Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: stamper on March 06, 2011, 06:28:15 am
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Does anyone find that they become over critical of their own work? I have been into photography for over ten years - a short time with respect to others - and I am striving to do better. One of the best bits of advice that I have read is to to be your own worst critic, which I have been practising. However recently I think I have got to the stage where I like less and less of what I am capturing. I like about 2% or 3% of my efforts. Is it possible to reverse this process and be more laid back or is this a sign of me "progressing"? :-\
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Stamper, Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I've been doing photography as an art form for 60 years and periodically I fall into the kind of funk you're describing. I think at least two things are at work when that happens: (1) I'm covering the same ground I've covered many times before, and the freshness is gone, and (2) I've seen more and more good photographs by other photographers, so I'm judging my own work against an ever rising and more extensive standard.
But comparison with the work of others isn't as powerful a turnoff as comparison with my own work. I look at my own collections and sometimes feel I'm losing it. But then I remember that those collections represent what's left after extensive culling. If I really think about it I realize the percentage of keepers hasn't actually shrunk, which is not to say that's an encouraging thought.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I get so-so keepers practically every day, but if I average one picture a year upon which I'd stake my reputation, I'm doing well. I'd call your two to three percent pretty encouraging. I'd love to see more of your kind of critical self-analysis by posters on LuLa.
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Let's face it. Most of what I shoot is so-so and in the long term, gets trashed. Some of what I shoot earns the initial "not so bad" and is kept for a while. And then there is the only occasional photo that makes me say "wow" when I see it on my screen; those are few and far between.
As I become more in tune with making photographs, the more I find that the stuff I once thought good gets trashed. I think it's growth.
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... I have got to the stage where I like less and less of what I am capturing. I like about 2% or 3% of my efforts...
No problem... As long as you keep showing us only those 2-3%.:)
The problem starts when people start asking us to find those keepers in the proverbial haystack for them.
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Does anyone find that they become over critical of their own work?
I think it's natural to look over our work, find areas for improvement, and effect change. Usually we call this refinement, or experience. And as the saying goes, good judgment is a result of experience, most of that bad..
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Thom Hogan has something interesting to say about this.
http://www.bythom.com/
The bit about what others think about your choices.
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Thom Hogan has something interesting to say about this.
http://www.bythom.com/
The bit about what others think about your choices.
The provided link is a home page... which article you are actually referring to? A specific link would be helpful.
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it is in the text just below the main picture, i think.
Frank
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it is in the text just below the main picture, i think.
Frank
You are right. Thanks!
Having read it, I can't say I agree with Tom totally (of course ;)).
While he is right saying "... it's easy to become fixated on something that speaks out to us (and maybe has a hidden story or message that others won't see or understand) and miss all the things that aren't right about an image..., it is much more likely we would pick images others wouldn't, than it is likely we would miss images others wouldn't. When you have a winner, you know it. When you have loser, you still might like it, for reasons known only to you (and maybe few). Me think.
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No problem... As long as you keep showing us only those 2-3%.:)
The problem starts when people start asking us to find those keepers in the proverbial haystack for them.
That's exactly right. Visit random Flickr photostreams and you'll quickly start to appreciate what a difference it makes when somebody else (usually the photographer) does the editing for you. There's so much photography online these days that it's impossible for us as viewers to be the editor.
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Forget ruminating self cricism. Work that sells is good. Work that doesn't sell is beside the point. No other form of criticism is needed. One's creative muse is best validated by the extent to which it successfully excites other people, for which there is no better truth-test than a credit card swipe. The transfer of excitement is art enough for me.
Yes I know those are loutish words. But I've been a lot happier since I have adopted that viewpoint, partly because it results in increased sales and more time to do photography.
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...Yes I know those are loutish words...
Yes they are. Totally. By that logic, the most valuable cultural product humanity has come up with in the past several thousand years would be... Grand Theft Auto... racking up over one billion in sales.
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By that logic, the most valuable cultural product humanity has come up with in the past several thousand years would be... Grand Theft Auto... racking up over one billion in sales.
I think GTA is as appalling as a Goya painting, and very similar in spirit. Those 1X10^9 sales suggests it has some deep resonance with the human soul. There is some terrible truth lurking there. Scary. I suspect The Future will remember it as an icon of our age.
To put my theory of criticism in sweeter terms, artistic self-flagellation is for the birds. Eschew the whole artistic anguish phase, it's something you get over anyway and might as well just skip the whole pointless exercise. Let the popularity of your art be your critical feedback engine. Concentrate on doing art that connects with your audience. This will free you to do more work and will make life more enjoyable. Unless you are masochistic and wish to project that in your art. Is that prettier?
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I like about 2% or 3% of my efforts.
When I studied photography in college, my professor was of the opinion that we should expect one good photo from a 36-exposure roll. So you're right on track. ;D
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"...Yes I know those are loutish words..."
Yes they are. Totally. By that logic, the most valuable cultural product humanity has come up with in the past several thousand years would be... Grand Theft Auto... racking up over one billion in sales.
Thanks for setting this straight, Slobodan. I was beginning to think the Way to Great Art was through Cute Kittens in Teacups, or Hard-Core Porn, both of which sell much better than anything I can produce.
Eric
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I think GTA is as appalling as a Goya painting, and very similar in spirit. Those 1X10^9 sales suggests it has some deep resonance with the human soul. There is some terrible truth lurking there. Scary. I suspect The Future will remember it as an icon of our age.
I'm sure similar lamentations were heard of Dante's Divine Comedy at the time of its release...
And I'm sure there is a special place in hell for people who compare GTA to Dante's work :P
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... There is some terrible truth lurking there. Scary...
True. Come to think of it, some of the most successful products in human history are, for instance, bubbly sugared water and gum that bubbles...go figure.
... Let the popularity of your art be your critical feedback engine. Concentrate on doing art that connects with your audience. This will free you to do more work and will make life more enjoyable. Unless you are masochistic and wish to project that in your art. Is that prettier?
That is certainly a valid choice. The problem with that approach is that every type of art (or "art") will find its buyers. "Cute kittens in teacups" do sell, probably better than landscapes. Nuclear-saturation landscapes probably sell better than moody b&w ones. But how many of those that sell better you can shoot before you puke?
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And I'm sure there is a special place in hell for people who compare GTA to Dante's work :P
It's right next to the place for self-flagellating photographers.
And Dante was an opportunistic, money-grubbing, sensationalistic hack. An altogether OK guy.
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I believe that this has slipped into cloud cuckoosville.
To make a direct link between the quality of any art and sales is so crass that I am convinced that it is being made very much tongue-in-cheek. If anything, the lowest common denominator is more at work within the 'artistic' side of life than anywhere else. Consider the written word as in popular press; blockbusters as in movies; print sales as in general wall-art outlets.
But then, I know some of this was in jest - I simply have to read again the reference to the 'appalling' Goya to be reassured.
Low print sales volumes bother me not in the least. Most of my work was on commission, anyway, and what I've done since has been for my own satisfaction. To hell with any other opinions than my own.
Frankly, to be in this business for anything other than self-satisfaction is insane.
Rob C
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Frankly, to be in this business for anything other than self-satisfaction is insane.
Amen to that, Rob!
Eric
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Forget ruminating self cricism. Work that sells is good. Work that doesn't sell is beside the point. No other form of criticism is needed. One's creative muse is best validated by the extent to which it successfully excites other people, for which there is no better truth-test than a credit card swipe. The transfer of excitement is art enough for me.
Yes I know those are loutish words. But I've been a lot happier since I have adopted that viewpoint, partly because it results in increased sales and more time to do photography.
It looks as if you are more interested in money than photography? :)
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FWIW, you would help yourself by listening to his comments. He has clearly and repeatedly demonstrated more of what it takes to be successful than anyone else you are likely to encounter.
That aside, nothing succeeds like a successful approach.
If you think you are being overly critical of your photography or anything else for that matter, either go to therapist and spend hours of self-indulgent time to explore why self-loathing is important to you, bleat on the web, or be direct and try doing things differently, such as emulating what those who have been successful have done. The willingness to try is everything, but the choice is yours. ;)
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FWIW, you would help yourself by listening to his comments. He has clearly and repeatedly demonstrated more of what it takes to be successful than anyone else you are likely to encounter.
That aside, nothing succeeds like a successful approach.
If you think you are being overly critical of your photography or anything else for that matter, either go to therapist and spend hours of self-indulgent time to explore why self-loathing is important to you, bleat on the web, or be direct and try doing things differently, such as emulating what those who have been successful have done. The willingness to try is everything, but the choice is yours. ;)
What I won't be doing is taking advice from an insulting JERK like yourself. I don't sell images or do I have any self loathing nor do I bleat. I don't need a therapist either. My original post was about my endeavours to improve. I suggest if this is the best manner in which you can answer posts then possibly a shrink can help you? ;D
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Sorry for the fuss, I opened the wrong door and didn't realize where I was.
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Sorry for the fuss, I opened the wrong door and didn't realize where I was.
I don't know why you have to apologize. You stated what you felt was right? I replied in jest. :) Unfortunately someone else jumped into your defence with remarks that weren't - imo - appropriate. >:(
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What I won't be doing is taking advice from an insulting JERK like yourself. I don't sell images or do I have any self loathing nor do I bleat. I don't need a therapist either. My original post was about my endeavours to improve. I suggest if this is the best manner in which you can answer posts then possibly a shrink can help you? ;D
You write a fine self-portrait ;)
I'm going to try again:
Here is your original quote:
Does anyone find that they become over critical of their own work? I have been into photography for over ten years - a short time with respect to others - and I am striving to do better. One of the best bits of advice that I have read is to to be your own worst critic, which I have been practising. However recently I think I have got to the stage where I like less and less of what I am capturing. I like about 2% or 3% of my efforts. Is it possible to reverse this process and be more laid back or is this a sign of me "progressing"?
Yes it is possible to reverse this process. Look at those whose work you admire and try to emulate it from a technical perspective. Abandon the "worst critic" perspective or don’t make it the first or most important thing.
If you really don’t like 97% of the work you are doing, as you stated, there is likely something beyond photography that is contributing to your perception of your work. . .
To put it in the words of a friend who is a people person, “People sometimes get themselves into a funk. They have to do something different to take them out of it.”
That and pay attention to what Bill writes.... ;)
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What I won't be doing is taking advice from an insulting JERK like yourself. I don't sell images or do I have any self loathing nor do I bleat. I don't need a therapist either. My original post was about my endeavours to improve. I suggest if this is the best manner in which you can answer posts then possibly a shrink can help you? ;D
Hey stamper! I agree, you may may not need a therapist, however, can I suggest an Anger Management Specialist? I know the ideal person, http://www.casproduction.com/siteportfolio/pamelaconnolly/. If she could help Billy, then I'm sure she'll be able to do the same for a fellow Glaswegian. ;)
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I don't think I am in need of anger management. I think my reply was justified. To state that I had self loathing was insulting. BTW I am not a fellow Glaswegian I hail from bonny Dumbarton. :)
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BTW I am not a fellow Glaswegian I hail from bonny Dumbarton. :)
Close enough when you're 8000 miles away!
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I don't think I am in need of anger management. I think my reply was justified. To state that I had self loathing was insulting. BTW I am not a fellow Glaswegian I hail from bonny Dumbarton. :)
Ooops! Sorry, stamper, I had thought you were from Glesca! (I may be mistaken with the patois - my kids laughed if I dared try to put it on - spelling it is even more demanding for me.)
Ciao -
Rob C
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Ooops! Sorry, stamper, I had thought you were from Glesca! (I may be mistaken with the patois - my kids laughed if I dared try to put it on - spelling it is even more demanding for me.)
Ciao -
Rob C
Rob, no need to apologize. Not much difference between the two, only Dumbarton is smaller. :)
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Glad to know I am not the only one who got bitten by this bug: I recently did a trip to a nearby city, a full day for myself to wander about in a very photogenic city, and plenty of time to take lots of shots; back at home, I deleted all but one of them...
However, my problem is not being over critical while editing; what worries me is when I am too critical while shooting, because then I start not shooting at all, and cannot stop thinking I am loosing many good opportunities.
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I believe that Ansel once said that if he got one really fine photograph a month, he felt he was doing well. So if you calculate the time that you feel you have left to you, shall we say ten years, then you might get another 120 really fine frames. Well, how many superb pictures do you need, for heaven's sake? I think 120 would be enough to leave to posterity. How many great photos can you call to mind (quickly, mind you, and no cheating looking in books) of Weston, or Adams, or HCB, or Brandt, or whoever - a dozen or so, perhaps. This is not something to agonise over. Most visual artists have drawers or portfolios full of stuff which did not make the grade, as well.
John
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Glad to know I am not the only one who got bitten by this bug: I recently did a trip to a nearby city, a full day for myself to wander about in a very photogenic city, and plenty of time to take lots of shots; back at home, I deleted all but one of them...
However, my problem is not being over critical while editing; what worries me is when I am too critical while shooting, because then I start not shooting at all, and cannot stop thinking I am loosing many good opportunities.
It depends on the subject type: some things happen quickly and you have to try and keep up with the pace; others are already dead and you can take your time both with shooting and considering. In the end, I think it's probably best to shoot less of the second type of thing, because it saves a lot of computer time. Unless, of course, computers are the real attraction, which I'm sure some find them to be.
I dislike computers and using them, but nowadays, what else can one do? Even family seem to depend on them rather than the telephone... my wife would never use a computer but only the 'phone because, she said, she could tell immediately from the voice if things at the other end were really okay or not; writing masks a lot.
She was seldom wrong about anything. Sure miss her advice and personality judgements. I can never make them well and waste a lot of energy on wankers who don't merit five minutes. The world is full of them; I've lost my insulation.
Rob C