Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Dave Gurtcheff on July 01, 2011, 03:22:32 pm
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Not sure where to post this, but here goes:
I have long admired here the seascapes made with long exposures to get the blurred moving water effect. I specialize in seascapes, but have never tried this. I bought a very "cheapy" 77mm multi coated ND Fader filter on ebay. It is cool, as it has marked increments from almost clear (probably one stop) to almost opaque. I assume shutter speeds around 5 to 10 seconds will be needed. I will be using a Pentax 645D, & mirror lock up. In my film days I did some long night exposures, and compensated for film reciprocity failue, but have never made digital exposures longer than around 1 second. Is there anything I need to know (noise, reciprocity, etc)? Any special processing from RAW? I will be using ISO 100 and f16 to 22 (I am willing to accept difraction lens issues).
Thanks in advance. If I get something worth keeping, I will post here.
Dave G
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Not sure where to post this, but here goes:
I have long admired here the seascapes made with long exposures to get the blurred moving water effect. I specialize in seascapes, but have never tried this. I bought a very "cheapy" 77mm multi coated ND Fader filter on ebay. It is cool, as it has marked increments from almost clear (probably one stop) to almost opaque. I assume shutter speeds around 5 to 10 seconds will be needed. I will be using a Pentax 645D, & mirror lock up. In my film days I did some long night exposures, and compensated for film reciprocity failue, but have never made digital exposures longer than around 1 second. Is there anything I need to know (noise, reciprocity, etc)? Any special processing from RAW? I will be using ISO 100 and f16 to 22 (I am willing to accept difraction lens issues).
Thanks in advance. If I get something worth keeping, I will post here.
Dave G
5 to 10 seconds is effective, but if you want the silky smooth stuff you might want to get to 30 seconds or even longer. Not sure what the limit is on the pentax, but the dark frame subtraction will eliminate most of the noise issues for you. Kind of a pain, you take a 1 minute exposure and then have to wait 1 minute to see the image and be ready to take another one.
One thing I've found is you sometimes have to shoot opposite of what you would do normally ... you wait till a wave crashes and then try to capture the flow running back into the ocean.
When I want the really silky look I tend to do these long after sunset or even using full moonlight (8 to 10 min exposures). I do have a singh-ray variableND filter which sounds similar to the one you describe... they are basically 2 polarizers. Sometimes there is an effect from the polarizer but it works for the most part. A good 10 stop ND filter is handy for this kind of thing as well. I also find splitND filters are very useful for this kind of stuff. I know you can sort of do this in PS, but for this type of thing you keep the exposure times the same so the motion in the sky can match the water.
Fun stuff to do, success is kind of hit and miss. Here's a few of mine (http://cwaynefox.photoshelter.com/gallery/Seascapes/G0000rqmm3qeGVIY/) if you care to look ...
You might also take a look at the work of Patrick Smith (http://patricksmithphotography.com/), who sort of specializes in very long exposures - seeing his work is why I started experimenting with it.
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Here's a few of mine (http://cwaynefox.photoshelter.com/gallery/Seascapes/G0000rqmm3qeGVIY/) if you care to look ...
Wayne, nice...I like the two in the upper right...
As for the Pentax 645D, you'll need to check out the longest exposure time for the sensor. For example my P45+ can do an hour while my P65+ can only do a minute (and even 30 seconds starts showing pretty strong read noise)...huge difference.
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Generally speaking heat is a huge factor. If you can limit your shooting to cooler nights you'll be able to do longer exposures than on warmer nights. If you shoot several long-exposures one-after-another you'll be progressively warming the sensor up and increasing noise. So if you take several shots to get set up you might wait a few minutes before capturing your keeper. In some rare situations it might be worth it to use a cooling device (being careful of moisture and condensation of course).
Good luck.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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Thanks all. I will keep you informed of any success (or failure) I have. Fourth of July weekend here on a barrier island (read shore resort) is a zoo. When the visitors leave, I do most of my serious stuff.
Dave
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In my experience for nice blurry clouds, smooth sea surface, steamy-like breaking waves you need at least 2 minute exposures. I found I needed around 4 minutes for the results I was looking for. Of course, the more time the blurriest. Some photographers go for the hours to achieve what they want but for this it's better to use film.
In my opinion you need an "old" PhaseOne P+ series back or a dslr.
Please check this work from me using this technique. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11310&highlight=zensorial
Eduardo
Not sure where to post this, but here goes:
I have long admired here the seascapes made with long exposures to get the blurred moving water effect. I specialize in seascapes, but have never tried this. I bought a very "cheapy" 77mm multi coated ND Fader filter on ebay. It is cool, as it has marked increments from almost clear (probably one stop) to almost opaque. I assume shutter speeds around 5 to 10 seconds will be needed. I will be using a Pentax 645D, & mirror lock up. In my film days I did some long night exposures, and compensated for film reciprocity failue, but have never made digital exposures longer than around 1 second. Is there anything I need to know (noise, reciprocity, etc)? Any special processing from RAW? I will be using ISO 100 and f16 to 22 (I am willing to accept difraction lens issues).
Thanks in advance. If I get something worth keeping, I will post here.
Dave G
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Eduardo: Thanks for the link and advise. I am anxious to try this out.
Dave in NJ
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My pleasure, Dave. I've found out that the full moon can provide you this effect at 4 minute @F4 iso 100, bare lens. ND's degrade IQ a little bit, even expensive ones. Try it out.
Eduardo
Eduardo: Thanks for the link and advise. I am anxious to try this out.
Dave in NJ
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Bad news: I tested the filter on 2 cameras. It does not work. At max, or near max, you get 90% smoky black smudges over top of a light background image. It seems pretty good at minimum effect setting, but I need a heavy ND for long exposures. Ebay buyers beware!
Dave
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Very nice shots, Eduardo!
Thierry
Please check this work from me using this technique. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11310&highlight=zensorial
Eduardo
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Wayne, nice...I like the two in the upper right...
As for the Pentax 645D, you'll need to check out the longest exposure time for the sensor. For example my P45+ can do an hour while my P65+ can only do a minute (and even 30 seconds starts showing pretty strong read noise)...huge difference.
thanks Jeff.
There are times I miss my p45+ for that reason. Hoping my new IQ180 is a littler better than the p65+.
For the OP, I can't really find anywhere that states how long the pentax is capable of, everyone just mentions the 30 second limit of the camera itself. Since it's a Kodak sensor, it may do quite well in long exposure times much like the Phase p45+ with it's Kodak sensor.
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Bad news: I tested the filter on 2 cameras. It does not work. At max, or near max, you get 90% smoky black smudges over top of a light background image. It seems pretty good at minimum effect setting, but I need a heavy ND for long exposures. Ebay buyers beware!
Dave
This one by singh ray (http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html) does work pretty nicely. I've used it for 6 or 7 stops with good results. You may also want to check in a LEE system and stack a couple straight ND filters. As I mentioned for seascapes, split ND's can be very useful, and I normally stack a 2 stop and a 3 stop together.
Very nice shots, Eduardo!
Thierry
agreed ... love em.
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If you need 3 minutes, but the camera/temperature will only allow 1 minute before noise becomes an issue, perhaps you may take 3 separate 1-minute shots and average them in software? For the red/yellow car light images, this wont fly (as there will be discontinuities in the light path), but for this kind of images where you just want blurring of the water, it might work.
Taking many (sub) pictures is kind of pain, but you may get by using a single "blackframe" for subtraction later, reducing the total time spent.
-h
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Some nice "smooth" shots on your site too, Wayne.
Love the smoothness.
Thierry
Here's a few of mine, if you care to look ...
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Well, always very nice to have some recognition but coming from you guys, it's really special. Thanks a lot.
Wayne, you have great pictures all around in your website. Thierry, if you can get me an Alpa for a year long test drive (with a back of course)..........
Just kidding. :D
Best
Eduardo
This one by singh ray (http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html) does work pretty nicely. I've used it for 6 or 7 stops with good results. You may also want to check in a LEE system and stack a couple straight ND filters. As I mentioned for seascapes, split ND's can be very useful, and I normally stack a 2 stop and a 3 stop together.
agreed ... love em.
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I find this set of images excellent as refernce.
http://www.bwvision.com/
Personally I use 77mm B+W 0.9 N.D filter from Adorama. That will give you 3 f-stops reduction in speed. Expensive but worth it.
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Dave:
I'm not sure what the exposure limit is for the 645D, doesn't seem to appear in the manual. I've done a 2 minute exposure with the lens cap on to check for noise - very little , a few pixels with rgb values in the range of 6, 5, 5. If you're not doing so already, I would recommend using the remote, makes the process very easy.
PS You can use two polarizers as a sort of variable neutral density.
Tom
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I'm not sure what the exposure limit is for the 645D, doesn't seem to appear in the manual. I've done a 2 minute exposure with the lens cap on to check for noise - very little , a few pixels with rgb values in the range of 6, 5, 5.
Just a quick note from my experience testing long exposures...
The lens-cap test is only so useful for a variety of reasons:
- doesn't show the effect of behind-the-scene noise reduction on texture/detail
- doesn't show drifts in color accuracy (especially shadow color) or per-channel
- if you don't cover the view finder light can make it's way in (only important when testing many-minute exposures in a normally lit room) and futz with the outcome
It's much better if you can shoot with and without a strong, high quality, ND filter and compare those two images. That's not a perfect test since you'll be adding optics which can soften detail but it's a better indication of real world performance in my opinion.
I've tested some cameras that do better in the real-world then their lens-cap test would indicate, and I've tested some cameras that do worse. I don't know and am not commenting on which is the case with the Pentax. I just though in a thread about Digital Long Exposures that a note about testing methodology might be relevant.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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You can always go out late afternoon before it get's "night" to do some long exposure tests. Even better than using the filter. Anything strange in the image would be the sensor's not the filter.
Eduardo
Just a quick note from my experience testing long exposures...
The lens-cap test is only so useful for a variety of reasons:
- doesn't show the effect of behind-the-scene noise reduction on texture/detail
- doesn't show drifts in color accuracy (especially shadow color) or per-channel
- if you don't cover the view finder light can make it's way in (only important when testing many-minute exposures in a normally lit room) and futz with the outcome
It's much better if you can shoot with and without a strong, high quality, ND filter and compare those two images. That's not a perfect test since you'll be adding optics which can soften detail but it's a better indication of real world performance in my opinion.
I've tested some cameras that do better in the real-world then their lens-cap test would indicate, and I've tested some cameras that do worse. I don't know and am not commenting on which is the case with the Pentax. I just though in a thread about Digital Long Exposures that a note about testing methodology might be relevant.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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Dave,
I shoot a lot of long exposures on MFDB and DSLR in both day and night time situations.
The best bit of kit I can recommend is a good quality 10stop ND. The 77mm can be found here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/752928-REG/B_W_1066186_77mm_110_Solid_Neutral.html
I use these filters on time-lapse sequences during the day to get the aperture open and to drag the shutter at around 2-5sec. Here's an example over water:
http://vimeo.com/24134885
I also use this filter to smooth out the water a bit when it was distracting. These still images were shot on the Phase One Achromatic Back with a 10stop ND to smooth the water a bit. The exposures were around 5-7sec...
http://www.murrayfredericks.com.au/projects/hector/index.html#1
Your biggest issue is going to be noise as mentioned in earlier posts. That's down to the ind of sensor. If the noise is too great then removing the noise will take a lot of detail with it...
Hope that all helps!
Murray
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Murray:
Wonderful images; I really enjoyed the Hector stills and video.
Doug; thanks for the tips.
Tom
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Murray: Thanks for the tips. Beautiful images. I mentioned earlier that the 77mm variable ND filter did not work (Black smudges over the entire image). I have two 77mm polarizers, one regular, one slim. Just for the heck of it I tried looking through both and rotating one to see if it would slowly get black (cross polarizers). It did not work. It darkend thinks slightly but no where what I thought would happen. Try it to see if you get the same results
Thanks
Dave
Dave,
I shoot a lot of long exposures on MFDB and DSLR in both day and night time situations.
The best bit of kit I can recommend is a good quality 10stop ND. The 77mm can be found here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/752928-REG/B_W_1066186_77mm_110_Solid_Neutral.html
I use these filters on time-lapse sequences during the day to get the aperture open and to drag the shutter at around 2-5sec. Here's an example over water:
http://vimeo.com/24134885
I also use this filter to smooth out the water a bit when it was distracting. These still images were shot on the Phase One Achromatic Back with a 10stop ND to smooth the water a bit. The exposures were around 5-7sec...
http://www.murrayfredericks.com.au/projects/hector/index.html#1
Your biggest issue is going to be noise as mentioned in earlier posts. That's down to the ind of sensor. If the noise is too great then removing the noise will take a lot of detail with it...
Hope that all helps!
Murray
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I mentioned earlier that the 77mm variable ND filter did not work
Dave
Hi Dave,
Just to clarify, that filter I linked is not the vario...it's a solid 10 stop. It works just fine on all my Canon and phase gear, I use it almost every day!!
Cheers
M
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Hi Dave,
Just to clarify, that filter I linked is not the vario...it's a solid 10 stop. It works just fine on all my Canon and phase gear, I use it almost every day!!
Cheers
M
Thanks again Murray. I am getting one.
Dave
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An Afterthought;
Strong ND filters create colour shifts, and the shifts can be quite complex. Often click balancing in post to get the white balance right can be difficult (I don't know why).
I use an expo disk to create a custom white balance when I use these filters and click balance that file in post or use 'as shot'...
M
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An Afterthought;
Strong ND filters create colour shifts, and the shifts can be quite complex. Often click balancing in post to get the white balance right can be difficult (I don't know why).
I use an expo disk to create a custom white balance when I use these filters and click balance that file in post or use 'as shot'...
M
I believe some of the color shift is due to IR from such long exposures. Tiffen has a line of ND+IR filters that reportedly clean this up, I'm getting a couple of the higher ones to see if indeed they help.
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I believe some of the color shift is due to IR from such long exposures.
Hi Wayne,
You're probably right, and IR registers in all three Bayer CFA filtered bands. Dye based filters are usually more or less transparent to IR, and that includes the filters we put on our lenses.
Lee has a dedicated 10-stop ND filter for these long exposures, aptly coined "the big stopper". Here (http://blog.robertstrachan.com/archives/844/lee-big-stopper-hitech-10-stop-nd-filter-review/) is a review. At the end of the article there is also a link to a review of an improved version of the alternative Hitech filter, in which the IR signature was apparently addressed.
Cheers,
Bart
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My 77mm B+W 10 stop ND filter arrived today. I put the 645D on a tripod with 35mm A MF lens, focused, then put the filter on for some tests. I shot Aperature priority. I tried f13, f16, and f22. Exposures were from 4 to 10 seconds. Results looked OK albeit a bit "flat" and under exposed. I will have to experiment a bit to find about how much + exposure to dial in (or just shoot in manual, and bracket). Tomorrow I am going to experiment with a polarizer, to polarize the sky, then put the ND filter over top of it. Because of the crop factor, I don't think vignetting will be a problem stacking two filters. Don't know if a polarizer will work with the ND or not.
Best regards and thanks for all your help.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
None of the auto settings will work with this filter as it's too thick...you will have to work it out first on manual. Also, check focus very carefully also as focus may be different with this filter in place. Don't forget to get a good white balance...
Good luck.
Murray
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Again, Murray-thank you. I did some more tests today: Pentax 645D, 35mm MF lens. I focused the camera with a Circular Polarizer in place. I then held the Polarizer so it would not turn, and stacked the 10 stop ND. I used f16 and Aperature Priority, and dialed in +.3, 1 stop and 2 stops. I got rather consistent exposure with and without the polarizer at +2 stops. I zeroed in by checking the histogram after every shot. It seems in the field I can start at f16, + 2 stops dialed in, then fine tune from there. The polarizer does work with the ND. I have a "Whibal" card which I have to re-learn how to use it, to help with the white balance
Appreciate your help....if I get a keeper, I will post.
Dave
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Again, Murray-thank you. I did some more tests today: Pentax 645D, 35mm MF lens. I focused the camera with a Circular Polarizer in place. I then held the Polarizer so it would not turn, and stacked the 10 stop ND. I used f16 and Aperature Priority, and dialed in +.3, 1 stop and 2 stops. I got rather consistent exposure with and without the polarizer at +2 stops. I zeroed in by checking the histogram after every shot. It seems in the field I can start at f16, + 2 stops dialed in, then fine tune from there. The polarizer does work with the ND. I have a "Whibal" card which I have to re-learn how to use it, to help with the white balance
Appreciate your help....if I get a keeper, I will post.
Dave
Hi all:
I just made a series of focus stack tests using a 645D, 35mm A lens, 1/800 sec at f8, using Helicon Focus. I focused on the nearest object visible in the viewfinder (about 5 ft away), then made 6 more exposures, the last of which was infinity (as marked on the lens)- the results look very promising for landscape/seascape work. I just received a 10 stop ND filter to use making seascapes, so the water will blur. Has anyone done focus stacking of moving objects, such as water? Might it give a similar effect?
Thanks
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Just wondering if you've enjoyed any success with the timed exposures using the 645D? I've been looking at going digital and the Pentax system offers almost everything I'm looking for. It also feels quite nice in the hand. Have you a gallery we could maybe look at? I do long exposures almost as a rule, and would like a digital system that works well in that regard.
Cheers,
Rob