7900 now for almost 2 years. No problems or issues (knock on wood). Occasional clog that a normal cleaning cycle clears. I also have a 9900 that has so far not provided any issues but it is only a few months old.
SS
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My biggest issue with Decision One is the charged hourly rate.
Its a friggin printer for gosh sakes! $150.00 an hour?
I have had multiple businesses over the years so I know all about service charges and keeping equipment properly maintained. It is part of business,but!
For example my fulltime day job for 39 years has been flying a corporate jet. Expensive to buy,expensive to run and expensive to maintain.
But the hourly service rate that Cessna Citation Service charges to work on this 7 million dollar airplane is $100 an hour.
I also run my own cabinetry business for the past 25 years and have had the servicemen here a dozen times or more to work on my widebelt sander,straightline rip, moulder and panel saw.
Service rate $75.00 an hour.
So you see what I am getting at. Decision One charges the high rate not because there overhead is sky high or there serviceman are paid 100k a year. They charge it because they are the only game in town and they can get away with it.
I guess as the saying goes "It is what it is".
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My take is that you cannot even buy the parts to fix the printer yourself.. It's $2K in parts + the 175 an hour(in my area).. +100 for travel.. It's not that hard to replace the print head. It just takes time..
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Saw this thread on a Google search as I have been considering the 9890 or the 9900. Question... does the 9890 suffer the same issues that have been listed for the 7900/9900?
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Since the technology is the same ,minus 2 channels it can suffer from the same issues....BUT
don't let that discourage you! Epson is not out to deliberately screw everyone. ;-)
These are very fine printers to say the least, and as Farmer has said, the reports of issues on the www are most likely a very small percentage of actual machines in use in the real world.These are made to be used, not to sit idle for long periods.
For more peace of mind buy with a credit card that adds an extra year to the warantee, and forget the extra cost of an extended warantee
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As a fine art photographer, I've invested more than $6K into a wide format printer solution - based on industry research, the company’s reputation and the recommendation of my supplier.
As things stand at this point with the x900 Stylus Pro Series, unless Epson comes clean, I would not buy an Epson, and would be more at peace at night, with a Canon or HP in the house, and only wish I had come to this conclusion during my initial acquisition. The entire "out of warranty" song is not making things any better on the two year old Epson SP7900 with less than 108 total prints!
Frankly, the recent service and support outside of the warranty is unacceptable - Decision One “potentially” wants me to invest another $2800 into repairing the unit due to a failed LLK channel by replacing the print head and several other key items (dampers, wiper, etc.). Is this truly the underlying issue with the MicroPiezo TFP print head technology solution due to a clogged channel and limited utilization? What about conveying all the facts (e.g. usage, maintenance and support) to business owners in advance prior to making an initial purchase?
Personally, this is more than the actual cost of a new printer with a set of starter inks and one year warranty.
Furthermore, my experience with this printer has been fine for two years until I ran into this problem. I would have assumed a more professional support network to address this issue on a pro-active basis with reasonable costs. As a small business owner it is not always the luxury to keep investing in extended services.
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The entire "out of warranty" song is not making things any better on the two year old Epson SP7900 with less than 108 total prints!
Please don't take this the wrong way but this seems like a very small number of prints. Would you have been better served by outsourcing the printing?
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Yes, I did in fact weight this option and elected to make a longer term investment. The goal was to ramp production up after my international travels. But then I ran across this situation.
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That's a joke, and they probably would charge you that much. My experience in the past with Decision One was dreadful. Stay in warranty or you loose.
I paid $3,000.00 for both my Canon 44" 8300 and the Epson 9890 units new with inks and warranty. You can often get a Z3200 for close to that as well when they are on sale.
john
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Frankly, the recent service and support outside of the warranty is unacceptable - Decision One “potentially” wants me to invest another $2800 into repairing the unit due to a failed LLK channel by replacing the print head and several other key items (dampers, wiper, etc.).
Personally, this is more than the actual cost of a new printer with a set of starter inks and one year warranty.
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That's solid advice and appreciate the info. I am also going to look at the Canon series as well.
As a side note, I've dealt with D1 via my full time job as an IT professional. I can say w/o hesitation that the technical expertise of their field service folks is lacking at best. You often get someone that is seeing a piece of hardware for the first time and learning on your dime. Numerous time we've had young kids just out of tech school on site and reading a manual or searching the internet for solutions all the while the meter is running. They are a low cost IT service provider and that is reflected in their support model.
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I have owned a 7900 since 9/7/2011 and I am adding this post because it may help other Epson owners. My machine did not work right from the first day I owned the machine. It took four service calls and now the printer functions like it should. The problems I was experiencing was complete nozzle check patterns missing on the PK,MK/LLK nozzle pair(if the printer sat unused longer than 2 or 3 days), ink starvation or nozzle drop outs if I printed one or two 30 x 20 prints, and the printer would take multiple cleaning cycles to clean clogged nozzles. I let the Decision One do all the repairs but I wanted to figure out was going on, so I acquired the Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 Service Manual and the Pro 7900 and 9900 Field Repair Guide.
The first Service call the wiper was cleaned and I was told the clogging issues was due to "morning sickness" (nothing wrong with the printer). The wiper is a small piece of rubber that is used to clean the print head.
The Second Service call the capping station and the wiper was replaced. This fixed the PK,MK/LLK nozzle pattern missing problem.
The third service call the ink selector was replaced. The ink selector does the PK,MK switch but also contains all the dampers for the 7900. This part solved the ink starvation, drop out problem.
The fourth service call the Print Head was replaced. Right before I placed this service call I had a small clog on the LLK nozzle. I attempted to do a CL1 and CL2 pair clean in service mode. The clog would not go away. I let the printer sit for an hour and did another CL2 pair clean and a normal clean. The clog finally cleared and moved to a new location on the LLK nozzle. I turned off the machine and called Epson Support. After the print head was replaced all cleanings are resolved on the first cleaning attempt (either pair or normal clean).
For people who want to service the machine on the own, it is possible if you are mechanically inclined. I do not believe that the print head can be replaced by most people. This is because once the print head is replaced, the following three things must be done. The NVRAM (non volatile ram) must be updated before the print head will even be recognized by the printer. Then the Horizontal and Vertical adjustment must be adjusted for the print head. This is done by running two separate routines in service mode and adjusting the adjustment screws on the print head.
For people who want to service their own printer you need the following four items.
Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 Service Manual
Pro 7900 and 9900 Field Repair Guide
Parts Manual Epson Stylus Pro 7900/9900 (this is just the mechanical drawings)
servprog.exe for epson 7900. This program will write and read information from the nvram in the 7900. required for replacing some parts.
Parts can be bought from:
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/AboutEpsonConnection.jsp#section5
or google "Epson parts distributor"
When ordering parts you need to supply the product name Epson Sylus pro 7900, and the mechanical part number. You need to tell the distributer the number came from the mechanical drawing and they will cross reference this number to the real part number.
Part numbers for Epson 7900 for the following parts:
Part Name Desciprtion Mech # Epson part #
PUMP,CAP,ASSY,B,ESL,ASP capping station 567 1523796
WIPER,ASSY,ASP wiper 568 1504179
SELECTOR,UNIT,ESL,ASP ink selector/damper 526 1504216
PrintHead Printhead 523 F191010
The labor rate for Decision one in my area was $100 to show up and $175 a hour. They took about 4 hours for each service call.
I was told by Decision one that the Printhead could not be purchased from parts suppliers and could only be obtained from them. They said the cost of the print head was $1800.
If replacing the Dampers or the Printhead you need to take into account the amount of ink that must be purged through the lines when these parts are replaced. It takes several power cleans. When the dampers were replaced 45 % of the Maintenance Tank was used and the Print Head used 40 % of the Maintenance Tank.
The Service Man warned about the edge connectors that Epson uses on their ribbon cables. If these cables are not plugged back in correctly, it is possible to short power and ground which will fry the circuit boards in the machine.
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Well, I just bought a 7900 two weeks ago, used an HPZ2100 for 4.5 years and an HP130 for 6.5 years, went with HP at the time because of the embedded spectro, 2 blacks switching automatically with purging lines, cheaper ink, replaceable printheads. Epson added SpectroProofer, switching blacks, and inks about the same cost per ml now.
I have no experience with large format Epson but I can tell you it prints faster at 1440dpi than the z2100 at does at 600dpi. The HP is only $2895 list WITH spectro included, the 7900 was $2841 (with a $1000 rebate) PLUS $1400 for the spectro. I would simply replace the printer for $2841 rather than pay $2000 for repairs that may last another 1-3 years??? And avoid the headaches as much as possible and time wasted trying to fix, IF financially possible, course if you have the money to fix it, sounds like you almost have the money to replace it? Especially if you're getting close to needing inks also, how much have you spent in inks already trying to clean it?
I will go back to HP in an instant if this becomes our experience also.
Both HPs are still working, never made a service call on either one yet, never had a failure due to printhead, only replaced them once or twice when they went out of warranty. Inks lasted very well for us also. HP did however quit selling their proofing paper which the profiles shipped with our printer were made for. They also haven't come out with a new version for proofing in several years (that I'm aware of?) and that made me question their commitment to professional level imaging and proofing....but I never did have a service issue either.
I hope I don't experience the problems you and others have with the 7900 but if I do I will have no problem replacing it with an HP and moving on. You have a problem but you have a choice on your next purchase.
Vote with your wallet. Just passing on my experience for what it's worth, nothing to some I'm sure, but info just the same. :)
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Are the HP proofing papers that special? Proofing papers are available from different sources with some respectable names among them. EFI-Tecco, GMG. You could check spectral plots of proofing papers in my SpectrumViz and their weight, it would not surprise me if a suitable alternative is among them.
The Z5200 was introduced in 2010. The Z6200 is quite recent too and a fast machine though expensive. Both with more relation to the Z2100 ink set than to the Z3100-3200 versions.
I share your experience on the reliability of HP printer models. The quirks in the software are the real negative issues of the HP models.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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"The quirks in the software are the real negative issues of the HP models."
Hi Ernst, can you expound on those issues?
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This thread is scaring me.
I purchased an HP z3100 3 1/2 years ago. It worked fine for 3 years and then went into a downward spiral, requiring more service calls than I figured the printer was worth. I just ordered a new Epson 7900 to be delivered next week.
And then I happened upon this thread. Shame on me for not doing more research before my purchase.
So is this what we are to expect from companies going forward? A few years of service out of a device that costs thousands of dollars? Paying big bucks for service calls or contracts to keep poorly designed products running?
The HP z3100 has a drive belt that starts to fall apart after 3 years of light use leaving chunks of rubber in the print path which results in white spots on your finished print when the chunks fall away. I got that fixed and recalibrated the printer and it started printing better than when it was new! But that was short lived. I then started to get error message after error message and finally gave up because it was costing me too much. HP Tech support charges for calls if you are out of warranty.
So I ordered the Epson 7900 figuring it will last a long time without problems. I still own an Epson 7600 which still prints fine if I take the time to clean the heads (soak the parking pads with solution and let it stand overnight, followed by a few power cleaning cycles). I also still use my Epson 2200 for smaller, less critical printing. I was hoping for the same kind of reliability out of a new Epson, but I guess times have changed. :(
So this begs the question, how are Canon large format printers holding up after a few years of service?
If this trend continues, I see myself buying smaller, cheaper printers for the bulk of my printing needs and using a commercial printer for the less-frequent large format print. Let them worry about keeping their printers working.
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This thread is scaring me.
As was pointed out by someone else earlier in this thread, virtually no one goes online to write that their printer (or anything else) is working normally. You only hear about the problems. The Epson X900 printers are popular and I'm sure there are many more of them working fine than there are with major problems. Mine was delivered in 12/2008 and I've never had a service call. The only thing that scares me about all this is the outrageous hourly rate for service should I ever need it. I'd never spend over $2K to fix a 3 year old printer that I can buy new for $3K. Perhaps that's the reaction they count on. I don't know if Canon or HP service rates are as high.
You can find nightmare stories starring any printer brand. If I was the costar in one of those nightmare stories I'd be here writing about it too. Its just important to remember that serious problems are not the norm for any brand. The time to be scared is when and if something breaks. Chances are it'll be fine.
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I've had my 9900 for just over three years now and it does not qualify for any more warranty. I did have the wiper unit replaced about six months in and other than the occasional clog here and there, it has been making money every since. I don't know how many units are out there but I have a feeling the ones we're hearing about here are more the exception than the rule. It's actually pretty amazing that they work as well as they do for as little as they cost.
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"The quirks in the software are the real negative issues of the HP models."
Hi Ernst, can you expound on those issues?
Not the thread to expand on that issue but the creation of custom print page sizes is a xxx*. The sizes are not saved on their size description but on their name which makes the interaction (job recall) with Qimage far worse than with Epsons or Canons. The driver settings fall back to the default. That improved in time though. The Color Center tools are too often not connecting with the printer (Vista 64 bad, XP 32 much better).
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Yes there are most likely many more x900 and x980 printers without problems than with. Although, just as it is mostly the people with problems that post here, most users under warranty (extended or not) call Epson and don't post here.
At any rate, it is pretty clear from "conventional wisdom statistics" that the x900 and x980 printers are more prone to severe problems than the previous Epson generations. It is also certain, that there is a problem, seemingly random, affecting typically the LLK channel, and occasionally the green one. There is just no case of serious issues out there of a problem with any other color. That cannot be a coincidence and point out to an engineering or manufacturing defect that Epson would do well to address instead of blaming users in the form of insisting that they pay the full price for a fix, and an inflated one at that.
If Epson does not correct its act, I am starting a class action and my next printer will be a Canon, it just can’t be worse than this.
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If you check the yahoo epson large format list you will see a lot of people having continuous banding and waving in the MK channel with the 9900/7900 series, all over the world, not just a person here or there. I'm hoping whatever is causing that was fixed in the 7890/9890 series.
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At any rate, it is pretty clear from "conventional wisdom statistics" that the x900 and x980 printers are more prone to severe problems than the previous Epson generations.
Really, what are the sales numbers and what are the percentages of users (in the various technology periods) with access to the internet and of them, how many posted on forums and so forth? That's just two problems you have with your claim. "Conventional wisdom statistics" indeed. The need to put that term in quotes says about all that needs to be said about it.
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Meanwhile we dont know if Alexandra's printer is fixed!
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Really, what are the sales numbers and what are the percentages of users (in the various technology periods) with access to the internet and of them, how many posted on forums and so forth? That's just two problems you have with your claim. "Conventional wisdom statistics" indeed. The need to put that term in quotes says about all that needs to be said about it.
+1; it's important to remember that anecdote does not equal data!
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just to put in mu $0.02c...
we have a 9900 for just about 12 months now and it works flawlessly... produces beautiful prints. I availed of a 3 year extended warranty through a promotion on myepsonprinter.eu a few months back and this gives me great peace of mind that I've made the right decision.
it's a great machine! is does get the odd nozzle clog, but it easy fix, I always run a clean first if it hasn't been used in a week or so and I also have Auto nozzle check turned on.
I'm knocking on wood as we speak, but I think it's important to see the good and the bad.
James
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I have a 79090 that just developed the exact same problem. The machine had problems from day one and had to have the print head replaced within a few weeks of getting it. It is now 2 1/2 yrs old and worked fine....till a few days ago with banding in black and white prints that I can clearly see if I print out a black and white gradient image but not in other colors. The nozzle check initially showed a bit of dropout and then was complete though I think one line might have appeared a bit lighter. Still the same problem and now a bit of dropout on the nozzle check again. Two super strong cleanings and 5 or so regular cleanings and a lot of wasted ink. The tech on the phone could not help me other than to say run cleanings since it is out of warranty and referring me to, you guessed it, Decision One with the same price quotes. They want to bill me $100 travel, $175/hr min 1 hr and %1712 in parts and will refund me for any unused parts.....why do I think they will all be used....
I would love to know if this was ever resolved other than with an expensive repair. A machine at this price really should last longer.
I remember when I had Decision One replace the capping station and clean the print head on my 7600 there was a new nozzle clog afterwards that wasnt there beforehand. They refused to do anything about it and said that you can't expect perfect checks and it wouldnt effect output. It cleared itself after several weeks but I was pretty angry at the time.
Howard
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....The tech on the phone could not help me other than to say run cleanings since it is out of warranty and referring me to, you guessed it, Decision One with the same price quotes. They want to bill me $100 travel, $175/hr min 1 hr and %1712 in parts and will refund me for any unused parts.....why do I think they will all be used....
....
I think the strategy is more "hmmm, let's replace this part and see if that solves it." They start slow, and then all the parts are installed. In practice, it's not a bad stretegy. The parts (aside from a new head) are relatively inexpensive. And if your printer is out of warranty, those "replaceable parts" have been used for a while and it's not a bad idea to replace them with new ones---the thought being they also might be nearing the end of their useful life. It's the labor that's gonna hurt your pocketbook. Not much consolation, I know. There are definitely little tricks/tips to keeping your Epson printer happy, and it'd be great if these were consolidated into a booklet. (e.g. monitoring humidity levels with a hygrometer; I haven't had a single clog since on my 9800; I've been told to monitor humidity more closely with my 9900).
Replacement Epson printer parts here (for the more daring diy'er): http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.18/category.22055/.f
I'm not so daring. There is also a decent article at the bottom of the link/page on Epson wide format printer maintenance and repair. Some good tips there on printers/maintenance/usage. At the bottom of the article is a link to a site where you can search for service manuals, like the Epson 7900/9900. The service manual is about $40 at www.2manuals.com Again, no experience with 2manuals, as I'm not so daring, and haven't had a need (knock on wood) to do any such repairs/replacement.
ken
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I have old firmware based on the if its not broke why fix it philosophy. I womder if it might be worth updating and doing another power clean to the LLK pair only (cant do power clean to pairs with the firmware I have.)
Howard
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The service manual is about $40 at www.2manuals.com
They're illegally selling copies of copyrighted manuals (not just Epson, but for a variety of vendors). They have no claim to the IP in question and they're charging money to give you a copy.
I wonder how many photopgrahers here would appreciate someone selling a copy of their photograph?
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Really, what are the sales numbers and what are the percentages of users (in the various technology periods) with access to the internet and of them, how many posted on forums and so forth? That's just two problems you have with your claim. "Conventional wisdom statistics" indeed. The need to put that term in quotes says about all that needs to be said about it.
This is exactly why we need to continue our pursuit with Epson; if we had all the facts/information our conversation would be pointless. However, the whole purpose of this thread is to raise awareness and document known issues.
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"Usually the companies know exactly what the problem is."
That hits the nail on the head. With my printer I had difficulties from day one requiring the printhead to be replaced within the first month. It was for a problem that was cropping up all over the internet and yet Epson acted like they didn't know what I was describing. I am sure everyone that had the problem happen had reported it to Epson as they were all under warranty at the time.
Worse, they initially absolutely refused to send someone to fix it even though it was under warranty. Why? Because I was printing on non-Epson papers and they weren't going to support output problems related to non-Epson papers, even though the problem was banding. My complaints that a pro level printer like this was made to print on all types of high quality paper fell on deaf ears and they weren't even going to address it until I showed that it also happened on Epson paper. It required my purchasing and reproducing the problem on Epson and non-Epson papers and mailing the sheets in to them before they would service the machine!
The problem now is not a simple clog. I upgraded my firmware and did two color pair power cleans to the LLK/Y channel. It restores the nozzles but one line in the pattern appears light and the clogged nozzles come back in minutes. I have never had that happen with any other color channel. And even when the nozzle check looks good, albeit a bit lighter, I get horrendous horizontal banding when I print a large gray square but not a colored square. If you search the internet you can find many complaints about this, so it is hard to believe that Epson knows nothing about it.
Nothing I can do but let the service people visit and hope the repair cost doesn't approach the cost of a new machine.
Howard
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We just started having this issue. Same story. A few weeks over warranty, started seeing banding, missing a block on the top and bottom of nozzle check. No cleaning auto or manual (with cleaners) makes a difference.
I'm 100% on board with trying to get attention on this. Let me know how I can help. We're a small and new shop and this has rocked our world, not in a good way.
>:( >:( >:( >:(
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We just started having this issue. Same story. A few weeks over warranty, started seeing banding, missing a block on the top and bottom of nozzle check. No cleaning auto or manual (with cleaners) makes a difference.
James - Contact Epson immediately and ask technical support to give you a break... if you are within a "couple of weeks" of the original warranty. If you don't get anywhere, ask to speak to a manager. And please keep us all posted to the outcome.
Jeff
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I've sent them an email, but actually the initial phone rep said I was still under warranty by a few days, but later I got contacted and was told that he was new, so I think a manager actually pushed this the other direction. :(
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Call again and keep calling if you need too... they should honor the warranty at this juncture.
Jeff
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nope. Other carts are all at least 30%. nozzle check print shows significant loss on LLK that cleanings have no effect on.
When I do a pair cleaning on Yellow/LLK, I get an "automatic cleaning failed (try again?)" error. Clue: try again = no worky. I will try and convince Epson that they would be doing the right thing by extending my warranty, but I'm not hopeful. It's looking like buying a new one will be a better investment than fixing this one, which is sick.
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In 1.5 years, I've had serious, unfixable "clogs" on both the LM and now C channels. I put clogs in parentheses because I have my doubts and suspect something more like delamination. Both required head replacement.
In having interacted with epson and vendors extensively on these, there is no doubt in my mind there is a serious issue with these heads, and that sporadic light use can lead to the problem, and heavy use on matte paper can too.
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Add one more the extensive list. epson 9900 (24 months old) LLK 40% missing. The rest are spot on. I already feel defeated after reading this whole thread.
- Kam
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Hi again everyone!
No changes on my end. No, I have not repaired my Epson 7900 yet. I am taking somewhat of a "wait and see" approach. All my communication with Epson (that I described earlier in this thread) resulted in NO favors or generosity from them, and I just can't justify spending $2400 or more to have this problem POSSIBLY fixed by Decision One - especially after reading some of your reviews about their service! And I do have a huge issue with their ridiculous hourly rate. And with the fact that they charge you for parts and labor BEFORE they even come over to properly diagnose the problem.
So part of me thinks of just buying a new machine - but I am still not sure whether to go with a new HP or Cannon - quite a bit research has to be done before I make that decision. And then, I start to remember how much effort it took to bring this Epson monster to my 2nd floor condo up our narrow staircase - and I want to bite the bullet, and just pay for repairs, and be done with it. But then, what if my Epson breaks again after being repaired? Eeeeesh....To make a long story short, I'm in limbo on this one.
My Epson is currently running fine, with the BIG exception of the same old LLK issue - and that channel is pretty much 100% gone. ....I did have a little scare yesterday - after being of town for a week and and returning home to make some prints, my Cyan and Light Magenta channels were FULLY gone on the test pattern - but a regular cleaning resolved that. (although, I almost rejoiced for a second because that additional failure would have made my "repair or new printer" decision easier. I still fantasize about throwing this monster off a cliff. )
For the time being, I create all of my darker prints, ones that do not use LLK ink, on the Epson 7900, and all of my light colored prints are done on my old HP DesignJet - which is smaller and much slower, but runs like a workhorse.
@chaddro, thanks for mentioning the damper. From doing lots of reading on this issue, I do think that ink starvation is a possible reason. Although, I wouldn't DARE to try to install that myself. I am not at ALL mechanically inclined. However, if someone wants to come over and attempt a new damper installation - or heck, a whole new Damper Assembly - on my printer, please be my guest. I would happily pay you a reasonable rate for a successful "damper swap". ...And feed you dinner. :)
Speaking of exclusivity of Epson and Decision One: in my area - Chicago - there is ONE MORE service company that Epson mentioned to me when I initially, months ago, made a customer service call to them about my problem. This company is called Computer Maintenance Inc, in Addision IL (http://computermi.com/). They are NOT affiliated with Epson. They "only" charge $100 / hr, but their travel fee is $175, and their parts are a more expensive (than Decision One parts). For example, their print head price is $1300 and Decision One print head price is $1132. I called them initially, they immediately diagnosed my problem as a print head issue, and overall didn't sound too interested in repairing my printer. I thought that was odd, so have not considered using them. Perhaps though I should call them back and possibly get a more knowledgeable person on the phone.
Has anyone had any experience with Computer Maintenance, Inc.?