Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape Photography Locations => Topic started by: MichaelWorley on May 15, 2011, 04:14:52 pm
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I’m from Arizona and should know better. But last year I signed up for a photographic workshop that promised access to numerous iconic northern Arizona and southern Utah locations. Including The Wave.
I assumed the workshop leader was a licensed guide and that he would secure the necessary permits for the people who signed up. He wasn’t and he didn’t. I’ve recently learned that even a licensed outfitter can’t get backcountry permits for others.
So this photographer, a “featured photographer” on the Singh-Ray site and a name most would recognize, exposed all his workshop attendees to serious penalties. It should have been a clue that something was amiss when he said to tell any ranger we met that we were friends out for a walk. In other words, leave him out of it.
Not one to learn too quickly from experience, I signed up for another northern Arizona workshop, mostly to accommodate a friend from out of state. This photographer, also a nationally recognized name, promised access to all manner of interesting locations owing to his familiarity with the Navajo Nation.
One of these locations had large “No Trespassing” signs at the gate where our leader parked the van. Other official signs warned that it was a violation of Navajo tribal and federal law to enter. Our leader blithely led us through and we passively followed.
Perhaps worse than trespassing was the lack of any word from our master photographer leader that we were entering onto a fragile rock formation. Instead, we each learned in turn that stepping on the subject we were photographing caused it to crumble, ruining it forever.
What are the lessons? Well, even big name guys can be idiots. Second, a photo workshop is not a way to gain easy access to places you know require permits. If you don’t know, research it on the NPS or BLM sites. If your leader insists on taking you somewhere that it’s illegal to enter? That’s something that we have to work out for ourselves. But it’s easier to work it out for yourself if you think about it in advance.
Mike
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What you describe goes way beyond a minor step out of bounds. Any workshop leader familiar with photographing in the Southwest had to have known he was engaged in seriously unethical and illegal behavior. (In the case of the Navajo workshop, it is possible that the leader had permission to go past the signs, but from your post I assume it became clear to you he had no permission.) Perhaps the best way to prevent that type of behavior is give names and details. Do you really think it is okay for future participants to "work it out" for themselves? Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
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John,
It does go beyond a minor misstep. And, after spending more than $20,000 on “workshops’” I despaired of ever finding one that lived up to the leader’s “personal statement” professing love of art and photography. If I felt as these “personal statements” imply, I wouldn’t be able to contain my enthusiasm about the things I love and would communicate them to the people paying me. Yet workshop after workshop was nothing more than a tour, with the leader pointing to some location while frequently going off somewhere else to photograph for himself, often with a favored “fanboy” from a previous workshop. Perhaps most egregious of all was a third photographer who used the workshop to extol his virtuosity and sell $8,000 in prints.
So I don’t think the behavior I described in my first post in this thread is unique. We have to be vigilant with anyone we’re not certain of.
I despaired of ever finding a true workshop led by an ethical person who could and wanted to teach and convey useful insights. I found such a person in Craig Tanner, and he was happy to share the names of other photographers he respected.
I’m reluctant to state actual names in this case, but I’ll give a puzzle. Photographer #1 lives in Arizona near Sedona, and his last name is, phonetically at least, the same as the name of an ethnic group favored by Russians and Poles for military service in the 19th and earlier centuries. This people still exists, and their name is often used in a pejorative sense by those who feel that they and their ancestors were victimized by them. Photographer #2 is based in Santa Fe, NM and in the past has been more frequently associated with large format B&W photography. His name sounds more like Kim Kardashian than Tony Sweet. Photographer #3 contributes to this very site, so I refrain from providing any clues as to his name.
Mike
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This reminds me of workshop I took in Yellowstone and the Teton's with a well known photographer. The first thing he said that we were to tell any official that we were all just friends on a trip together (in other words no license). I did get some nice images but in the future would prefer to do things on the up and up.
I would think the consequeces for violaters could be severe?
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Given the amount of money folks spend on these, I really think it's fair to name names....
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Right or wrong (very wrong IMO-its one thing to skirt some regs on your own to grab that great image, but to draw ill informed workshop menbers into it is really wrong), having had some experience leading workshops in the SW, legal access to many of these sites is virtually impossible or expensive to attain for groups, raising the cost of the workshop.
50 years ago when I first started photographing SW landscape you could go anywhere, but not anymore. Every year there are more restrictions.
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Michael,
I'm glad to hear that you had a good experience with Craig Tanner. Although it has never worked out for me to take one of his workshops, I've exchanged a number of e-mails with Craig and participated on his websites--he has always struck me as someone who truly loves to teach.
As for the photographers who won't stay within bounds...they make it worse for everyone in so many ways. If you don't feel comfortable naming names in this post, perhaps you should send them an e-mail and demand an explanation of their questionable behavior. You could let them know you intend to post their responses (or lack thereof).
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I've looked at workshops several times, but always decided against them. Mostly it boils down to ridiculous cancellation policies (no return of fees even if my spot is filled) or lack of interest in the instructor's work, but mostly lack of honest reviews. I can find thousands of reviews for a camera costing 1/10th of a standard workshop, but there are no reviews of workshops, anywhere. Hell, one can find reviews of doctors and teachers online, but photography workshops seem to be a taboo.
The only "reviews" I've seen are the praising ones on their own websites, obvious astroturfing efforts on various forums (including here), or the incestuous photography blogosphere where you are ostracized if you dare to post anything negative about anyone, except of course Ken Rockwell.
This is not a swipe at the OP, more of a general rant. Back to your usual programming.
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Michael,
I'm glad to hear that you had a good experience with Craig Tanner. Although it has never worked out for me to take one of his workshops, I've exchanged a number of e-mails with Craig and participated on his websites--he has always struck me as someone who truly loves to teach.
As for the photographers who won't stay within bounds...they make it worse for everyone in so many ways. If you don't feel comfortable naming names in this post, perhaps you should send them an e-mail and demand an explanation of their questionable behavior. You could let them know you intend to post their responses (or lack thereof).
Craig Tanner is great, and as soon as he came far enough west [Big Bend] I jumped at the chance to do a workshop. I can’t imagine a better or more varied experience. We even did things not on the menu that were designed to build confidence and help in problem solving. Not everyone did these exercises I found out later, but for my part they tore down some barriers.
I don’t think it would serve a purpose to out the idiots. They would still be idiots and I can’t think of a positive outcome from what could well develop into an unpleasant encounter.
Another reason is that it’s too late. These things need to be dealt with soon, and it’s been over a year. The reason I bring it up now is that I just returned from an outing with Paria Outfitters [Steve Dodson www.paria.com] and wanted to share what I now know. Licensed outfitters lose their license and their livelihood if they do what we’ve been talking about. Steve was very interested to hear the conditions under which I visited The Wave.
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Hey Mike,
I remember attending an outdoor workshop several years ago with you and a small group of other enthusiasts, hosted by Ron Reznick. http://www.digital-images.net/ It was a really fun group, and we had perfect May weather in Yosemite NP. Nothing but good memories and great photos from that trip. As I remember, Ron was the consumate professional who took us to some beautiful sites, at the best times for shooting, all the while emphasizing and respecting the fragility of our surroundings. I came away from the experience a better photographer, and still use the handholding technique he taught us for those times when you just don't have a tripod handy. He was also a wiz with Nikon capture and PhotoShop. If Ron still did workshops I would book another shoot with him in a heartbeat. Your post makes me cautious about randomly picking a photo guide, and, though I don't expect you to name names of the so called pros who don't live up to their billing, it would be nice to hear some recommendations from fellow enthusiasts about who they would recommend, in any and all locales.
Pat
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Hi Pat,
I remember you! You are a dentist, so everyone shunned you as I recall. :D Seriously, that was a good visit to Yosemite. And the last time I've been able to get to Glacier Point.
Ron's only shortcoming was his inability to understand the physical limitations of others. Our first workshop was Bryce in 2003. We didn't understand that we'd be expected to walk all day up and down every promontory, and then climb out at Sunset Point. I had the wrong shoes and had failed to trim my toenails. So I lost three of them! Apart from that, it was fun.
The trouble with recommending workshop leaders is that different people have different expectations. It's like recommending a car to someone you don't know.
Some people just want to be taken to the "neat" stuff and feel imposed on if the instructor asks why they chose the composition they did. Craig Tanner has image review sessions twice a day of three pictures each that the participants have submitted. But he has found from numerous surveys that virtually no one wants to hear anything negative about their work. So he says only good things. That's useful, but I feel I'm being denied something by virtue of the group's wishes. You may recall my profession. In it, my opponents are PAID to criticize, deride, make fun off and generally belittle everything I write, say or do. I can take it! Craig still said only good things.
Apparently, you have to sign up with Jay Maisel to get the straight stuff. He says bring five prints and be prepared to defend them with your life. He doesn't advertize it - because I guess everyone knows - but you need to be ready to hear phmukc in every other sentence.
Hope you're doing well up there in the Northwest. Have you seen the sun recently?
Mike
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I've done 4 workshops with Craig and that's probably the best reference I can give. Once he knows you it's not hard at all to persuade him to 'take off the gloves' for his reviews. Fwiw he's backing away from national parks workshops in part because he is so conscientious about being respectful of the rules and regulations and there is a real overhead involved with this kind of compliance.
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I've done 4 workshops with Craig and that's probably the best reference I can give. Once he knows you it's not hard at all to persuade him to 'take off the gloves' for his reviews. Fwiw he's backing away from national parks workshops in part because he is so conscientious about being respectful of the rules and regulations and there is a real overhead involved with this kind of compliance.
That is a ringing endorsement I'm happy to support. Craig's teaching style doesn't really need national parks. They're just an attraction, and I admit that Big Bend attracted me because I realized I'd probably never go there otherwise.
We photographed from the roadside and, with one possible exception outside the park, avoided any iconic views. Many in the group turned in excellent images they could have done in their backyards. One person took beautiful insect images. Craig was blown away that someone should reinforce Craig's own point to him: If you stumble along waiting for "that shot" to leap out at you, you'll miss everything along the way, and the shot probably won't leap out anyhow. A corollary is that if you seek it you will find it. This person saw and photographed insects everywhere. Neither Craig nor anyone else ever saw a bug out there.
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I find it amazing that so-called professional photographers expose themselves and their clients to risk of heavy fines or worse. Not unlike the photographer that built a fire under Delicate Arch to illuminate it at night, anyone that would take a group of people into The Wave without a permit is risking a $250.00 fine/ticket on the spot, if caught. And BLM personnel are now patrolling The Wave regularly checking for permits.
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I find it amazing that so-called professional photographers expose themselves and their clients to risk of heavy fines or worse. Not unlike the photographer that built a fire under Delicate Arch to illuminate it at night, anyone that would take a group of people into The Wave without a permit is risking a $250.00 fine/ticket on the spot, if caught. And BLM personnel are now patrolling The Wave regularly checking for permits.
Paria Outfitters is very careful about permits. Their main competition lost their license because they lost a client on an overnight outing. A guy wandered off in a diabetic haze, luckily stumbled on some canned food, but it took a wide search to find him. I don’t know more facts and maybe the penalty was harsh.
So many photographers who take up running workshops are simply clueless. They turn to workshops to augment their incomes without giving any thought to what they should provide. I think this leads them to take shortcuts and promise things they really can’t or shouldn't deliver.
Not to raise a sore point -- Michael Fatali was raked over the coals and heavily penalized for his actions at Delicate Arch – but if he’d succeeded at what he intended to do, we might have seen interesting images. Or we may well have heard nothing about it.
But Fatali’s execution sucked and he failed, exposing portions of the Arch’s base to molten burning material. The clowns we’re talking about in this thread successfully accomplished precisely what they intended to do. And what they intended to do was illegal or destructive, or both.
If it’s any consolation, Delicate Arch looks just fine after the Fatali fiasco.
Mike
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I have done several (at least in the past) workshops The best overall experience/s was with nature Workshops. Not only iconic and interesting locations but help if needed and enthusiastic leaders.
I haven't done a workshop with them in a few years but I have several award winning images from some of the workshops taken with them.
Also groups usually no larger than eight.
Most important legal with permits etc.
For what it is worth http://www.natureworkshops.com/
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Interesting reading this! I'm running workshops in Europe (currently in Italy) and there are no issues with permits. No permits are required to go into a national parc and there are no entrance posts either in all national parcs I have been to in Europe. I don't really understand why permits are required in the US as long as entrance fees are paid.
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Interesting reading this! I'm running workshops in Europe (currently in Italy) and there are no issues with permits. No permits are required to go into a national parc and there are no entrance posts either in all national parcs I have been to in Europe. I don't really understand why permits are required in the US as long as entrance fees are paid.
BLM areas like the Coyote Buttes are very fragile environments. The permits are mostly to limit access to a sustainable number of visitors. Those areas are not comparable to NPs like Yellowstone or Arches. Permit fees are very low (around $5) and available only via a lottery.
I also find quite disturbing that some well known workshop leaders bypass the law.
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Why shoot the classics anyway? (http://landshapephotography.blogspot.com/2010/10/arches-np-sunrise-junkshow.html) Yes, they are iconic for a reason but many of them have been done to death.
I am a huge advocate having folks trying to get out and finding the NEXT iconic image. Simply copying a shot that's been done 1000 times before doesn't push us a photographers. (It sounds like what Craig Tanner did with the previous poster at Big Bend.) Most of the parks I've visited are so beautiful, and yet it seems that people go to get the images that everyone else has grabbed before. It's why I love Zion's eastern plateau. So much unexplored goodness there. (http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v22/p904795252-4.jpg) Personally, I try to find the image that you HAVEN'T seen yet. :)
There is much more to it, and I don't want to come off as arrogant, because it's not my intention. I'm just trying to get people to look at all of the beauty that's out there.
Oh yes, and do things legally.... :)
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Amen brother!
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Interesting reading this! I'm running workshops in Europe (currently in Italy) and there are no issues with permits. No permits are required to go into a national parc and there are no entrance posts either in all national parcs I have been to in Europe. I don't really understand why permits are required in the US as long as entrance fees are paid.
Prior to my retirement I administered special use permits for the Federal government as part of my job.
As someone else noted one reason is to protect the natural resources from overuse and damage.
In the United States, it is much more of a free market economy and the government wants its "fair share" from for profit operations on public lands. It is the fact that you are engaging in commercial activity on public lands that automatically triggers the permit requirements.
This is really no different than a hunting guide on public lands, a timber sale, or placement of a cell tower on public lands. They all pay a fee. Now granted Congress made the fees REAL LOW for some businesses like cell phone companies, but that is a separate issue.
One question that you will be asked if you apply for a permit is why you REQUIRE public lands for your business. If you can conduct your business on private land, then it will be much harder to get a permit. So if you are running photography workshops....do you really need to conduct your business on public land??
Another question is how will the public benefit from your business being on public land? For example, back-country horse packers provide a unique recreational activity that many people that otherwise would be unable to do that. Likewise, effective cell tower location in many places throughout the west requires placement on public lands.
Getting a permit is not for the faint of heart. You will have to comply with environmental laws like NEPA, ESA, and countless others and PAY for the studies to prove your activity will not harm the environment or have no significant environmental impact.
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Interesting reading this! I'm running workshops in Europe (currently in Italy) and there are no issues with permits. No permits are required to go into a national parc and there are no entrance posts either in all national parcs I have been to in Europe.
This is not entirely accurate. At least in Austria, the situation is similar to the US - commercial shootings and photography workshops on public land and in national parks administered by the National Forest Agency (bundesforste.at) will require a permit (see price lists here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_film.pdf) and here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_events.pdf)). The rational is the same - resource protection and the government wanting its share.
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This is not entirely accurate. At least in Austria, the situation is similar to the US - commercial shootings and photography workshops on public land and in national parks administered by the National Forest Agency (bundesforste.at) will require a permit (see price lists here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_film.pdf) and here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_events.pdf)). The rational is the same - resource protection and the government wanting its share.
There's no one Europe, and making generalizations is doomed to failure. Many laws differ wildly across borders even within EU countries.
When I lived in the US, a mother of a friend of mine prepared Italian food for me (a Finn) since she thought it would make me feel like home :P True story.
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There's no one Europe, and making generalizations is doomed to failure.
That was my point (although certain people in Brussels will strongly disagree :))
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This is not entirely accurate. At least in Austria, the situation is similar to the US - commercial shootings and photography workshops on public land and in national parks administered by the National Forest Agency (bundesforste.at) will require a permit (see price lists here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_film.pdf) and here (http://www.wildmedia.at/fileadmin/user_upload/WILD.MEDIA/Dokumente/OEBF_tariffs_events.pdf)). The rational is the same - resource protection and the government wanting its share.
Thanks for that info. Please note that I said "...where I have been." ;)
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The Wave without a permit is risking a $250.00 fine/ticket on the spot, if caught. And BLM personnel are now patrolling The Wave regularly checking for permits.
If the photographer is from out of state or out of the country, how can the ranger make that fine stick? Maybe they should just send them straight to jail or make them paid the fine at the spot. >:(
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If the photographer is from out of state or out of the country, how can the ranger make that fine stick? Maybe they should just send them straight to jail or make them paid the fine at the spot. >:(
That's known as a "bribe" in other countries...
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Ignorance of the regulations is not a defense.
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Why shoot the classics anyway? (http://landshapephotography.blogspot.com/2010/10/arches-np-sunrise-junkshow.html) Yes, they are iconic for a reason but many of them have been done to death.
I am a huge advocate having folks trying to get out and finding the NEXT iconic image. Simply copying a shot that's been done 1000 times before doesn't push us a photographers. (It sounds like what Craig Tanner did with the previous poster at Big Bend.) Most of the parks I've visited are so beautiful, and yet it seems that people go to get the images that everyone else has grabbed before. It's why I love Zion's eastern plateau. So much unexplored goodness there. (http://www.landshapephotography.com/img/v22/p904795252-4.jpg) Personally, I try to find the image that you HAVEN'T seen yet. :)
There is much more to it, and I don't want to come off as arrogant, because it's not my intention. I'm just trying to get people to look at all of the beauty that's out there.
Oh yes, and do things legally.... :)
+1
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World Renowned Fantasy Canyon Loses Beloved Formation
http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/info/newsroom/2006/09/world_renowned_fantasy.html (http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/info/newsroom/2006/09/world_renowned_fantasy.html)
This happened in 2006, but I was wondering if anyone has heard more about the investigation into the destruction of the teapot in Fantasy Canyon? I never got to see it.
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I completely agree, why would anyone want to be taken around to the same locations in a group where everyone gets the same shots, I've never got workshops. When I go to any national park I go to discover it for myself, let my eyes lead me rather than somebody leading me to what they like with 10 people in tow.
The best thing that happened to me in Zion was no dogs allowed on the buses so that made me have to explore more remote parts of the park, I didn't see another soul anywhere and got great shots.
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I completely agree, why would anyone want to be taken around to the same locations in a group where everyone gets the same shots, I've never got workshops. When I go to any national park I go to discover it for myself, let my eyes lead me rather than somebody leading me to what they like with 10 people in tow.
The best thing that happened to me in Zion was no dogs allowed on the buses so that made me have to explore more remote parts of the park, I didn't see another soul anywhere and got great shots.
I organize workshops in Europe and as one participant said after a photo critique session: He was amazed how different the pictures were and that there were absolutely no duplicates from the different participants. When I started this, I thought like you. But in fact what I encourage people to do when we do a longer stop is that they walk into the landscape to get different views. Last time in the Dolomites one participant had been gone for about an hour and then he turned up again. I was beginning to worry. Most other don't go that far.
The value of a workshop leader imho is that he has done all the ground work to find the good spots and knows what time it's the best and can also based on the weather select where to go at any point in time. It does require a lot of research before announcing a certain area for a workshop. I typically will have spent several trips to an area and several weeks to find the spots. I also do the same before each workshop to find new spots. I would expect that any serious workshop leader would do the same.
If certainly not saying that you can't go on your own and for some people this maybe the best. For others they will value the research that had gone before the workshop. Also the inspiration from other photographers to find new angles and compositions has proven valuable. I have had beginners and very experience photographers and they all expressed getting great value from working in a group making the shots and doing critiques where they would see what the others had achieved.
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The reasons workshops are so appealing to many people is they don't want to put in the truly hard work before hand. When I go to a "new" spot, I've researched it well in advance. I've inquired for local knowledge on forums like this, scoured the net for images of the place(s), maybe bought a guide book or two, researched sunrise, sunset, moon phase, sun angle, roads, trails, looked at the place 1,000,000 times on google earth, etc, etc, etc. I know where I need to be, when I need to be there. I also have multiple back up plans on what do to if conditions change. I don't know that many people willing to put in that amount of effort. All it cost me is my time but I enjoy doing it.
With a workshop, others have already done all that leg work. All the shooter has to do is show up and follow directions. Now there is nothing wrong with that and many people pay handsomely for the service.
Different strokes.
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As the economy worsens, and it becomes easier for many people to have their pet image printed for $10 at Costco, it is more and more difficult for landscape-type photographers to make a living taking and selling pictures. What is left is leading tours and writing books. It is very easy to gather people to go on a tour. Just put an out an ad for some cool location you might know a little about and gather your flock. It is much more difficult to lead a successful tour, and the skills that make a good photographer have nothing to do with the skills that make a good teacher/leader. There are poor leaders who care nothing for "doing it right" after they cash your check. There are also fabulous leaders who may just become lifelong friends. I have associated with both. Maybe what we need is a 'better business bureau' type of a site where tour participants can discuss and rate their experiences. And our failure to detail the individuals who "do it wrong" just means they are free to do the same thing in the future with a new group of unknowing people. On the other hand, the good ones should be rewarded with accolades, so maybe they will be successful and can continue to offer their services in the future.
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My general way is just to wing it and use my instinct, but sometimes I do alot of research depending on how much time I have. I think it's better that way to learn as a photographer, to learn when will be best at a location for light, how to search out interesting spots once you arrive somewhere. For me I feel it's the only way to get something unique.
How much does a workshop cost?
As I'm in the middle of a 7 month trip in north America, covered loads of places east to west and it's only cost me £12000 including buying a car. I've had all the time in the world to explore for myself.
The entire time I have used my wing it approach, obviously I pre plan where to stop that will be visually interesting, but the rest I leave for my eyes to discover when I'm there.
I like this approach as I can never be disappointed and rarely don't get a great shot.
Whist in the Canadian Rockies last for the last few weeks I would explore for the mountain formations I thought were nice and then search for a spot based on that. It's easy to know when the best time to be there is just from seeing it and know the sunset/rise a
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I think that those who have had bad experiences with photographers leading expeditions should name names. Without naming names, you're not helping us avoid those who have developed bad business practices. It's a bit too late for us to want our money back when we're on a tour and in the middle get told "we're just friends on a walk". These photographers are engaging in borderline criminal activity. That needs to stop. And without naming names, they'll continue to do what they do and get away with it. The community at large can only benefit from further information.
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What are the lessons? Well, even big name guys can be idiots. Second, a photo workshop is not a way to gain easy access to places you know require permits. If you don’t know, research it on the NPS or BLM sites. If your leader insists on taking you somewhere that it’s illegal to enter? That’s something that we have to work out for ourselves. But it’s easier to work it out for yourself if you think about it in advance.
I think one clue might be how many workshops the person offers. I know some very fine photographers who spend the majority of their time doing photography but who do a small number of workshops. From what I have seen these people devote themselves 100% to the business of teaching and supporting their workshop clients and take the rest of the responsibilities.
Not to generalize too much - there are exceptions to every rule, of course - but a photographer whose primary business as a photographer seems to be teaching workshops and perhaps writing articles may or may not be the best choice.
Also, in some cases it might be a good thing to report the workshop leader to area authorities. I've heard stories of a small number of workshop leaders in the eastern Sierra running other photographers out of areas, or negatively impacting the environment... and then getting into some degree of trouble over this when an alert person reported it to the forest service. On one hand, you don't want to be a "tattle tale," but on the other you also have future workshop participants to think about.
Dan
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On one hand, you don't want to be a "tattle tale," but on the other you also have future workshop participants to think about.
Tattle tale? Seriously? What is this, schoolyard playground? We're not only talking about thousand + dollars per each workshop attendant in wasted money, but also potentially irreparable damage to some of the most pristine locations on earth, and perhaps worse. These unscrupulous workshop runners should be called out, and proper authorities contacted.
If you buy a $2000 camera and it doesn't work, you get a new one or your money back. If you attend a workshop which is nothing but a barely guided trip to a beautiful location instead of the "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take your photography to the next level,"* people don't seem to feel they have the right to demand at least a partial return.
Why is it ok to write objective and open reviews of cameras and software, but not to tell the truth about workshops which are advertised prominently here and elsewhere. I've tried finding such reviews, but every single one of them is either useless sycophantic adulation in search of return clicks or perhaps kick-backs and discounts, cherry-picked "customer experiences," or a thinly veiled ad.
I haven't attended a workshop, but I guarantee that when/if I ever do, I will write a thorough review of it, regardless of my negative/positive experience. And I will name names.
* that's not a quote from any workshop ad I know of, but could be. So if someone is using that phrase it's an unfortunate coincidence, not a reflection of that workshop.
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I have two reactions to this:
1. Workshop leaders who knowingly engage in illegal activities should be reported to the appropriate authorities.
2. When your workshop turns out to entail engaging in illegal activities, you are entitled to bail (which admittedly could be a little difficult if you have been vanned into the middle of nowhere) and get a full refund, plus your incidental expenses in getting to it. File a fraud claim with your CC company at the least.
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Speaking as someone who has taken many photography oriented trips (including Joseph Van Oz, Mountain Light, Barclay/Sniffin & Bruce Barnbaum - all excellent by the way) the idea of rating tours and tour leaders has tremendous merit. We rate cameras and other products online, we rate hotels, restaurants and other services online, why not ad photo based trips to the mix? Seems like it could only raise the bar and help us all in the trip selection process. I have no idea how this could be done, but maybe it could be set up on a forum such as this...
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Sorry to check in late; have not been here a lot of late.
A couple of years ago, I started to look for a workshop. After a lot of looking, I decided on 2 photographers whose work spoke to me, only to find that they had quit doing workshops. Oh well.
The lack of independent feedback was a big minus to me. IIRC, they opened up a workshop review section on the Nikon Cafe which got a dozen reviews.
Talking to a couple of folks, apparently these workshops were *really* popular when the economy was booming. And were badly needed by some to fill the hole caused by the collapse of the stock photo business.
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I'm glad to see this being discussed here. Unethical workshop leaders are one of my HUGE pet peeves. I lead workshops and private guided tours in Arches, Canyonlands and Grand Teton National Parks. Every year I go through the process of obtaining a CUA for each park (actually, Arches and Canyonlands are covered by one permit), which includes paying the fee, providing proof of liability insurance and CPR/First Aid certification. I've had numerous clients tell horror stories about workshops they'd been on with big-name photographers who didn't have the proper permits and told the participants to tell rangers they were "friends, photography clubs, etc.". It's pathetic and inexcusable.
I've developed a strong relationship with my contacts in the NPS and each year I provide them with a list of photographers who are conducting workshops in their parks so that they can investigate whether they've secured the proper permits. Several times, they have not.
Perhaps slightly off-topic, but another thing that drives me batty are workshop leaders who teach simply because they need the money - not because they find it rewarding. A couple years ago I was leading a workshop and we ran into another workshop group led by a very well known photographer. He was nowhere to be found while his participants floundered. I finally located him, 300 yards away and all alone with his tripod photographing a glorious sunrise. Not at all cool.
As potential workshop participants, I encourage you to ask questions BEFORE you register and pay for a workshop. Ask the leader if he has the permits, then call the managing agency to verify it. Ask workshop leaders to provide you with references you may contact. Definitely check cancellation policies and get everything in writing. In short, do your homework.