Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: torger on June 09, 2011, 10:58:09 am
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Ok, so I'm a pixel peeping landscape photographer. Therefore I don't like camera vibrations. With 5-6 um pixel sizes and sharp lenses this is a very real problem, even when lenses are not particularly long. I use a DSLR so of course the mirror is up and I use a remote trigger. Using 10x zoom in live view I can watch and wait for vibrations to subside before taking the shot. However, with a bit heavier lenses and in windy conditions the vibrations may never subside, and I am a bit worried that shutter slap may still cause vibrations. Long exposures rarely get maximum sharpness in any condition. I need some firmer stuff.
Today I use a simple aluminium tripod from Manfrotto quite lightweight, but of decent quality. Now I'm looking for something new, and it may be expensive as long as it is motivated. I'm not fond of the idea of spending thousands of dollars on lenses just to mess up image quality due to a poor tripod.
I'm thinking of Gitzo carbon tripods, but I wonder if it is ok to have say 8 kg max load if the equipment weights 5 kgs, or if one should go overkill, say 20 kg max load? Just to make it really stable, or is it totally unnecessary? Since I will be carrying around the tripod I want as much rigidity as necessary, but no more if it weighs more. If for example long exposures would require really heavy tripod I could think of having a special heavy one for that and a portable for less demanding situations. The problem is that I don't really have the experience to know what I need.
Anyone that has experience and recommendations?
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In my opinion, the maximum load ratings on most tripods & heads are a bit of a joke. They may be applicable if you have a bowling ball on your tripod, but if you have something that's not exactly centered (say, a camera & lens!), that's a different matter. My heaviest camera/lens combo is just a little over 4 pounds (including ballhead). The tripod I use for hiking is rated at 22 pounds, and I consider it marginal - adequate considering it must be backpacked, but would certainly use something heavier if that wasn't an issue.
As for shutter slap, live view is your friend (at least it is for Canon shooters, not sure about others). See this: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=35473092
Hope this helps.
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Hope this helps.
Thanks, it sure did... I was suspecting that, go for the heaviest tripod I can carry :-). Any opinion on carbon vs aluminium? I've heard things like carbon is better at handling windy conditions, but I guess it is better to have a aluminium tripod rated for 25 kg than carbon rated 15 kg (with the obvious drawback that the alu tripod is heavier to carry)?
I am a canon shooter and thus use the electronic shutter, but I never really figured out what the "soft click" at the start from exposure comes from if it's not from the mechanical shutter. If there is sound there is something moving and then there is vibration (and you indeed can feel it in your hand). However I guess this soft click vibration is managable, perhaps comparable to view camera copal shutters (which are said to cause less vibration than focal plane shutters).
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Thanks, it sure did... I was suspecting that, go for the heaviest tripod I can carry :-). Any opinion on carbon vs aluminium? I've heard things like carbon is better at handling windy conditions, but I guess it is better to have a aluminium tripod rated for 25 kg than carbon rated 15 kg (with the obvious drawback that the alu tripod is heavier to carry)?
I am a canon shooter and thus use the electronic shutter, but I never really figured out what the "soft click" at the start from exposure comes from if it's not from the mechanical shutter. If there is sound there is something moving and then there is vibration (and you indeed can feel it in your hand). However I guess this soft click vibration is managable, perhaps comparable to view camera copal shutters (which are said to cause less vibration than focal plane shutters).
The click you hear is the diaphragm setting the aperture (stays wide open during focusing, only stops down to the selected setting just before exposure. It does cause a little vibration, but less than the mechanical shutter. You can observe this by comparing it to a normal shutter trip with mirror lock-up.
As for material, carbon is the obvious choice if weight matters at all. But all carbon pods are not equal. I currently have a Feisol 3441 for hiking use, and it's okay, but it's less rigid than the smaller & lighter Gitzo "0" series tripod I used to own (the Gitzo was just too short). If you haven't already seen it, the standard advice on tripods is here: http://www.bythom.com/support.htm .
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The click you hear is the diaphragm setting the aperture
Arrghh... of course it is... I'm rather technical kind of photographer so I should have figured that out :-). I tested to press and hold the dof preview button to see if one could tape that in to get rid of also that noise, but it seems to do some stuff with the aperture anyway before taking the shot because the sound is the same so I guess one have to live with that. I shall look at the guide, thanks for the link.
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I owned a Manfrotto CF tripod back around 2004. I sold it because I thought the leg joints were wobbly. I'm now on my second and third Gitzo CF tripods. Stability is subjective, of course, but I've been real happy with their rigidity. Most of the time, I use a GT2521 with a Markins Q10. It is a good balance of rigid and portable. For my gimbal head, I use a GT3541XLS which is solid as a rock and yet amazingly light and portable. Many folks say to ditch the center column for maximum rigidity. The GT2521 can be used without the center column, but I found it about 4 inches too short. Hence the GT3541XLS monster that can go to 6.6 feet.
What CF has over aluminum is less weight, less flex, better temperature control and, IMHO, a better "feel". What I'm not overly fond of is the rotating ring style leg locks. I also use a Manfrotto aluminum monopod and I prefer the old school flip levers. Also, I'm not happy with the Gitzos in water. The legs fill with water and they are hard to dry out. I don't have the nerve to drill a drain hole in the bottom of each leg. If I spent more time in the water, I would buy a big heavy aluminum tripod and drill some drain holes.
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Ok, so I'm a pixel peeping landscape photographer. Therefore I don't like camera vibrations. With 5-6 um pixel sizes and sharp lenses this is a very real problem, even when lenses are not particularly long. I use a DSLR so of course the mirror is up and I use a remote trigger. Using 10x zoom in live view I can watch and wait for vibrations to subside before taking the shot. However, with a bit heavier lenses and in windy conditions the vibrations may never subside, and I am a bit worried that shutter slap may still cause vibrations. Long exposures rarely get maximum sharpness in any condition. I need some firmer stuff.
Today I use a simple aluminium tripod from Manfrotto quite lightweight, but of decent quality. Now I'm looking for something new, and it may be expensive as long as it is motivated. I'm not fond of the idea of spending thousands of dollars on lenses just to mess up image quality due to a poor tripod.
I'm thinking of Gitzo carbon tripods, but I wonder if it is ok to have say 8 kg max load if the equipment weights 5 kgs, or if one should go overkill, say 20 kg max load? Just to make it really stable, or is it totally unnecessary? Since I will be carrying around the tripod I want as much rigidity as necessary, but no more if it weighs more. If for example long exposures would require really heavy tripod I could think of having a special heavy one for that and a portable for less demanding situations. The problem is that I don't really have the experience to know what I need.
Anyone that has experience and recommendations?
One cannot argue with the quality of the Gitzo CF tripod lineup. If price is no consideration one can stop right there; chose the one(s) that best meets your needs. You have already received the link to the famous article bythom on buying a tripod. Written quite a few years ago, Thom makes several points about the relation of quality, function and weight, saying you need to pay a lot to get all three. In recent years a number of companies from Asia have introduced lower cost tripods that take their specs from Gitzo. Many experienced comments say caveat emptor. But there is at least one Asian company that has achieved a good reputation and about 50% lower pricing -- Feisol. At this point, there are usually several posts that warn that this cannot be true. Really? Feisol has developed a full line of tripod legs that provide ~90% of the Gitzo quality and in some cases additional features not found on the corresponding Gitzo. If you are hiking and traveling with a DSLR, you can consider the 3442 which weighs 2.1 lb, yet is quite stable and closes to ~ 19 in. You will also need to consider a ball head and mounting plate for your camera. That is a different conversation but I will note that each of the components has to work together to achieve a solid, stable platform, or you are wasting your money.
Does any of this get your attention?
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Having gone through seemingly endless varieties of tripods - some heavy, some light, with and without columns and/or spreaders IMO you cannot beat the Gitzo CF lineup for your purpose. My current setup is a Gitzo 3530S with an Arca Swiss Cube. As I use Really Right Stuff and Kirk L plates I changed the clamp on the head to an RRS type. To cure vibration in longer lenses I bought the RRS long lens support kit which I wholeheartedly recommend.
On windy days the addition of a weighted bag and a velcro strap round the lens to hold it tight goes just about as far as it is possible to go again IMO.
This setup has been on many difficult and sometimes remote locations and has never let me down. It is not an inexpensive solution but I do not plan on changing it (unlike my cameras) any time soon. I have used it with both high end 35mm (D3X) and MFD (H4D-50) with long lenses with no problem. Whatever you choose to buy I suggest that you go for a plate and clamp solution from Kirk or RRS and definitely get the long lens support kit.
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Thanks for all the tips... I'm looking at Gitzo 3531 or some similar model. I'd go for three sections but if 4 is ok, I could use a higher tripod for less critical over-head shots. For landscape work I prefer geared heads (just wonderful to work with when doing precise framing) and surely would like the Arca Swiss Cube, but I think it is too expensive at least for now.
I have a Manfrotto 410 geared head now, which is quite nice, light (not as light as the cube though) and low cost with good controls. I'm not 100% satisfied with the rigidity of it though, if I put some twisting force on it with my hands I can feel some play. Not sure it matters in terms of image quality, I don't think so. It seems to rest in position quite well.
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I am a canon shooter and thus use the electronic shutter, but I never really figured out what the "soft click" at the start from exposure comes from if it's not from the mechanical shutter.
Only the first curtain is electronic, not the entire shutter. The second curtain is mechanical. But you are right ... if using live-view it certainly is the most vibration free way to use the camera ... actually better than mirror-up, since there is no shutter movement at all until the exposure is almost over.
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I have tried meny different tripods to awoid vibrations with long lenses.
The best is the Sachtler tripods with a fluid. Expensive, but worth every cent.
Henrik
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Also, I'm not happy with the Gitzos in water.
Umm... that's not good, I use my tripod in the water quite often.
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I have tried meny different tripods to awoid vibrations with long lenses.
The best is the Sachtler tripods with a fluid. Expensive, but worth every cent.
Henrik
+1
I use a Gitzo 3531S Carbon with a fantastic Burzynski head. All really nice stuff. But if I do not use mirror lock up on an EOS 5D Mk2 with medium tele you will be shocked by the visible vibration. When it comes to vibration damping check the big Sachtlers and fluid heads.
Herb
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Arrghh... of course it is... I'm rather technical kind of photographer so I should have figured that out :-). I tested to press and hold the dof preview button to see if one could tape that in to get rid of also that noise, but it seems to do some stuff with the aperture anyway before taking the shot because the sound is the same so I guess one have to live with that. I shall look at the guide, thanks for the link.
Or, invest in some manual-aperture lenses?
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Get a steel tripod! http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Majestic&N=0&InitialSearch=yes Very heavy but solid as a rock.
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I use Gitzo 3530 with Center column (though I raise it max couple of inches. And I use RRS ballhead BH55. While I also have 25+yrs old Bogen 3050, a much heavier tripod but if U want a quick setting and absolutely still photos than Bogen is by far excels any tripods with it's instant lever release. If U don't mind extra weight then Bogen wins. IMHO
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Carbon fiber absorbs vibration better than alum. or steel...so for me that would always be a given for the legs material. I happen to use all Manfrotto now...had for a while...works perfectly...don't see need to pay for "upgrade". I happen to like how leg clamps "work" on Manfrotto legs...that's a personal thing though. If I was upgrading heads...next round I would get a Novoflex CB3...I like the fact that it has three 90 degree "slots" - which are usefull for me...again perhaps a personal thing.
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I have tried meny different tripods to awoid vibrations with long lenses.
The best is the Sachtler tripods with a fluid. Expensive, but worth every cent.
Henrik
I don't really understand the Sachtler products, it seems to be for video only, and fluid is in the video heads not the tripods?
I am a bit worried about induced vibration from wind etc for long exposures, but I don't have the experience to know if say a top end carbon Gitzo tripod with a quality head is good enough to get sharp long exposures with some wind or water flow around the legs, or if you would need some extra feature such as fluid heads or what it is Sachtler has.
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One cannot argue with the quality of the Gitzo CF tripod lineup. If price is no consideration one can stop right there
I prefer Really Right Stuff with a RH-55 ball head over Gitzo, but just my opinion as both are excellent. IN GENERAL, 3 section tripods are sturdier than 4. Tripods without or with slightly raised columns are studier than tripods where the center column is used. Whatever you choose, be sure to use mirror lock-up and a cable release. And by the way, for the big RRS tripod and the BH-55 head, have around $1,500 handy...
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On a budget: http://cgi.ebay.com/Billingham-Reporter-371-70-Ash-Wooden-Tripod-Head-/300563844745?pt=UK_Tripods_Monopods&hash=item45fb004e89
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One cannot argue with the quality of the Gitzo CF tripod lineup. If price is no consideration one can stop right there; chose the one(s) that best meets your needs. You have already received the link to the famous article bythom on buying a tripod. Written quite a few years ago, Thom makes several points about the relation of quality, function and weight, saying you need to pay a lot to get all three. In recent years a number of companies from Asia have introduced lower cost tripods that take their specs from Gitzo. Many experienced comments say caveat emptor. But there is at least one Asian company that has achieved a good reputation and about 50% lower pricing -- Feisol. At this point, there are usually several posts that warn that this cannot be true. Really? Feisol has developed a full line of tripod legs that provide ~90% of the Gitzo quality and in some cases additional features not found on the corresponding Gitzo. If you are hiking and traveling with a DSLR, you can consider the 3442 which weighs 2.1 lb, yet is quite stable and closes to ~ 19 in. You will also need to consider a ball head and mounting plate for your camera. That is a different conversation but I will note that each of the components has to work together to achieve a solid, stable platform, or you are wasting your money.
Does any of this get your attention?
Feisol's price about 20% less than Gitzo recently.
It's quality is not up to standard of Gitzo, though there are numerous reports of Gitzo tripod failure recently.
I can see vibration when using 3442 tripod with Canon 100-400.
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If stability really is the issue then a wote for wood tripods. Low-tech with focus on the main issue; to keep the camera stable. Still the best? Check out Berlebach.
Edit: Here is a test including the ablity to cope with vibrations:
http://www.optiline.no/berlebach/images/stativtest_lfi1_2006.PDF (http://www.optiline.no/berlebach/images/stativtest_lfi1_2006.PDF)
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Sachtler tripods have no fluid inside. Their heads do incorporate fluid damping and they are among the best fluid heads in the business. They are standard tools on movie sets world-wide.