Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BJNY on June 30, 2011, 09:12:32 am
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My friend C.D. alerted me to:
http://www.ventizz.de/en/pm110630.php
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Those Ferrari limited edition hassles must have impressed them.
Sounds like a good thing, hopefully more capital for r&d?
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Wait and see. I sounds pretty positive though:
"...the private equity firm is planning to invest in an "appropriate growth strategy," with the goal of developing new market segments and "Hasselblad cameras that appeal to a wider group of ambitious photographers.""
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And soon we will be able to go on holiday with compact Hasselblad camera :D
But seriously - Rangefinder Digital Camera would be welcome
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A digital version of the Mamiya Universal with exchangeable back for film or digital and electronic viewfinder.
The medium format hybrid EVIL camera ...
A dream ...
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From the release:
As a strong financial partner, Ventizz Capital Fund IV L.P. will support Hasselblad and its management team in entering new market segments as well as in the further technological development of existing product lines.
[emphasis mine]
Mirrorless Hasselblad camera? Hassy compact? Shoes?
edit: argh too slow
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It doesn't always work out for the best when bean-counters start running the show. Let's wait and see.
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Let's hope for the best. After all, Ventizz logo resembles an in-lens leaf shutter device. :D
The negligence showed during Shiro's ownership to the V system was incomprehensible. Herr Kaufman is way more intelligent than the whole board of directors at Shiro.
Eduardo
It doesn't always work out for the best when bean-counters start running the show. Let's wait and see.
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Wait and see. I sounds pretty positive though:
"...the private equity firm is planning to invest in an "appropriate growth strategy," with the goal of developing new market segments and "Hasselblad cameras that appeal to a wider group of ambitious photographers.""
:D
i wonder if that means hasselblads in red and many other colors
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I looked at this news a different way. That any group of VC's would consider buying a company whose main product line deals with medium format photography must mean someone thinks this market is not dying out.
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I looked at this news a different way. That any group of VC's would consider buying a company whose main product line deals with medium format photography must mean someone thinks this market is not dying out.
I would agree. Together with the fact that Leica and Pentax recently entered that same market.
Hopefully long term this also makes prices come down to a realistic level...
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Interesting that Ventizz Capital Fund IV L.P. was funded with EUR 450m and has invested in 39 companies...one wonders what % of that fund was payed to Shriro Group...which we prolly won't know because the cost of the transaction is undisclosed. I
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I see it another way:
Speculative money circulates through the world, looking for opportunities for rapid earnings ;)
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It couldn't be said wiser. We all wish that not again a MF player stumbles. Remember the names Carnival, Jenoptik, Chaoyi/China, MegaVision, Imacon, Dicomed? Just to speak about back manufacturers having disappeared within the last decade, and another having almost disappeared from the back business. Not to mention all the companies manufacturing for the professional photo business. All together there must be between 1/3 and 1/2 of the whole photo businesses gone. Economical forecasts are difficult, even more in troubled financial times. So the best is what Graham says: wait and see.
Thierry
It doesn't always work out for the best when bean-counters start running the show. Let's wait and see.
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Maybe an H in black? :)
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Maybe a digital XPan?
Cheers,
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Maybe an H in black? :)
:D Wow who would have thought a buy out would be needed to come up with this 'novel' idea? But you got to admit the stainless and red were pretty. But they needed to make the lenses to match...
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Interesting that Ventizz Capital Fund IV L.P. was funded with EUR 450m and has invested in 39 companies...one wonders what % of that fund was payed to Shriro Group...which we prolly won't know because the cost of the transaction is undisclosed. I
I do not think that they gave too much money for this company. They must invest a lot more to expand it, get a reasonable return, and sell with large profit, or enter the stock market. They do not do this with a good heart. What matters is cash. Profits can be huge. So they earn.
A few links that will give you the answer how to do it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity_firm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity
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Interesting that Ventizz Capital Fund IV L.P. was funded with EUR 450m and has invested in 39 companies...one wonders what % of that fund was payed to Shriro Group...which we prolly won't know because the cost of the transaction is undisclosed. I
This type of investor buys companies on a leveraged basis ... ie with borrowed money - from banks, mainly - supplementing the equity investment from the fund.
Whatever the total price, at least 50-75% of the money will come from banks.
It is exactly like buying a house ... you put 10-20% down and borrow the rest from a bank ... these guys do the same thing with companies.
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Big money is not our world. Let's stay at the photographs.
Let's wait and see what the future holds for us. Let's hope that a lot of interesting products rise.
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I looked at this news a different way. That any group of VC's would consider buying a company whose main product line deals with medium format photography must mean someone thinks this market is not dying out.
or maybe its a trophy purchase like the banker who always wanted to say "he owns " hasselblad
only time will tell if its good or bad
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Maybe they scrap the existing product line altogether and mine the patents and technology they now own to generate products marketable to the other 99% of the planet.
How many companies have been bought by ATT or Apple or Microsoft over the years for the exact same reason.
I find it an interesting coincidence that the H rebate deal at Calumet ended today. No sales tax, 500 Apple gift card. I wonder who the major stock holders of Ventizz happen to be.
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It doesn't always work out for the best when bean-counters start running the show. Let's wait and see.
That's probably the best comment of them all.
Larger market share doesn't always do great things to a brand; Mercedes created that horrid A-Class Elk and by coincidence (?), the quality of the top of the Mercedes range fell away until it became a real issue with buyers. The A-Class became the bulk purchase/fleet of the carhire department of easyjet until that was abandoned as uncompetitive; hardly an aspirational purchase anymore.
It sometimes makes sense to stay at the top and stay happy with a smaller, but better client list. It worked for me for many years; as Mrs T famously remarked, it's just like running a family business. Which, in this case, it used to be.
Greed; does nobody learn?
Rob C
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That's probably the best comment of them all.
Larger market share doesn't always do great things to a brand; Mercedes created that horrid A-Class Elk and by coincidence (?), the quality of the top of the Mercedes range fell away until it became a real issue with buyers. The A-Class became the bulk purchase/fleet of the carhire department of easyjet until that was abandoned as uncompetitive; hardly an aspirational purchase anymore.
It sometimes makes sense to stay at the top and stay happy with a smaller, but better client list. It worked for me for many years; as Mrs T famously remarked, it's just like running a family business. Which, in this case, it used to be.
Greed; does nobody learn?
Rob C
For me this is not the slightest importance. They may even sell the photographic frame. I like it your way of thinking. BUT ... For example, Porsche Cayenne, for the true fan of the brand is not the product of which he is proud. But for Porsche was a product that allowed the brand to survive, even is a key product. Thanks to the true fans can enjoy brand cars such as the 911 turbo or GT. If in this case, so be it, I have nothing against a product for the masses. I keep my fingers crossed.
As for greed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muz1OcEzJOs
;)
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If anyone here thinks that any manufacturer will have future proof financial security by selling MFD cameras to the niche MFD market then they are deluded.
I'm as sure as can be - and hope - that Hasselblad have no such delusions.
Exciting times.
Can you elaborate?
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These guys are bright and effective deal makers. They will look at Hasselblad's cost base and plan to make the company "more efficient" by reducing these costs. This is the conventional venture capital strategy for "improving" the performance of a business so that they can sell it on. This is essentially a medium term (3-5 years) strategy and ignores the long-term view that many more financially secure companies can take. They may also think that they can do a "Leica" and make the product a "must have" gadget. Well - we will see.
One thing is sure IMO and that is that there will be investment but there will also be re-structuring and rationalisation of the cost base. There will also be a focus on financial performance above all else but this may not be very short term as they will be looking at the medium term capital value of the business and the brand. That is, after all, how they make money. Buy cheap, cut costs and sell dear.
Be prepared - heads will roll!
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Now that Hasselblad has been sold it can be told that there were several companies that were in negotiations to purchase it from Shiro over the past 18 months. One of them, which I am quite familiar with, was prepared to make a serious investment in enabling the company to develop new products and technologies, not just in making a good quick return for investors.
I'm not saying that this is Ventizz's strategy. I know nothing about them. But at least that entity that was pursuing Hasselblad had photography in their blood, not just an investment strategy.
Michael
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Now that Hasselblad has been sold it can be told that there were several companies that were in negotiations to purchase it from Shiro over the past 18 months. One of them, which I am quite familiar with, was prepared to make a serious investment in enabling the company to develop new products and technologies, not just in making a good quick return for investors.
I'm not saying that this is Ventizz's strategy. I know nothing about them. But at least that entity that was pursuing Hasselblad had photography in their blood, not just an investment strategy.
Michael
I wonder if that company was a certain MFD back manufacturer which advertises on this site? If indeed they were interested I am curious as to why they did not go ahead. From their perspective it would have made a lot of sense - access to distribution, economies of scale, product rationalisation, administrative cost savings and so on all add up to a very good reason to buy. Perhaps their pockets were not deep enough?
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I'm not saying that this is Ventizz's strategy. I know nothing about them....
Thankyou for clarifying those important points.
In answer to you (and David) - I guess they couldn't afford it.
David
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If we are lucky, Hassy will do a Pentax and go mainstream, like the old Hasselblads. Who knows, given the image quality, making cameras that people can afford might actually be profitable.
This would be pretty easy to do, just get rid of the specialist dealer margins, sell direct and via box-shifters like B&H, and have three techies do consults via Skype :)
Our beloved "pros" on this forum would of course be free to continue to purchase from C1 and benefit from the local assistance of knowledgable dealers.
Edmund
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I wonder if that company was a certain MFD back manufacturer which advertises on this site? If indeed they were interested I am curious as to why they did not go ahead. From their perspective it would have made a lot of sense - access to distribution, economies of scale, product rationalisation, administrative cost savings and so on all add up to a very good reason to buy. Perhaps their pockets were not deep enough?
No. It definitively was not Phase One that I am referring to.
Michael
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In the mean time, the only thing which really interests me is when the Nikon D4 is coming out. Available light calls!
Edmund
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Unfortunately, wherever there is big money, there is only profit counts. I know the truth is scary, but such are the laws of the market.
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Finally it got to be interesting in this market. I wonder how long it will take to implement the new strategy into practice. Will it be a few months or two years. Well I'm waiting impatiently for new products :-)
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Unfortunately, wherever there is big money, there is only profit counts. I know the truth is scary, but such are the laws of the market.
That's not at all the case. Many companies value market share, some revenue, but mostly it's about stock price growth. None of those are necessarily related to profit, if at all.
And there's nothing scary about that. Let's not forget that Hasselblad and every other camera manufacturer is a business first to maximize shareholder returns, and everything else comes secondary. If the company's financials aren't in order, you won't be seeing any more of those cameras - unless one of you made millions from sunglasses and is willing to foot the bills :P
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That is interesting, even more in the light of this:
http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/news/latest/d0h4dj0000001fv8-att/d0h4dj0000001fwi.pdf
Best regards,
James
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Now that Hasselblad has been sold it can be told that there were several companies that were in negotiations to purchase it from Shiro over the past 18 months. One of them, which I am quite familiar with, was prepared to make a serious investment in enabling the company to develop new products and technologies, not just in making a good quick return for investors.
I'm not saying that this is Ventizz's strategy. I know nothing about them. But at least that entity that was pursuing Hasselblad had photography in their blood, not just an investment strategy.
Michael
This comment is painful. It reflects what I consider my main concerns (beside people, since we are in a recession I will not like people been fired).
Let see what will happen.
Best regards,
James
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snip......
unless one of you made millions from sunglasses and is willing to foot the bills :P
I don't know if RED is profitable or not, but it doesn't take a degree in economics from Yale to calculate that RED probably has sold close to a billion dollars worth of product in their short life.
I have clients that don't know what a Phase, or Pentax or Leaf is, (they probably know the name Hasselblad) but to a person they all have heard of the RED. RED has a lot of buzz.
Whether any of us want to admit it or not, that makes a difference.
RED, like the medium format companies faces pressure from the bottom from prosumer devices and unlike the medium format companies also takes heat from the top from established players like Sony and Arri and still essentially found their place.
If product was more easily available I would assume they would sell another billion quite quickly, regardless RED had the right products for the right time; A cinema camera that shoots a raw file that is affordable.
I'll admit they are quick to announce, but slow to deliver, though they do eventually deliver and compared to professional cinema cameras RED's are a bargain.
I'm all for professional cameras but I kind of wonder where medium format still cameras are going?
It took them a decade for one manufacturer to finally produce a good camera lcd, but how long will it be before the three MF makers Hasselblad, Phase/Leaf, Pentax go to cmos sensors with high iso and on camera live view, or evil viewfinders?
I haven't bought an expensive professional still camera in nearly 4 years, though I've bought a lot of expensive professional equipment in that time.
The reason is simple, I haven't needed to. That's usually how professionals buy, what they have to buy to stay competitive. The movement to motion imagery dictated continuous lighting, better motion cameras, more lenses, etc. etc, but with stills I haven't had that compelling reason to write a large check for just more file size.
It doesn't take a crystal ball to look around and see that professional image distribution and display is changing by the month, not the year or the decade and because of this we need cameras that don't keep up, but actually get ahead of the market.
You can't really have a camera conversation without talking about the 5d2. That camera kind of changed everything and forced a lot of camera makers to up their game.
Look at Sony with there $5,000 FS100. For video that camera does about 40% more for twice the price of a 5d2, but for most professionals, 40% more usability is worth twice the price.
Medium format is kind of the opposite. They may have 30 to 40% more image quality but 30% less usability for 3,4 and 5 times the price so when it comes time to buy you have that weird pause.
Buying the RED I didn't pause a second, buying the Sony I only paused for an hour to research it.
I don't know how or where medium format gets their information. I'm sure from a lot of sources, piad and unpaid though if I owned a professional camera company, I'd obviously talk to the users, but I'd also talk to the use's clients and ask them what they wanted to see in a camera.
I'm hopping that the new owners of Hasselblad and Pentax walk into the R+D room with a 5d2 and say "make our camera do everything this camera does, but make it do it better".
IMO
BC
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I don't know if RED is profitable or not, but it doesn't take a degree in economics from Yale to calculate that RED probably has sold close to a billion dollars worth of product in their short life.
I have clients that don't know what a Phase, or Pentax or Leaf is, (they probably know the name Hasselblad) but to a person they all have heard of the RED. RED has a lot of buzz.
Whether any of us want to admit it or not, that makes a difference.
RED, like the medium format companies faces pressure from the bottom from prosumer devices and unlike the medium format companies also takes heat from the top from established players like Sony and Arri and still essentially found their place.
If product was more easily available I would assume they would sell another billion quite quickly, regardless RED had the right products for the right time; A cinema camera that shoots a raw file that is affordable.
I'll admit they are quick to announce, but slow to deliver, though they do eventually deliver and compared to professional cinema cameras RED's are a bargain.
I'm all for professional cameras but I kind of wonder where medium format still cameras are going?
It took them a decade for one manufacturer to finally produce a good camera lcd, but how long will it be before the three MF makers Hasselblad, Phase/Leaf, Pentax go to cmos sensors with high iso and on camera live view, or evil viewfinders?
I haven't bought an expensive professional still camera in nearly 4 years, though I've bought a lot of expensive professional equipment in that time.
The reason is simple, I haven't needed to. That's usually how professionals buy, what they have to buy to stay competitive. The movement to motion imagery dictated continuous lighting, better motion cameras, more lenses, etc. etc, but with stills I haven't had that compelling reason to write a large check for just more file size.
It doesn't take a crystal ball to look around and see that professional image distribution and display is changing by the month, not the year or the decade and because of this we need cameras that don't keep up, but actually get ahead of the market.
You can't really have a camera conversation without talking about the 5d2. That camera kind of changed everything and forced a lot of camera makers to up their game.
Look at Sony with there $5,000 FS100. For video that camera does about 40% more for twice the price of a 5d2, but for most professionals, 40% more usability is worth twice the price.
Medium format is kind of the opposite. They may have 30 to 40% more image quality but 30% less usability for 3,4 and 5 times the price so when it comes time to buy you have that weird pause.
Buying the RED I didn't pause a second, buying the Sony I only paused for an hour to research it.
I don't know how or where medium format gets their information. I'm sure from a lot of sources, piad and unpaid though if I owned a professional camera company, I'd obviously talk to the users, but I'd also talk to the use's clients and ask them what they wanted to see in a camera.
I'm hopping that the new owners of Hasselblad and Pentax walk into the R+D room with a 5d2 and say "make our camera do everything this camera does, but make it do it better".
IMO
BC
It's quite interesting :o
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any news or announcement ?
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The announcement has been made and the news has been broadcast.
What announcement or news are you expecting?
the annoucement of new product line, what will come next ....
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the annoucement of new product line, what will come next ....
The new owners are probably still picking out wallpaper for their new office. Give them time.
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The announcement has been made and the news has been broadcast.
What announcement or news are you expecting?
I'm expecting the usual first announcement of who gets to be fired, which is expected after a takeover.
Needless to say the "useless" people customarily include some back-office nerds who were not articulate enough about the fact that they are the ones with tech savvy which underlies the products currently marketed and under development.
Their much more political bosses and product managers usually manage to save their skins, and the higher up you get the better they fare out of the universal executive/executive honor code: Economy class gets booted out the door, Business Class get to stay in their seats, First Class get golden parachutes.
The next announcement is then usually the fact that the factory is being closed down and production moved to china, software products are being cancelled which is often just a smokescreen to disguise the fact that without the above nerds production cannot be sustained.
I just wish Hassy got sold to Fuji and the end of this dumb story.
Edmund
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Hopefully any news or announcements will be made when products become available.
The main thing is to be able to learn from their mistakes. I am very pleased :)
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Don't expect any product announcements for 2-5 years.
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Don't expect any product announcements for 2-5 years.
in 5 years without wake up they will be dead
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in 5 years without wake up they will be dead
You probably do not realize that they were already almost dead. They should pray every day that someone has invested. I think that should give them a few months to release new products. The most likely product is H4D80, already well mastered H4D60 matrix, which, unfortunately, it took them 1.5 years more. But now the implementation of the larger matrix will not be a problem. Of course, these are just guesses. I am very positively to this attitude. I keep my fingers crossed
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For me personally the best, they may refine the existing products in terms of software (firmware, Phocus). I definitely do not need more megapixels
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For me personally the best, they may refine the existing products in terms of software (firmware, Phocus). I definitely do not need more megapixels
you cannot imagine an other evolution than megapixels in the MF world ?
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you cannot imagine an other evolution than megapixels in the MF world ?
I see many opportunities to develop medium format ... I wrote that for me it does not matter. But it's most likely scenario. And probably the easiest to do ... Besides, they have to catch up with market leader, right? And you can see what kind of possibilities, silver, gold, red or maybe blue paint?
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For me personally the best, they may refine the existing products in terms of software (firmware, Phocus). I definitely do not need more megapixels
Yes I totally agree - we need things like Live view, a better (much better) screen, a better tethering method or a wi-fi connection, weather proofing, VR or IS, better high ISO performance and so on. But whilst P1 is running a megapixel race HB needs to be in the game. Let's hope they all stop at 80MP and Phocus (LOL) on some or all of the above features.
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Yes I totally agree - we need things like Live view, a better (much better) screen, a better tethering method or a wi-fi connection, weather proofing, VR or IS, better high ISO performance and so on. But whilst P1 is running a megapixel race HB needs to be in the game.
P1 is running a megapixel race?? It doesn't seem that way to me at all.
Included in the IQ (from your list):
- Live View on LCD (CCD quality not CMOS quality, but better than nothing!)
- Much Better Screen (best of any pro camera (http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/01/23/resolution-of-camera-lcds/))
- Better Tethering Method (USB3, USB2, FW400, FW800 (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/))
- (better) Weather Proofing - internalized battery compartment, covers for all ports
- Better High ISO performance (up to ISO3200 via sensor+)
Plus: secondary physical controls for operation with gloves (when touch screen is not feasible), focus mask, two axis real-time-readout tilt meter, smooth thumbnail scrolling, zoom-to-specific-point, automatic perspective correction, rating/color-tag passthrough, faster shooting (up to 1.8 fps), built-in flash transmitter (no extra battery, device, cables), flash sync up to 1/1600, and countless software advancements that go hand-in-hand with the hardware/acquisition, warranty up to 5 years, .
More complete weather proofing would be nice, but I'm not sure I'd ever use a 20k+ camera in a downpour so "pretty good" weather proofing is good enough for my personal use. VR or IS would be really nice! I will applaud with whomever in medium format is able to make the investment for such an advancement. Wireless tethering would be a dream but I don't foresee any camera company including it in the next 2 years (only educated guess here), Live View that can match Canon/Nikon would have to wait until a CMOS sensor. Whatever company releases the first medium format CMOS back would have been working on it and investing in it for several (probably many) years without profit-before-release from that work/investment.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Masters Series Workshop:
New England Landscape - Fall Color (Oct 5-8) (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/06/30/nelandscape/")
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Yes I totally agree - we need things like Live view, a better (much better) screen, a better tethering method or a wi-fi connection, weather proofing, VR or IS, better high ISO performance and so on. But whilst P1 is running a megapixel race HB needs to be in the game. Let's hope they all stop at 80MP and Phocus (LOL) on some or all of the above features.
+1000
P1 is running a megapixel race?? It doesn't seem that way to me at all.
to me yes it does + live view of course
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Besides, they have to catch up with market leader, right?
Well, sort of, but not necessarily with megapixels. They can take the lead in many other ways - introduce a range of more affordable integrated cameras, or take the lead with high ISO performance, or with a much faster frame rate, or wireless tethering, or all sorts of other innovative features. I think the one area in which they really have to catch up is the high definition touch screen technology. Once people have tried that, they won't want anything else.
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or a CMOS foveon-like sensor with live-view and zoom x 10 ... something new, interesting , to give up with the middle age
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P1 is running a megapixel race?? It doesn't seem that way to me at all.
Included in the IQ (from your list):
- Live View on LCD (CCD quality not CMOS quality, but better than nothing!)
- Much Better Screen (best of any pro camera (http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/01/23/resolution-of-camera-lcds/))
- Better Tethering Method (USB3, USB2, FW400, FW800 (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/))
- (better) Weather Proofing - internalized battery compartment, covers for all ports
- Better High ISO performance (up to ISO3200 via sensor+)
Plus: secondary physical controls for operation with gloves (when touch screen is not feasible), focus mask, two axis real-time-readout tilt meter, smooth thumbnail scrolling, zoom-to-specific-point, automatic perspective correction, rating/color-tag passthrough, faster shooting (up to 1.8 fps), built-in flash transmitter (no extra battery, device, cables), flash sync up to 1/1600, and countless software advancements that go hand-in-hand with the hardware/acquisition, warranty up to 5 years, .
More complete weather proofing would be nice, but I'm not sure I'd ever use a 20k+ camera in a downpour so "pretty good" weather proofing is good enough for my personal use. VR or IS would be really nice! I will applaud with whomever in medium format is able to make the investment for such an advancement. Wireless tethering would be a dream but I don't foresee any camera company including it in the next 2 years (only educated guess here), Live View that can match Canon/Nikon would have to wait until a CMOS sensor. Whatever company releases the first medium format CMOS back would have been working on it and investing in it for several (probably many) years without profit-before-release from that work/investment.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Masters Series Workshop:
New England Landscape - Fall Color (Oct 5-8) (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/06/30/nelandscape/")
1) As for the race for megapixels:
Let's examine the facts, P1 was the first 60mpix , 80Mpix Leaf then P1 (but it's a group of P1) - can not be denied that the P1 is not participating in this race. Hasselblad releases 60mpix matrix with a 1.5 year delay. Do you want to or not take part in it as a salesman.
The rest, I'm glad that the P1 drives this market. Competition is good.
2) I can not see anything strange in the use of equipment in even the most nasty weather, if the equipment is built according to this. And if it costs 2 or 40 thousand dollars, it does not matter. It's just a tool.
3) As an American, you should have more faith. Not only the money counts in this matter, the most important are the people who make these companies. If these companies will be working right people (with unconventional thinking), determined to achieve the goal, then you can manage to overcome all barriers.(even the time) A lot of work and the right people! If we all say that something is impossible, there would be no progress.
Remember how it was said that the live view is not possible with current (CCD) technology, but P1 did do it.
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Well, sort of, but not necessarily with megapixels. They can take the lead in many other ways - introduce a range of more affordable integrated cameras, or take the lead with high ISO performance, or with a much faster frame rate, or wireless tethering, or all sorts of other innovative features. I think the one area in which they really have to catch up is the high definition touch screen technology. Once people have tried that, they won't want anything else.
Guys, please read with understanding. Sentence out of context can change the meaning ...
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P1 is running a megapixel race?? It doesn't seem that way to me at all.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Thank you Doug! I am full of admiration for your ability to turn a discussion about Hasselblad's takeover into yet another sales opportunity for P1.
Nevertheless whether it is P1's intention to run a megapixel race that is in effect what has happened. Turning to your list of features which are definitely better than the competition they still fall well short of those features available in virtually every pro-sumer and pro camera. If both P1 and HB had invested time and money in a new CMOS sensor rather than in even more MP's we may well have these features by now. HB will undoubtedly be working hard to upgrade their digital backs even further to compete with P1. When are P1 going to invest in their camera system so that it might possibly begin to compete with HB?
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Who'll win the MFD war?
Ultimately who cares? Virtually no one in the industry could give a damn, photographers will continue to pick up their Canons and Nikons and use them without giving a thought or care for MFD. The clue is in why those photographers pick up their Canons and Nikons day in and day out and it's certainly little or nothing to do with sky-high megapixel counts.
Leica kind of get it but have pretty much priced themselves out of the game. Pentax kind of get it but lack commitment. Hasselblad? Hopefully they’ve got it and with fresh investment they’ll look to expand their market rather than fight for the ever diminishing scraps at the MFD table. Phase One? Nobody outside of the industry has ever heard of them, they’ll need to get it.
Time will tell.
Let no one won, it would mean the end of the market. Can you imagine the streets of BMW brand cars only? Would such a ride? Competition is very good. Without it there would be no progress. The only thing about which you should worry about is whether the photograph survives. And if photograph survive in 10 years in which direction it will evolve. Publishing industry has long walks toward the tablet. So you will need XXL Mpix cameras? In the future, if you will need it for the packaging industry. I think so because the printing industry is undergoing a similar transformation in recent years. And the future belongs only to the packaging (paper available only in electronic form.) The only question is whether or not the packaging industry will be revolutionized, anything is possible. So guys enjoy the advantages that we now have, because the sad times will come: electric cars, the food tasteless, cameras that will do the same pictures / videos.
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Phase One? Nobody outside of the industry has ever heard of them, they’ll need to get it.
People outside the film industry haven't heard of Arri. Does that really matter?
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Well yes, I think it does.
No amateur is likely to be thinking of buying into Arriflex country but lots of them do think of buying into MFD, so the intended (and reasonably possible) markets are probably very different in the case of the two types of product.
The greater question facing the larger format still camera industry is whether or not the 'dentist bubble' might suddenly burst and take down many of those who depend on its exclusivity to make sales and stay in business. Have to say, I can't recall any people other than pro photographers wanting to lug around a Hasselblad outfit during the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s. Leica was the jewel of choice.
Rob C
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Certainly does if you are looking to attract buyers who are outside the industry.
You mean the amateur photographers?? ;)
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You mean the amateur photographers?? ;)
You mean the market segment which drives camera sales from point&shoots to DSLRs to (probably) MFDs? Or more accurately, non-professionals.
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People outside the film industry haven't heard of Arri. Does that really matter?
I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories. Some make some money, some live off other funds though run full fledge studios, but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.
Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.
Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.
Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.
I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.
Now in moving imagery it's different.
With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.
In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras. If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.
Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.
This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.
In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.
The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED? Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.
I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling. Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.
They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.
Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting. 3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in. Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.
As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.
IMO
BC
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I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories. Some make some money, some live off other funds though run full fledge studios, but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.
Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.
Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.
Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.
I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.
Now in moving imagery it's different.
With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.
In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras. If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.
Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.
This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.
In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.
The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED? Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.
I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling. Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.
They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.
Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting. 3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in. Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.
As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.
IMO
BC
I agree
As I wrote, it is not known whether the photography will be in 10 years, if so, whether it will still resemble a photograph. I'm afraid that everything is moving in the direction of "video", which is more attractive to customers. (Interactive media) Is the image presented on ipad 60Mpix will be needed? Of course not. Already, customers often decide to render the products, giving up shooting.
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I know that it is not edifying, but it shows a lot of speed changes occurring in today's world
http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/17/iphone-4-camera/
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I'm expecting the usual first announcement of who gets to be fired, which is expected after a takeover.
Needless to say the "useless" people customarily include some back-office nerds who were not articulate enough about the fact that they are the ones with tech savvy which underlies the products currently marketed and under development.
Their much more political bosses and product managers usually manage to save their skins, and the higher up you get the better they fare out of the universal executive/executive honor code: Economy class gets booted out the door, Business Class get to stay in their seats, First Class get golden parachutes.
The next announcement is then usually the fact that the factory is being closed down and production moved to china, software products are being cancelled which is often just a smokescreen to disguise the fact that without the above nerds production cannot be sustained.
I just wish Hassy got sold to Fuji and the end of this dumb story.
Edmund
How true!
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Thank you Doug! I am full of admiration for your ability to turn a discussion about Hasselblad's takeover into yet another sales opportunity for P1.
Nevertheless whether it is P1's intention to run a megapixel race that is in effect what has happened. Turning to your list of features which are definitely better than the competition they still fall well short of those features available in virtually every pro-sumer and pro camera. If both P1 and HB had invested time and money in a new CMOS sensor rather than in even more MP's we may well have these features by now. HB will undoubtedly be working hard to upgrade their digital backs even further to compete with P1. When are P1 going to invest in their camera system so that it might possibly begin to compete with HB?
How do you know that development is not ongoing in CMOS-type sensor technology and new cameras? It has already been stated by Phase One publicly that (2) entirely new camera systems are in development. I agree with Doug that the charge of Phase One's emphasis on megapixels does not hold merit, given that within the medium format segment, so many technical advances occurred with the IQ series that were not megapixel-based. Technology in large sensor products will always be behind (in certain ways) compared to prosumer, consumer or smaller sensor products due to the difficulty of scaling the sensor sizes while maintaining the same level of image quality. No one said it would be easy.
Smaller sensor products, while they are advanced in their features and capabilities, also engage in megapixel wars. Do you think that Canon or Nikon will stop at 24MP? I don't think so, and as long as they can maintain their quality levels, I see no reason for them to. It simply expands the possibilities for photographers.
I look forward to 100MP and 120MP medium format products, and believe Phase On'e Sensor Plus technology is a huge advantage when those products arrive, as they will provide 25MP and 30MP alternative capture modes. Indeed, these may be seen as large sensor 25/30 MP capture devices that provide the option for very large captures when necessary. I also hope that when these products do arrive, progress on the challenging aspects of larger chip technology will be overcome to the point that what has been worked on behind the scenes (including many of the items on your wishlist) will start to appear as existing features.
Regardless, I see nothing wrong with Phase One continuing to offer high megapixel counts - there is significant demand for these products, and while they work on the features that you, David will value higher, they produce excellent revenue for Phase One to continue profitably and also allows them to channel funds into R&D so these technologies can get to market sooner rather than later.
Steve Hendrix
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I look forward to 100MP and 120MP medium format products, ………….
Regardless, I see nothing wrong with Phase One continuing to offer high megapixel counts - there is significant demand for these products, and while they work on the features that you, David will value higher, they produce excellent revenue for Phase One to continue profitably and also allows them to channel funds into R&D so these technologies can get to market sooner rather than later.
Steve Hendrix
Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race. Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster. I met one of these customers on a photo trip. He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses. When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau. Go figure?
Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade" ;D
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Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race. Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster. I met one of these customers on a photo trip. He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses. When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau. Go figure?
Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade" ;D
Man, what do you have knowledge about the market? Even more unjust opinion is not heard. P1 is the kind of equipment for amateurs? You there in the UK you live in a parallel world, perhaps. Time to wake up and see what is the reality. And is that most advertising is-made by P1. Is that what you wrote was intended to diminish the position P1? I have sad news, the market is cornered just amateurs by Hasselblad, and now getting ready for an even stronger expansion in this market. Why this envy for the "poor" American? Just be glad that a guy who probably is not too much free time, he can use it for their hobby. In addition, he chose to shoot the landscape, not naked girls at the age of his granddaughter, which is typical for men of a certain age. I wonder why you were there? You have been sent to scout?
to take a look how to do??
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/about-hasselblad/events/hasselblad-xcursions.aspx
In topic "amature" :
http://www.hasselbladbulletin.com/uk/jun-2011/events/kamera-phocus-training.aspx
Ferrari ?? Do you know of some "photographer" who drives a Ferrari? I know a few amateurs who have such cars.
Do you know a professional who goes to such training for 19Euro or even 200Euro ? (Does not teach there)
Reviewing materials from "StudioDays" we can infer that amateurs go there.
It's fun to you?
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Peace brother. I am not poking fun at amateurs (I am one too!) or that people can buy an expensive camera if they want. I am however casting doubt on the sensibility of spending such a large sum of money on a piece of equipment and then not actually producing a print from it.
Neither am I insulting Americans (or anyone else for that matter.
My point is that we do not need more megapixels. We need Liveview, CMOS sensors and betters cameras to match the quality of the P1 backs.
:)
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This artist shows the view from the erie at the very top of the pyramid; however the middle strata of the pyramid seem to have evaporated - those guys precisely who ran motor-driven Hasselblads into the ground, kept the labs happy, and were the company's main customer. The pyramid is becoming a lighthouse, no one left except the handful of very visible stars who do international campaigns.
Let's face it, Joe Local Pro Photographer is an endangered race, the _average_ specimen is anemic, and has too little blood to feed a mosquito, let alone a pro camera company.
I fully agree with our pseudonymous lighthouse warden's conclusion: As long as Hassy have the good sense to keep their prices affordable, and parade leggy models with flowing hair in front of wind machines at the major tradeshows, they should be able to sell their cameras, which we all agree are still the closest thing which "real" MF has to an SLR.
My friends in the industry tell me that pro 35mm SLRs are now not affordable by the few remaining "normal" pros who are getting steadily poorer by the year. As a result "pro" 35mm cameras are mainly sold to amateurs. Furthermore the consumer range execs hate it because the view each such sale as cannibalizing the consumer range profits. But the use of pro cameras by amateurs seems an unstoppable trend, a bit like the appropriation of tropicalised 4 wheel drive vehicles by suburban moms. Which of course should make the Hassy guys very happy, because they have no consumer range :)
Edmund
I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories. Some make some money, some live off other funds though run full fledge studios, but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.
Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.
Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.
Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.
I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.
Now in moving imagery it's different.
With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.
In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras. If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.
Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.
This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.
In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.
The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED? Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.
I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling. Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.
They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.
Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting. 3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in. Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.
As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.
IMO
BC
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Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race. Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster. I met one of these customers on a photo trip. He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses. When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau. Go figure?
Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade" ;D
David, your affirmations for Hasselblad seem even more like sales messages than my posts for Phase One. You know I simply point out that Phase One has produced significant technical enhancements to their product far and above megapixels. In fact many of the enhancements are along the lines (though superior to) of what Mr. Grover lists in the firmware upgrade thread you re-posted for Hasselblad.
It is true that many photographers who have wealth at their disposal own Phase One products. And not all of these photographers are professionals. But the proportion who take snaps and do not even print their work is far outweighed by those who do, who work hard at their craft and who actually produce very nice images. Regardless, enthusiastic non-professionals have always been a portion of the medium format market (indeed probably always a majority). Just ask Hasselblad - I'm sure their ratio of amateur clients rivals Phase One's.
The market for commercial photography has changed to favor - even more so than in the past - smaller, more nimble formats with more and more technically advanced features. It has had to, as Edmund correctly points out, many professionals struggle to purchase even a top line 35mm system. That medium format has not kept up with these features is a reflection of the challenge to their ability to scale these features, not a desire to ignore them. As such, medium format has done well to produce products that still call to their strengths, while making them more and more useable for those that can afford them (pros and amateurs alike). In 2 or 3 years, they may very well introduce products that come quite close to what 35mm is capable of today, and yet 35mm (and smaller formats) will continue to push their own abilities even further. That's just the way it is.
Steve Hendrix
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Any news from Ventizz or Hasselblad?
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Any news from Ventizz or Hasselblad?
Yep! We are all very happy. ;)
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This morning I went out early on a terrasse to have my coffee and I had with me this little GH2 I bought for videos only.
My goal was to play and try to understand the complex menu features while having my coffee because it's the only time I would spend doing that.
I was the only one sitting at that early time. Suddely, like in a movie, I was surrownded by 7 trucks...it was a cine team. In a question of a few minutes they started to unload the
circus and the truck that was just behind my back had the cameras.
2 guys preparing an Arri Alexa. I had seen before somewhere one of the guy, probably on a plateau and we where sort of looking at each other like your face is familiar to me
but without daring saying anything.
Still drinking my coffee while looking at the guys working and forget about the camera's menu. I asked if they needed me to move and they answered politely that I could had my coffee without prob.
The guy was looking sometimes at the little GH2 on the table and I just said "you know, it takes PL mount..." that was like if he saw Jesus...
We exchanged few words, about Arri, Red One and this little Gh2. I didn't ask what was the movie because it wasn't my business and decided to live the area
because then the terrasse started to be crowded by all the prod staff having also their morning coffee.
The brands that resonate in today's commercial are Arri and Red. Nobody cares anymore about Still brands. (or very little)
The cine operator was amazed that this little camera could get Arri lenses, and the video specs. I'm pretty amazed to be honest of the still quality too. I didn't expect that considering the sensor's size.
I bought this camera for motion, because it's cheap, it's small, and it's very good. But what I didn't expect was finding the old Canon 1D 16mp file's quality in stills.
That was not a long time ago and zillion of pro editos have been shooted with this Canon if you remember. You would put a GH2 file instead and nobody would notice anything.
In other words, a serious edito could be shooted with this camera without the shade of the doubt and it will not happen simply because of a snobery factor. The pro has to look pro and the biggest, with cables and computers to tether, the best. But, like in the cine industry who needs 7 trucks to film a stupid B serie, those days are numbered IMO.
Technology has improved at the speed of light and prices are down, in gear and softwares. It's up to the manufacturers to take the train. IMO, MF is at the day I'm writting an obsolete proposal in the current form. The improvements claimed are way down the evolution of the industry and just take a look at Red's prices...it makes me think. IMO.
You know, some years ago, the usual 20MP resolution steps where cool. But now more and more people I know are tired about those tether stuff, those lcds, those vf, those higher isos and those prices and since video irrupted, the feeling that those gear are less and less representatives of the today's pro needs is more and more evident. The magic and mystic operates less and the smaller format industry is going faster and better.
I'm not making any apocalyptical statement, but this time MF industry has to go out of their little shell if they want to be fully in the race.
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David, your affirmations for Hasselblad seem even more like sales messages than my posts for Phase One. You know I simply point out that Phase One has produced significant technical enhancements to their product far and above megapixels. In fact many of the enhancements are along the lines (though superior to) of what Mr. Grover lists in the firmware upgrade thread you re-posted for Hasselblad.
It is true that many photographers who have wealth at their disposal own Phase One products. And not all of these photographers are professionals. But the proportion who take snaps and do not even print their work is far outweighed by those who do, who work hard at their craft and who actually produce very nice images. Regardless, enthusiastic non-professionals have always been a portion of the medium format market (indeed probably always a majority). Just ask Hasselblad - I'm sure their ratio of amateur clients rivals Phase One's.
The market for commercial photography has changed to favor - even more so than in the past - smaller, more nimble formats with more and more technically advanced features. It has had to, as Edmund correctly points out, many professionals struggle to purchase even a top line 35mm system. That medium format has not kept up with these features is a reflection of the challenge to their ability to scale these features, not a desire to ignore them. As such, medium format has done well to produce products that still call to their strengths, while making them more and more useable for those that can afford them (pros and amateurs alike). In 2 or 3 years, they may very well introduce products that come quite close to what 35mm is capable of today, and yet 35mm (and smaller formats) will continue to push their own abilities even further. That's just the way it is.
Steve Hendrix
Steve - I know that P1 has a great product and it is no surprise that more amateurs than pros have the money to buy this kit. As Design Freak pointed out plenty of people own Ferraris and they are not racing drivers (parenthesised with apologies). It is just that I do not think that we need to have so many pixels and, as you may recall, in a previous thread that I felt that P1 should be spending its hard earned money improving the usability of the back (live view, CMOS etc) than spending it on yet more megapixels. BTW you are quite correct my final comment was an unashamed plug for Hasselblad. ;D
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But what I didn't expect was finding the old Canon 1D 16mp file's quality in stills.
I own a GH2 as well and combined with the Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f0.95 lens it is a good, portable and inexpensive 16 MP low light solution. Quite frankly anyone sinking $40K in a Medium Format solution would expect a better low light solution than what he is currently getting from Phase One or Hasselblad.
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Steve - I know that P1 has a great product and it is no surprise that more amateurs than pros have the money to buy this kit. As Design Freak pointed out plenty of people own Ferraris and they are not racing drivers (parenthesised with apologies). It is just that I do not think that we need to have so many pixels and, as you may recall, in a previous thread that I felt that P1 should be spending its hard earned money improving the usability of the back (live view, CMOS etc) than spending it on yet more megapixels. BTW you are quite correct my final comment was an unashamed plug for Hasselblad. ;D
David - I agree in many ways. But I do know that it is difficult for a company working on new technology that is extremely challenging and that in the absence of results or shipping products, no news seems like no effort. The efforts and R&D budgets are being spent, but it takes time. In the meantime, they still must produce products that better the previous models. This is the challenge for both Phase One as well as Hasselblad.
Higher megapixels - despite the premise they are not in demand - sell products. They offer superior image quality and increased flexibility, not just scaleability. They provide solutions to markets that still do demand them, and for whom the advanced technologies of smaller sensor products are wasted on - fine art, high-end product photography, art reproduction, aerial, etc. And in Phase One's case with Sensor Plus, they also provide a high ISO solution, which justifies more megapixels, as Sensor Plus uses 25% of the total.
Most of the photographers who don't need more megapixels do not buy medium format today with less megapixels. If they ever buy medium format again, it will be for features and capabilities that have not yet come to market for medium format. But in the meantime, those who will buy medium format for the megapixels are still a critical part of the market for medium format. And this is the case for both Hasselblad as well as Phase One. Both companies are improving usability to the extent that they can, and many of these efforts are not yet apparent. But they are occurring.
Steve Hendrix
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I own a GH2 as well and combined with the Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f0.95 lens it is a good, portable and inexpensive 16 MP low light solution. Quite frankly anyone sinking $40K in a Medium Format solution would expect a better low light solution than what he is currently getting from Phase One or Hasselblad.
Why?
Why would someone who buys a Ferrari expect good gas mileage? The GH2 provides decent low light capability because of the type of sensor technology and the size of that technology, which helps to allow for f/0.95 lenses. The Honda Civic gets very good gas mileage, but it will only go so fast. That would be my expectation.
Steve Hendrix
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Why?
Why would someone who buys a Ferrari expect good gas mileage? The GH2 provides decent low light capability because of the type of sensor technology and the size of that technology, which helps to allow for f/0.95 lenses. The Honda Civic gets very good gas mileage, but it will only go so fast. That would be my expectation.
Steve Hendrix
Why not? The GH2 combo probably costs around $1.5-2K. Would you not expect a $40+K solution aimed at the professional photographer to be at the very least just as capable?
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And BTW in real life the Ferrari goes fast, in this particular case the Honda Civic is faster than the so-called Ferrari as well...
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And BTW in real life the Ferrari goes fast, in this particular case the Honda Civic is faster than the so-called Ferrari as well...
Hmmm.
The Ferrari is made for speed. The Civic is made for all around drivability. In other words, each produced to it's strength. The same with this particular case.
I may have been too literal in addressing what you stated as the expectations of someone spending $40K would be.
Steve Hendrix
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But what if you wanted the drivability and features of the Civic, but really like the paint job and logo of a Ferrari , well then Hasselblad has you covered.
Lance
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But what if you wanted the drivability and features of the Civic, but really like the paint job and logo of a Ferrari , well then Hasselblad has you covered.
Lance
Oh oh....gonna get some popcorn ;D
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But what if you wanted the drivability and features of the Civic, but really like the paint job and logo of a Ferrari , well then Hasselblad has you covered.
Lance
Well I guess that if you want a Ferrari engine in a tractor then Phase One is just the ticket
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You know a thread has run out of gas when the car analogies drive into town.
Agreed that the thread has veered off the track, and it's time to steer it back on course.
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Well I guess that if you want a Ferrari engine in a tractor then Phase One is just the ticket
:D :D
But wait - don't leave yet, they have 2 cameras coming out sometime. ;) I hope for Phase these are not based on the DF because after 4 refreshes it still is 'the tractor'. Actually, all jests aside, I have been hoping that Phase would work with the Hy6/AFi for a long time. If Phase can bring out the same level of improvement the IQ series did to their camera body, they might have something.
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Well I guess that if you want a Ferrari engine in a tractor then Phase One is just the ticket.
LOL :)
Excellent!
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:D :D
But wait - don't leave yet, they have 2 cameras coming out sometime. ;) I hope for Phase these are not based on the DF because after 4 refreshes it still is 'the tractor'. Actually, all jests aside, I have been hoping that Phase would work with the Hy6/AFi for a long time. If Phase can bring out the same level of improvement the IQ series did to their camera body, they might have something.
It has been stated that these are "from the ground up" new products. While it would be great for Phase One to have compatibility with the Hy6/AFi, I hope that their new designs are an improvement on that camera as well.
Steve Hendrix
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It has been stated that these are "from the ground up" new products. While it would be great for Phase One to have compatibility with the Hy6/AFi, I hope that their new designs are an improvement on that camera as well.
Steve Hendrix
I think that this product will surprise everyone. Even users of P1.
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Well I guess that if you want a Ferrari engine in a tractor then Phase One is just the ticket
I bet not many people here know the Ferrari tractors (which are Green BTW), known mostly for their high performance engines and great handling
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I bet not many people here know the Ferrari tractors (which are Green BTW), known mostly for their high performance engines and great handling
I was doing different things in life. Orchards are also not alien to me :P
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I bet not many people here know the Ferrari tractors (which are Green BTW), known mostly for their high performance engines and great handling
I can confirm they are very agile :)
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I was doing different things in life. Orchards are also not alien to me :P
Same here ;)
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All these guys from Phase and Leaf posting on a Hasselblad thread.
Guess you are a bit nervous. ;D
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All these guys from Phase and Leaf posting on a Hasselblad thread.
Guess you are a bit nervous. ;D
Just one more takeover and you'll all have the same boss :)
Edmund
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Why not? The GH2 combo probably costs around $1.5-2K. Would you not expect a $40+K solution aimed at the professional photographer to be at the very least just as capable?
Professionals can usually afford lights and those cameras are intended to be used in studio settings just like motion picture cameras. Sure having great low light performance opens up possibilities but at the same time you loose a lot of quality especially if you want to do post production to your image/video.
A professional workflow needs to give the ability to do a lot of post production on the image, and when you look at the output from a red or alexa compared to a gh2 (which i own) the quality difference is day and night. I'm sure once technology is available that combines all the benefits of CCD's and CMOS without the downsides of each, the likes of phase will incorporate it. Is their gear to expensive ? Sure, but getting an extra 20% out of a technology can cost a lot of money to and when demand is low it's tough to keep it cheap. The same thing can be observed with professional post production software (which i know better than cars as far as analogies go), professionals are the most demanding customers that cost a lot to keep satisfied and there is far less of them. Look at applications like NUKE or Houdini, they do what they do very well (and cost thousands) but are not nearly as polished from a UI standpoint as something adobe would make for the masses. In fact a product like After Effects does pretty much everything NUKE does and more, but the way nuke does it is worth a lot more to the people that know what they need in production and they are willing to pay for it.
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Just one more takeover and you'll all have the same boss :)
Edmund
Lol.
I doubt that. We are waaay too expensive. ;)
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LOL :)
Excellent!
No, not excellent at all: that's a Lamborghini you're thinking about. Bulls, bats, you know?
Rob C
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Lol.
I doubt that. We are waaay too expensive. ;)
I think Microsoft invested in Phase One. They have money and a history of making products which people really like to use :)
Edmund
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I think Microsoft invested in Phase One. They have money and a history of making products which people really like to use :)
Edmund
Da...., I thought that Apple :-)
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I think Microsoft invested in Phase One. They have money and a history of making products which people really like to use :)
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
It seems to me that Mac has taken the torchlight in making mass products wich people really like to use.
History is a non-stop turning wheel.
About the Larkis comparaison Nuke-after effects with MF,
Having great or good low-light capabilities is foremost a money saver, specially in commercial where hot lights are invading the setups and numbers can raise rapidly.
Nuke is more than just a luxury after-effect wich only would do all what AE can but integrated in a more pro package. I think it is oversimplified (and guess you did it on purpose).
Nuke is node based, Cineon built, 3D compositing integration is way more advanced and powerfull, supports exr etc etc...and has became the industry standart to the point that there is almost not one movie where Nuke is not involved, and oh yeah, it's not that expensive, so as Red One wich are scandalously cheap for the product-performance and even Arri Alexa keeps reasonable prices for what we are talking about.
Anyway, out of thread, sorry for that.
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Da...., I thought that Apple :-)
Yes, they are also sitting on a pile of cash that is larger than most companies market cap (65Billion USD). The interest on this alone would be enough to buy Hasselblad probably. We could end up with the iBlad...
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Yes, they are also sitting on a pile of cash that is larger than most companies market cap (65Billion USD). The interest on this alone would be enough to buy Hasselblad probably. We could end up with the iBlad...
;D ;D
Perhaps they could do a reverse takeover and we would end up with the Hasselpod?
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Hi Edmund,
It seems to me that Mac has taken the torchlight in making mass products wich people really like to use.
History is a non-stop turning wheel.
About the Larkis comparaison Nuke-after effects with MF,
Having great or good low-light capabilities is foremost a money saver, specially in commercial where hot lights are invading the setups and numbers can raise rapidly.
Nuke is more than just a luxury after-effect wich only would do all what AE can but integrated in a more pro package. I think it is oversimplified (and guess you did it on purpose).
Nuke is node based, Cineon built, 3D compositing integration is way more advanced and powerfull, supports exr etc etc...and has became the industry standart to the point that there is almost not one movie where Nuke is not involved, and oh yeah, it's not that expensive, so as Red One wich are scandalously cheap for the product-performance and even Arri Alexa keeps reasonable prices for what we are talking about.
Anyway, out of thread, sorry for that.
Yes, low light is a money saver but at the expense of image quality at the moment. As far as the nuke vs AE comparison, AE also supports EXR and a lot of the stuff AE does, but just like cheaper SLR's the implementation of those features is half assed or slow which makes their use in production (i work in commercials/film vfx) dangerous. Yes come of the consumer grade cameras have a lot of gadgets that do make life easier but many pro's rather have equipment that does less, is a lot more reliable and is focused on a few key functions that work flawlessly. As cool and inexpensive SLR video and low light photography at high ISO is, no serious post production can be done on it if quality is paramount. Perhaps 80% of the market is willing to go for good enough and does not want to spend 500% more money for a 20% improvement, but there are still people out there that turn the extra 20 percent high end gear gives into a final product that looks vastly better when compared to the rest.
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Yes, low light is a money saver but at the expense of image quality at the moment. As far as the nuke vs AE comparison, AE also supports EXR and a lot of the stuff AE does, but just like cheaper SLR's the implementation of those features is half assed or slow which makes their use in production (i work in commercials/film vfx) dangerous. Yes come of the consumer grade cameras have a lot of gadgets that do make life easier but many pro's rather have equipment that does less, is a lot more reliable and is focused on a few key functions that work flawlessly. As cool and inexpensive SLR video and low light photography at high ISO is, no serious post production can be done on it if quality is paramount. Perhaps 80% of the market is willing to go for good enough and does not want to spend 500% more money for a 20% improvement, but there are still people out there that turn the extra 20 percent high end gear gives into a final product that looks vastly better when compared to the rest.
Larkis,
I agree that the differences between AE and Nuke reside for the most part in the speed and implementation rather than in the real capabilities. A nodal based software anyway appears to me the grail when it comes to have an overview, specially on complex projects, but yes, in absolute AE would do the job in 95% it just would do it the painfull way.
About the MF look and image quality, I don't think anybody would complain about having the maximum possible IQ and larger possible files.
But honestly, it's been years and years now since photographers, MF users, are desperatly asking for serious improvements in usability and costs and if huge steps have been done in the sensors resolution, less moire etc...the story starts to feel like a remake of the same saga and a part from more MP and more consistant files (wich is nice), very little has been done in the other parts. Of course the vendors won't agree with that and could probably display a long list of those miracle improvements.
The thing is that all that turns arround the back, point! and even there we still have to tether. But talking about pro stuff, the bodies are, sorry for this expression, real toys than a serious thing, and it's been like that for ages, and it seems sadly that it will be like that tomorrow.
Talking about prices, even the big boys I know here, with a top carreer and reputation are looking at numbers since the crisis and the echo I have is that the MF brands are becoming more and more a problem than a solution in commercial (I insist in commercial) and people are very aware that the big brands are pushing technology so fast, so good and so close to the needs that the magic IQ at the expense of other parameters becomes very relative. Not everyone is in that case, no, but the tendency is there, no doubt. It's been ages now since I haven't touched a MF camera in a shooting session with a pro (and would like to).
Think that now, most professional have to think also about motion equipment. You just check the price of a 5k Epic, check the price of the latest MF back... and a quick calculation is rapidly done. We are not in 2007 anymore. The game has completly changed, there are new players, very good players, and the technology of the smaller sensors goes faster than ever.
So, if talking about passion, about craft...yes, I follow you and MF is great for that. But we should not ignore that today any commercial pro would make beneficial much more with a 1000 euros Panasonic, actually I've read some of the best Red One pros in France (http://www.machineurs.com/us/) are amazed by this Panasonic they qualified the best bang-for-the-buck, some of those guys are photographers.
IMO, the problem of this segment of the industry is that it is now too conservative, practising an orthodoxy in a world that is changing at the speed of light.
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Professionals can usually afford lights and those cameras....
Of all professional photographers that I know (fashion, wedding, product advertising, etc) there is not one that shoots medium format, that is the brutal reality.
They still might have a medium format film camera stashed away somewhere because most of them did shoot medium format in the film days.
I am pretty sure that at least half of the people shooting medium format digital now are amateurs like myself...
And I am sure that a lot of them would prefer better low light capabilities, etc over more megapixels...
Just my 2 cents...
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On the other hand, Some guys have too much photographic equipment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKpxd8hzOcQ&feature=player_embedded)
Edmund
Of all professional photographers that I know (fashion, wedding, product advertising, etc) there is not one that shoots medium format, that is the brutal reality.
They still might have a medium format film camera stashed away somewhere because most of them did shoot medium format in the film days.
I am pretty sure that at least half of the people shooting medium format digital now are amateurs like myself...
And I am sure that a lot of them would prefer better low light capabilities, etc over more megapixels...
Just my 2 cents...
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On the other hand, Some guys have too much photographic equipment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKpxd8hzOcQ&feature=player_embedded)
Edmund
brilliant!
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This is my first post on any discussion forum. I am a fairly experienced photographer, having my photographs first published nearly 50 years ago. I have worked in every popular format. I currently use Canon and Hasselblad equipment, but I have owned a full array of Nikon and many other cameras and lenses over the years.
I have seen that the purchase of Hasselblad by Ventizz has led to discussions about market share, market position, technology leadership, and the like. I am posting the following comments, because I believe that many satisfied Hasselblad customers do not speak up in the forums, because they are just that, satisfied.
I am much more than merely satisfied with Hasselblad. I am delighted with Hasselblad and its customer service. I purchased my first Hasselblad more than 40 years ago. When I moved to digital, I first used Nikon and then switched to Canon, which I continue to use for applications where a faster camera is necessary.
I have owned the H2D, H3D, and now the H4D-60, and quite a few lenses.
I couldn’t be happier with the Hasselblad equipment or the service. The images are, of course, astounding. I have never scientifically or rigorously compared Phase One and Hasselblad images. My purpose in this post is not to say one is better than the other.
I do want to state that I know from first hand long term experience that the Hasselblad equipment, its camera/back/lens integration, its software, and workflow are all astonishingly good. I think True Focus, the HTS 1.5, Series II lenses, iPad/iPhone/iPod applications, are all about as cutting edge as you can get. And now we have all the new features in the latest firmware update.
Hasselblad service is excellent. Just by way of example, when I call the Hasselblad service facility in New Jersey, I typically can immediately speak directly to a technician and be walked through a firmware update or other support need step by step. I’ve emailed David Grover on more than one occasion to ask about a recommendation or support question, and always received a prompt and informed response. I have emailed a support technician in New Jersey, and in 10 minutes received back a telephone call from the service director, who was at a meeting on the west coast, to tell me the technician was out for the day and asking if he could be of any help.
My primary Hasselblad contact has been Steve Goldsmith at Calumet in Chicago. His knowledge and customer attention are extraordinary. The first time I talked to Steve, he gave me his personal cell phone number in case I needed to reach him after hours. I have emailed him about the status of an order on a Sunday afternoon, not expecting an answer until Monday, only to have him respond Sunday evening from home. You couldn’t find a more professional or knowledgeable camera expert to deal with. I have had him return my voice mail messages on his day off.
More than once I have called Hasselblad in Redmond to check on an upgrade or inquire about a new product, and every time I have been treated as though I were Victor’s nephew.
Based on my personal experience, I don’t know how Hasselblad’s equipment, sales, or service could possibly be any better.
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This is my first post on any discussion forum. I am a fairly experienced photographer, having my photographs first published nearly 50 years ago. I have worked in every popular format. I currently use Canon and Hasselblad equipment, but I have owned a full array of Nikon and many other cameras and lenses over the years.
I have seen that the purchase of Hasselblad by Ventizz has led to discussions about market share, market position, technology leadership, and the like. I am posting the following comments, because I believe that many satisfied Hasselblad customers do not speak up in the forums, because they are just that, satisfied.
I am much more than merely satisfied with Hasselblad. I am delighted with Hasselblad and its customer service. I purchased my first Hasselblad more than 40 years ago. When I moved to digital, I first used Nikon and then switched to Canon, which I continue to use for applications where a faster camera is necessary.
I have owned the H2D, H3D, and now the H4D-60, and quite a few lenses.
I couldn’t be happier with the Hasselblad equipment or the service. The images are, of course, astounding. I have never scientifically or rigorously compared Phase One and Hasselblad images. My purpose in this post is not to say one is better than the other.
I do want to state that I know from first hand long term experience that the Hasselblad equipment, its camera/back/lens integration, its software, and workflow are all astonishingly good. I think True Focus, the HTS 1.5, Series II lenses, iPad/iPhone/iPod applications, are all about as cutting edge as you can get. And now we have all the new features in the latest firmware update.
Hasselblad service is excellent. Just by way of example, when I call the Hasselblad service facility in New Jersey, I typically can immediately speak directly to a technician and be walked through a firmware update or other support need step by step. I’ve emailed David Grover on more than one occasion to ask about a recommendation or support question, and always received a prompt and informed response. I have emailed a support technician in New Jersey, and in 10 minutes received back a telephone call from the service director, who was at a meeting on the west coast, to tell me the technician was out for the day and asking if he could be of any help.
My primary Hasselblad contact has been Steve Goldsmith at Calumet in Chicago. His knowledge and customer attention are extraordinary. The first time I talked to Steve, he gave me his personal cell phone number in case I needed to reach him after hours. I have emailed him about the status of an order on a Sunday afternoon, not expecting an answer until Monday, only to have him respond Sunday evening from home. You couldn’t find a more professional or knowledgeable camera expert to deal with. I have had him return my voice mail messages on his day off.
More than once I have called Hasselblad in Redmond to check on an upgrade or inquire about a new product, and every time I have been treated as though I were Victor’s nephew.
Based on my personal experience, I don’t know how Hasselblad’s equipment, sales, or service could possibly be any better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIk-xp3F3kI&feature=grec_index
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKyZIbPa0Gw&feature=related
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This is my first post on any discussion forum. I am a fairly experienced photographer, having my photographs first published nearly 50 years ago. I have worked in every popular format. I currently use Canon and Hasselblad equipment, but I have owned a full array of Nikon and many other cameras and lenses over the years.
I have seen that the purchase of Hasselblad by Ventizz has led to discussions about market share, market position, technology leadership, and the like. I am posting the following comments, because I believe that many satisfied Hasselblad customers do not speak up in the forums, because they are just that, satisfied.
I am much more than merely satisfied with Hasselblad. I am delighted with Hasselblad and its customer service. I purchased my first Hasselblad more than 40 years ago. When I moved to digital, I first used Nikon and then switched to Canon, which I continue to use for applications where a faster camera is necessary.
I have owned the H2D, H3D, and now the H4D-60, and quite a few lenses.
I couldn’t be happier with the Hasselblad equipment or the service. The images are, of course, astounding. I have never scientifically or rigorously compared Phase One and Hasselblad images. My purpose in this post is not to say one is better than the other.
I do want to state that I know from first hand long term experience that the Hasselblad equipment, its camera/back/lens integration, its software, and workflow are all astonishingly good. I think True Focus, the HTS 1.5, Series II lenses, iPad/iPhone/iPod applications, are all about as cutting edge as you can get. And now we have all the new features in the latest firmware update.
Hasselblad service is excellent. Just by way of example, when I call the Hasselblad service facility in New Jersey, I typically can immediately speak directly to a technician and be walked through a firmware update or other support need step by step. I’ve emailed David Grover on more than one occasion to ask about a recommendation or support question, and always received a prompt and informed response. I have emailed a support technician in New Jersey, and in 10 minutes received back a telephone call from the service director, who was at a meeting on the west coast, to tell me the technician was out for the day and asking if he could be of any help.
My primary Hasselblad contact has been Steve Goldsmith at Calumet in Chicago. His knowledge and customer attention are extraordinary. The first time I talked to Steve, he gave me his personal cell phone number in case I needed to reach him after hours. I have emailed him about the status of an order on a Sunday afternoon, not expecting an answer until Monday, only to have him respond Sunday evening from home. You couldn’t find a more professional or knowledgeable camera expert to deal with. I have had him return my voice mail messages on his day off.
More than once I have called Hasselblad in Redmond to check on an upgrade or inquire about a new product, and every time I have been treated as though I were Victor’s nephew.
Based on my personal experience, I don’t know how Hasselblad’s equipment, sales, or service could possibly be any better.
Thanks for your support!
I think it is true to say that there are 100's, if not 1000's of photographers, working and plugging away, who simply do not have the time or inclination to participate in these forums.
I meet them every week and it is not always as "doom and gloom" as some participants would like us to think.
Thanks again!
David
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Of all professional photographers that I know (fashion, wedding, product advertising, etc) there is not one that shoots medium format, that is the brutal reality.
That's funny, I know a bunch, me included. Of course I also use a 5D mkII, mostly for catalog stuff. If IQ is my main concern though and the assignment allows for it I always reach for my DB. I've also noticed when looking at behind the scenes videos of the top names in fashion they almost all use digital backs. And with good reason too, as the files hold up much better in post when you're doing heavy duty retouching.
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If Hasselblads new owners have any sense they will open up the platform again. I like the camera, when it doesn't lock up, but I've never been so sure about the backs or the software and I'm certainly not going to invest in the system on a whim.
Still seems like a dead end, one way street to me and the need for new investors just makes me think that even more.
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Have to say, I can't recall any people other than pro photographers wanting to lug around a Hasselblad outfit during the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s. Leica was the jewel of choice.
Rob C
[/quote]
I have on many occasions. One that stands out occurred in Roturua, NZ. I watched not one, but four Japanese tourists step off a tourbus with Blads on neckstraps. Still gives ne the giggles.
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If Hasselblads new owners have any sense they will open up the platform again. I like the camera, when it doesn't lock up, but I've never been so sure about the backs or the software and I'm certainly not going to invest in the system on a whim.
Still seems like a dead end, one way street to me and the need for new investors just makes me think that even more.
Nobody invests on a "whim". They talk to a dealer and take a demo, make a decision.
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I think this is an important point.
Most of the photographers I know have never heard of Luminous Landscape or GetDPI, if they do participate it tends to be on lists that are associated with the professional organisations.
It would be a mistake to think of this place as representative of the typical MFD user.
Exactly. And it is far from being an accurate representation.
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Exactly. And it is far from being an accurate representation.
Exactly :)
Why here so many British colleagues?
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If Hasselblads new owners have any sense they will open up the platform again.
Unlikely I think. Why would Hasselblad do that? Leica or Pentax don't do it either. The main profits would go to Phase One. What Hasselblad should come up with is a strategy for the existing H1/H2 owners with a Phase One back. Now that they don't sell CF backs anymore they should come up with an very interesting trade-in/upgrade offer and convert these customers into H4D customers.
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Unlikely I think. Why would Hasselblad do that? Leica or Pentax don't do it either. The main profits would go to Phase One. What Hasselblad should come up with is a strategy for the existing H1/H2 owners with a Phase One back. Now that they don't sell CF backs anymore they should come up with an very interesting trade-in/upgrade offer and convert these customers into H4D customers.
You're right! Trade-in program is not effective for more than a year. This is a sick situation. Someone who bought such H3DII 50 and wants to buy with a tilde H4D60 must pay the same money as a guest which gives H3D39. I am not surprised that people exchange for P1.
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I am actually surprised that Hasselblad does not get more involved in selling used backs. Phase One buys a used P30+ back for $6.5K and sells it again for $10K. Rather easy money. They don't even bother to upgrade the back to the latest firmware...
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I am actually surprised that Hasselblad does not get more involved in selling used backs. Phase One buys a used P30+ back for $6.5K and sells it again for $10K. Rather easy money. They don't even bother to upgrade the back to the latest firmware...
Depends which country you are in. In the UK the Pro Centre (Hasselblad subsidiary) are happy to take Hasselblad or any other equipment in part exchange.
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Depends which country you are in. In the UK the Pro Centre (Hasselblad subsidiary) are happy to take Hasselblad or any other equipment in part exchange.
In the US there was a trade-in program but I believe they cancelled it. It was not very interesting. You were better off selling the stuff yourself.
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In the US there was a trade-in program but I believe they cancelled it. It was not very interesting. You were better off selling the stuff yourself.
Or trade in for Phase ONE :P
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In the US there was a trade-in program but I believe they cancelled it. It was not very interesting. You were better off selling the stuff yourself.
Our trade in program is very much still active, worldwide.
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Our trade in program is very much still active, worldwide.
But it is not attractive...
And it should be, especially for current owners
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Geez.... come on! Isn't there anything you don't have something to complain about? I think the trade-in program isn't better or worse than that of others. Agreed trading in newer models is less advantageous than older models. But hey! Be creative and solve that differently, no problem. I am pretty sure you know how people work this out. I know I will swap my 39MS with someone elses 39 (singleshot) before trading up for the 80MP Hasselblad for instance.
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Geez.... come on! Isn't there anything you don't have something to complain about? I think the trade-in program isn't better or worse than that of others. Agreed trading in newer models is less advantageous than older models. But hey! Be creative and solve that differently, no problem. I am pretty sure you know how people work this out. I know I will swap my 39MS with someone elses 39 (singleshot) before trading up for the 80MP Hasselblad for instance.
Unfortunately, you're wrong here. Phase One has a much better deal. In hasselblad you forget that you will receive 40% or even 60% discount.
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Nobody invests on a "whim". They talk to a dealer and take a demo, make a decision.
Yes you are right, sorry that was poorly worded. I spose I wrote it on a whim. :)
Anyway to spend some more time on my comment I would say that I do need to invest, right now, in a system. That's a long term decision. So while the decision is not on a whim, it's a decision that will based on what I know and hear. So it does feel like making a decision to buy a H4D60 would be like a whim as the industry seems geared to Phase One. There used to be a time when everyone was shooting Blads with P1 backs but now there's a whole lots of Mamiyas around and not too many Blads as the old H2's have had more battery resets than they can obviously handle and sadly my beloved V System (which I've been shooting for over 15 years from new) lenses just aren't up to scratch any more. So it seems Phase One, for me, is the best choice. If you had of left the system open I would most certainly buy into an H system. It kills me that you killed off what I believe to be the best and perfect system in the V and you introduced a replacement which you closed off and ugly as hell :) . Monumental mistake in my eyes and if you had of sold a V System that forced the person to only shot Fuji, well the same would be so, a decade ago. Artists like to choose.
Regardless, good luck with Ventizz.
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Why would Hasselblad do that?
Because most photographers that I know use them, all the assistants that come go, plus the various rental companies tell me that Phase One is what people are using.
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Because most photographers that I know use them, all the assistants that come go, plus the various rental companies tell me that Phase One is what people are using.
I think it depends on how many photographers you know, where you are located and the quality of the local dealers and rental agencies. I could say that all professional photographers I know use Canon and that would be true as I don't know many. Sure Phase One has a following but globally Hasselblad is way ahead in terms of sheer volume of systems in use. BTW all MFD systems are now closed. Just try fitting a Hasselbad back to a Leaf/Mamiya system.
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Hasselblad is way ahead in terms of sheer volume of systems in use. BTW all MFD systems are now closed. Just try fitting a Hasselbad back to a Leaf/Mamiya system.
Hasselblad were. I'm telling you (and as a heavy Hasselblad user for a decent amount of years), the Phamiya systems are quickly replacing as the industry standard as the H2's are becoming older and unreliable and the V lenses being out resolved. Let's have this conversation again in a years time and see how the cards are laying.
I'm not comparing with the dSLR market.
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Really hard for me to understand that the competition treats me better than my beloved hardware manufacturer. You really should think of a better trade-in offer. Your Competition is now harvest
I'm not complaining, just pay attention to the important problem.
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I think it depends on how many photographers you know, where you are located and the quality of the local dealers and rental agencies. I could say that all professional photographers I know use Canon and that would be true as I don't know many. Sure Phase One has a following but globally Hasselblad is way ahead in terms of sheer volume of systems in use. BTW all MFD systems are now closed. Just try fitting a Hasselbad back to a Leaf/Mamiya system.
Hasselblad way ahead in terms of global sales - I am sorry, but this is not the case at all. And how would you know? And what criteria are you using? Total installed base, including legacy users? Or just total sales in 2011? 2010? Probably a pretty close call in terms of unit sales the past couple years. I could say I think Phase is still ahead, but how would I know? I do think I know enough that unit sales are not way ahead in favor of either company the past couple years.
That you cannot fit a Hasselblad back onto a Leaf/Mamiya system is not the fault of Leaf/Mamiya (or Phase). The camera is open. The back from Hasselblad is not.
Steve Hendrix
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Thanks for your support!
I think it is true to say that there are 100's, if not 1000's of photographers, working and plugging away, who simply do not have the time or inclination to participate in these forums.
I meet them every week and it is not always as "doom and gloom" as some participants would like us to think.
Thanks again!
David
1000's, not hundreds.
As widely known as this forum is, only a very small portion of the overall medium format users market is actively/visibly represented here. Even here, there is much anonymity. I've spoken to many photographers who have named the photographers in their town or city who do or would use medium format, and yet while they've said that, I've been aware they're missing countless others.
Steve Hendrix
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I can't read the much.
What are you guy talking about?
Please slow in short.
thanks.
No one is working here. ???
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No. It definitively was not Phase One that I am referring to.
Michael
Panasonic
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Hi,
Is it an educated guess, wild guess or a piece of knowledge?
Going MF from 4/3 would be a nice leap for Panasonic.
Best regards
Erik
Panasonic
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This is like a holy war that rages on in this forum from time to time.
Medium format survivalists vs. the great hordes of professionals that might, have, will, will not buy a new medium format back.
It doesn't matter except to the people that want to use a digital back, or the people that sell medium format backs.
Everybody else is just an innocent bystander because nobody from Phase or Hasselblad is going to tell your their sale figures, or future plans..
I own two medium format backs, they work fine, but all I know is my work has changed and changed quickly and until I find a medium format back that can shoot this with LED's or medium powered HMI's then I can't continue to invest in that format unless things change.
(http://ishotit.com/OXYGEN_FASHION_PARIS.jpg)
I sincerely wish them all well, because they make professional equipment and competition should move their products forward.
Still, there is no denying that the future is in stills, motion and a combination of the two. In fact I find it fascinating that both Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad us motion imagery on their websites to sell their still cameras.
I think that tells you something.
IMO
BC
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Hi,
Is it an educated guess, wild guess or a piece of knowledge?
Going MF from 4/3 would be a nice leap for Panasonic.
Best regards
Erik
A wild wish.
If MF could benefit the R&D of such a giant wich have demostrated to be very aware of tech imagery, the story would be diferent very soon, and maybe pros like Cooter or my boss(es) would invest back in the system in the future.
It's like the Sigmas...when everything just turns around their sensors...but the story is told.
I would I loved Panasonic to buy a MF manufacturer and if it was Pana Michael was talking about, I think a great oportunity has been lost.
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....as the old H2's have had more battery resets than they can obviously handle....
Regardless, good luck with Ventizz.
It's statements like this that lead me to believe that somebody (Phase One Dealer?) is feeding you bum information. Resetting a battery has no adverse affect on the battery, body, anything(!) even repeated on an hourly basis!
Any lithium battery can be prone to deliver the wrong charge information, which is why nearly every device in the land has the ability to reset them. (This includes your MacBook Pro!)
I would agree that as H2's need to be replaced, some Phase One users would then naturally buy a 645DF. Equally there are plenty of users who junked the Phase One back as they had a lot of investment in H lenses and wanted to keep using them and the superior camera body.
Thanks re Ventizz!
David
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In fact I find it fascinating that both Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad us motion imagery on their websites to sell their still cameras.
I think that tells you something.
And Red, Arri, Sony all use still images to sell their video cameras ;)
There will always be a demand for both.
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And Red, Arri, Sony all use still images to sell their video cameras ;)
There will always be a demand for both.
Yes, but the both was made by 2 different sort of professional while today and tomorrow, the both is and will be done by the same guy/team.
Convergence is the reality. I was reading an article on Vincent Laforet's blog pointing that convergence has changed the game and will be
each time the ruler. I concur with this idea, like it or not.
It reminds me when we started to get the mobile phones. A lot of people (me included) was saying: I don't need that...
Not every pro is Mario Testino, who can use a Blad and shoot Arri within the same session with a 20 peopl's team. For most of the professionals, the need to keep budgets in the reasonable and therefore the need for an all-in-one
reliable gear is the grail or at least equipment that will allow them to move forward within the current reality.
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Yes, but the both was made by 2 different sort of professional while today and tomorrow, the both is and will be done by the same guy/team.
Indeed, now the wannabes can do 2 jobs badly at the same time ;)
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/shooting-twice-at-once/
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Hasselblad way ahead in terms of global sales - I am sorry, but this is not the case at all. And how would you know? And what criteria are you using? Total installed base, including legacy users? Or just total sales in 2011? 2010? Probably a pretty close call in terms of unit sales the past couple years. I could say I think Phase is still ahead, but how would I know? I do think I know enough that unit sales are not way ahead in favor of either company the past couple years.
That you cannot fit a Hasselblad back onto a Leaf/Mamiya system is not the fault of Leaf/Mamiya (or Phase). The camera is open. The back from Hasselblad is not.
Steve Hendrix
Steve
No idea on sales but it is an indisputable fact that, as I said, the global installed user base of Hasselblad systems far exceeds those of Phamiya. Please do not dissimulate regarding the so called openness of your system. If you did have an open system then Capture One (a chargeable and very nice software package) would recognise hasselblad raw files just for a starter.
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I can't read the much.
What are you guy talking about?
Please slow in short.
thanks.
No one is working here. ???
I'm trying to keep my nose to the grindstone :0
;-)
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Okay, we are waiting for news. I hope that will be their lot with the new capital.
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Just as a matter of interest would anyone buy a 'blad now before the dust settles and we find out what the future is going to look like?
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Just as a matter of interest would anyone buy a 'blad now before the dust settles and we find out what the future is going to look like?
As far as I'm concerned, rather a current Blad than an upgrade to that Mamiya.
I don't have anything against Phase backs, apart from the dinky screen. But that body is a PC.
Edmund
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Just as a matter of interest would anyone buy a 'blad now before the dust settles and we find out what the future is going to look like?
Perhaps they need a camera that works now? There's always a new model around the corner. Hasselblad is no different in that respect.
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I wonder that why PR does not work now. Prior to the sale were very active. Now, silence. This can result in stopping the sale for several months, if the president did not present a specific development plans. Customers will wait for the news. But this is obviously my opinion.
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Just as a matter of interest would anyone buy a 'blad now before the dust settles and we find out what the future is going to look like?
I don't see why not. The H4D-40 is an excellent camera and after it receives the firmware upgrade that recently was made available for the H4D-60 it will be even better. In my eyes it is easily as good a solution as the corresponding Phase One 645DF + IQ140 combo.
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Graham,
All that is not new. In any profession, each time a craft is instaured and settled comes the orthodoxy.
Then, every X time comes a revolution that gives a kick in the a.s and clean the spider webs and dust.
And each time we hear the same things: that's not going to work, it's gona be crap, this is not profesional etc...
Do you remember AF ? I remember the reactions although I was young...now you talk to the pros to shoot manual and they all bark...
Same will happen with convergence and there will be very good pros at it and in a question of years nobody will remember anymore the stills-only period.
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I don't see why not. The H4D-40 is an excellent camera and after it receives the firmware upgrade that recently was made available for the H4D-60 it will be even better. In my eyes it is easily as good a solution as the corresponding Phase One 645DF + IQ140 combo.
Because we do not know whether it will cut prices. Or that it will be presented H5D in autumn....
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I wonder that why PR does not work now. Prior to the sale were very active. Now, silence. This can result in stopping the sale for several months, if the president did not present a specific development plans. Customers will wait for the news. But this is obviously my opinion.
I think some discounts will quickly solve the waiting issue if it exists. Price the H4D30 at $6000 and you'll sell a bunch of them.
Of course, if the customers are waiting for the discounts, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy :)
I would expect an announcement of some minor upgrades, eg. the H4D60 screen on the low-end models, which would also justify a discount on the current range. And in the mean time, some backroom meetings in smoky rooms with the competition do decide what the next sensors will need to do, and what will happen to dealer margins. Two can tango.
Edmund
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Because we do not know whether it will cut prices. Or that it will be presented H5D in autumn....
The same thing could be said of Phase, why buy a 645 DF now while there are 2 new bodies around the corner...
There is always going to be rumors about the next thing...
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I don't see why not. The H4D-40 is an excellent camera and after it receives the firmware upgrade that recently was made available for the H4D-60 it will be even better. In my eyes it is easily as good a solution as the corresponding Phase One 645DF + IQ140 combo.
If not better. ;)
While I appreciate Mr. Freaks armchair analysis, I can assure you the H4D line is as competitive as it was before any announcements.
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On a point of information, here is more, albeit older, relevant news.
http://www.gim-international.com/news/id5374-Teledyne_Technologies_to_Acquire_DALSA.html (http://www.gim-international.com/news/id5374-Teledyne_Technologies_to_Acquire_DALSA.html)
I wonder whether one can make an MF camera without a sensor; Kodak and Teledyne probably both have other larger fish to fry. In this context, the Ventizz buy-out is in fact reassuring because they are smart guys and wouldn't invest in a dead end.
However I don't think either Kodak or Dalsa will be investing in true Liveview or video capable CMOS MF sensor unless this is technology they can recycle from another platform. So w're probably going to be looking at more of the same in the near future.
Or maybe RED will be the last billionaire standing :)
Edmund
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My question wasn't really whether there will be new models released soon or prices dropped but rather whether it's worth waiting to see if the current dealership, warranty, etc structure will remain. I wouldn't want to invest in something which might have the carpet yanked out from underneath it in a years time whether it be in a change of corporate structure or a new system with the old one unsupported after time or whatever. I'm thinking it might be worth waiting a bit if you require not just a camera but also the ability to buy into a brands philosophy.
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If not better. ;)
While I appreciate Mr. Freaks armchair analysis, I can assure you the H4D line is as competitive as it was before any announcements.
Thanks :D Well-paid job I would not refuse.
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My question wasn't really whether there will be new models released soon or prices dropped but rather whether it's worth waiting to see if the current dealership, warranty, etc structure will remain. I wouldn't want to invest in something which might have the carpet yanked out from underneath it in a years time whether it be in a change of corporate structure or a new system with the old one unsupported after time or whatever. I'm thinking it might be worth waiting a bit if you require not just a camera but also the ability to buy into a brands philosophy.
Nobody knows. I do not know, I know that everything is possible. In particular, the announced expansion into new markets. Alleged that the mass market products. They can change the sales model: http://www.hasselbladusastore.com/ Who knows. Wait and see.
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It's statements like this that lead me to believe that somebody (Phase One Dealer?) is feeding you bum information. Resetting a battery has no adverse affect on the battery, body, anything(!) even repeated on an hourly basis!
Any lithium battery can be prone to deliver the wrong charge information, which is why nearly every device in the land has the ability to reset them. (This includes your MacBook Pro!)
I would agree that as H2's need to be replaced, some Phase One users would then naturally buy a 645DF. Equally there are plenty of users who junked the Phase One back as they had a lot of investment in H lenses and wanted to keep using them and the superior camera body.
Thanks re Ventizz!
David
Actually, no, that's my growingly frustrating experience with H2's. It just ends up locking up. Not syncing with the flash, not firing, stops communicating with the backs. It happens 1-4 times during a shoot. The remedy is to take the battery out, the lens off, the back off, put it all back on and hope for the best.
I use quite alot of different assistants and they all know what to do when it happens so it's common place and a known issue.
It is otherwise a good system and I've kept using it despite of the frustration (which at important times in the shoot can be really annoying). My only other gripe is the lenses could be more compact and it could be less plasticky feeling. To be honest I wish you would create some new lenses for the V Bodies.
Am I complaining? respectfully, yup. :)
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Actually, no, that's my growingly frustrating experience with H2's. It just ends up locking up. Not syncing with the flash, not firing, stops communicating with the backs. It happens 1-4 times during a shoot. The remedy is to take the battery out, the lens off, the back off, put it all back on and hope for the best.
I use quite alot of different assistants and they all know what to do when it happens so it's common place and a known issue.
It is otherwise a good system and I've kept using it despite of the frustration (which at important times in the shoot can be really annoying). My only other gripe is the lenses could be more compact and it could be less plasticky feeling. To be honest I wish you would create some new lenses for the V Bodies.
Am I complaining? respectfully, yup. :)
Many would buy these lenses ...
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...However I don't think either Kodak or Dalsa will be investing in true Liveview or video capable CMOS MF sensor unless this is technology they can recycle from another platform. So w're probably going to be looking at more of the same in the near future.
Or maybe RED will be the last billionaire standing :)
Edmund
My thoughts exactly.
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I'm sure the dealers are shaking in their boots. I'm sure Hassy could do without the dealers if they wanted to. In the end the question is whether the market is price-sensitive or not, ie. whether lowering prices by 30% would increase sales. My guess is that working photographers are VERY sensitive to price, but the very rich amateurs are not. Normal hobby photographers are price sensitive as the large used-camera market demonstrates.
Edmund
My question wasn't really whether there will be new models released soon or prices dropped but rather whether it's worth waiting to see if the current dealership, warranty, etc structure will remain. I wouldn't want to invest in something which might have the carpet yanked out from underneath it in a years time whether it be in a change of corporate structure or a new system with the old one unsupported after time or whatever. I'm thinking it might be worth waiting a bit if you require not just a camera but also the ability to buy into a brands philosophy.
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In a period of crisis, the only marquet that grows is the luxury one. (and the Lidl supermarkets) As always.
As you pointed, we will see more of the same saga in the next years for sure. Nothing groundbreaking, none of the expected features but breaking the 100MP barrier. But we might see the marketing deps working hard in puting those brands names in the luxury hobbyists more than ever. Those hobbyists will be the one who will get the workshops. New workshops in Abu Dabi, in Monaco and Cancun and it will keep people jobs.
You'll see a lot of imagination in that terrain yes, technologically very little but in that terrain we will soon have new Ferrari's style releases. A Louis Vuitton is still missing.
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Fred,
You and I we can get a couple of models, and teach a workshop. In the end the success of the workshop depends on the models :)
Actually, I'm thinking of taking a workshop myself (not fashion) but maybe I should just come for a week and assist in Spain :)
Edmund
In a period of crisis, the only marquet that grows is the luxury one. (and the Lidl supermarkets) As always.
As you pointed, we will see more of the same saga in the next years for sure. Nothing groundbreaking, none of the expected features but breaking the 100MP barrier. But we might see the marketing deps working hard in puting those brands names in the luxury hobbyists more than ever. Those hobbyists will be the one who will get the workshops. New workshops in Abu Dabi, in Monaco and Cancun and it will keep people jobs.
You'll see a lot of imagination in that terrain yes, technologically very little but in that terrain we will soon have new Ferrari's style releases. A Louis Vuitton is still missing.
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Steve
No idea on sales but it is an indisputable fact that, as I said, the global installed user base of Hasselblad systems far exceeds those of Phamiya. Please do not dissimulate regarding the so called openness of your system. If you did have an open system then Capture One (a chargeable and very nice software package) would recognise hasselblad raw files just for a starter.
David, if you are referring to the digital back portion of the system, it is not a fact, it is a disputed claim on your part, based on ....? If you only mean the camera system, there may be more installed Hasselblad cameras (but do you mean H series? V series? All Hasselblad cameras combined?), but then again, are you also counting all Mamiya/Phase cameras? Mamiya RZ? Mamiya RB?
Either way, I took your meaning to be installed Hasselblad H systems, like an H4D (or any system with a Hasselblad/Imacon back on it), compared to any system with a Phase One digital back. In this case, there is no question that there are far more installed users for Phase One. I think 2009/2010 sales may have been close. However, in 2011, I am pretty confident sales are in favor of Phase One, based on record sales for Phase One (and also for us).
I don't know what you mean about your open system comment. You brought up that Phase One is not open because a Hasselblad closed back will not fit on Phase One's open platform camera. And this is the fault of Phase One? Excuse me?
And, just for the record, I haven't ever made a really big deal about "openness", "freedom of choice", "closed systems", etc. Phase One uses that to its marketing advantage in reaction to Hasselblad becoming a proprietary system. No reason for them not to, and there certainly are valid points to it. However, Phase One wasn't really saying much about open systems until Hasselblad made this decision. So it has never really been presented as a feature, but rather, as a competitive response. Even when I sold Hasselblad the most I said about the situation was that it was "unfortunate" that Hasselbld chose this path, however they felt this was the best direction for them. I've never really disputed whether that was the most appropriate or optimal path forward for them.
Even though I sell Phase One products, I have taken the position of not having a dog in the "open vs closed" fight. It is what it is. Phase One remains on the path of offering digital backs for any camera that will accept them and also offering a camera that will accept any digital back on the market made for it. That is ..... pretty open. Hasselblad has taken a proprietary (closed, to some...) path and does not create cameras or digital backs that work on any other system than it's own (without 3rd party adapters, etc). That is the way it is - make your choice.
But I agree (and have in the past) that you could make a lot of open vs closed arguments and Capture One not being open to Hasselblad files could indeed be one of them. Sometimes closed vs open comes down to - is the party that does not have access willing to agree to the terms of the party that does? Or was the decision to not offer that access part of the strategy from the start? These questions often remain unanswered. The biggest issue was the initial decision, which pissed off many existing Hasselblad H users with Phase/Leaf/Sinar backs who found that lenses were being introduced that they could not use with their system. Since they already bought in, they had a fair gripe. But they were the "collateral damage" of the decision. That is largely in the past - these days, it's very clear where you're headed with either system, so new buyers have the choice in front of them, rather than getting caught up after they've made their investment.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
I agree with you. We can cut the BS. We now have moved to two closed ecosystems de facto, just like we have brands N and C in the 35mm world. There's no point in allocating blame or going back in history.
Edmund
But I agree (and have in the past) that you could make a lot of open vs closed arguments and Capture One not being open to Hasselblad files could indeed be one of them. Sometimes closed vs open comes down to - is the party that does not have access willing to agree to the terms of the party that does? Or was the decision to not offer that access part of the strategy from the start? These questions often remain unanswered. The biggest issue was the initial decision, which pissed off many existing Hasselblad H users with Phase/Leaf/Sinar backs who found that lenses were being introduced that they could not use with their system. Since they already bought in, they had a fair gripe. But they were the "collateral damage" of the decision. That is largely in the past - these days, it's very clear where you're headed with either system, so new buyers have the choice in front of them, rather than getting caught up after they've made their investment.
Steve Hendrix
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In a period of crisis, the only marquet that grows is the luxury one. (and the Lidl supermarkets) As always.
As you pointed, we will see more of the same saga in the next years for sure. Nothing groundbreaking, none of the expected features but breaking the 100MP barrier. But we might see the marketing deps working hard in puting those brands names in the luxury hobbyists more than ever. Those hobbyists will be the one who will get the workshops. New workshops in Abu Dabi, in Monaco and Cancun and it will keep people jobs.
You'll see a lot of imagination in that terrain yes, technologically very little but in that terrain we will soon have new Ferrari's style releases. A Louis Vuitton is still missing.
It's scary, but I think you're right. See this:
http://www.pentaximaging.com/about-us.aspx?p=press&pid=PENTAXANNOUNCESLIMITEDEDITION645D20110712152451
Manufacturers arranged a contest for the ugliest camera?
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Steve,
Let's cut the BS. We now have moved to two closed ecosystems de facto, just like we have brands N and C in the 35mm world. There's no point in allocating blame or going back in history.
Edmund
If you mean the systems are closed because there are so few choices you can buy new today, then yes, I would say trumpeting Open for buying new products, putting all sorts of backs on all sorts of cameras is yes, BS (though I am not the one trumpeting it). If one buys a new Phase One camera, what choices other than Phase (or Leaf) digital backs do they have with new products going forward? Yes, few, it's an overstated advantage.
But from the standpoint of the system itself - yes it (the Phase/Mamiya) is open. Keep in mind, many of our clients still buy new Phase One/Leaf digital backs and put them on legacy camera systems. Many put older Phase/Leaf (even a few Sinar/Imacon) digital backs on new Phase One/Mamiya camera systems.
I'm not the one trumpeting "open systems vs closed". These are just the facts. And if you read my posts on the topic now and historically, you'll see that it's not been me who's assigned blame. I'm just stating facts, and always in response to someone else bringing up the topic.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
I edited my post. I wholly agree with you. Looking forward, people should realize it's now a bipolar world, although legacy systems support is good, as you mention.
Edmund
If you mean the systems are closed because there are so few choices you can buy new today, then yes, I would say trumpeting Open for buying new products, putting all sorts of backs on all sorts of cameras is yes, BS (though I am not the one trumpeting it). If one buys a new Phase One camera, what choices other than Phase (or Leaf) digital backs do they have with new products going forward? Yes, few, it's an overstated advantage.
But from the standpoint of the system itself - yes it (the Phase/Mamiya) is open. Keep in mind, many of our clients still buy new Phase One/Leaf digital backs and put them on legacy camera systems. Many put older Phase/Leaf (even a few Sinar/Imacon) digital backs on new Phase One/Mamiya camera systems.
I'm not the one trumpeting "open systems vs closed". These are just the facts. And if you read my posts on the topic now and historically, you'll see that it's not been me who's assigned blame. I'm just stating facts, and always in response to someone else bringing up the topic.
Steve Hendrix
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Fred,
You and I we can get a couple of models, and teach a workshop. In the end the success of the workshop depends on the models :)
Actually, I'm thinking of taking a workshop myself (not fashion) but maybe I should just come for a week and assist in Spain :)
Edmund
If you actually want to assist in Madrid touching a MF gear, forget it...it's been ages since I haven't seen one in action. But I'm far to know every cat on the block.
Doing workshops? Well, I'm not sure it's the model by the way. I think if you do workshops without MF something will be missing because in the end it's always the same story. When they pay, people want the biggest high-end possible. It would be completly logical to have a super expensive top-model and entry-level cameras, but you generaly have "entry-level" models with the super expensive gear. People in workshops goes for the gear in general.
Anyway, if you pass by Madrid, send me a mail.
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Actually, no, that's my growingly frustrating experience with H2's. It just ends up locking up. Not syncing with the flash, not firing, stops communicating with the backs. It happens 1-4 times during a shoot. The remedy is to take the battery out, the lens off, the back off, put it all back on and hope for the best.
I use quite alot of different assistants and they all know what to do when it happens so it's common place and a known issue.
It is otherwise a good system and I've kept using it despite of the frustration (which at important times in the shoot can be really annoying). My only other gripe is the lenses could be more compact and it could be less plasticky feeling. To be honest I wish you would create some new lenses for the V Bodies.
Am I complaining? respectfully, yup. :)
And you blame this on the H2 and not the digital back automatically?
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And you blame this on the H2 and not the digital back automatically?
I was wondering, too. Several H bodys and Leaf backs here, no probs at all. (May be because we don´t change the assistants ;D )
Cheers, Ulf
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If you actually want to assist in Madrid touching a MF gear, forget it...it's been ages since I haven't seen one in action. But I'm far to know every cat on the block.
Doing workshops? Well, I'm not sure it's the model by the way. I think if you do workshops without MF something will be missing because in the end it's always the same story. When they pay, people want the biggest high-end possible. It would be completly logical to have a super expensive top-model and entry-level cameras, but you generaly have "entry-level" models with the super expensive gear. People in workshops goes for the gear in general.
Anyway, if you pass by Madrid, send me a mail.
I think if we really wanted to do this, we could probably ask people to bring their own gear, apart from lights; we supply model(s), style help, and makeup.
Edmund
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And you blame this on the H2 and not the digital back automatically?
And you, automatically, will blame anything but the camera?
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And you, automatically, will blame anything but the camera?
I am suggesting it could be either, but it is easier to blame the camera!
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I am suggesting it could be either, but it is easier to blame the camera!
Blame is irrelevant. No other system I have tried has the same issue.
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And Red, Arri, Sony all use still images to sell their video cameras ;)
There will always be a demand for both.
You know Graham, to some extent I agree with you. There is still demand for horseshoes, it's just not a thriving industry.
As the obvious lover of medium format, I have no issue with what works for you . . . as long as it does work for you.
Are you getting the work, billing, commissions, that you want, then that's great . . . carry on, though for a long list of photographers, the transition from stills to motion has gone from a nice option to a mandatory demand from clients.
Does that make any artist good or bad in both genre's? I guess it depends on the artist, but you can't deny that video is everywhere and it wasn't 7 years ago, even 5.
Yes Arriflex and RED show still images of their products, but they also show motion imagery, because that's what their cameras do, though you have to recognize as a business person, and I assume you are a business person, there is only so much money in an overall advertising budget and how it's parceled out depends on what medium will get the most exposure.
Today, my clients feel that motion is the best alternative because they can carry their message in full and it will play across various mediums that costs $200,000 for 30 seconds, to web play that costs $5,000 to free.
Print and still photography has taken a hit like never before. Yes print and stills continue to be viable in certain arenas, but I know my still estimates and billing are more competitive (read that it takes 6 estimates to be awarded a project) than ever and my motion based projects are larger than ever.
So to move forward and continue to be profitable many of us chose to offer more.
As a business person there is only so much money I'm willing to spend each year in equipment so when it comes time to write checks for a stills only camera that can cost $40,000 and have limited use, I have to give it much more thought than 5 years ago because moving to higher end motion is expensive.
A RED One is $25,000, add any lens kit is another $10,000 to three times that. then you add on camera and field monitors, sound equipment, support devices, larger more capable computers, DIT stations, continuous lights and this year alone we will have spent $185,000 at minimum.
If I add a new Epic that's another $58,000 so that kind of tells you where the money is going.
For my retoucher that was making a pretty good living off of me and my clients they are also marginalized because rather than us send out the 45 images per project for major work, I'm now spending more with effects and editorial houses . . . once again there is only so much room in the budget.
Now how does this relate to hasselblad? I guess it depends on them and their new owners, but unless they want to continue to push more to amateurs than professionals, I would think their next product line would be continuous light friendly at minimum, offer video if they really want to gain share.
Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Olympus and Nikon recognize this and are spending more money than I can count to meet the demand. In fact the only venerable still camera companies I know that have not added motion capabilities are the medium format brands and Leica.
That has to tell you something.
In business the tail does not wag the dog. If the client writing the check has moved their attention to another genre we all have the option of moving in that direction or watching our billings deteriorate.
IMO
BC
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Blame is irrelevant. No other system I have tried has the same issue.
Let's be fair here. You have had an experience with your H2 system that is not at all typical of all other users. I have owned multiple Hasselblad systems over the years and have never had any of the problems you have described. Sometimes you are just unlucky - these are after all just electro-mechanical devices after all.
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You know Graham, to some extent I agree with you. There is still demand for horseshoes, it's just not a thriving industry.
As the obvious lover of medium format, I have no issue with what works for you . . . as long as it does work for you.
Are you getting the work, billing, commissions, that you want, then that's great . . . carry on, though for a long list of photographers, the transition from stills to motion has gone from a nice option to a mandatory demand from clients.
Does that make any artist good or bad in both genre's? I guess it depends on the artist, but you can't deny that video is everywhere and it wasn't 7 years ago, even 5.
Yes Arriflex and RED show still images of their products, but they also show motion imagery, because that's what their cameras do, though you have to recognize as a business person, and I assume you are a business person, there is only so much money in an overall advertising budget and how it's parceled out depends on what medium will get the most exposure.
Today, my clients feel that motion is the best alternative because they can carry their message in full and it will play across various mediums that costs $200,000 for 30 seconds, to web play that costs $5,000 to free.
Print and still photography has taken a hit like never before. Yes print and stills continue to be viable in certain arenas, but I know my still estimates and billing are more competitive (read that it takes 6 estimates to be awarded a project) than ever and my motion based projects are larger than ever.
So to move forward and continue to be profitable many of us chose to offer more.
As a business person there is only so much money I'm willing to spend each year in equipment so when it comes time to write checks for a stills only camera that can cost $40,000 and have limited use, I have to give it much more thought than 5 years ago because moving to higher end motion is expensive.
A RED One is $25,000, add any lens kit is another $10,000 to three times that. then you add on camera and field monitors, sound equipment, support devices, larger more capable computers, DIT stations, continuous lights and this year alone we will have spent $185,000 at minimum.
If I add a new Epic that's another $58,000 so that kind of tells you where the money is going.
For my retoucher that was making a pretty good living off of me and my clients they are also marginalized because rather than us send out the 45 images per project for major work, I'm now spending more with effects and editorial houses . . . once again there is only so much room in the budget.
Now how does this relate to hasselblad? I guess it depends on them and their new owners, but unless they want to continue to push more to amateurs than professionals, I would think their next product line would be continuous light friendly at minimum, offer video if they really want to gain share.
Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Olympus and Nikon recognize this and are spending more money than I can count to meet the demand. In fact the only venerable still camera companies I know that have not added motion capabilities are the medium format brands and Leica.
That has to tell you something.
In business the tail does not wag the dog. If the client writing the check has moved their attention to another genre we all have the option of moving in that direction or watching our billings deteriorate.
IMO
BC
Yes yes and triple yes! (no pun intented with the US qualification triple A)
I'm more than surprised that this is not more commented in the forum. A part from Coot and very few others, almost nobody talks about motion
and it seems that almost nobody's concern...but here, people are really concerned because it's the reality. I guess that James doesn't live on Mars.
Here the situation is exactly the same as Cooter described. Clients want motion because they think they can share the message better.
And clients want motion because users want motion (or respond better to).
I think that there is a place for stills of course and, as an experienced user pointed before in this forum, a proper
high-end still campaign is generating today more profit that a low-end motion one.
But... the tendency is what james describes and it will never comes back.
The point will be soon generalized that printed campaigns will be extracted directly from stills, and it already happens. ADs couldn't care less about
res because if you play the footage and the person sees a still within the motion that can sell the message better, grainy or not grainy, res or not,
magic color transition or not, it's not their business.
it will be done. And you have as much frames-per-sec to choose from.
The tendency is that motion leads. Then, let's see about the stills. A few years ago it was just the opposite.
The apparition of Alexa in the cine spheres is also a revolution because those guys are very film orientated.
And they don't even shoot ArriRaw for costs reasons but ProRes in most of the cases.
Now in the video houses that want to move forward are investing mostly in Red workflow and to some extend Arri, but
I'm hearing more and more discutions that the tendency goes in favor of Red because of costs but also because
Arri choosed the film-like approach and the new generation is somewhere saying "F...K the film-like look.
They get 4 or 5K with the Red at a cost of a MF back because in most of the cases those houses had already the lenses.
And Canon or Sony or Pana will bring higher resolution in both stills and probably very soon the first "consumer" Raw video.
You don't have to be a fakir, this is not guessing, it's the logical step we all know will happen soon. Just a question of months.
In all that panorama, I see clearly that the photographers here who are resisting to motion are marginalized, no matter their
reputation, and pushed to do those kind of pink-press like Bilt or Hola magazines, shooting princes and princesses in their
charity dinner, or stars in bathing suits kisses etc...but less and less serious brand campaigns fall in their hands.
In Spain, among the major newpapers, just one bet on high quality journalistic stills. Truly high-level stills I must say, but it is the only
survival of this sort of craft and they are also going motion.
The problem is not if that's sad or not, if good or not, it's simply there.
I think the MF brands can fully play a role if they change their mentalities, and not just being marginalized on Museums or Art Galleries needs. The problem that I see is that
they know that there is a market in the luxury to exploit. Fair enough. But in the end they would need capitals of bigger groups to invest
in R&D and move forward the machinery to be fully part of this revolution and not just a sort of luxury niche that reminds me a lot the high-end HiFi lamp amps.
In the secrecy of the next years plans, we don't know anything about their intentions and it seems that signs are only telling that what we've
seen so far will be what we will see tomorrow.
So the questions are probaly within the after-tomorrow, and hope they will do well.
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You know Graham, to some extent I agree with you....
I agree with you that the still photography market does not have the same growth potential that film does, but I don't necessarily agree that photographers should therefore start shooting video.
Video requires different abilities and a different way of thinking (a lot of photographers have tried to direct a film and fail), different and much more expensive equipment and a different production team, so it is basically opening a new business alongside your existing one. Some take the attitude that you should just follow the boom industries in life. I know people who keep switching careers to try and ride a boom wave (e.g. real estate to IT) but their heart is never in their job. To me that raises questions about why people are doing photography in the first place. I was a lawyer and investment banker and decided to do something I loved doing instead of working just for a pay check. So photography was never about making money to me, and photography has not been a well paid profession in general (especially not the last decade or two) so that leads me to believe that most other photographers are not in it just for the money either. In other words, it's not a professional that people would slide into for the money, or leave for a better offer, it's more of a calling or passion. If you are just looking for a boom industry, why video production and not something completely different and frankly more promising? Personally I think video will soon be flooded with wannabes as well as more and more people upgrade to video-capable DSLRs, and the prices for bread and butter work will tumble. There will always be a place for real talent, but you could say the same about stills photography.
Then there are other issues. Do you market yourself as a stills or video producer? I would personally be turned off by a 'jack of all trades'. For the clients who don't mind, why would they come to the photographer and add video to the brief rather than asking the film production house to add stills? Convergence is a two way street.
I'm sure you are doing what works for you and your clients, but I don't see it working for everyone.
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I agree with you that the still photography market does not have the same growth potential that film does, but I don't necessarily agree that photographers should therefore start shooting video.
Video requires different abilities and a different way of thinking (a lot of photographers have tried to direct a film and fail), different and much more expensive equipment and a different production team, so it is basically opening a new business alongside your existing one. Some take the attitude that you should just follow the boom industries in life. I know people who keep switching careers to try and ride a boom wave (e.g. real estate to IT) but their heart is never in their job. To me that raises questions about why people are doing photography in the first place. I was a lawyer and investment banker and decided to do something I loved doing instead of working just for a pay check. So photography was never about making money to me, and photography has not been a well paid profession in general (especially not the last decade or two) so that leads me to believe that most other photographers are not in it just for the money either. In other words, it's not a professional that people would slide into for the money, or leave for a better offer, it's more of a calling or passion. If you are just looking for a boom industry, why video production and not something completely different and frankly more promising? Personally I think video will soon be flooded with wannabes as well as more and more people upgrade to video-capable DSLRs, and the prices for bread and butter work will tumble. There will always be a place for real talent, but you could say the same about stills photography.
Then there are other issues. Do you market yourself as a stills or video producer? I would personally be turned off by a 'jack of all trades'. For the clients who don't mind, why would they come to the photographer and add video to the brief rather than asking the film production house to add stills? Convergence is a two way street.
I'm sure you are doing what works for you and your clients, but I don't see it working for everyone.
Graham,
It's a good post also, I think you are pointing very interesting ideas and probably mixing the James post and yours could resume my feelings on convergence.
There is nothing that can last very long without passion and obviously not everybody can combine both numbers and passion.
I think it would be rather unproductive to just follow the fload (motion) if the person does not really feels it. But you know, I also met a lot of photographers, before all that video stuff, who where dead-alive and didn't show any more passion if they ever had some. They could make a living with it, staying where they were. In fact, I met more people like that than truly passionate ones.
The thing is for some, I include myself in that list, motion really brought another focus on creativity that they really feel but was hardly reachable because of costs (and not just demand-numbers reasons) . The wannabes will always flowrish in any genre, they were there way before video came.
But motion is a fully creative lenguage that will speak deaply to some and not so much to others.
Talking personaly, the tools we have now (convergence) are tools that I feel with more passion than stills alone. I enjoy like never, I deeply feel "at home" within the current panorama. Will I do well is another story. It could not or could and for the moment learning the lenguage but as you pointed, the most important is to be convinced in terms of lenguage that it fits with one self and not just in terms of wanting to follow the fload because the market says so. I think you hitted an important point too there.
As for marketing still or video, I think that the evolution goes towards the image maker. Those barriers will be less and less relevant. You will talk about this name or this group or this studio naturally expecting stills and motion portfolio. Actually, I'm using the future tense but it's already there.
I don't think those studios will do cine movies, they will do advertising campaigns and photographers will do very well once the learning and adaptation acheived because of their senses of esthetic and light. To me it's just an extention (that requires adaptation yes) of the talents some photographers already have.
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snip
I agree with you that the still photography market does not have the same growth potential that film does, but I don't necessarily agree that photographers should therefore start shooting video.
Video requires different abilities and a different way of thinking
snip
Then there are other issues. Do you market yourself as a stills or video producer? I would personally be turned off by a 'jack of all trades'. For the clients who don't mind, why would they come to the photographer and add video to the brief rather than asking the film production house to add stills? Convergence is a two way street.
snip
This is where we differ.
I thought you marketed yourself as a retoucher and a photographer. Is this a jack of all trades or an added skill? Is this a conflict of interest or opens you to a broader market?
Anyway . . .
I'm not looking for a boom industry, or a jack of all trades thought process.
I'm sure I'm like a lot of fortunate photographer's that have built a career, managed their resources and don't have to work as hard as I did when I started.
The thing is I love working hard with purpose, love the image making process and my only real fear was to get stuck doing the same thing day in and day out. I never wanted to be one of those rock guys that play the same song for three decades.
I gave going into motion imagery a lot of thought and like others, I first just fooled around with it as a secondary add on. Then it just hit me that I do like large production, I do not want to work for ever decreasing still numbers at double the output and I wanted to add to my life and keep pushing.
Also as my clients move forward that's the same direction I wanted to go.
Everybody talks about the 5d and in stills it really is a 5d world. That camera and others like it have changed how paying clients perceive the cost of still photography, even on high visibility brands, because everybody and their brother has a 5d and a copy of photoshop.
The professional buy in for motion is much higher, from shoot to post. I mean when was the last time you did a $164,000 still effect in post, though in the motion world that's the going price for an interesting post effect. I know I have one in process as I write this.
As a Creative Director showed me on his I-phone one day he gets 30 e-mails an hour from still photographers, so I assume that he assumes that he has a great deal of leverage.
That's just not where I wanted to be . . . at the commodity level.
I do market myself as someone that gets a desired result and just like stills there are some motion pieces we have shot and produced that I'm proud of and worked well for the client, though wouldn't move my career so they don't get featured on my public site and just like stills, we have motion pieces that have won awards and get nice acclaim but were not designed to be a profit making excersize.
Often that is the nature of commercial work for either stills or motion.
Marketing I won't get into because like most people I get a lot of calls, though getting the call and securing the project are two different processes. I have my way and there is not enough space or time to elaborate on what I do that works for me and I'm not comfortable explaining that in the public domain.
Personally I find the move into motion liberating and daunting. It's liberating because the work can be compared to a long form editorial where you don't tell the story in one frame. Daunting because you have to think ahead about how the session you shot today will fit into the cut you shoot in a week .
As the owner of the production company is exciting because our opinion has more value than still projects because now we work as a conceptual partner from the start to the final delivery.
We produce treatments, storyboards and in depth castings.
It also has required a steep learning curve on all fronts, from cameras, lighting, lenses and look - to the process of casting not just talent that can pose or look pretty, but can deliver a line and do it in a way that is interesting and surprising. .
It has required becoming a signatory to hire union talent and forming new relationships with crew that have different skill sets than stills. It's actually fun, but it's not for the weak of heart as it is a lot of work.
Right now we're into a 5 video multiple market project that we are shooting around the world. We just finished the first stage and it's exhausting like still work never is, but for me more rewarding because so much has to fall in place in a cohesive manner.
We have now moved more into dialog work and it's another evolutionary step that is difficult to explain, but when a take works it's just amazing how good it feels, when it doesn't it's heart breaking, but the one great upside to motion is you develop a rapport with the on camera talent that we rarely did with a model. You learn how they can stretch or what their limits are and usually I am surprised in a positive way, but like still photography you are there to serve the talent.
If you make the talent interesting you've done your job, though you have to be much more adaptable with motion, because you can't fix a line in post.
There is rarely a session where we don't have to deviate from script to make it work and if your the director you don't get a break, ever . . . though for me it's exhilarating. During production I wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning, to rethink the script, or direction or the setting, or how we're going yo manage the edit. I find that exciting beyond explanation.
But to try to keep this in context how the new wave of motion cameras relate to Hasselblad . . . well the RED is like a medium format camera. It's large, not as nimble, requires a lot of thought and when done right produces the cinematic look we all grew up with in movie theaters. The smaller cameras have enormous benefits in price and ease of use, though it takes a lot of post production to NOT make them look "video", so there are a lot of parallels.
We just added a Sony FS 100 which looks like a medium format camera in shape, (though has way too many buttons) but it can do some things I could never do with the RED ONE. Both have their place.
But this thread is about Hasselblad with a new owner and probably that means a new game plan. I would think Hasselblad, Leaf/Phase would have moved to motion cameras a lot faster than the Canon/Nikons of this world just because they were already serving the same high end professional market that RED and Arri will attract. I'm sure the technology is different, but maybe that's the issue, the technology of medium format cameras has moved slower than other less expensive brands.
Look at this link for RED and read the prices, the upgrades and I don't know about others, but to me it seems like the joke of it's deja-vu all over again, though it works because we'll probavly buy an epic very soon.
http://www.red.com/store/epic/product/epic-m
Just as most consumers won't see the difference between a well executed 5d image vs. a 60 mpx camera, maybe the same consumer won't see the difference between a 5k RED and a 2k Arri next to a Sony or a 5d, though I think we both know the goal of a professional is not to shoot to what is just acceptable to the client, but what is acceptable to us.
So my real response to anyone is do what you want with whatever equipment you want, but just make sure you have a passion for doing it.
IMO
BC
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BC,
I am following the whole video discussions with great interest for sometime now. It makes me wonder how large does your team needs to be? I for one have promises myself to never hire a single employee again in my lifetime but already find myself hiring more and more freelancers lately for all sorts of (merely) photography related work. I am wondering what are you realisticly talking about when it comes to motion teams?
It has my interest but sofar I have no need to step in and do motion too but I find the desire is growing upon me. I wonder how far away motion is for a photographer, how much you would do yourself or would you sit back more and hire people to do things to be able to keep the overview?
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BC,
I am following the whole video discussions with great interest for sometime now. It makes me wonder how large does your team needs to be? I for one have promises myself to never hire a single employee again in my lifetime but already find myself hiring more and more freelancers lately for all sorts of (merely) photography related work. I am wondering what are you realisticly talking about when it comes to motion teams?
It has my interest but sofar I have no need to step in and do motion too but I find the desire is growing upon me. I wonder how far away motion is for a photographer, how much you would do yourself or would you sit back more and hire people to do things to be able to keep the overview?
'm not BC of course,
But I think I can share a few things anyway.
My ex boss is a big name here and I've been living from inside the transition to motion
from an assistant point of view and then myself fully involved in the pp learning curve
and now starting the prod and filming itself with other people.
Without team, I don't see it! You would go crazy. How big? Before I'd say this:
Without stability, I don't see it either. I mean by stability not hiring from time to time this or
that person but hiring or building a stable team. I could not insist more on that point.
It would be too long and I'd have to enter in details I won't publicaly but think stable at any price.
(also not only in terms of team but also in terms of softwares-hardwares).
The answer of how big is relative but it is really key you can build a stable team even if very reduced.
The part you can reasonable do yourself is the editing, a basic or not basic grading but there will be a learning curve.
The less basic the tougher.
The key word is organisation, planification. You'll see it in the shooting and in the post-prod.
Litterally you could do almost everything if not all on your own. Realistically it will depend very much on
the kind of projects involved and very fast the team work araises by itself.
Once the basic learning curve is acheived, every step is very serious and PP pro dedicated softwares are
indeed another planet in complexity. It's like you had learned to fly on a Cessna and they put you on a Space Shuttle.
Something very similar.
On the other hand, it's very exciting and rewarding, the chalenges are worth and if you feel passion about it,
you will overcome all the obstacles or difficulties.
But be aware that it will pump you a lot of time and energy. BC is obviously a beast of work (don't know if that term works in english, I mean
a person who has a working potential higher than normal) and also I think as he expressed in this forum, that his
private life is linked to the profession wich is very important and shouldn't be ignored. Because when one starts to wake up at 3 or 4,
or spend the week-ends in the learning etc...you know where those things can lead in terms of private life if they last for too long.
(unless the checks are suddenly raining upon your head)
So if you are married or similar I would honestly talk to the person and explain clearly your goal and the consequences during a period you will
be much less available. I'm not kiding on that point.
Because you'll have to dedicate a lot (a lot really) of time, specialy if you mostly like to work on very reduced team.
Then obviously telling the story wich is generally the weak point.
How far is motion to photography? Very close and very far IMO. In fact I'm convinced that it is an extention of qualities
that are already requiered in photography for the most part, but it is also an extention in terms of budget, power needed, complexity,
etc...
So I think that what you need to know are
1- make sure you really really want it
2- make sure you are ready for sacrifices
3- make sure you are clear and organised and bet on a stable team
4- make sure your goal is clear (even if you don't know right now the how)
5- avoid the learning by yourself, take clases with pros. Here the TV gives clases for ex.
Delegate.
IMHO.
Fred.
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Fred,
Thanks for filling in some of my blanks! Very much appreciated. Fortunately I already almost always use the same team for stills (some of these already are involved in motion, eg. sound). I totally agree on stability in the team, I am already upset when I need another MUA instead of the one I know and trust.
For as my wife :) She already handles all commercial affairs and traffic, she is great at that part and I totally rely on her to do this. From your comments I think her task would become even harder. Good point!
Thanks again.
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Yes, I'm completly in favor of stability in team now. It's an adventure, and if your wife is fully part of it, well it couldn't be better.
I think you have all the cards in your favor. I would go for it!
Best luck in that process.
Cheers.
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Fred,
Thanks for filling in some of my blanks! Very much appreciated. Fortunately I already almost always use the same team for stills (some of these already are involved in motion, eg. sound). I totally agree on stability in the team, I am already upset when I need another MUA instead of the one I know and trust.
For as my wife :) She already handles all commercial affairs and traffic, she is great at that part and I totally rely on her to do this. From your comments I think her task would become even harder. Good point!
Thanks again.
Ray
I too have been following this thread with interest. I spend most of my working year with my wife making TV programmes in the UK, working with production companies, camera and sound crews and so on. It seems to me that there is likely to be another form of "convergence" here. The TV crews are already using 5D's extensively and several camera men I know also make advertising films using their normal HD Canon and Sony kit but also now with 5D's. They have bigger budgets and come with lots of experience and, in the case of facilities and production companies, businesses and balance sheets to protect.
You could argue that a photographer moving into high quality video is expanding his (or her) market but they will be stepping on the toes of existing freelance camera men many of whom will have craft skills in terms of handling and use of the equipment way beyond that which can be quickly learned by a stills photographer (but not necessarily a good "eye"). One of my best friends is a professional camera man and a keen semi-professional stills photographer. He does a lot of work with advertising agencies and companies making TV adverts which have been conceived from a video rather than still perspective.
i guess the key question is - who is commissioning the work? If the commissioner has a TV or film background he will lean to conventional camera crews with a director and so on. If he has a graphics or picture editing (stills) background for example he may well think of a stills photographer with a video capability first.
In any case almost no-one in the TV production industry owns their own equipment - it is all hired. They cannot afford the depreciation or the risk that something will break down with no backup. If we are on location and a lens or camera fail the facilities company will send someone right away with a replacement.
More to think about perhaps?
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Definitely something to think about. Not so much about stepping on anyones toes, I couldn't care less. I do think about the significant raise in costs & budgets. This is a risk on one side on the other it is a threshold for everyone so not just me. This is also one of the reasons we are doing well with stills, it is a hard time for everyone so you have to really push to get ahead. This can be a good thing and for us it is. another threshold in the form of a high investment barrier isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
I hate renting things, I rather buy outright. You have to create enough work to be able to do so. So yes another thing to think over.
Maybe, I will get a 5D first to toy with...
You mentioned the cameramen with a lot more experience which is one thing I do realize. When I would go the route of hiring these people myself because of that I am getting more into the role of producing or being just the 'eye', not sure if this is where I want to go. I think I might but this is getting very close to something I have left over 10 years ago though maybe a bit more on the creative side.
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I think that if buying Red is probably the way to go and rent in the case of Arri.
Hey, don't forget the Pana GH2. I know it looks like a toy but really isn't at all and in video more advanced than the 5D2. The Red One guys in Paris are crazy about it.
You can litterally mount anything on it, even PL lenses and it's almost free of moire.
This guy is a Red guru, very respected: http://vimeo.com/16819513
(like the Stevie Ray Vaughan red air japanese in the end)
This little camera is amazing. Since I have it the 5D is getting spider webs.
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snip
I hate renting things, I rather buy outright. You have to create enough work to be able to do so. So yes another thing to think over.
Maybe, I will get a 5D first to toy with...
snip
Cameras are cameras so I wouldn't worry too much.
It all depends on your wallet and your goal.
Personally, If I was starting I'd buy the Sony fs100 over a 5d if motion footage was the goal.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/related-most_popular/video-prenab2011_nxcam_nexfs100u_training/
It will autofocus with it's one kit zoom lens (which is great for tracking) has the shape of a traditional square box camera like a old hasselblad with a grip but it takes any lens, from Sony Zeiss A mount, (which are 2.8's), PL movie lenses, Nikons, Canons, Leica.
Sony also has new Emount autofocus lenses coming soon.
They're are two xlr inputs for sound (full size) an HDMI out for tethered viewing.
It does have a lot of buttons but they are fairly easy to learn in about a day and a lot of customized look settings, where you can shoot flat, somewhat like the technicolor 5d setting to anything in between.
I think there are 5 presets for color and tone and you can shoot to cards or a small dedicated disk that will give 10 hours of recording.
It goes to high gain well with little noise and the sensor is almost twice the size of the 4x3 cameras once the file is cropped to 16x0.
The camera is around 5 grand, the lenses as much or as little as you want to spend but it is a motion camera designed completely for motion work.
The workflow is about the same as stills. The sony shoots a avchd wrapper though the codec is h264 4:2:2. There are cheap softwares that wrap it into a .mov file and then you can batch upload through easy free software to make a workable apple prorezz 422.
You will have to color grade it for look if you don't do it in camera though color grading comes after the edit and cs4/5 does a very good job and fairly fast in a software your familiar with.
So with camera, lenses a wireless lav and a small friction head for about 10 grand you can shoot a quality beyond anything that cost $50,000 just a few years ago without a steep learning curve.
IMO
BC
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Cameras are cameras so I wouldn't worry too much.
It all depends on your wallet and your goal.
Personally, If I was starting I'd buy the Sony fs100 over a 5d if motion footage was the goal.
So with camera, lenses a wireless lav and a small friction head for about 10 grand you can shoot a quality beyond anything that cost $50,000 just a few years ago without a steep learning curve.
IMO
BC
It would be interesting to know how the low-budget music video people do their job.
Edmund