Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: E_Edwards on March 25, 2011, 07:46:16 am
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Currently we use two Aptus 65 backs and we are extremely happy with them. So much so, that every time I try to search for something better, I end up giving up and sticking to what we have.
However, I really want to find something better, and I have a few tests lined up. I would want better resolution of small areas of detail, given a similar workable lens to subject distance, without sacrificing things like depth of focus, image circle coverage, etc.
-The Aptus II 80Mp. Don't really need the large file, but if it produces the ultimate image quality, I may well go for it, as I like Leaf, and the excellent dealer service they provide here in London. Against it is the possible lack of lens coverage (image circle), as Digitar lenses may be a bit stressed to cover the increased sensor size when using view camera movements. This is just an assumption, and I may well be wrong, something that I will test thoroughly next week to see what happens.
-The Sinar 86H multishot. This camera has got a smaller sensor than the 80 MP Leaf, so lens circle coverage may not be an issue. I like the idea of multishot for these occasions when you need the extra definition. However, multishot is a hassle for daily routine shots, so I would expect the one-shot option of the Sinar to be as good as comparable one-shot cameras. Live Preview quality is also important to me, Leaf's is pretty good, Sinar, I don't have a clue how good it is. Also, I am not sure that Sinar files can be imported into Lightroom with the Auto Import via a hot folder, so I may have to use their own software, a sacrifice I would make if quality was really better.
PhaseOne and Hasselblad, don't really know whether they can compete with the above, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
To summarise my criteria with view camera shooting:
-Substantially or noticeably better quality and detail than my current Aptus 65's given the same subject coverage
-Good lens image circle coverage with Digitar lenses (ranging from 120 to 180mm Digitars).
-Good Live Preview for critical focussing.
-Daily Usability. We go through thousands of shots. The system has to be practical and quick.
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Hi E_Edwards,
You might like to pose your question at hasselbladdigitalforum.com which is a user base for Hasselblad users only, many of them using our systems for Still Life.
Perhaps they can offer you some informed information.
With regards to our system, we do offer single and multi shot capture, for the highest in resolution available on the market.
We also have a great Live Video with the ability to focus the camera remotely using the AF drive in the lenses. This is a very powerful accurate way to control focussing on the subject. All camera controls are operable remotely as well.
The HTS tilt and shift adapter, useable with five lenses is a great asset for Still Life work. I have sent you a PM including a PDF with more information on the practical use of the HTS for your needs.
Best Regards,
David
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Thank you so much David, I'm reading your PDF at the moment. Although I shoot with Sinar P2's, and I'm not sure the HTS would be up to the heavy demands, all will be considered.
Edward
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Thank you so much David, I'm reading your PDF at the moment. Although I shoot with Sinar P2's, and I'm not sure the HTS would be up to the heavy demands, all will be considered.
Edward
Great glad you received it!
Might be worth testing the HTS to be sure.
David
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So far I am pretty sure the Sinar 54h in 16 shot is the very best.
But what about the very new Hasselblad H4d 200ms? This is a 6 shot back and should be fantastic?
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The multishot backs - even the old ones provide very crisp fine detail and lower noise. The older 9um multishot backs that can do microstep are very impressive indeed but are slow to work with and you need very consistent lighting. The shadows can be lifted a mile on the multishot files because of the lower noise. That said I just tested the Aptus-ii 12 and its impressive and the sensor while bigger isn't but approx 10% bigger in width and height so may not give coverage issues . I compared the DOF between the aptus 12 and the CFii-39MS (which I own) because it was also a concern of mine. I just did a simple series of test where I shot a ruler at an angle with a dollar bill taped to the bottom. I could see that there wasn't a huge difference in DOF between the two backs due to sensor sizes, but for very fine detail such as the print and fibre on the bills the multishot files held up better at the smallest aperture settings where diffraction effects are apparent.
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So far I am pretty sure the Sinar 54h in 16 shot is the very best.
But what about the very new Hasselblad H4d 200ms? This is a 6 shot back and should be fantastic?
Is that shipping or public demos yet? (I'm asking earnestly - I haven't heard a shipping announcement but I could have easily missed it)
David?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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Is that shipping or public demos yet? (I'm asking earnestly - I haven't heard a shipping announcement but I could have easily missed it)
David?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
As far as I know they are not yet shipping.
Henrik
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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if you are shooting with the same lens, same aperture, and same distance
different sensor size wont offer you different DOF
what you should do is use a 100mm lens (with 1.1x crop) and 110mm lens(with 1.0x crop), same aperture and same distance
The multishot backs - even the old ones provide very crisp fine detail and lower noise. The older 9um multishot backs that can do microstep are very impressive indeed but are slow to work with and you need very consistent lighting. The shadows can be lifted a mile on the multishot files because of the lower noise. That said I just tested the Aptus-ii 12 and its impressive and the sensor while bigger isn't but approx 10% bigger in width and height so may not give coverage issues . I compared the DOF between the aptus 12 and the CFii-39MS (which I own) because it was also a concern of mine. I just did a simple series of test where I shot a ruler at an angle with a dollar bill taped to the bottom. I could see that there wasn't a huge difference in DOF between the two backs due to sensor sizes, but for very fine detail such as the print and fibre on the bills the multishot files held up better at the smallest aperture settings where diffraction effects are apparent.
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if you are shooting with the same lens, same aperture, and same distance
different sensor size wont offer you different DOF
what you should do is use a 100mm lens (with 1.1x crop) and 110mm lens(with 1.0x crop), same aperture and same distance
Well there were differences in DOF with 120mm lenses on both setups, just not huge. My understanding is the magnification effects DOF and that's related to sensor size. Lot of factors involved with DOF, including print size, and assumptions about the viewers eyesight and viewing distance. I was wondering if both sensor size differences and the sensor pitch differences would affect the DOF.
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Eddie after testing and comparing the Aptus-II 12 to all available MS and scanning type products, and knowing the standard of work you produce and your workflow, I think that you are going to have a rather easy choice here.
Bare in mind that with the SensorFlex technology you can shoot square or 4:3 crops at 60MP for that extra DOF. Live View (in colour or B&W) will show you the exact actual frame so you don't have to do any guessing
On a decent tower you get a fully rendered 80MP image zoomed in at 100% in 6-7 seconds and process it in another 15-20 then move on to the next shot. That's about 3-5 times quicker than MS and the RAW file is still a third (!) of the size and still produces a larger output size...oh and the service costs on shutters and bulbs goes up 4-6 times (or more) if you chose MS
You can stay with your LR workflow or look into Capture One with it's added functionality and improved IQ
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Hi Yair,
There are many things that attract me about the Aptus 80MP for my type of work. But I have some reservations that will be confirmed or denied when I test it.
Lens coverage is something very important to me because I use movements in the view camera to squeeze every inch of area in focus possible. The old Scheimpflug principle is practised with unremitting fervour, bless the distinguished inventor of such complex theory!
Will I be able to use similar tilts and shifts as currently? Will the frame be as even as it is now? Will there be some fall-off? Soon I'll know the answer.
Using a larger sensor necessitates shooting with longer focal lenses, so things that I currently shoot with, say, a 120mm Digitar lens, I will have to shoot with maybe the 180mm lens. This has some implications as to the depth of field, lens to subject distance and so on, and I will have to find a working compromise that I can live with. But I am completely open minded, so much so that I will also test other systems regardless of my own prejudices or preferences, or regardless of the rumours or experiences that abound in the trade which I am aware of.
Having gone from an Imacon 4040 Multishot (and I used to shoot everything with four pops) to the single shot Aptus 65 was a liberating experience, and I can honestly say that these are the camera backs that I have had the most owner satisfaction ever, they are still going strong, they are still earning their money, they've never fail me after thousands of shots, so Leaf is a company I can trust.
The HTS that David has kindly suggested...I feel this is the equivalent to some front movement in a view camera. Although this may be perfectly fine for some photography, I'm old school, I've lived with front and rear movements all my working life, so I feel I couldn't possibly work without rear movements, I think it would simply be too restrictive for my kind of work.
However, it's now time to review all the up to the minute options from every brand and either upgrade or continue what what I have.
Edward
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To those who mention the 16 shot mode...thank you, but this is not practical with my workflow. I have the solid floors, the heavy studio camera stands, the consistent Broncolor lights, etc. but 16 shots (and I have done them myself, so I know the implications) are not feasible in my usual working environment. And I am hesitant that the quality was that much better or even equal to what can be obtained with one of the modern single shot backs available. The mere vibration of a passing lorry in the street would disturb the flow, having to start all over again.
Edward
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You should definitely test the Leaf Aptus-ii 12 then. I really liked it. It's close enough to what the 16 shot backs can do in a single shot. Having shot both recently, I think the MS files are cleaner in the shadows and might still have some advantages in crispness and color tonality, but its very very close. You could argue which is better, but there's no question of the convenience of being able to get the shot in a single frame.
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if you want to get different DOF on the different sensor size, but same lens and aperture
you must frame the two images in different distance, the 1.1x crop sensor at very slightly longer distance
so that the the difference pictures will in fact be framed the same (but actual distance is different)
you will not just get more shallow DOF on larger sensor with the same exact setting
if you get different DOF in the same exact setting you must try again
Well there were differences in DOF with 120mm lenses on both setups, just not huge. My understanding is the magnification effects DOF and that's related to sensor size. Lot of factors involved with DOF, including print size, and assumptions about the viewers eyesight and viewing distance. I was wondering if both sensor size differences and the sensor pitch differences would affect the DOF.
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You should definitely test the Leaf Aptus-ii 12 then. I really liked it. It's close enough to what the 16 shot backs can do in a single shot. Having shot both recently, I think the MS files are cleaner in the shadows and might still have some advantages in crispness and color tonality, but its very very close. You could argue which is better, but there's no question of the convenience of being able to get the shot in a single frame.
I also had a chance to try the Leaf 12 R
amazing back, I think as the MP is going higher, the meaning of MS backs diminishes
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I too have the Aptus 65, and also a scanning back by Better Light. When I'm working with something that requires movements or better DOF control I go to the scan back. I don't know about you, but I miss the optical functionality that I used to get working 4x5 and 8x10. I know 8x10 is likely dead for good, but the scan back is the closest thing out there to actually working in true large format. Since you have the heavy floors and gear I'd suggest trying a scan back.
A new Q: How does everyone feel about being forced to work still life with the constraints of medium format chip sizes?
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A new Q: How does everyone feel about being forced to work still life with the constraints of medium format chip sizes?
With the prices of those new 80MP backs, I just do not imagine if they would decide to go for standart large format chip size...I guess it would be like buying a house in Spain: an all life mortgage.
Canon has already a bigger sensor like that but not commercialized. http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/canon-develops-worlds-largest-cmos-sensor-shoots-60fps-video-i/
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Myko,
I tried a scanning back quite a while ago.
Things may have changed since then, but at the time I found that you needed a hell of a lot of soft light in order to make it work. Less light meant less of a scanning area. The scanning backs work, but subtle light control was practically impossible on small size set-ups like the ones I am used to. Also, I remember it took a long time to scan the area. All in all, I didn't get on with it, I didn't find it practical for a busy studio. It may work for others though. My impression was: good for copy work if you are not in a hurry.
Edward
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Hi Fred,
I used to shoot 10x8 for a number of years, then 5x4 for almost two decades. So it was strange at first to focus on a small sensor area. However, you get used to it, and with Live view, I find the accuracy of the focussing quite a bonus.
I'm no longer nostalgic for a large format focussing screen area or hanker for the good old days. The good old days are now, at present. It's never been better really. But because clients expect a fast turnaround these days, practicality is one of my main priorities. Since photography fees are now lower than they used to be, and budgets are smaller, I limit the time spent per shot, as I stubbornly refuse to lower my profits. It's a question of delivering good quality quickly enough and with no hassle...without having to mortgage your house in the process!
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I've recently tested one of the high end, 104MP scanning backs,
My feeling is that the combination of old sensor technology (some of them are no longer in production) and old software technology (no real development in the last 10-12 years) produce images that are, in general, inferior to what a good 80MP single shot back (you know which one...) with a modern software can produce, in terms of sharpness, tonality and even dynamic range.
On paper, a tri-linear, 8K, 9µ sensor (72mm long) should beat a bayer-based 5.2µ sensor, but in reality this is not happening...rather the other way around...
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Frankly, unless I am shooting fabric or really moire prone things (or any other of the stuff that really benefits from multishot) I would go for the 80MP backs. I will trade-in my 39MS the moment HB comes with their H4D80.
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I've recently tested one of the high end, 104MP scanning backs,
My feeling is that the combination of old sensor technology (some of them are no longer in production) and old software technology (no real development in the last 10-12 years) produce images that are, in general, inferior to what a good 80MP single shot back (you know which one...) with a modern software can produce, in terms of sharpness, tonality and even dynamic range.
On paper, a tri-linear, 8K, 9µ sensor (72mm long) should beat a bayer-based 5.2µ sensor, but in reality this is not happening...rather the other way around...
What exact scanning-back did you test?
Henrik
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Frankly, unless I am shooting fabric or really moire prone things (or any other of the stuff that really benefits from multishot) I would go for the 80MP backs. I will trade-in my 39MS the moment HB comes with their H4D80.
Good luck!! so you will be waiting a very long time ;-) Hasselblad had problems with H4D60 and still have a problems with lenses. They try to lunch H4D50MS (6 shot), but it will be around the end of the year. But I'm not sure that this year... Everything take them a very long time ... too much!!
Best regards,
Design Freak
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Leaf Aptus II 12 is a very nice Digital Back. I think that it will be easier to use that MS Digital Back and scan backs. Quality is very very good!!!
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Good luck!! so you will be waiting a very long time ;-) Hasselblad had problems with H4D60 and still have a problems with lenses. They try to lunch H4D50MS (6 shot), but it will be around the end of the year. But I'm not sure that this year... Everything take them a very long time ... too much!!
Best regards,
Design Freak
I know, I am not in a hurry. Dalsa needs to fulfill the P1/Leaf orders before they can start delivering to HB (which effectively comes down to an exclusivity for a period). I reckon HB will get the 80MP to work sooner than the 60. The experience on how to treat the Dalsa sensors is now available which was not there when they started the 60.
Anyway, you are right. The last couple of years they are not fast to market but having been around with this for a while this has been the case for every MF manufacturer at certain points in time . The world doesn't come to an end if I don't have my 80 soon. I can live without for a while and use MS when I need to.
BTW, I have been told some 200MS backs are now being tested in the field. In that case time to market from first introduction is not too bad, also considering that current owners of the 50MS can have it upgraded to the 2000MP version (for free?) is nice.
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Well, once I have heard similar information. . While we waited for the H3DII 60. Later Hasselblad repeatedly put off delivery. It lasted 1.5 years from the date of purchase!!!
BTW, I have been told some 200MS backs are now being tested in the field. In that case time to market from first introduction is not too bad, also considering that current owners of the 50MS can have it upgraded to the 2000MP version (for free?) is nice.
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Yeah yeah yeah... you know we have all been there. The times we have been waiting for stuff have been numerous. Remember the wireless transfer/connection for the P30 when it was introduced(this we are still waiting for actually)? The drama we had with Leaf Capture 10? Etc.. etc.. etc.. I can tell you are pissed off about something. It is not worth it to get upset about it.
I only had to wait 1 month before I got my H4D60... I was smart enough to wait to order until I held one in my hands. I have made this my motto, I only buy stuff that I have had in my hands actually. I will only pay with virtual or monopoly money for vaporware...
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you have to go multishot, so it's sinar or Hassie. I have a Hassie single shot w/ a P2, but also work sometimes on a Sinar 54 on the P3, gotta say, the Sinar in 4 pass amazing. Also, worth the upgrade from P2-P3, I'm considering it this year, P3 is superior for MF backs for sure.
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Well guys,
I tested the Leaf Aptus II-12 today and I must say, I was impressed.
For setting up, it was just a question of swapping my Aptus 65 for the AptusII-12 and everything worked fine from the first go. In fact, for those updating from another Aptus, the transition couldn't be smoother, nothing new to learn! The lenses image circle (I tried the 120 Schneider Digitar and the 180mm Rodenstock Apo Rodagon Digital) covered the sensor well with my usual Sinar P2 camera movements, I didn't notice anything different in terms of lens coverage.
The files took a bit longer to appear in Lightroom at 100%, but that's to be expected from a 240 mb file and absolutely no problem for a still life shooter. I only tried it at the lowest ISO, because I'm not interested in higher ISO's.
I tried the on-the-fly sensor crop to 1:1, 3:4 and the elongated one (I think 16:9) and the live View automatically crops to the selected sizes. Very nice back, nice colours, like all Leafs.
Because I shot some proprietary items, I'm unable to post files, but they are similar to the one that Yair posted of the colourful still-life with fabrics, which is a good representation of what the back can do.
Edward
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SO.......... did you order one ???
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Another camera to test tomorrow. Then decisions, decisions...
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you have to go multishot, so it's sinar or Hassie. I have a Hassie single shot w/ a P2, but also work sometimes on a Sinar 54 on the P3, gotta say, the Sinar in 4 pass amazing. Also, worth the upgrade from P2-P3, I'm considering it this year, P3 is superior for MF backs for sure.
I am on my 6th Hasselblad, but I think the the Sinar 86H is the only choice for serious work for high res and reliability in heavy usage. I investigated one last year, but I wanted the whole package including the eShutters... which might be available now.
Hasselblad Live view might be adequate for you in the studio, but the Sinar daylight live view fo landscapes is a major factor for me.