Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Other Raw Converters => Topic started by: FranciscoDisilvestro on May 17, 2011, 01:29:17 am

Title: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on May 17, 2011, 01:29:17 am
I would like to share some findings using DxO Optics Pro (DOP) with dng output. This would be useful if you like DOP optical corrections (distortion, lens softness, etc.) and prefer LR/ACR edits, especially for color (or you don´t have the new version of LR/ACR with optical corrections).

This is not intended to compare optical corrections between DOP and LR/ACR

 I have seen a few comments here and in other on-line forums about color issues with DOP, which could be summarized as:

- Output Tiff or Jpeg: Color spaces can be either sRGB or AdobeRGB1998. Even if you manually select another (like ProPhoto RGB) it will actually convert Adobe RGB to ProPhoto at the end, so you don´t gain anything. It is like opening the file in PS with AdobeRGB and converting to ProPhoto. This can be shown using gamut plots, but it is not the purpose of this post.

- Input other than Raw: If your input file is jpeg or tiff, DOP works only with sRGB. If you open a file in AdobeRGB it will "assign" (not "convert to") sRGB. This I consider as a big issue, especially if you planned of using DOP as an external editor to LR. Don´t use it that way.

The case with DNG output:

Are there advantages of using DNG output? for some time it has been argued the utility of such output over tiff, that it is not a raw file, etc.

After several test, I would say they are worthed if you plan to continue your processing in LR/ACR.

- Yes, they are not Raw, but demosaiced and interpolated files (linear dng)

- However, those files have not been color space encoded. When you open them in LR/ACR, you could still select a camera profile and white balance as in a Raw file

- A nice finding: The ColorChecker Passport software will accept a DOP dng, so you could generate a dng profile from it

- Since it has not been color space encoded, you could use the ProPhotoRGB space from LR/ACR

It is important to note that if you perform exposure adjustment or white balance correction in DOP, it will affect the dng file. This really matters if your raw file has any blown out area and plan to use recovery in LR/ACR. I´ll expand more about this later

Here are examples of the test:

The first image is a raw file (.NEF) processed in LR 2 with a dng profile created from the same image.

The second image is a raw file (.NEF) processed in DOP 6.5 only for optical corrections, output as dng. This dng has been used to create a dng profile with the X-Rite application and then the dng was processed in LR 2 using the dng profile previously generated.

Note: these first two images have been converted to sRGB for web viewing

The third image shows the areas that are outside AdobeRGB1998 (LR -> Tiff in ProphotoRGB -> PS gamut warning)

The fourth image shows the gamut plots. The one on the right side is the file that went through DXO. Both are compared to the AdobeRGB1998 colorspace (wire frame) to show an area outside of it in the yellow region. (These gamut plots have been generated with the tools in Argyll CMS and the Cortona 3D viewer)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on May 17, 2011, 01:33:08 am
DOP dng and blown out highlights, an unexpected finding:

I was trying to analyze how the dng output worked in terms of data modification. Using IRIS I found:

- Data is basically 15 bit
- Something curious happens with the blown out areas of the raw file: It uses the 16th bit, so some applications see this as a negative value (as IRIS)

To my surprise, LR/ACR have no problem with these 16 bits values, except there is a small caveat when using recovery: Adjusting white balance in LR/ACR will affect the tone of these blown out areas (they will not be neutral)

If you want the blown out areas to be neutral when applying recovery in LR/ACR, white balance has to be performed in DOP before the generation of the dng

Here are some images to illustrate this issue

The first image is the original Raw file (.NEF) in Rawnalize, showing the raw clipped areas

The second image is the DOP generated dng file in IRIS, showing the blown out areas black, since IRIS interprets this as negative values (the red dot indicates the measure from the blown out area as -23771, the yellow dot indicates a measure from a highlight (not blown out) of 28576) These values are an indication of the 15/16 bit values

The third image shows the case when white balance is corrected in LR/ACR and then recovery is applied for the blown out areas (the image has been darkened to emphasize the color cast)

The fourth image shows the case when white balance was performed in DOP and recovery is applied in LR/ACR. There is no detail, as expected, but the tone is neutral.

Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: MalcolmL on June 08, 2011, 04:27:03 pm
"Output Tiff or Jpeg: Color spaces can be either sRGB or AdobeRGB1998. Even if you manually select another (like ProPhoto RGB) it will actually convert Adobe RGB to ProPhoto at the end, so you don´t gain anything"
Please clarify - did you really mean::

it will actually convert ProPhoto to  Adobe RGB at the end

Thanks
MalcolmL
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on June 10, 2011, 06:56:36 pm
To clarify:

If you select ProphotoRGB as the output space, the image will be encoded correctly in the ProphotoRGB space but it will not use the additional color space available in ProphotoRGB.

It is basically an AdobeRGB image converted to ProphotoRGB. Any color outside AdobeRGB will be lost.

It is the same as if you open an AdobeRGB image in Photoshop and then select Edit-> Convert to profile - > ProphotoRGB
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on October 22, 2012, 01:05:01 am
Is this still the case for DxO Optics Pro 7, that it will not output to true ProPhoto?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on October 31, 2012, 02:06:47 pm
Is this still the case for DxO Optics Pro 8, that it will not output to true ProPhoto?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2012, 04:41:47 pm
It is basically an AdobeRGB image converted to ProphotoRGB. Any color outside AdobeRGB will be lost.

Makes me suspect all their processing is using Adobe RGB (1998) or some linear variant instead of ProPhoto (something Mr. Knoll thought about early on for ACR). I suppose re-enginnering this might be a lot of work.

If that's the case, why use ProPhoto as an option?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 31, 2012, 06:47:48 pm
Makes me suspect all their processing is using Adobe RGB (1998) or some linear variant instead of ProPhoto (something Mr. Knoll thought about early on for ACR). I suppose re-enginnering this might be a lot of work.
or may be they just do not see a need in a wasteful space like ProPhoto.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2012, 06:59:41 pm
or may be they just do not see a need in a wasteful space like ProPhoto.

So that explains the option to use ProPhoto how?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on October 31, 2012, 07:09:58 pm
I asked this question directly to DXO themselves, and here is the answer:

Does DXO Optics Pro Elite output files in true Prophoto color space?

I have read on various forums that DXO Optic Pro will only output files in the sRGB or Adobe RGB color spaces, even if ProPhoto color space is selected in as the ICC profile. Is this the case? If yes, when will you offer true ProPhoto output?
Thank you, Jason
 

Bonjour Ligament,

What you have read on the various forums is incorrect. DxO will give you output files converted to ProPhoto color space if you wish it. However, you need to do a little more reading because a 16-bit TIFF file is not enough to hold all this information, much of it cannot be displayed on anything because it exceeds the capabity of human vision, and requires a 32-bit TIFF to hold it all.

We do not have 32-bit TIFF files yet, the best most expensive monitors cannot yet display the full Adobe RGB gamut, and some of the "colors" in the full Adobe RGB gamut are invisible to humans.

You can do this, but you will lose information rather than have something more accurate. See the attached.

Best Regards,

Andrew F.
Support & Assistance
 
Petr Vodnak Photography - Color Space.pdf
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on October 31, 2012, 08:43:41 pm
Hi,
I have not done the test with version 7. However, to clarify

Quote
What you have read on the various forums is incorrect. DxO will give you output files converted to ProPhoto color space if you wish it

Of course the files will be converted to ProPhoto, but it would be converting a file from AdobeRGB to Prophoto, so the encoding will be correct for Prophoto, but there would not be colors outside of the AdobeRGB space

Quote
a 16-bit TIFF file is not enough to hold all this information

This is the first time I have seen this claim, that 16 bits is not enough for ProPhoto RGB

Quote
some of the "colors" in the full Adobe RGB gamut are invisible to humans

Really? The primaries are visible to human, I can't see where are the invisible AdobeRGB colors

Finally, I would not recomment the article referred at the end of the messge.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 01, 2012, 12:23:46 pm
Raw files with a gamut potential to be rendered and encoded outside Adobe RGB (1998) are easy to find. If this product, when instructed to produce ProPhoto RGB clips everything within Adobe RGB (1998), we'll know a lot more about what is happening behind the scenes. Anyone with this software, ColorThink and some raw's that at least in ACR/LR show gamut outside Adobe RGB should be able to test this.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on November 02, 2012, 12:32:21 am
Raw files with a gamut potential to be rendered and encoded outside Adobe RGB (1998) are easy to find. If this product, when instructed to produce ProPhoto RGB clips everything within Adobe RGB (1998), we'll know a lot more about what is happening behind the scenes. Anyone with this software, ColorThink and some raw's that at least in ACR/LR show gamut outside Adobe RGB should be able to test this.

From DXO tech support:

"Bonjour Ligament.

DxO Optics Pro uses Adobe RGB as its internal working color space.

As I pointed out in my previous email, you need 32-bit TIFFs for Prophoto color space. Adobe RGB is about right for 16-bit TIFFs and 16-bit TIFFs are far too small for Prophoto RGB. 32-bit TIFFs do not exist yet.

A Nikon D800E is about high resolution not about capturing huge color spaces.

Did you read and understand the article that I sent you?

Best Regards,

Andy"
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 02, 2012, 10:06:10 am
From DXO tech support:
As I pointed out in my previous email, you need 32-bit TIFFs for Prophoto color space. Adobe RGB is about right for 16-bit TIFFs and 16-bit TIFFs are far too small for Prophoto RGB. 32-bit TIFFs do not exist yet.

That's either a tech support person who's confused or is lying. It's a big pile of dog poop!

First, ProPhoto has been designed to work fine with 16-bit files, 32 bit is not required. In fact, since 1998, Photoshop users (and later, ACR and LR users) have processed using Prophoto RGB 16-bit data on what has to be tens of thousands if not millions of images (think about all the raw data passed through just those two Adobe products).

In one of, if not the original article on ROMM by Kodak, the white paper states:

Quote
The color space is also appropriate for archiving and/or interchanging rendered images. Both an 8-bit version, as well as a 12-bit version of this color space are defined.

and:

Quote
V. Conclusions
A new color space known as Reference Output Medium Metric RGB (ROMM RGB) has been defined. This color space is intended to be used for manipulation and/or interchange of images that exist in a rendered image state. Examples of manipulations that might be applied in this color space include manual color/density/contrast/tone scale adjustments, scene balance algorithms, red-eye correction, and dust/scratch removal. Both an 8-bit version as well as a 12-bit version of this color space are defined.

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/professional/products/software/colorFlow/romm_rgb.pdf
Notice the date (1999)!

Further, the late Bruce Fraser did significant testing on ProPhoto RGB FOR Kodak and concluded that it was fine for use with 8-bit per color images but recommended high bit use. I'll see if I can dig up any emails from Bruce about this**.

The idea that one must use 32 bit files for ProPhoto is nonsense and further, IF what DXO says is true (it isn't), how on earth can they allow their users to convert into ProPhoto and worse, when the data is a smaller gamut, Adobe RGB (1998)?

DxO as a company needs to address this silliness from their tech support staff. We can't even now take his word that the processing space is Adobe RGB (1998) but I have suspected it was. So why allow a user to encode from that into ProPhoto? Why make up nonsense about ProPhoto having to be 32 bit yet let the products user do this FROM Adobe RGB? Maybe to make those who want a wider gamut raw processing space feel better.

Where might we find DxO's white paper about ProPhoto RGB having to be used with 32 bit data?

**Also from the Kodak white paper:

Quote
Bit Depth for ROMM RGB Working Space
An important consideration relative to the “editability” of an image in the ROMM RGB Working Space is the bit depth. RGB Working Spaces in the Photoshop software offer both 8-bit and 16-bit modes. (As discussed above, it is generally recommended that ROMM12 RGB images be converted to a 16-bit encoding when stored in a file that is to be read into Adobe Photoshop software.) Where possible, the 16-bit Working Space should be maintained in the Photoshop software for the manipulation of ROMM16 RGB images. In some cases it will be desirable to use the 16-bit Working Space option even for the manipulation of ROMM8 RGB images. This makes it possible to apply more aggressive image adjustments to an image with the minimal introduction of artifacts. The recommended approach for the most discerning color imaging professional is to make all major color appearance adjustments while in 16-bit ROMM RGB Working Space, then only drop back to 8-bit for any final fine tuning and specific “output preparation” adjustments.
Kodak, ColorFlow, PHOTO CD and PhotoYCC are trademarks of Eastman Kodak Company
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on November 02, 2012, 10:06:38 am
So that explains the option to use ProPhoto how?
it is just an output "container" for narrower data by popular demand from people who do not know about tighter spaces... in any case DxO caters to its audience which apparently does not include people who are missing colors outside of AdobeRGB in their final result (print or display)... the same is for SilkyPix (output wise at least) - only AdobeRGB and sRGB are offered
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on November 02, 2012, 10:14:05 am
DxO as a company needs to address this silliness from their tech support staff.
it is not going to happen... the only way not to have "silliness" is to have actual developers (and not tier 1 support) answering (like for example Eric Chan does), otherwise you can always get incorrect information about how things implemented...
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 02, 2012, 10:26:45 am
it is not going to happen... the only way not to have "silliness" is to have actual developers (and not tier 1 support) answering (like for example Eric Chan does), otherwise you can always get incorrect information about how things implemented...

And/or have customers bitch like hell when they hear this stuff. Keep in mind, LuLa gets something like 1 million unique hits a month. This is the place to air out that smelly vendor laundry.

If they want to say "look, we use Adobe RGB (1998) for processing and that's the gamut limit" fine. Just don't lie and post a lot of dog poop about a working space that is been used for 13+ years.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: RFPhotography on November 02, 2012, 12:39:14 pm
it is just an output "container" for narrower data by popular demand from people who do not know about tighter spaces... in any case DxO caters to its audience which apparently does not include people who are missing colors outside of AdobeRGB in their final result (print or display)... the same is for SilkyPix (output wise at least) - only AdobeRGB and sRGB are offered

Or who don't know they're missing those colours.  I suspect not all DxO users fit into either category though.  As Andrew said digital raw files can capture more than the ProPhoto space.  There are printers that can render more than AdobeRGB in some colours.  DxO's advice is wrong and their clipping of colours even when optionally trying to output a file tagged with ProPhoto is bad programming.

Further, their comment that nothing more than AdobeRGB is needed because monitors can't reproduce it is ridiculous.  Monitors today may not be able to reproduce more than, or even as much as, AdobeRGB but who knows what the future will bring.  A few years ago we had to be satisfied with monitors that could only reproduce sRGB.  Same with printers and papers.  If nothing else, using ProPhoto is future-proofing.  Why go back and have to reprocess hundreds, thousands or 10s of thousands of RAW files to take advantage of display/printing advancements in the future?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on November 02, 2012, 02:29:35 pm
I would encourage you all to email DXO labs and make your complaints and arguments against using adobe RGB as the internal working color space.

It is a great software otherwise; to limit the color range on purpose is self defeating.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 02, 2012, 03:36:30 pm
in any case DxO caters to its audience apparently does not include people who are missing colors outside of AdobeRGB in their final result (print or display)... the same is for SilkyPix (output wise at least) - only AdobeRGB and sRGB are offered

How would they know otherwise?

How do you know about the market or the aim of which DxO caters?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on November 02, 2012, 03:37:22 pm
And/or have customers bitch like hell when they hear this stuff.

I do not recall any bitching and I was reading DxO forums (not recently though)...


Keep in mind, LuLa gets something like 1 million unique hits a month. This is the place to air out that smelly vendor laundry.

I 'd assume that is 999999 hits from LR users  ;D ... people use DxO for certain niche (less niche nowadays) features... consider in Camera DNG and manufacturers not giving a damn about what was/is written here...

If they want to say "look, we use Adobe RGB (1998) for processing and that's the gamut limit" fine. Just don't lie and post a lot of dog poop about a working space that is been used for 13+ years.

16bit raw from MFDB anybody ?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on November 02, 2012, 03:47:05 pm
Or who don't know they're missing those colours.

Bob...even Schewe is sometimes not aware how ACR/LR works inside and he writes books about that... colors... for as long as the users and their customers are happy with whatever colors DxO delivers.


I suspect not all DxO users fit into either category though.  

true, we find one person and he is welcome to illustrate his issue w/ a raw file to show the critically important missing colors

As Andrew said digital raw files can capture more than the ProPhoto space.

yes, shall we ask Adobe to change its internals ?

There are printers that can render more than AdobeRGB in some colours.  DxO's advice is wrong and their clipping of colours even when optionally trying to output a file tagged with ProPhoto is bad programming.

true, I 'd again assume that it was/is a non issue for DxO customer base... some people consider how ACR/LR work are an example of bad programming (to sacrifice certain things in order to have a real time/close to real time UI feedback)...

Further, their comment

comment from a tech rep... never shall be trusted.

that nothing more than AdobeRGB is needed because monitors can't reproduce it is ridiculous.  Monitors today may not be able to reproduce more than, or even as much as, AdobeRGB but who knows what the future will bring.  A few years ago we had to be satisfied with monitors that could only reproduce sRGB.  Same with printers and papers.  If nothing else, using ProPhoto is future-proofing.  Why go back and have to reprocess hundreds, thousands or 10s of thousands of RAW files to take advantage of display/printing advancements in the future?

original raw files are the only future proofing... having said that - shame on DxO  :) !!! I bet they were paid by Canon, Nikon, Sony Adobe to use AdobeRGB !
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: RFPhotography on November 02, 2012, 04:17:00 pm
Bob...even Schewe is sometimes not aware how ACR/LR works inside and he writes books about that... colors... for as long as the users and their customers are happy with whatever colors DxO delivers.

No one is perfect. 


Quote
yes, shall we ask Adobe to change its internals ?

Not really sure that's necessary.  Their raw working space is a form of ProPhoto and there should be no clipping of colours if images are exported or saved and tagged with ProPhoto.  Is there a practical colour space that's larger that could be used?

Quote
true, I 'd again assume that it was/is a non issue for DxO customer base... some people consider how ACR/LR work are an example of bad programming (to sacrifice certain things in order to have a real time/close to real time UI feedback)...

But at least there are ways to work around the 'limitations' Adobe puts in its programming.  I'd not really want to work with a non-gamma corrected image (even DxO does that) but it is pretty easy to back out the Adobe render curve.

Quote
comment from a tech rep... never shall be trusted.

Which is unfortunate, but likely true.

Quote
original raw files are the only future proofing...

Only if a viable working space larger than ProPhoto is developed.

Quote
having said that - shame on DxO  :) !!! I bet they were paid by Canon, Nikon, Sony Adobe to use AdobeRGB !

You really don't like Adobe.  Almost as much as I dislike Apple.  ;D
[/quote]

Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on November 02, 2012, 10:07:25 pm
Hi,

There is a way to preserve all the colors (outside AdobeRGB) in DXO, that is to process the files as linear DNG instead of TIFF. This workflow requires that you continue the process in LR/ACR, using DXO only for optical corrections.

It made more sense in the past because of the optical correction that were not available in the previous versions of LR/ACR (Still, DXO's corrections are not just about distortion. There are other corrections for the lens+sensor combination such as "lens softness" that are unique).

A linear DNG has been demosaiced but not color encoded. In LR/ACR you could apply your favorite DNG profile, color balance and you could even generate DNG profiles out of them
.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on November 02, 2012, 10:21:14 pm
IF what DXO says is true (it isn't), how on earth can they allow their users to convert into ProPhoto and worse, when the data is a smaller gamut, Adobe RGB (1998)?


Actually the option for output from DXO are "sRGB", "AdobeRGB" and "Custom". If your want to use Prophoto RGB you need to go the "Custom" way and find the appropriate icc or icm file (some users might not even know where to find such files).
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 02, 2012, 10:26:25 pm
If your want to use Prophoto RGB you need to go the "Custom" way and find the appropriate icc or icm file (some users might not even know where to find such files).

It's pointless IF the processing color space is limited to the Adobe RGB (1998) gamut.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: deejjjaaaa on November 03, 2012, 04:35:52 pm
Not really sure that's necessary.  Their raw working space is a form of ProPhoto and there should be no clipping of colours if images are exported or saved and tagged with ProPhoto. 

the same statement is true for DxO.... Their raw working space is a form of AdobeRGB and there should be no clipping of colours if images are exported or saved and tagged with ProPhoto....

Is there a practical colour space that's larger that could be used?

there are colorspaces containing prophoto, there are operations that can be done in native camera's RGB before any demosaick and color transforms... and please do not assume that somehow prophoto coordinates are (the only or the most) practical (just because they happened to be used in ACR/LR)... there are converters other than ACR/LR and somehow there is no proof that ACR/LR delivers a better result just because of its particular design in that matter.


Only if a viable working space larger than ProPhoto is developed.

working space where ? for postprocessing in photshop ? BetaRGB for example is better even not larger... and as for a raw converter - ACR/LR is just a properly automated photoshop doing a postprocessing on prophoto coordinates/linear gamma image that's it... raw conversion there ends before you have a chance to move a single slider... then what you do is essentially postprocessing

You really don't like Adobe. 

on the contrary... since what is known as "process 2003" became a history, ACR is a good product... and PS of course... but that does not mean somehow that design decisions made eons ago were/are the ideal (they might be still competetive and practical though)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: RFPhotography on November 04, 2012, 08:42:18 am
But that's not what a number of people are saying and that's where there appears to be confusion.  It seems that the thinking is that DxO clips colours to Abobe even if the image is tagged with ProPhoto at the end of the chain when the batch is exported. Are yousaying that's not what is happening?  Have you got the proof to support that?

I understand there are larger colou spaces than ProPhoto. The point is are those practically availabe to be used. As far as other raw converters that may allow for more flexibility, again the issue comes down to how practical those are to use.  If they have to be used in cooamnd line mode, or don't have an efficient GUI, or are produced by independent programmers where support isn't availabe, or .... then those are't overly pracrical. 

Working space and for tagging images. It may all be moot with current technology since we're already clipping colours for display/editing purposes even with so-called wide gamut monitors.  I understand that the very basics of raw conversion end when you open the image in ACR/LR (and many others).  And that may already clip some colours that the camera was able to capture.  And that's my point.  If there were a larger colir space that was practical to use as a working space, but also for tagging images in order to preserve colours,that's fine. If not then it's pointless.

I'm not overly familiar with BetaRGB so don't know what advantages it may offer.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 04, 2012, 11:30:41 am
If we can believe the tech support person quoted here, DxO uses Adobe RGB (1998) as a processing color space. It has of course a fixed gamut. Colors that can be created and fall outside Adobe RGB (1998) gamut will get clipped.

An example of how ProPhoto RGB can be used within a raw processing pipeline, and the gamut implications can be seen here with REAL images:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut

A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.

High resolution:http: //digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov
Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q

This video in no way speaks to what DxO is or isn't doing since we have no idea of the technical correctness of the tech support post concerning color management in general. Certainly their take on ProPhoto RGB and bit depth seems quite nonsensical. But point of the video, (which was generated to squash some miss understandings about using Adobe RGB or worse, sRGB instead of raw and using a larger processing and encoding space) is when the goal is to gather and possibly use as much possible colors a digital camera might produce, nether is adequate in terms of gamut size. Colors get clipped.

As pointed out below, ProPhoto RGB is simply one possible container for our image data. In no way do we need to think we can or must fill it with data. The Adobe RGB (1998) container is too small if the goal is to encode all the color gamut potential of our images.

DxO isn't the only converter to use Adobe RGB (1998) not that this is ideal. I'm pretty sure that Apple's Aperture does as well.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: Ligament on November 05, 2012, 03:25:16 pm
Phenomenal video Andrew. Thanks!
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: kers on November 05, 2012, 06:03:08 pm
Andrew,

Thank you for the very instructive video. 37 useful minutes!
But because of that interesting lecture i have some questions…

At a ( nikon nx2) workshop the instructor suggested not to use the ProPhoto space but the (nikon) adobe wide gamut space instead.

he told me that since Pro-Photo space is so huge the jumps between colors ( even16 bit)  gets bigger than necessary- resulting in less color information in the file. Indeed 99,9 % of the printable colors (HP-Z3100) are inside the adobe wide gamut.
-what do you think of that idea?

the same reasoning could be applied to a color-portrait:
 is it better to use the sRGB colorspace in 16 bit for that purpose?

- what colorspace is best for BW ? 

- I have no idea of what colors my Nikon d800e can capture - How to find out?

Thanks in advance!
Pieter Kers
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2012, 06:40:08 pm
he told me that since Pro-Photo space is so huge the jumps between colors ( even16 bit)  gets bigger than necessary- resulting in less color information in the file. Indeed 99,9 % of the printable colors (HP-Z3100) are inside the adobe wide gamut.
-what do you think of that idea?

If you believe that the HP will be the last or only printer you'll ever use... The facts are, there's good and printable data we can archive from some raw converters outside of Adobe RGB (1998).

And 99% fits? I'd like to see that profile.

Quote
- what colorspace is best for BW ? 

That's an iteration from the raw or ProPhoto master.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: kers on November 06, 2012, 05:46:43 am
hello Andrew,

i was talking about the  abobe wide  colorspace not adobe 1998

here some images
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2012, 09:40:00 am
i was talking about the  abobe wide  colorspace not adobe 1998

I don't know what Adobe wide color space is (not Adobe RGB (1998))

Also, the ColorSync utility isn't really the best way to be looking at gamut maps. Yes it's free. No it's not really accurate <g>. ColorThink would provide a much better and more useful gamut plot FWIW.

Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: kers on November 06, 2012, 10:17:37 am
I don't know what Adobe wide color space is (not Adobe RGB (1998))
Also, the ColorSync utility isn't really the best way to be looking at gamut maps. Yes it's free. No it's not really accurate <g>. ColorThink would provide a much better and more useful gamut plot FWIW.
adobe wide gamut colorspace
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-gamut_RGB_color_space
and see the space attached ( nikon variant)
I also cannot find it anymore in the adobe site - possibly they abandoned it in favor of the even wider ProPhoto colorspace for good reason...
-
I am not so much into color that buying buy Colorthink would be a good investment ...

anyway - thanks for the replies..
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: RFPhotography on November 06, 2012, 10:59:56 am
Adobe wide gamut aka WideGamutRGB.

This site (http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en) is a good one for viewing profile gamuts and doing comparisons between two profiles.

While I'm not Andrew, I'll toss my thoughts in for what those are worth.  To suggest that ProPhoto is much bigger than WideGamut is a bit misleading.  If you compare the two on the site I linked above, you'll actually see that WideGamut is larger than ProPhoto in some areas - some greens, some reds/magentas/violets.  ProPhoto does contain some colours that are only 'theorectical' (i.e., outside of CIE LAB).  That may lead to some additional errors in encoding when doing more extreme editing but I'd think those would be fairly minimal.  When you consider that modern digital cameras are also capable of capturing colours outside of ProPhoto why would you want to intentionally clip colours back to a smaller space? 

As Andrew said, while the reproducible gamut of your printer may not exceed Adobe, there are printers that do now.  Technology improves.  If you force colours into a smaller space now then in order to take advantage of technology advances in the future you're going to have to go back and reprocess those older images.  Why do work twice if you don't have to?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro / dng output / color
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2012, 11:17:59 am
I also cannot find it anymore in the adobe site - possibly they abandoned it in favor of the even wider ProPhoto colorspace for good reason...

Yes exactly, Wide Gamut RGB as it's actually named by Adobe was installed in Photoshop 5 along with other RGB working spaces. It wasn't an option after that if memory serves me (certinly by Photoshop 7 it was gone). So that web page should be ignored (even though they do reference my Adobe white paper <g>).

Quote
I am not so much into color that buying buy Colorthink would be a good investment ...

No reason. I just wanted to point out that ColorThink is one of the only gamut viewers doing the viewing correctly.** If you wanted me to plot your profile there I can do so. I can also give you the exact percentage differences in two profiles thanks to ColorThink as well.

**http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Color_Management_Myths_26-28#Myth_26