Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Mr_S on July 28, 2011, 02:58:06 pm

Title: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mr_S on July 28, 2011, 02:58:06 pm
Hi All,


I've decided to take the plunge and buy a colorimeter.  I'm looking at the two models (in the subject above) and was wondering what the difference was?  From what I gather, the main difference is the operation speed of the unit and the bundled software...and about £60!  Being fairly new to all this, I could do with some pointers if possible and to avoid me making a purchase faux pas...

I'm going to be using the unit on my Dell u2711 and at present I'll only be using sRGB, with perhaps Adobe RGB later on down the line.  I'm interested in getting a decent profile for prints that I'll be hopefully selling - so would the ColorMunki suffice for my needs?

Thanks in advance...

Mr s.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on July 28, 2011, 04:01:44 pm
The EyeOne Display-2 has just been replaced by the EyeOne Display-3 and its a much better instrument!

Its a Colorimeter, its sole task is for calibration of a display. Its the ideal instrument for this task.
The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer. Its able to calibrate displays, albeit not to the accuracy in dark colors as a good Colorimeter but it also allows you to build profiles for printers (and for calibrating and profiling a projector). Cost more, does more.

If you donít have a need to build paper profiles, go with the EyeOne Display-3.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mr_S on July 28, 2011, 04:38:31 pm
Thanks for the info.  We might have got our wires crossed though, I was looking at the ColorMunki display http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-x-rite-colormunki-display/p1526087 not the ColorMunki Photo...unless I've got it backwards  ??? Would you still rate the ColorMunki display?
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on July 28, 2011, 06:06:57 pm
Thanks for the info.  We might have got our wires crossed though, I was looking at the ColorMunki display http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-x-rite-colormunki-display/p1526087 not the ColorMunki Photo...unless I've got it backwards  ??? Would you still rate the ColorMunki display?

Sorry, the naming is confusing...

That is the EyeOne Display-3 (new Colorimeter) which comes in two flavors. One is slower and provides less options for calibration. There is a competitive matrix on X-Riteís site (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=260). Speed isnít a big deal but the options for calibration are, so if possible, go for the more expensive unit. Not having the ability to specifically target a white point and luminance is kind of a big deal if your goal is to nail the display to print matching. The Ďpredefinedí settings mean you have to target to a specific preset, you canít season to taste.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mr_S on July 29, 2011, 04:28:29 am
Heh heh, I thought it was just me that thought the naming was confusing..! I wish these companies would just make it easy...I'm looking at you too Nvidia... :)

Thanks again - I'll splash the cash and get the display PRO.

Just out of interest - I've stumbled upon a forum where they were talking about storing colorimeters - they were saying the best place would be a drawer with an anti-moisture pack to help keep the unit from `drifting` over time.  Is this the preferred way of doing it as I don't fancy having to invest in a new unit sooner than I have too?
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on July 29, 2011, 09:01:06 am
Just out of interest - I've stumbled upon a forum where they were talking about storing colorimeters - they were saying the best place would be a drawer with an anti-moisture pack to help keep the unit from `drifting` over time.  Is this the preferred way of doing it as I don't fancy having to invest in a new unit sooner than I have too?

First Iíve heard that. I mean, sure, store the pup outside of the sink, but anti-moiture pack? Seems excessive. But then where I live, its really dry...
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mr_S on July 29, 2011, 10:17:53 am
It does seem a bit ott but...there seems to be people saying that it can prolong the life...Well, it couldn't hurt I guess.... ;D
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: K.C. on July 30, 2011, 02:36:11 am
It does seem a bit ott but...there seems to be people saying that it can prolong the life...Well, it couldn't hurt I guess.... ;D

Nothing quite like the photoforums to spawn a little urban folklore based on nothing more than conjecture. The part I find entertaining is the suggestion that a drawer can create a moisture barrier.

Back to the topic, I too looked at the Xrite site and it's really confusing and hard to decide where to jump in.

So for basic display calibration, vs. display and print, the ColorMunki does both but not very well ?
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: eronald on July 30, 2011, 04:29:30 am
Hi All,


I've decided to take the plunge and buy a colorimeter.  I'm looking at the two models (in the subject above) and was wondering what the difference was?  From what I gather, the main difference is the operation speed of the unit and the bundled software...and about £60!  Being fairly new to all this, I could do with some pointers if possible and to avoid me making a purchase faux pas...

I'm going to be using the unit on my Dell u2711 and at present I'll only be using sRGB, with perhaps Adobe RGB later on down the line.  I'm interested in getting a decent profile for prints that I'll be hopefully selling - so would the ColorMunki suffice for my needs?

Thanks in advance...

Mr s.

Just to be a contrarian, if cost is not the immediate issue, I would advocate ColorMunki, and getting the version which can profile prints too. It is a well-known product, which is fairly future proof -immune to changes in display technology-  and the print profiling feature should allow you to choose new papers without fear. If cost is an issue then i1Display Pro is obviously a strong contender. Obviously, both I and Andrew have seen both devices :)

Now, there has been a remark that ColorMunki does both screen and print but not very well. This is an interesting remark. CM has got very good reviews from people who used it for paper profiles, but of course it won't compete with the high-end scanners like the Xrite iSis or Barbieri LFP that allows Andrew or me to do profiles from thousands of patches with one sheet. Regarding displays, the CM as a spectro will have issues with very dark shadows, and also possibly with precisely situating the emissions of colored LEDs in RGB LED backlight (not white LED) displays. I will be publicly heretic and state that most inkjets block up the extreme dark tones badly so why should you care about shadow rendering, and furthermore if you were the owner of an RGB LED display you probably wouldn't be asking questions here :)

Edmund
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mr_S on July 30, 2011, 06:53:46 am
Just to be a contrarian, if cost is not the immediate issue, I would advocate ColorMunki, and getting the version which can profile prints too. It is a well-known product, which is fairly future proof -immune to changes in display technology-  and the print profiling feature should allow you to choose new papers without fear. If cost is an issue then i1Display Pro is obviously a strong contender. Obviously, both I and Andrew have seen both devices :)

Now, there has been a remark that ColorMunki does both screen and print but not very well. This is an interesting remark. CM has got very good reviews from people who used it for paper profiles, but of course it won't compete with the high-end scanners like the Xrite iSis or Barbieri LFP that allows Andrew or me to do profiles from thousands of patches with one sheet. Regarding displays, the CM as a spectro will have issues with very dark shadows, and also possibly with precisely situating the emissions of colored LEDs in RGB LED backlight (not white LED) displays. I will be publicly heretic and state that most inkjets block up the extreme dark tones badly so why should you care about shadow rendering, and furthermore if you were the owner of an RGB LED display you probably wouldn't be asking questions here :)

Edmund


Cheers Edmund - I'm not really going to be printing from home and will be using a print shop, so I've gone with the Display Pro...Wil be good to put my mind at rest over my display as I had a slightly dissapointing print come back from the shop - It looked great in terms of print quality but was over saturated and a little milky in contrast...From an old review from Tftcentral.com, they profiled their Dell U2711 and got the colour spot on so am expecting good things...

Cheers and will post back on my results..
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2011, 01:43:08 pm
So for basic display calibration, vs. display and print, the ColorMunki does both but not very well ?

IF your goal is the ultimate in display calibration and profiling, you want a Colorimeter and the new (whatever its called) X-Rite instrument is top dog today in its price range. I would not skimp on the software (unless the time comes that smart displays like NEC or Eizo drive these newer devices).  

IF your goal is a good multi-tasker that can handle the displays and build paper profiles, and you are on a budget, then go ColorMunki.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mac Mahon on July 30, 2011, 05:03:12 pm
Quote
IF your goal is the ultimate in display calibration and profiling, you want a Colorimeter and the new (whatever its called) X-Rite instrument is top dog today in its price range. I would not skimp on the software (unless the time comes that smart displays like NEC or Eizo drive these newer devices). 

Andrew
Is the CM display hardware the same as the i1 Display Pro hardware?  I already have i1 Profiler with the PhotoPro bundle but have been convinced by the forum that the colorimeter will do a better job on my monitor than the i1Pro.  Do you know if if the CM Display be able to use the Monitor routines in Profiler?
Tim
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: keith_cooper on July 30, 2011, 07:09:13 pm
Is the CM display hardware the same as the i1 Display Pro hardware?  I already have i1 Profiler with the PhotoPro bundle but have been convinced by the forum that the colorimeter will do a better job on my monitor than the i1Pro.  Do you know if if the CM Display be able to use the Monitor routines in Profiler?
I've got both bits of hardware, so I thought I'd give it a go :-)

Well... I just fired up a full (everything enabled) version of i1Profiler with a ColorMunki Display plugged in - it just tells me that it can't find an i1Display Pro.

Tried different versions of the 'tray' application and it seems that whilst the sensors may be similar, there is some form of identification used to ensure they will only work as supplied.

I also tried an i1Display Pro sensor with the ColorMunki s/w - nothing going there either...

This was on a Mac Pro - 10.6.8
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: K.C. on July 30, 2011, 09:30:27 pm
IF your goal is the ultimate in display calibration and profiling, you want a Colorimeter and the new (whatever its called) X-Rite instrument is top dog today in its price range. I would not skimp on the software (unless the time comes that smart displays like NEC or Eizo drive these newer devices).  

IF your goal is a good multi-tasker that can handle the displays and build paper profiles, and you are on a budget, then go ColorMunki.

Thank you for the clarification.

Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: Mac Mahon on July 30, 2011, 09:47:00 pm
Quote
I've got both bits of hardware, so I thought I'd give it a go :-)

Well... I just fired up a full (everything enabled) version of i1Profiler with a ColorMunki Display plugged in - it just tells me that it can't find an i1Display Pro.

Tried different versions of the 'tray' application and it seems that whilst the sensors may be similar, there is some form of identification used to ensure they will only work as supplied.

I also tried an i1Display Pro sensor with the ColorMunki s/w - nothing going there either...

This was on a Mac Pro - 10.6.8

Keith
Thanks
That's helpful although it does seem a shame to have to buy the Profiler s/w twice! Ho hum!
Tim
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: lmwacctg on August 01, 2011, 01:29:31 pm
The EyeOne Display-2 has just been replaced by the EyeOne Display-3 and its a much better instrument!

Its a Colorimeter, its sole task is for calibration of a display. Its the ideal instrument for this task.
The ColorMunki is a Spectrophotometer. Its able to calibrate displays, albeit not to the accuracy in dark colors as a good Colorimeter but it also allows you to build profiles for printers (and for calibrating and profiling a projector). Cost more, does more.

If you donít have a need to build paper profiles, go with the EyeOne Display-3.

Andrew:

I've noticed you make this point about colorimeter accuracy with dark colors several times. Is there data out there that quantifies the difference between the two devices in this regard? I guess what I'm trying to understand is how big are the differences. I have been using a Color Munki for 2 years now for both my monitor and my printer. I have been very satisfied with the results but would consider a change for monitor profiling.

Thanks,

Don
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 01, 2011, 01:31:50 pm
Is there data out there that quantifies the difference between the two devices in this regard?

There are the manufacturers published specís as well as this:
http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/xrite-wp-3a.pdf
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: lmwacctg on August 01, 2011, 01:51:50 pm
There are the manufacturers published specís as well as this:
http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/xrite-wp-3a.pdf

Andrew:

That article is "illuminating" to say the least! Thanks for the reference!

Don
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: amoergosum on August 02, 2011, 07:01:54 am
I'm trying to decide between the "ColorMunki Photo" and the "i1Display Pro".
I'm still not sure what the better device is in terms of monitor calibration...

Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 10:04:40 am
I'm trying to decide between the "ColorMunki Photo" and the "i1Display Pro".
I'm still not sure what the better device is in terms of monitor calibration...

Ah X-Rite sure has not made the naming easy on us.

There have been two previous i1Displays over the years (i1D-1 and i1D-2). I guess we have to assume from this page (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=260) the NEW i1Display Pro is what should be called the i1Display-3! But thatís the hardware you want ideally. The ColorMunki Display is the other device you see on this page, its slower but the big difference is the less capable software that ships with it. You want the faster device not so much because its faster but because the software is far more capable.

The ColorMunki Photo is a Spectrophotometer seen here: http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1115&catid=149&action=overview
Not to be confused with the ColorMunki Display, the slower colorimeter discussed above. 
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: amoergosum on August 02, 2011, 10:22:05 am
The ColorMunki Photo is a Spectrophotometer seen here: http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1115&catid=149&action=overview
Not to be confused with the ColorMunki Display, the slower colorimeter discussed above. 

I am aware of that.
So for me it is ColorMunki Photo vs i1Display Pro now...
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 10:23:26 am
I am aware of that.
So for me it is ColorMunki Photo vs i1Display Pro now...

You only want to deal with the display, go i1D but if you want to build output profiles for printers, can spend more,  ColorMunki.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: amoergosum on August 02, 2011, 11:55:21 am
You only want to deal with the display, go i1D


Why is the i1Display Pro the better device in terms of monitor calibration in your opinion?
There seem to be different opinions...
I sent an email to a Calumet store in order to ask about their recommendation...they wrote that the ColorMunki Photo
is the better technical device but it has inferior software in comparison with the i1Display Pro.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 11:58:27 am
Why is the i1Display Pro the better device in terms of monitor calibration in your opinion?

Because a Colorimeter is a better instrument for this task (and cost less).

http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/xrite-wp-3a.pdf
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: eronald on August 02, 2011, 01:09:37 pm
Because a Colorimeter is a better instrument for this task (and cost less).

http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/xrite-wp-3a.pdf

Sure a colorimeter costs less. I designed a colorimeter with a BOM of $2, and made a few prototypes. Each cost less than $100 handmade in the middle of Paris. You can make a 7 channel instrument for that price.

But the fact is that a colorimeter is only a good colorimeter if the filters are close to cone functions, and the amps are good. And your chances that cheap filters are going to be good are *low*. That's why a real colorimeter from Minolta is so expensive.

I prefer recommending ColorMunki Photo.

Edmund

Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 01:11:39 pm
But the fact is that a colorimeter is only a good colorimeter if the filters are close to cone functions, and the amps are good.

And in this new device, the filter matrices can be upgraded.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: eronald on August 02, 2011, 01:15:09 pm
Andrew,

You can adjust the matrices all you want, it won't help you unless you have very good knowledge of the display. This is a good sales argument to say that the device *can* be customized for wide-gamut displays etc. But it doesn't make the basic knowledge-less instrument better.

BTW, Andrew, I have an idea. Let them make their choices, as the jury is still out on the new devices, and then we can sort out the user experiences.

Edmund
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 01:25:56 pm
You can adjust the matrices all you want, it won't help you unless you have very good knowledge of the display.
You (the user) doesnít do this, X-Rite or OEMís do it.

Quote
This is a good sales argument to say that the device *can* be customized for wide-gamut displays etc. But it doesn't make the basic knowledge-less instrument better.
Irrelevant. Its new functionality for this product that didnít exist in the past. Think about the possibility of updating or upgrading the matrices over the web, through software.

Quote
BTW, Andrew, I have an idea. Let them make their choices, as the jury is still out on the new devices, and then we can sort out the user experiences.
Exactly what I did. A colorimeter is a better suited and less expensive instrument of the goal is only to calibrate and profile a display. The Spectrophotometer if budget permits and one needs other tasks like building output profiles. 
Edmund, I have an idea. Let them make their choice, you pay the additional cost over the Colorimeter even if they have no need for a Spectrophotometer.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 02, 2011, 01:30:31 pm
the jury is still out on the new devices

The jury member who tested the hardware in his lab and gave it high marks (Karl Lang) for me means the jury is in and the verdict is good.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: eronald on August 03, 2011, 02:33:54 pm
You (the user) doesnít do this, X-Rite or OEMís do it.
Irrelevant. Its new functionality for this product that didnít exist in the past. Think about the possibility of updating or upgrading the matrices over the web, through software.
Exactly what I did. A colorimeter is a better suited and less expensive instrument of the goal is only to calibrate and profile a display. The Spectrophotometer if budget permits and one needs other tasks like building output profiles.  
Edmund, I have an idea. Let them make their choice, you pay the additional cost over the Colorimeter even if they have no need for a Spectrophotometer.

Andrew,

The new Xrite colorimeter hardware looks carefully designed, and I give them an A+, for what it matters.

However, it is still a AFAIK colorimeter;  the matrices will help Xrite a lot to match the device to specific displays, but I don't think they're going to help the consumer in the short run.

Also, I fully agree with you that this device is suitable for 90% of the calibration use cases out there, which nowadays are web design, prepress etc, but for LULA readers who happen to be photo enthusiasts *I* believe the generalist spectro tool is the more appropriate. I don't know about the US, but over here in France it's a free country and I'm still allowed to recommend one instrument over another, especially when I state that both are high quality devices, and both are made by the same company.

Anyway, we've looked at the new stuff some time ago, and I think we agreed we like the new hardware. It's going to be interesting to see what the pro and amateur photographers here think of the new instrument and its software when both get exposed to the nasty real world.

Edmund.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: digitaldog on August 03, 2011, 02:40:24 pm
However, it is still a AFAIK colorimeter;  the matrices will help Xrite a lot to match the device to specific displays, but I don't think they're going to help the consumer in the short run.
So compared to all the other Colorimeters out there, your slant is, they are all weak (this one lesser so) and the solution is a Spectrophotometer despite its known lesser ability to measure darks? No one should use any colorimeter?

Quote
Finally, I fully agree with you that this device is suitable for 90% of the calibration use cases out there, which nowadays are web design, prepress etc, but for LULA readers who happen to be photo enthusiasts the generalist spectro tool is the more appropriate.
The other 10% being what and how do you lump the OP into that group?

Quote
It's going to be interesting to see what the pro and amateur photographers here think of the new instrument and its software when both get exposed to the nasty real world.
Nasty? In terms of the use of Colorimeters vs. Spectrophotometerís, cost vs. Performance, Iím lost by the comment.
Title: Re: X-Rite i1 Display PRO v X-Rite ColorMunki Display
Post by: eronald on August 03, 2011, 03:46:07 pm

Nasty? In terms of the use of Colorimeters vs. Spectrophotometerís, cost vs. Performance, Iím lost by the comment.


I'll let you have the last word for now. Let's watch the threads.

Edmund