Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: worldburger on April 21, 2011, 09:57:09 am

Title: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: worldburger on April 21, 2011, 09:57:09 am
Hey guys,
So I have a 7900.  It's just out of warranty and I have gotten a clog in the light black ink which manifests on the same line of the nozzle check pattern after each run.  Sometimes it's the entire line and sometimes it's just 2/3's of all the steps in the line.

I've done multiple cleanings (regular, pairs, power), put it in maintenance/service modes and done CL2, CL3, and CL4 cleanings, and printed MANY nozzle check patterns.

The printer had previously been unused for a few months (but turned on and off to do nozzle checks and cleanings, occasionally) and prints had been done successfully in January (50+ sq ft).

I am near Indianapolis and I have a company scheduled to come look at it today but it's expensive (2hr roundtrip drive @$65/hr plus $145/hr labor) and they think it's the pump and ___ assembly which will run $250ish for a grand total of at least $500.

Then there's the reality that the printer had service in service where the printer was drinking ink for cleanings which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Any suggestions on ways I might de-clog the printer before I commit to the service?  I do have some cleaning solution I had used before on my Epson 4000 which de-clogged just about any problem I ever had.

David
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 10:06:44 am
Have you called Epson tech support to discuss the issue? Regardless of the warranty status, they are normally responsive and helpful, and they may be able to answer these questions before you spend all that money. Did you bring these defects to their attention while the printer was still under warranty? If so, I wonder whether that would give you grounds for repair support on their account, as an unresolved issue from during the warranty period, but I'm not certain of the legalities. It would be good to get a second opinion on whether a defective pump assembly could cause nozzle drops only specific to the part-row you mention. This sounds weird, even though I'm no printer tech. I would surmise that a problem with a pump assembly would show more pervasive issues.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Randy Carone on April 21, 2011, 10:17:45 am
If only one color is problematic it could be the damper for that ink. Doubt it is the pump if only one line is starved for ink.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 10:22:23 am
If only one color is problematic it could be the damper for that ink. Doubt it is the pump if only one line is starved for ink.

What's a damper? I'm interested, because I'm seeing rather unique Cyan nozzle check gaps on my 4900 if not used for more than a couple of days.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Randy Carone on April 21, 2011, 10:40:34 am
The damper is a small plastic ink reservoir just above the print head that holds a small amount of ink. I just tried to copy a page from a Service Manual pdf with no luck. If you Google 'ink dampers' you should be able to find a picture of one. Most users of Mutoh, Mimaki and Roland replace dampers fairly regularly. They all use Epson heads, but the dampers are not the same as on Epson aqueous printers. If you find a pic it will be immediately obvious what function they perform.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 10:42:30 am
The damper is a small plastic ink reservoir just above the print head that holds a small amount of ink. I just tried to copy a page from a Service Manual pdf with no luck. If you Google 'ink dampers' you should be able to find a picture of one. Most users of Mutoh, Mimaki and Roland replace dampers fairly regularly. They all use Epson heads, but the dampers are not the same as on Epson aqueous printers. If you find a pic it will be immediately obvious what function they perform.

Thanks Randy.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: deanwork on April 21, 2011, 10:44:21 am
Dampers are the small filters that filter the pigments as they pass from the ink lines going to the ink carts to the print heads. Often what ends up clogging dampers is residue from cotton rag papers as well as impurities in the inks themselves.

Each ink cart has its own damper which is attached to the bottom of the print head. With piezo printers like Epson, Roland, and Mimaki, dampers are often the first mechanical thing to check when head cleanings can't solve the blocked nozzles. Dampers are cheap and fairly easy to replace and are available for just about every Epson printer that has been made. If you run a lot of cotton paper you should change them more often. Normally you take the head cover off and you can access them fairly easily.

I believe Roland recommends changing out their dampers regularly and unlike Epson, they make it very easy to accomplish.

Changing the dampers won't help you if you have defective pressurized ink carts though.

john
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 10:47:08 am
Thanks for the added clarification John. I should think on a new printer one would not expect trouble from this source, unless it is somehow defective out of the box, if that's possible.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on April 21, 2011, 11:15:28 am
Thanks for the added clarification John. I should think on a new printer one would not expect trouble from this source, unless it is somehow defective out of the box, if that's possible.
And it also should not be problematic if you do a lot of printing with IGFS (which I know you do ;)) since there is not much dust on that paper relative to a number of others.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Randy Carone on April 21, 2011, 11:33:21 am
Clogged dampers may be an occasional problem, but the most common damper problem is a pinhole that allows minute amounts of air to seep into the ink line, resulting in a bad nozzle check that can be temporarily alleviated with cleanings but will return shortly after.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 11:34:41 am
And it also should not be problematic if you do a lot of printing with IGFS (which I know you do ;)) since there is not much dust on that paper relative to a number of others.

Right, and I wonder also how dust would get into the ink supply chain between the cartridge and the print-head. I thought that system would be closed from anything entering from the outside.

Mark
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 11:36:14 am
Clogged dampers may be an occasional problem, but the most common damper problem is a pinhole that allows minute amounts of air to seep into the ink line, resulting in a bad nozzle check that can be temporarily alleviated with cleanings but will return shortly after.

Ahah, this starts to sound like something relevant to my issue with the Cyan channel. Perhaps I should re-discuss with Epson if I see it persisting.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Farmer on April 21, 2011, 11:57:35 am
Hmmm, not sure how a damper would get a pin hole in it, Randy. Cracking can occur (during transport or usage over time) but it would have to be a pretty specific hole to let air in, since dampers are one of the places air can actually escape/bubbles clear/settle.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Randy Carone on April 21, 2011, 12:35:35 pm
In the 12+ years I have sold printers, small holes in dampers has been the most common problem with ink delivery. I don't know how the holes are generated - I used the term 'pinhole' loosely - but they do occur. Maybe it is poor quality injection molding, poor quality plastic raw material and small breaks in the ink line where it connect to the damper. Some dampers have an O ring that seals the assembly. I have seen splits in the O ring that have been the source of air bleed but I don't know if all Epson dampers/selectors have the O ring component.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 21, 2011, 01:03:09 pm
The damper is a small plastic ink reservoir just above the print head that holds a small amount of ink. I just tried to copy a page from a Service Manual pdf with no luck. If you Google 'ink dampers' you should be able to find a picture of one. Most users of Mutoh, Mimaki and Roland replace dampers fairly regularly. They all use Epson heads, but the dampers are not the same as on Epson aqueous printers. If you find a pic it will be immediately obvious what function they perform.

The "dampers" on the X900 series print heads are actually quite different from those on older models. Not sure about the X890 series, but I suspect they have a similar arrangement. On older models each ink line had a separate damper which fed the ink to the print head. On the X900 these are actually called "selectors". There are two ink selectors, attached to a unit(board), which in turn is attached to the back of the print head after it has been installed. Each selector has six ink feed connections, one of which is not used, obviously. Also, each selector receives ink lines in the same order as on the control panel. I've had two replacement heads installed on the 9900 and have been very attentive during the procedure, asking questions along the way as well. I also have the service manual and I'm now looking at it as I write. I believe each selector can be replaced individually but I'm not certain about that. Actually, I imagine the whole assembly(both selectors and board) would be replaced as one unit. That was not one of the questions I asked.

David,
Concerning the warranty issue, I was told by a tech at Epson that they usually have a bit of a "grace period" after the warranty has expired if one is having severe problems, especially if there's a record of previous issues with the printer. This also applies to those who might have planned on extending the warranty but had let it expire without realizing it. I recently extended the warranty on the 9900 because of the issues I've had and I'm glad I did. I am presently awaiting another service call due to a problem I noticed after the last head placement, which was about three weeks ago. Banding in the PK and what appears to be a situation in which the printer is not printing at the resolution I have chosen in the driver. I quite often print at 720dpi when the image allows and that is now looking more like 360 since the new print head. The extended warranty on these printers is NOT inexpensive, but I consider it an important part of doing business. Another insurance policy of sorts I suppose. I would suggest an extension might be the next step if you are still having problems that you can't seem to remedy.

Gary
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on April 21, 2011, 03:11:50 pm
In the 12+ years I have sold printers, small holes in dampers has been the most common problem with ink delivery. I don't know how the holes are generated - I used the term 'pinhole' loosely - but they do occur. Maybe it is poor quality injection molding, poor quality plastic raw material and small breaks in the ink line where it connect to the damper. Some dampers have an O ring that seals the assembly. I have seen splits in the O ring that have been the source of air bleed but I don't know if all Epson dampers/selectors have the O ring component.

With the older models: The seals of the damper connectors are the most likely place to let air in or with enough ink pressure ink out (seldom). The membrane (most likely PET) thermo/ultrasonic welded on the polyethylene damper house could have a leak at the weld, cleaning them with a syringe had that risk of pulling them apart there. Older dampers showed less flexibility in the membrane and the small stainless steel spring inside could in theory puncture the membrane in time. The membrane is there to equalise ink pressure on feeding and demand and adapt the ink pressure to the atmospheric pressure, at least on the the older Epsons including some pressurised models. It could be that it changed in newer models and another ink pressure control is used.

It wouldn't surprise me if the new damper model includes a sensor that actuates a valve in the ink line when the ink pressure/feed near the head drops, the opened valve to fill the ink buffer again. Something like that existed on the 10000 model but there internally in the head assembly.

With OEM carts the risk to get filth in the lines in negligible but pigment settling (say coagulation) in the ink can build up a barrier on the damper's sieve in time or with infrequent printer use. Inks have improved though.

Air in the head shows when the bad nozzles change in quantity and place. Frequent cleanings may not help at all, sometimes a night's rest does more. Thermal heads suffer less of air as the nozzle channel is less complicated and the thermal pump can still function with some air enclosed, piëzo pumps need fluid to create the pumping action, any air there will just act as an air spring and the ink isn't pumped.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: worldburger on April 21, 2011, 11:09:15 pm
So I called Epson Pro support again, they sent out a notification to Decision One (who had done the service call 1.5 years ago on this printer).  They gave me an estimate.  $450ish incl labor for the pump and cap assembly repair.

As this is a documented issue I've had, Epson said I could talk to customer service about reimbursement or them covering it.  I'll call them tomorrow about it.

As far as maintenance I can do myself, what is to do with the dampers?  Where do you buy these?  Is there anything else I can do to try and fix this myself?  On my 4000 I'd just put some cleaning solution in a syringe and pump some onto the place the print head sits when it's parked, but I don't even know what that'd be on the 7900 because there seems to be two places it goes when it parks.  Ideas?

Thanks (and stumped),
David
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 21, 2011, 11:15:46 pm
So I called Epson Pro support again, they sent out a notification to Decision One (who had done the service call 1.5 years ago on this printer).  They gave me an estimate.  $450ish incl labor for the pump and cap assembly repair.

As this is a documented issue I've had, Epson said I could talk to customer service about reimbursement or them covering it.  I'll call them tomorrow about it.

As far as maintenance I can do myself, what is to do with the dampers?  Where do you buy these?  Is there anything else I can do to try and fix this myself?  On my 4000 I'd just put some cleaning solution in a syringe and pump some onto the place the print head sits when it's parked, but I don't even know what that'd be on the 7900 because there seems to be two places it goes when it parks.  Ideas?

Thanks (and stumped),
David

Two points here, both of which point to doing nothing:

(a) no clarity on what the cause of the problem really is;
(b) if you are into a discussion with Epson about them covering the issue, don't muddy the waters by tinkering with the machinery yourself.

My two cents-worth.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 22, 2011, 10:07:00 am
So I called Epson Pro support again, they sent out a notification to Decision One (who had done the service call 1.5 years ago on this printer).  They gave me an estimate.  $450ish incl labor for the pump and cap assembly repair.

As this is a documented issue I've had, Epson said I could talk to customer service about reimbursement or them covering it.  I'll call them tomorrow about it.

As far as maintenance I can do myself, what is to do with the dampers?  Where do you buy these?  Is there anything else I can do to try and fix this myself?  On my 4000 I'd just put some cleaning solution in a syringe and pump some onto the place the print head sits when it's parked, but I don't even know what that'd be on the 7900 because there seems to be two places it goes when it parks.  Ideas?


David,

From what I've seen during service calls on the 9900 and in the Service Manual and Field Repair Guide, it would seem that there are few areas of these printers that are easily accessible to the user. As an example, to access the pump/capping station and wiper blade for removal on the 7600, it was a rather simple matter of removing the right end cover. To reach that point on the 9900 requires a much more time consuming and complicated procedure. And of course the pump/cap station assembly for the 9900 is also considerably more sophisticated. However, once there I don't believe the installation is much more involved than on older models. It's my opinion that this may very well be the easiest of all components to replace on the X900 series printers, and perhaps ironically, one of the most important. Also, it  would seem to be one of the lesser expensive parts to replace. However, one must have access to the proper manuals before attempting this procedure. As the last tech to work on my 9900 said, "my goodness, there certainly are a lot of screws to be removed". Of course I am quoting from memory and not verbatim. However, that statement did not instill in me a lot of confidence in his knowledge of this printer, as I have stated in a recent post on this forum. I hope you have some good luck with Epson concerning this matter. Also, you should consider calling Epson after the service has been completed and plead your case for replacement of some of the ink you have wasted trying to solve this matter yourself. They are usually quite compliant in that regard, especially in warranty situations. Another reason to consider a warranty extension, especially for these models.

Good luck and keep us "posted"!

Gary
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Thelo on April 22, 2011, 01:44:10 pm
I've done multiple cleanings (regular, pairs, power), put it in maintenance/service modes and done CL2, CL3, and CL4 cleanings, and printed MANY nozzle check patterns.

Have You tried supersonic cleaning in service mode?
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 01:49:35 pm
Gary and Thelo,

If it were me at the stage David is at, not knowing the real cause of the problem and with Epson now re-involved in the issue, I would do NOTHING. Let Epson's designated service rep come there, do their thing, then see if they resolved it, and from there deal with the warranty coverage aspect. If he really knew exactly what the problem is and would run truly minimal risk messing around in the printer himself, I may advise otherwise, but not in present circumstances.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Thelo on April 22, 2011, 03:16:02 pm
Gary and Thelo,

If it were me at the stage David is at, not knowing the real cause of the problem and with Epson now re-involved in the issue, I would do NOTHING. Let Epson's designated service rep come there, do their thing, then see if they resolved it, and from there deal with the warranty coverage aspect. If he really knew exactly what the problem is and would run truly minimal risk messing around in the printer himself, I may advise otherwise, but not in present circumstances.

That might be a good idea.

Supersonic cleaning was recommended to me by the Epson to solve the continuing clogging problem with Epson 9900. I was also told by the reseller that it would not harm the machine but also that I should not use the device in four hours because of the head heating.

Ran the ss-cleaning about a week ago. Can't tell yet if it has helped. Two minor clogs in cyan since...
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 03:28:00 pm
To be clear, I don't think a major cleaning would do any harm, unlike tinkering in the machine which could. The real problem with a major cleaning is the huge amount of ink it wastes, which is not advised unless one knows the problem really is a clog which that approach would correct.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Farmer on April 22, 2011, 04:56:57 pm
There's no need to wait 4 hours after an SSCL.  However, you shouldn't run multiple SSCLs consecutively and it's best to do them only when all else fails.

If the head truly got so hot as to need 4 hours to cool down, it'd melt :-)
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 22, 2011, 07:22:56 pm
i skipped the thread to the bottom so sorry if this is redundant.

the way to prove it you have a damper issue is to do a damper swap.  just move a functioning color's damper/ink line to the bad color and vice versa.  don't disconnect anything.  run a cleaning cycle to get the heads flowing.  if the color moves to the new color position, than bad damper if not bad head performance.

that said.  a missing line won't be caused by a bad damper.  a bad damper causes ink starvation over the length of a print.  a constantly missing line is a clogged nozzle only.  clogs that jump around are capping station issues.

there is no way a tech should be called out for a missing line.  that would be a crime.   also, the 7900 has a universal capping station making it impossible for just one color to be affected unlike previous machines where the caps could isolate the issue.  just do a head soak (pour cleaning solution into the cap and let the head soak for a few minutes , reloading the cap if it goes down.  also get to the pump and inspect to see if the lines look clean.  common clog points will be directly beneath the cap and at the end of the drain tube.  you can pour cleaning solution down your pumps and even have a friend feed solution while you agressively draw with a syringe at the drain end to loosen a clump of ink.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 07:39:31 pm
i skipped the thread to the bottom so sorry if this is redundant.

the way to prove it you have a damper issue is to do a damper swap.  just move a functioning color's damper/ink line to the bad color and vice versa.  don't disconnect anything.  run a cleaning cycle to get the heads flowing.  if the color moves to the new color position, than bad damper if not bad head performance.

that said.  a missing line won't be caused by a bad damper.  a bad damper causes ink starvation over the length of a print.  a constantly missing line is a clogged nozzle only.  clogs that jump around are capping station issues.

there is no way a tech should be called out for a missing line.  that would be a crime.   also, the 7900 has a universal capping station making it impossible for just one color to be affected unlike previous machines where the caps could isolate the issue.  just do a head soak (pour cleaning solution into the cap and let the head soak for a few minutes , reloading the cap if it goes down.  also get to the pump and inspect to see if the lines look clean.  common clog points will be directly beneath the cap and at the end of the drain tube.  you can pour cleaning solution down your pumps and even have a friend feed solution while you agressively draw with a syringe at the drain end to loosen a clump of ink.

I reread the OP. There's a history with this printer. It had problems while in warranty. It was serviced, and now it has problems again. Are these problems connected? Is the current problem the result of something that was not done properly during the last service call when the machine was under warranty? If this gentleman now starts playing with parts in his printer will Epson even entertain the idea of paying for an out-of-warranty service call based on previous issues? People handing out gratuitous advice about how to muck around in the printer's entrails without having a friggin' clue what the problem actually is ought to think twice. Owners of these printers are not supposed to be in-house amateur technicians. The printers were not sold on that basis and they are not meant to be serviced on that basis. These printers are supposed to just work. But this machine has a service history, it has service problems, it's new enough to be just out of warranty - let Epson and the owner get it figured out the way Epson recommends.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 22, 2011, 08:21:27 pm
head soaks and damper swaps are hardly mucking around.  it is the equivalant to checking your oil. 

and as far as having a freaking clue.  i've been working on printers for 12 years.  i can tell pretty much exactly what's going on mechanically in a printer with a simple description.  in fact i invented the damper, pump tube, and cap top swap many years ago that just recently technicians have adopted instead of throwing parts at a machine.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: TylerB on April 22, 2011, 08:24:27 pm
I've been inside a lot of Epsons, as well as watching techs work inside a lot of Epsons, including several repairs of my 9900, watching carefully. I would not attempt a damper replace on an x900. Earlier models, with the proper manuals, tools, and a fair amount of time, sure try it if it's out of warranty and not worth much. I've replaced capping stations etc. in older Epsons.
But an x900, no way, they are different... and I suspect some advice about this is coming from folks who have not been inside an x900.

Let's hear someone recommend this who has personally replaced dampers in a 7900 specifically, and also offers step by step instructions.
Tyler
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 09:56:32 pm
I've been inside a lot of Epsons, as well as watching techs work inside a lot of Epsons, including several repairs of my 9900, watching carefully. I would not attempt a damper replace on an x900. Earlier models, with the proper manuals, tools, and a fair amount of time, sure try it if it's out of warranty and not worth much. I've replaced capping stations etc. in older Epsons.
But an x900, no way, they are different... and I suspect some advice about this is coming from folks who have not been inside an x900.

Let's hear someone recommend this who has personally replaced dampers in a 7900 specifically, and also offers step by step instructions.
Tyler

Exactly, and at the same time whoever does this should also indicate, a priori, exactly how they know this particular machine definitely, without a doubt, needs its dampers replaced. I really think there are conditions in which armchair advice reaches its limit, no matter what the advisers have invented or performed, and all the more so when the OP, whose skill, equipment and experience to do this kind of stuff we know nothing about, is in a discussion with Epson about extending his coverage on the work.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 22, 2011, 10:11:24 pm
that's where a tech coming in and doing a "damper" replacement without proper diagnostics kills the ability to follow scientific method.  if your tech doesn't do a damper swap, then how can one know if that damper is defective.  all that tech has done is charge the client (if out of warranty) money for what "may" be the problem.  

and as for dampers... if you are missing one line, it's not dampers.  the damper is to far removed from the head manifold to the jet to be able to single out a one particular jet and clog it.  

and this isn't "armchair" advice.  i am extremely experienced with ink train issues on printers.  i just replumbed my entire mimaki with a cleaning system (designed by me) transporting all the dampers to the outside of the of the head carriage as well as designing a custom spot color piggy back cartridge.  so not only do i know how to fix ink train issues,  i also can build them custom for special manufacturing processes.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 10:41:51 pm
that's where a tech coming in and doing a "damper" replacement without proper diagnostics kills the ability to follow scientific method.  if your tech doesn't do a damper swap, then how can one know if that damper is defective.  all that tech has done is charge the client (if out of warranty) money for what "may" be the problem.  

and as for dampers... if you are missing one line, it's not dampers.  the damper is to far removed from the head manifold to the jet to be able to single out a one particular jet and clog it.  

and this isn't "armchair" advice.  i am extremely experienced with ink train issues on printers.  i just replumbed my entire mimaki with a cleaning system (designed by me) transporting all the dampers to the outside of the of the head carriage as well as designing a custom spot color piggy back cartridge.  so not only do i know how to fix ink train issues,  i also can build them custom for special manufacturing processes.

I agree with you that whatever tech goes there should diagnose the problem using correct technical procedures.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 22, 2011, 11:26:10 pm
sorry if i sounded a little "soapbox"...  i'm new on this board, but a long time major contributor on signs101 helping members with diagnostics...
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 22, 2011, 11:34:14 pm
Gary and Thelo,

If it were me at the stage David is at, not knowing the real cause of the problem and with Epson now re-involved in the issue, I would do NOTHING. Let Epson's designated service rep come there, do their thing, then see if they resolved it, and from there deal with the warranty coverage aspect. If he really knew exactly what the problem is and would run truly minimal risk messing around in the printer himself, I may advise otherwise, but not in present circumstances.

With all due respect, I believe that if you read my previous posts concerning this matter you will find that never have I advised anyone to delve into the guts of a 7900/9900 printer. As a matter of fact, the closest I have come to offering that sort of advice was to suggest that, in my opinion, the easiest part to replace by the user "might be" the pump/cap station. However, at no time have I ever suggested or advised anyone to actually take on that task. Upon reading my previous posts you will also notice that on more than one occasion I have advised extending the warranty. The reason I did that was simply the fact that I will NOT be venturing into the 9900 service business on my own machine any time soon. It's not an animal I want to tangle with. I have enough issues with my 9900 as it is, without causing more. And as I also mentioned, I think it would be an excellent idea for Epson to make sure their field techs are well and properly trained. The first fellow who worked on my machine was very knowledgeable in my opinion, but the second tech left a lot to be desired in that regard. Again, my opinion, but one based on personal observation as well as the fact that he didn't bother to run even one head alignment after installing a new head. I did that myself when I found a subsequent problem. And now it's been almost two weeks since my last call to Epson and no service call yet. However, I was told that they are having problems getting parts now. Perhaps the aftermath of the situation in Japan, don't know.

So, in an attempt to be more clearly understood, unless your X900 series printer is a couple of years old and well out of warranty, I would NEVER advise anyone to start "changing the oil", as has also been mentioned in another post. If the machine IS past its warranty period and you're having some recurring difficulties and don't want to pop for the service call, well, knock yourself out!

One small piece of advice I will pass along though. If you do decide to tackle it yourself, be prepared to make that call eventually.

Gary
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 22, 2011, 11:43:43 pm
Fair enough.

Interesting comment on the parts situation. This is the first I hear of problems at Epson, but we should not be surprised, and only hope for their sake and ours that things come back to normal sooner rather than later. It's hard to imagine the complexities that must be involved with recovering from this kind of disruption given how modern manufacturing processes operate.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Thelo on April 23, 2011, 01:55:11 am
There's no need to wait 4 hours after an SSCL.  However, you shouldn't run multiple SSCLs consecutively and it's best to do them only when all else fails.

If the head truly got so hot as to need 4 hours to cool down, it'd melt :-)

"Hey, have You seen our new printer? It is really HOT!"  :D

What You say might well be true, anyway I did what I was told so if warranty service is needed there is no room for speculations.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Farmer on April 23, 2011, 02:39:03 am
Signs 101 is a *very* different market place and technical maitenance expectation/capacity compared to photographers that you'll find here.  What's more, the *900 series Epsons are a far cry from Rolands and Mimakis and even Mutoh and Epson solvent.  Of course they share some basic principles, but for someone without experience or training to replace a damper is entirely unreasonable.

What's more, as for your invention of the process of replacing dampers etc as opposed to "throwing parts at the machine", well, I really don't know what to say.  No one's been throwing parts at machines as opposed to replacing appropriate parts for a very long time, across any manufacturer, assuming they're competent technicians.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 23, 2011, 03:19:18 am
for the longest time printer techs have had a general "tune up" rule for printer repair.  similar to when you take a car in for diagnosis.  and the mechanic says "let's give it a tune up to eliminate accumulative issues", etc.  dampers, wipers, cap tops, etc have been the norm for a pre-diagnostic approach.  as well as replacing entire pumps when "rebuilding" only requires replacing a tube that runs through the pump (the pumps are peristaltic).  these "tune ups" amount to the demons in each individual printer never being understood.  by swapping pump lines, dampers, cap tops, and data ribbons the exact source of the ink supply or data, ... whatever can be pin pointed.  whether a printer owner does or doesn't repair the printer, it's good to know the basic fluid dynamics of the machine.  when you do get to know the printer, you will see how truly unmagical it is that the ink makes it from the cart' to the jet.  and or to the wast bottle.  understanding these basic principles will help a printer owner much faster discern just why his machine is clogged and get back to printing.   the print test pattern can tell if you have a seal issue, cracked manifold, clogged head, bad capping assembly, bad pump, bad data, bad ink.... just by looking at the pattern.  it is the finger print of the machine's state of being.  i've found that many techs don't know how to read these tiny clues to the issue at hand.   being certified as a printer tech doesn't mean that you are a printer guru.  there's only so much training a person can receive in a certification program. the rest comes from that thousandth repair.  

as for signs101.  if someone does have a pritner out of warranty.  post a question there.  you will be immediately helped by guys that have long since fired their printer techs.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 07:45:57 am

What's more, as for your invention of the process of replacing dampers etc as opposed to "throwing parts at the machine", well, I really don't know what to say.  No one's been throwing parts at machines as opposed to replacing appropriate parts for a very long time, across any manufacturer, assuming they're competent technicians.


Shucks, I'm disappointed to read this - colourful images were going through my mind about what to expect if an Epson tech ever had to come to my house to service a couple of (non-fatal) issues on my 4900, whether the machine would survive the bombardment, whether I should invite the grandchildren over to watch.........and so on :-)
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 07:48:11 am

Two minor clogs in cyan since...

This is interesting because I'm getting minor Cyan clogs in my 4900 if I don't use the printer for several days. They go away with a one-pair simple cleaning, but it's a nuisance.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 08:03:16 am
for the longest time printer techs have had a general "tune up" rule for printer repair.  similar to when you take a car in for diagnosis.  and the mechanic says "let's give it a tune up to eliminate accumulative issues", etc.  dampers, wipers, cap tops, etc have been the norm for a pre-diagnostic approach.  as well as replacing entire pumps when "rebuilding" only requires replacing a tube that runs through the pump (the pumps are peristaltic).  these "tune ups" amount to the demons in each individual printer never being understood.  by swapping pump lines, dampers, cap tops, and data ribbons the exact source of the ink supply or data, ... whatever can be pin pointed.  whether a printer owner does or doesn't repair the printer, it's good to know the basic fluid dynamics of the machine.  when you do get to know the printer, you will see how truly unmagical it is that the ink makes it from the cart' to the jet.  and or to the wast bottle.  understanding these basic principles will help a printer owner much faster discern just why his machine is clogged and get back to printing.   the print test pattern can tell if you have a seal issue, cracked manifold, clogged head, bad capping assembly, bad pump, bad data, bad ink.... just by looking at the pattern.  it is the finger print of the machine's state of being.  i've found that many techs don't know how to read these tiny clues to the issue at hand.   being certified as a printer tech doesn't mean that you are a printer guru.  there's only so much training a person can receive in a certification program. the rest comes from that thousandth repair.  

as for signs101.  if someone does have a pritner out of warranty.  post a question there.  you will be immediately helped by guys that have long since fired their printer techs.

I can relate to some of what you say here, as there is a wide range of practices amongst service personnel in terms of whether to diagnose or replace; I suppose that largely depends on the kind of situation they are dealing with and whether certain kinds of disassembly make commercial or technical sense. I'd be surprised if Epson trained people to mindlessly change parts regardless of the details of the case at hand. But a lot of service is farmed out to third parties, so one depends on their technical integrity.

I too think it's a good thing to understand the basics of the equipment one is using. It at least helps to ask the right questions and keep the service people on their toes. Beyond that, without specialist training and experience, I personally wouldn't venture.

At this point, I should ask you whether you have specific experience servicing x900 series printers. While I have no basis to necessarily disbelieve what you are saying about diagnosing nozzle check patterns, I would appreciate hearing confirmation from anyone familiar with the servicing of x900 series printers just how much one can diagnose from looking at the nozzle check pattern. Because if that's the case I would like to send to you, or to anyone else who knows, images of Cyan clogs for diagnosis.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on April 23, 2011, 08:31:41 am

as for signs101.  if someone does have a pritner out of warranty.  post a question there.  you will be immediately helped by guys that have long since fired their printer techs.

What has been the expectation/experience of members of the signs101 forum with Epson entering that market with an ecosolvent printer, the GS6000 ? The printer technology must be somewhat equal to the recent Epson waterbased models. Is that printer fitting in that climate of DIY printer maintenance and is Epson coöperating with that approach?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop

http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 23, 2011, 10:55:45 am
This is interesting because I'm getting minor Cyan clogs in my 4900 if I don't use the printer for several days. They go away with a one-pair simple cleaning, but it's a nuisance.

WOOOW!!! I think I may have developed a hitherto unknown malady. Perhaps we could call it "Printer Envy". If that were the only issue I had to deal with on the 9900 I'd be a very happy camper. Now please don't take that the wrong way Mark. I am in no way minimizing the negative effects or nuisance factor associated with occasional cyan dropouts due to lack of usage, but here's where the printer envy takes over. Within the first six months of use the 9900 nozzles were dropping to the extent that I could not do more than one large print in succession without a nozzle check and subsequent cleaning(s). That finally prompted the first service call and a new pump/cap station assembly. However, since I'd rather not risk lulling everyone into a deep sleep, I will not repeat my current issues since the last service call a couple of weeks ago.

I also enjoyed your post about the disappointment you felt after reading some recent posts and having to reconsider your plan to have the family over and declare what amounts to a local holiday in the event that you have a service call on the 4900. Hey, don't give up hope yet, it ain't that bad! Get the party hats ready, lots of cake and goodies and keep the teach happy as well.

I apologize if my comment concerning the Japanese situation and possible repercussions in our business may have seemed somewhat unsympathetic. It was most certainly not meant to convey that feeling and I hope no one took it that way. On hind site I felt that it may have been misinterpreted. The enormity of that situation is truly mind boggling and one can only try to imagine surviving it and rebuilding a life. My comment was based solely on what the tech mentioned in relation to the fact that the flow of parts had been considerably slower recently, and taking that into consideration I contacted my distributor and asked about inks. I was told that they hadn't really noticed any supply problems yet, and also the fact that not all Epson inks are made in Japan of course.

Have a great Easter weekend and happy printing.

Gary   
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 11:24:10 am
WOOOW!!! I think I may have developed a hitherto unknown malady. Perhaps we could call it "Printer Envy". If that were the only issue I had to deal with on the 9900 I'd be a very happy camper. Now please don't take that the wrong way Mark. I am in no way minimizing the negative effects or nuisance factor associated with occasional cyan dropouts due to lack of usage, but here's where the printer envy takes over. Within the first six months of use the 9900 nozzles were dropping to the extent that I could not do more than one large print in succession without a nozzle check and subsequent cleaning(s). That finally prompted the first service call and a new pump/cap station assembly. However, since I'd rather not risk lulling everyone into a deep sleep, I will not repeat my current issues since the last service call a couple of weeks ago.

I also enjoyed your post about the disappointment you felt after reading some recent posts and having to reconsider your plan to have the family over and declare what amounts to a local holiday in the event that you have a service call on the 4900. Hey, don't give up hope yet, it ain't that bad! Get the party hats ready, lots of cake and goodies and keep the teach happy as well.

I apologize if my comment concerning the Japanese situation and possible repercussions in our business may have seemed somewhat unsympathetic. It was most certainly not meant to convey that feeling and I hope no one took it that way. On hind site I felt that it may have been misinterpreted. The enormity of that situation is truly mind boggling and one can only try to imagine surviving it and rebuilding a life. My comment was based solely on what the tech mentioned in relation to the fact that the flow of parts had been considerably slower recently, and taking that into consideration I contacted my distributor and asked about inks. I was told that they hadn't really noticed any supply problems yet, and also the fact that not all Epson inks are made in Japan of course.

Have a great Easter weekend and happy printing.

Gary   

Gary, I didn't think for a moment your comment on the supply situation from Japan was unsympathetic - I took it simply as a statement of unfortunate fact. You too, have a good holiday weekend.

Mark
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 23, 2011, 12:53:00 pm
please do upload a pic of your test pattern.  on signs101 usually the first reply is "pic please" (meaning "let me see the pattern").  

here are some basics (i'm heading out so can't make this too detailed).  the pattern or inidvidual patterns are of course what's going on at the head.  ink missing from one side, or top to bottom, or intermittent misses all describe a different issue.

intermittent moving missing nozzles (bad vacuum)  usually a cap top not making good contact or the check valve inside the cap leaking.  so you are getting vacuum but it's hit and miss.  you can set a syringe on the bottom of the waste line and listen for a very very quiet sucking sound or you will see tiny bubbles mixing with your ink coming down the line.  old or new, a printer can have a bad assembly.  

missing on one side (top, left, right, bottom).  caps not meeting plumb with the head platen.  the effect is like taking a suction cup and pulling air in from one side.  thus the ink fades.

deflected nozzle pattern (clogged jets)

halo missing in the middle (clogged manifold screen.  a filter is located inside the head manifold that is much finer than the one in the damper)

warping or over printing in the test pattern (bad data, can be the head, ink that has run down into the data port, loose ribbon)

colors mixing in the pattern (wicking between the cap top and head platen, swollen dap sponge or  head set too low)


also ther extensive discussion about the gs6000 on signs101.  but it does look like the hp latex has it beat.



Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 01:25:04 pm
Here you go. All the rest are fine.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 23, 2011, 01:43:42 pm
that's clogged and deflected nozzles.  if you've exhausted the cleaning cycle option, which it seems you have.  the next thing to do is a head soak.  i'm assuming epson provides some kind of cleaning solution for their inks.  pour some solution into the cap so that it fills with solution.  some caps drain some hold fluid it all depends on the manufacturer (the pump has one position that is "closed" by rotating to a certain point).  if epsons rotate to the closed position than it will fill.  now keep in mind that the solution is sitting on top of air trapped in the pump tubes so it will go down and need to be refilled until the air has escaped the lines beneath the cap.  now it the x900 has an open line, you will see the fluid continuously disappear into the cap and hear it falling into the waste tank or cleaning station, etc.  in this case, you will either need to clamp off the pump tube coming out of the bottom of the capping station.  on some of my printers that has been right in plain sight.  other it's been the removal of a panel, etc.  one easy access point it the very bottom of the waste line.  you can put a small nail or whatever into the bottom of the drain tube and the cap will start holding fluid.  of course come back here and there checking to see that you are getting fluid contact at the base of the head.  one thing, this can cause a bit of color contamination by whicking.  you might in your patterns start seeing magenta bleeding into the cyan.  don't worry about this.  just concern yourself with the pattern's progress.  and when you are doing these patterns, number them in chronological order so that you can accurately track which jets are coming clean, are they moving around, being stubborn etc.

i can't believe any of this can be considered "warranty" ending.  it's not like you did anything to the printer other than let epson approved fluid touch the machine.  
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 01:56:04 pm
Thanks, but when I see this happen, I go to the printer's LCD menu (this is a 4900 - have you worked on one of those?), press the a>A button, scroll to Nozzle Clean>Manual>Cyan/VM pair and press > Clean. It takes about a minute or less and then I reprint the nozzle check pattern and it is all-clear. Easy enough, but my question is why this happens curiously to this one channel systematically when the printer has been idle for a few days. I've lodged this issue with Epson America and the discussion isn't over yet. The printer is under warranty, so they need to tell me whether this is a fixable issue with my printer or endemic to the printer model.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: TylerB on April 23, 2011, 02:22:23 pm
I really don't think that's clogging, I think it's ink starvation. Not sure why it occurs in C a lot. You'll notice more missing nozzles at the bottom than top, means the head is not full of ink in that color according to my tech. With these far more complex pressurized systems in these models, and the valves, etc, lack of ink tends to be the problem, not clogs.
I was also told by my tech that this model should be turned off when not in use rather than left on per previous wisdom. The startup process should bring up pressure and ink into the heads.
That's the theory.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 02:40:14 pm
I really don't think that's clogging, I think it's ink starvation. Not sure why it occurs in C a lot. You'll notice more missing nozzles at the bottom than top, means the head is not full of ink in that color according to my tech. With these far more complex pressurized systems in these models, and the valves, etc, lack of ink tends to be the problem, not clogs.
I was also told by my tech that this model should be turned off when not in use rather than left on per previous wisdom. The startup process should bring up pressure and ink into the heads.
That's the theory.


I think you and your tech are correct. This printer is too new and has done too few sqft (about 120, all using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk which does not shed anything) for clogging to be taking place, unless there is a defect with the ink batch in that cartridge. This is the cartridge the printer came with and I am still using. Now, what I posted is only the latest sample. I've kept all the nozzle checks, and they vary. Several are like that. Several just have two or three empty single-segment gaps in various places; several have numerous gaps all over, and one was almost empty. I think this varied behaviour would also be consistent with an ink starvation diagnosis - if it need not be starved in the same way all the time.

So then the question becomes one of why the starvation is taking place, and whether it would eventually ruin the head. Something is not happening according to the theory. As far as Epson has advised me from back in the days of the 4000, one always turns the printer OFF when not in use, so the head parks in its station and lessens the risk of drying-out. That is routine practice for me. I also keep the top paper feed lid shut, and I drape the printer with a large piece of fabric which does not shed particulates and keeps dust away. I think my maintenance is vanilla, and I think the printer has a defect which Epson still needs to answer for.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 23, 2011, 03:13:27 pm
that's clogged and deflected nozzles.  if you've exhausted the cleaning cycle option, which it seems you have.  the next thing to do is a head soak.  i'm assuming epson provides some kind of cleaning solution for their inks.  pour some solution into the cap so that it fills with solution.  some caps drain some hold fluid it all depends on the manufacturer (the pump has one position that is "closed" by rotating to a certain point).  if epsons rotate to the closed position than it will fill.  now keep in mind that the solution is sitting on top of air trapped in the pump tubes so it will go down and need to be refilled until the air has escaped the lines beneath the cap.  now it the x900 has an open line, you will see the fluid continuously disappear into the cap and hear it falling into the waste tank or cleaning station, etc.  in this case, you will either need to clamp off the pump tube coming out of the bottom of the capping station.  on some of my printers that has been right in plain sight.  other it's been the removal of a panel, etc.  one easy access point it the very bottom of the waste line.  you can put a small nail or whatever into the bottom of the drain tube and the cap will start holding fluid.  of course come back here and there checking to see that you are getting fluid contact at the base of the head.  one thing, this can cause a bit of color contamination by whicking.  you might in your patterns start seeing magenta bleeding into the cyan.  don't worry about this.  just concern yourself with the pattern's progress.  and when you are doing these patterns, number them in chronological order so that you can accurately track which jets are coming clean, are they moving around, being stubborn etc.

i can't believe any of this can be considered "warranty" ending.  it's not like you did anything to the printer other than let epson approved fluid touch the machine.  

OH MY!!!  In my HUMBLE opinion, this sort of activity would almost definitely jeopardize the warranty on the 9900. It's also rather obvious to me that our resident tech has probably never worked on a 7900/9900 printer. Removing the end covers on these machines is a task to begin with. Remember my post where I quoted one tech(again, not verbatim) as follows "my goodness, there are certainly a lot of screws to be removed". He was referring to the removal of the two end covers only at that point. And he's quite correct. To get to that point the top cover has to be removed, all ink carts have to be removed(not sure why) and a couple of other procedures as well, just to get the end covers off. All of this in order to pour some sort of Epson sanctioned cleaning fluid into the cap station(s), and hope. Again, if that's your cuppa tea, knock yourself out. And again, in my opinion, Bye Bye Warranty!

Don't know, can't say for sure, just a thought.

My joke du jour is as follows:  Q: What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?   A: I don't know and I don't care!

Gary
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 03:18:43 pm
OH MY!!!  In my HUMBLE opinion, this sort of activity would almost definitely jeopardize the warranty on the 9900.

Gary

You're probably correct, but in my case it's an academic issue. This is an Epson problem. A new printer should not be doing this, period. Their responsibility to find the solution. I'm a firm believer in the theory of comparative advantage, and not muddying the waters.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 23, 2011, 04:17:28 pm
well you can visually see the deflected nozzles printed in the pattern.  and the newness of the head should mean that it shouldn't be having issues.  but there are bad heads out there, right out of the box.

the term "ink starvation" means that over the course of printing, the printer's supply system can't keep up with the demand.  if you get a bad pattern before printing than the term doesn't apply.

as for bad ink, that would be seen across the head.

...you mentioned that patterns vary... go back and study your patterns...  see if there are single jets that never ever print compared to ones that are here and there.  this will tell you a lot about what is going on at the head platen.   constant moving around of the pattern is a sign of air leaking during the ink being drawn into the head by the capping station. 

but with your printer this is less likely, because you mentioned that C and vM clean together as a pair.  bad cap seal will not be able to isolate this issue to one channel.  it would be happening to both C and vM.

as for the head soak, i haven't seen a x900 in person.  but it doesn't appear to me that the capping station isn't within reach of a squirt bottle.  slide the head carriage to the left and there you go, capping station.   and no, you don't have to be an epson tech to fix an epson.  these machines are all the same and have been for 12 years.  that's like needing to be a camaro tech.

Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Farmer on April 23, 2011, 05:21:09 pm
You might want to actually see an Epson 900 series printer before giving too much technical advice, or before saying that they're all the same for the last 12 years.  The differences between, say, an Epson Stylus Pro 7000 and an Epson Stylus Pro 4900 are substantial, to say the least.

Your comments about nozzle patterns is fair enough and I think most people here are across those concepts. 

Mark - there's an entire forum for Epson printers at Signs 101 (and for each manufacturer, basically), but it's not the kind of place they like random public registering - they have a general warning on the front page that effectively says it's for professional sign and display printers - but anyone can read.  It's a very different market with solvent where DIY maintenance and repair is common place on what are essentially much simpler machines being used to much lower specifications.  That's changing to a degree, and I think the change is accelerating.  Higher quality printing with low solvent is now quite a useful niche, but very low cost, basic quality printing is still the mainstay of solvent.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 05:46:48 pm
well you can visually see the deflected nozzles printed in the pattern.  and the newness of the head should mean that it shouldn't be having issues.  but there are bad heads out there, right out of the box.

the term "ink starvation" means that over the course of printing, the printer's supply system can't keep up with the demand.  if you get a bad pattern before printing than the term doesn't apply.

as for bad ink, that would be seen across the head.

...you mentioned that patterns vary... go back and study your patterns...  see if there are single jets that never ever print compared to ones that are here and there.  this will tell you a lot about what is going on at the head platen.   constant moving around of the pattern is a sign of air leaking during the ink being drawn into the head by the capping station. 

but with your printer this is less likely, because you mentioned that C and vM clean together as a pair.  bad cap seal will not be able to isolate this issue to one channel.  it would be happening to both C and vM.

as for the head soak, i haven't seen a x900 in person.  but it doesn't appear to me that the capping station isn't within reach of a squirt bottle.  slide the head carriage to the left and there you go, capping station.   and no, you don't have to be an epson tech to fix an epson.  these machines are all the same and have been for 12 years.  that's like needing to be a camaro tech.



Bad ink can be one colour.

There are no jets that never ever print.

The pattern isn't constantly moving around - it just differs from one machine start-up to the next. It's fine during printing. The trouble is on start-up only.

You can't just slide the head to the left on this printer, and even if it were all that simple, one would need to know what the problem is to know whether the squirt bottle is the solution. I think there is an ink droppage or dryout in that head which happens when the machine isn't working for more than a day or two, but why remains unresolved. It's not even clear to me that just because C and VM get cleaned as one pair, they are sealed as a pair. Just haven't seen service diagrams for the 4900 print head so I don't know, and I think anyone who hasn't seen the service diagrams wouldn't necessarily know either.

Anyhow, thanks for trying. It's been a useful discussion.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 23, 2011, 05:54:31 pm


Mark - there's an entire forum for Epson printers at Signs 101 (and for each manufacturer, basically), but it's not the kind of place they like random public registering - they have a general warning on the front page that effectively says it's for professional sign and display printers - but anyone can read.  It's a very different market with solvent where DIY maintenance and repair is common place on what are essentially much simpler machines being used to much lower specifications.  That's changing to a degree, and I think the change is accelerating.  Higher quality printing with low solvent is now quite a useful niche, but very low cost, basic quality printing is still the mainstay of solvent.

Phil - yes I'm aware. And no I won't be tinkering in my printer or adding solvent or doing anything of the sort. I have two issues with this machine, neither of them are a train smash, Epson America knows what they are, and they remain unresolved. I've been treading lightly because there may be issues in the company due to the situation in Japan, but sooner or later Epson will have to do the needful and I expect they will.

Turning back to the main topic of this thread - the 7900 - and Gary's experience with his 9900 - I have colleagues here in Toronto using both of these printers extensively and they sing the praises of them. This means they are capable of first-rate performance. Needless to say, any piece of complex machinery can have issues, and one hopes the manufacturer retains an interest in going the extra mile to keep their reputation intact. This is a very competitive market segment.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Garnick on April 24, 2011, 12:45:25 am
Turning back to the main topic of this thread - the 7900 - and Gary's experience with his 9900 - I have colleagues here in Toronto using both of these printers extensively and they sing the praises of them. This means they are capable of first-rate performance. Needless to say, any piece of complex machinery can have issues, and one hopes the manufacturer retains an interest in going the extra mile to keep their reputation intact. This is a very competitive market segment.

I agree with your colleagues Mark, these printers are very capable of the first-rate performance of which you speak.  When they are performing up to their potential they are a joy to work with. However, after reading posts on this forum concerning possible issues with these machines I began a log the first day I started printing with the 9900. That list of issues, mostly repeatable issues, has grown to more than 60 entries and has served me well when talking to the folks at Epson and the onsite service techs as well. I too keep a collection of nozzle checks, dated and timed to coincide with my log entries. With these I can show the techs exactly what is happening and they can then diagnose the situation with a higher degree of accuracy. All of this to say that I will continue to be in touch with Epson as often as I deem necessary to keep the printer doing the job it was meant to do.

I believe you also mentioned that these X900 series printers should not have the nozzle dropouts and other issues you are experiencing. And again I agree, they shouldn't. But keep this in mind Mark. The last tech I talked with at Epson about two weeks ago was a fellow who, in my opinion, was one of the most straight shooting techs I had experienced. I again explained my situation and of course he had my file of past calls to read as well. One of the first things he said was this, " I assume you are aware that nozzle droputs not unusual on these machines". He's the first person at Epson who has actually uttered these words to me. I agreed of course, but I also told him that I had been using two 7600 printers for many years without the frequency of problems I had been experiencing with the 9900. He had no answer to that statement, except to arrange another service call. I'm hoping that will happen very soon, but I guess the local service techs are still waiting for parts. Rather suspect I think. I will place another call to Epson on Monday to have them track the situation, again.

You're quite correct, this has been a very interesting thread. Some helpful information and perhaps some not so helpful, but interesting all the while. And just so you know Mark, I'm not far from The Big Smoke myself. Perhaps we shall meet sometime. I will continue to follow your posts regardless. And I will continue to keep you posted on my progress with the mighty 9900.

Gary
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: artbot on April 24, 2011, 01:18:34 am
well if it's not so good on start up but fine as the printer starts "warming" up after printing and such.  there is a term "vapor lock" meaning the print head simply is resisting the positive pressure of the ink in the tiny lines and needs a little encouragement.   then all is well.  i developed a white ink that i printed from an old encad 505 more than 10 years ago.  using the ink always required a bit of manual cleaning and raising that that cart' a little to get the ink going which i knew was a slightly higher viscosity than the other colors.  this is why damper swapping can be of good use.  the ability to see if you can move the issue to another channel is essential to diagnosing if the issue is on the supply or vacuum side.  there was a guy that did glass printing with a custom ink from dupont that pulled his hair out with issues before we discovered by thorough diagnosis that he received a batch of ink that the viscosity was off.  

as for further contributing to this thread, i'm out.  i not really digging the mood here.  i know so much about making printers work, it will boggle the mind and i'm not really enjoying being "patted on the head", so to speak.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Farmer on April 24, 2011, 02:05:46 am
Perhaps if you were a little more humble and realised that there are people here with decades of experience or industry involvement instead of assuming that we all know nothing, you might be better received.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 24, 2011, 07:52:29 am
I agree with your colleagues Mark, these printers are very capable of the first-rate performance of which you speak.  When they are performing up to their potential they are a joy to work with. However, after reading posts on this forum concerning possible issues with these machines I began a log the first day I started printing with the 9900. That list of issues, mostly repeatable issues, has grown to more than 60 entries and has served me well when talking to the folks at Epson and the onsite service techs as well. I too keep a collection of nozzle checks, dated and timed to coincide with my log entries. With these I can show the techs exactly what is happening and they can then diagnose the situation with a higher degree of accuracy. All of this to say that I will continue to be in touch with Epson as often as I deem necessary to keep the printer doing the job it was meant to do.

I believe you also mentioned that these X900 series printers should not have the nozzle dropouts and other issues you are experiencing. And again I agree, they shouldn't. But keep this in mind Mark. The last tech I talked with at Epson about two weeks ago was a fellow who, in my opinion, was one of the most straight shooting techs I had experienced. I again explained my situation and of course he had my file of past calls to read as well. One of the first things he said was this, " I assume you are aware that nozzle droputs not unusual on these machines". He's the first person at Epson who has actually uttered these words to me. I agreed of course, but I also told him that I had been using two 7600 printers for many years without the frequency of problems I had been experiencing with the 9900. He had no answer to that statement, except to arrange another service call. I'm hoping that will happen very soon, but I guess the local service techs are still waiting for parts. Rather suspect I think. I will place another call to Epson on Monday to have them track the situation, again.

You're quite correct, this has been a very interesting thread. Some helpful information and perhaps some not so helpful, but interesting all the while. And just so you know Mark, I'm not far from The Big Smoke myself. Perhaps we shall meet sometime. I will continue to follow your posts regardless. And I will continue to keep you posted on my progress with the mighty 9900.

Gary

Thanks Gary - would be a pleasure to meet sometime. I hope when they're able Epson does the needful so you can get to the bottom of your issues with the 9900. It's not good to invest so much in these machines and then suffer the aggravation and productivity loss. I also think if that tech were correct in his assessment of the drop-out situation, Epson would get a lot more mileage from its customers by acknowledging it, developing workarounds, and publishing material on "best-practices" for handling it. In such a situation they would earn respect.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Shane Webster on April 25, 2011, 09:18:54 am
Quote
because I'm seeing rather unique Cyan nozzle check gaps on my 4900 if not used for more than a couple of days.

Mark-- I've constantly had clogs with my 4900's Cyan printhead and now have a nozzle that will not unclog (I've performed about 10 cleanings, including 4 or 5 power cleanings).  I've called Epson to report the problem and they're exchanging my printer.
Title: Re: Clogged Light Black Ink on Epson 7900 (same line on each nozzle check pattern)
Post by: Doombrain on April 28, 2011, 11:33:57 am
Dampers are the small filters that filter the pigments as they pass from the ink lines going to the ink carts to the print heads. Often what ends up clogging dampers is residue from cotton rag papers as well as impurities in the inks themselves.

Each ink cart has its own damper which is attached to the bottom of the print head. With piezo printers like Epson, Roland, and Mimaki, dampers are often the first mechanical thing to check when head cleanings can't solve the blocked nozzles. Dampers are cheap and fairly easy to replace and are available for just about every Epson printer that has been made. If you run a lot of cotton paper you should change them more often. Normally you take the head cover off and you can access them fairly easily.

I believe Roland recommends changing out their dampers regularly and unlike Epson, they make it very easy to accomplish.

Changing the dampers won't help you if you have defective pressurized ink carts though.

john

sorry, but this is rubbish.