Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mcfoto on April 02, 2011, 10:49:42 am
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Any thoughts on the new Mac Pro laptops using Thunderbolt and not USB 3.0? Even the new Phase One back is using USB 3.0. Why another port or why did Mac not support USB 3.0?
Denis
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Any thoughts on the new Mac Pro laptops using Thunderbolt and not USB 3.0? Even the new Phase One back is using USB 3.0. Why another port or why did Mac not support USB 3.0?
Denis
Seems quite standard for Apple. The idea of them adding USB 3 after PC's already have it? How does adding USB 3! make an Apple-like splash? It doesn't. So, Apple, being Apple, create their own standard that eclipses. Love them or hate them for it, but Apple is not a follower.
Steve Hendrix
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Thunderbolt will allow you to connect via USB 3, as soon as the proper adaptors are available. When that will be is anyone's guess.
See http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/02/thunderbolt-smokes-usb-firewire-with-10gbps-throughput.ars for a pretty good explanation of what Thunderbolt is capable of.
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So, Apple, being Apple, create their own standard that eclipses. Love them or hate them for it, but Apple is not a follower.
Actually, Thunderbolt is an Intel initiative, not Apple's. Apple jumped on it first but other PC makers will follow.
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From what I understand, Apples main involvement was to help Intel create the copper connector, and adapted the mini-display port to handle both display and thunderbolt protocols. Certainly it may have been more than that, but for this, Intel gave them a 1 year "exclusive", I assume that means other PC makers can't use the port ... hopefully other types of devices can or the port will have little application.
As far as USB 3, personally I think it's probably short lived ... while it sounds impressive, Thunderbolt blows by it, and is projected to scale to 10 times its current bandwidth. Given apples intimate knowledge of Thunderbolt(LightPeak) I'm not surprised they decided to skip USB 3.
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From what I understand, Apples main involvement was to help Intel create the copper connector, and adapted the mini-display port to handle both display and thunderbolt protocols. Certainly it may have been more than that, but for this, Intel gave them a 1 year "exclusive", I assume that means other PC makers can't use the port ... hopefully other types of devices can or the port will have little application.
As far as USB 3, personally I think it's probably short lived ... while it sounds impressive, Thunderbolt blows by it, and is projected to scale to 10 times its current bandwidth. Given apples intimate knowledge of Thunderbolt(LightPeak) I'm not surprised they decided to skip USB 3.
Hum... except it doesn't make sense to have exclusivity for an interface. An I/F gains value by adoption through the number of peripherals supporting it. :)
From that standpoint Apple is heading straight for a repeat of firewire that had some value compared to USB 2.0, but USB 2.0 was good enough. I am aware of the differences in terms of licensing between Firewire and Thunderbolt, but I don't think that is significant.
Intel's lack of support of USB3.0 will only hurt them, I don't think it will change the market dynamic very significantly.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Intel is supporting usb 3.0 this is an old article from intel
http://blogs.intel.com/technology/2008/06/usb_30_for_the_masses_dispelli.php?wapkw=(usb+3.)
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Unlike either Firewire or USB, Thunderbolt is a true bus protocol implemented at the chipset. Apple's implementation is quite elegant and IMHO make a lot of sense. Intel's next generation of workstation (x79) should be out next fall, I'm very curious what the Thunderbolt connector implementation will be......
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Hum... except it doesn't make sense to have exclusivity for an interface. An I/F gains value by adoption through the number of peripherals supporting it. :)
agreed, that's why I commented most likely the exclusive is only PC makers, otherwise the interface is pointless. I believe some drive makers have already announced plans to implement it, and I think CAnon has also announced they will implement it. It will take some time for this to trickle into these peripherals, so delaying it in other brands of PC's really doesn't dilute it, since by the time significant numbers of devices support it the exclusive will be over.
Thunderbolt should render USB 3 a legacy interface. this isn't a firewire/USB thing. Thunderbolt blows firewire and USB 3 out of the water ... lets hope we don't get stuck with it.
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The "exclusivity" turned out to be a misunderstanding by a journalist. Apple has a head start, but they don't have an exclusive.
Here's a reference: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380954,00.asp
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A couple weeks ago I asked the Apple rep at a Best Buy what products are available for Thunderbolt and he said "none yet". I asked an Apple Store sales assistant the same question and got the same answer. In addition, there were no adapters available yet, so running a second monitor for an extended desktop is not even possible.
Obviously, there's no advantage to a new connector/protocol is there's no hardware available, no matter how good it is.
A quick search showed this page (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-utilize-macbook-pros-high-speed-data-transfer-with-upcoming-thunderbolt-devices-2011-2). Hardware is coming soon.
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You can use the old convertors for monitors by the way.
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Hi Denis,
The Phase IQ Backs are FW800 as well. But they are certainly touting that they have USB3 for future connection.
Apple had their own agenda with Thunderbolt or Lightpeak at the time of USB 3 so obviously they are going to support that beyond USB 3. But it could be included in the future as Intel have officially given their full support to it recently just after the launch of Thunderbolt. But unless there is a widespread embrace of it, which I'm not sure there will be they won't jump on to it. They want to be pioneers of this, and tout it as their format so will push it above all and want to replace all connections with TB. Monitors, drives, all peripherals.
Above all though, Thunderbolt is really way ahead of USB3 so I don't think it will even happen officially.
Phase One could rebadge a third party USB PCIe card when a reliable cross-device one exists. Either that or commission one and develop their own. A couple have surfaced, such as Lacie, but they only work, and limitedly apparently with their own drive. Either that or dump USB 3 for TB eventually. Sadly, not great timing for them at all. Doesn't help on laptops though...and I'm sure most of the big manufacturers see the value of the higher performing TB.
The chances of adapters are possible but not as great as you might think given that TB needs to be implemented at motherboard level. TB itself needs graphics processing also for it to work and it's not even certain if you're going to be able fit a PCIe card to current Mac Pro's. OWC certainly said it won't be possible but others are saying it might be. Kinda sucks don't it?
Apple were just awarded a patent for a multi connection plug that supports USB3 and TB at the same time but for Phase One it depends if the USB3 plug has room for it. It probably will be that it does but just not run at TB speeds.
Who knows with Apple...They said they would never go BluRay and I don't think they will, but that is more to do with economics with iTunes downloads.
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there were no adapters available yet, so running a second monitor for an extended desktop is not even possible.
thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport. I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.
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thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport. I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.
Yes this is definitely true. A Mini display port is physically the same as a thunderbolt port. You can then daisy chain more than one monitor from the one port. The Thunderbolt card is wired into the graphics card and the motherboard.
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I really think the market will change a lot in the next few years. TB, solid state drives... what's next to increase speed.
When can we expect TB speed wireless??? ;D
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thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport. I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.
Thanks for the clarification!
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It was my understanding that TB chains got terminated at a display. I may be wrong on this, but I think you can have multiple devices before a display, but not after.
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Currently there isn't a display with Thunderbolt so the termination is lack of the feature. I don't think there is a problem allowing a display to be part of a TB daisy chain, but they must include TB in the display, so something for future displays, not current ones. It may even be possible for a display to act as a TB hub, much like USB now.
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here's a very cool offering from blackmagic
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/ultrastudio3d/
interestingly - they also didn't include a passthrough.....
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Currently there isn't a display with Thunderbolt so the termination is lack of the feature. I don't think there is a problem allowing a display to be part of a TB daisy chain, but they must include TB in the display, so something for future displays, not current ones. It may even be possible for a display to act as a TB hub, much like USB now.
There won't be a TB display, at least there won't be a need to make one. TB can carry DisplayPort, just like it can carry USB, FW, SATA, ethernet, etc.
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OK, I went back and looked for what I had previously read. On Apple's Thunderbolt page (http://www.apple.com/thunderbolt/) they specifically state:
Thunderbolt I/O technology allows you to daisy-chain up to six new peripherals, such as the Promise Pegasus RAID* or LaCie Little Big Disk,* or five peripherals and an Apple LED Cinema Display.
They repeat this or a variation of it on their MBP page as well. But now I'm thinking that the MBP drives its built-in monitor over TB, leaving only bandwidth for one other display. Future desktop Macs will not have this limitation, and multiple TB ports would be even better!
TB actually carries 20 Gbps in each direction, on 2 separate channels. But one channel is reserved for DisplayPort and the other data.
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There won't be a TB display, at least there won't be a need to make one. TB can carry DisplayPort, just like it can carry USB, FW, SATA, ethernet, etc.
Maybe I wasn't clear. Current Displays have DisplayPort, but not Thunderbolt. Thus you can't "daisy chain" a display, it must be last in the chain.
Future displays could be TB, which of course includes DisplayPort. Whether this means they can be daisy chained (which seems possible) and whether the same bus could drive multiple displays I'm not sure, but it seems possible. I suppose it's possible that a TB equipped display could offer FW, USB, etc. all carried over the TB bus. But before that happens displays must be redesigned with thunderbolt.
If these things are possible I would suspect we will see TB displays. If not, then no need for anything other than DisplayPort.