Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: kaelaria on March 05, 2011, 07:12:39 pm
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So I got my belt replacement kit in today - any interest in a how-to vid for the job?
EDIT - here's the vid: http://bgpictures.com/tampa-wedding-commercial-photography-blog/hp-z3100-drive-belt-replacement-how-to-video/ (http://bgpictures.com/tampa-wedding-commercial-photography-blog/hp-z3100-drive-belt-replacement-how-to-video/)
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Yes please.
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That would be great.
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OK - I am planning the repair tomorrow afternoon and I'll make a video. I just did the kit unboxing/intro. I'm having a party tomorrow evening so it'll be a couple days before the vid is editing and up.
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I'm a guy who is all thumbs, but I can't afford to have HP replace the belt on my z3100. I was thinking of having a friend who is very organized do it with me, and the video would be wonderful. Also, I should clean/replace or whatever, the smeary ink reservoirs at the same time.
Could you list the tools you use, as well?
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I'm 1/2 way through it, it's easy, just long. It wouldn't take NEARLY as long if I wasn't doing the video HAHA! Yeah I'm going through tools and all that as well, no worries.
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You deserve huge credit for doing this video---and a medal for the patience it takes to replace this belt. I watched and HP technician replace the belt on my 44" z3100 a few weeks ago and was glad I didn't try it myself! The belt wasn't the difficult part--it was disassembling the major part of the machine and reassembling afterward that seemed daunting. It took the technician about an hour, even though he had done it several times before.
David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
David V. Ward Fine Art Photography
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Now where did I put that screw...
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Blah this kit is really pissing me off. Tonight I'm almost done and find that it does NOT include 'every tool needed to do the job right' as advertised. I'll call the company in the morning and see what they have to say. It's not a show stopper but does require the purchase of another tool.
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I got a $12 credit for the missing tool although I think it wasn't missing, they just didn't know it was needed. It's not in the kit description nor photo of the kit on the website and the first thing they said was 'huh really, I have never heard of that'. But oh well, I got through it - on to the project!
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And yet another step where they didn't supply a tool, time to call again! Oh and the service manual has multiple incorrect callouts too!
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WOW
DO NOT do business with LPS Computer!!!!
I just got hung up on after being treated like crap.
Here's the deal. They offer a kit described on the website as:
The kit has everything you need to do the job right:
1 Carriage Belt (Y-axis) Q5669-60673
(Click here for LPS belt specifications)
2 Non-evaporating synthetic oil for the rails
3 39 Piece Specialty Tool Kit
4 Media required by HP for Calibration
5 Illustrated belt replacement and plotter calibration directions (CD)
6 Service Manual with Illustrated Replacement Instructions, Parts List, Error Codes, & more (CD)
7 Toll Free Phone Support if Needed
Let's start with the obvious - it does NOT include the tools needed, plain and simple. You need, in addition to the kit provided, dedicated T8 and T10 drivers - NOT bits and a bit driver, that does not fit in two locations.
Item 5 is not there, there is no step by step at all, but that's fine I can read the service manual myself.
No one there has ever used their own kit to attempt the job, it's false advertising pure and simple. The gal I spoke with this morning was understanding and promptly credited me $12 for the missing T10 tool. Which now confirmed, was not in fact missing, it doesn't exist.
I just got off the phone with a guy, presumably the guy she went to ask about the problem this morning - who was not willing to admit fault and claimed I was 'working him trying to get compensation'! I said you credited me $12 this morning for the T10, I now want the same for the T8! He said no way, I'm not giving you money for that, I'll send you a driver! I said ok, when is it going out? He said in a couple days, he has to source one. I said ok please send me an email stating you are sending me the driver - he REFUSED - not acceptible! He admitted that his technicians had never actually used the kit, but instead uses the 'better' tools! I said you charged me $50 for a $5 tool kit and a sheet of paper, who's working who? He said 'well you also get technical support for that price. I said YOU are getting technical support from ME! I just told YOU how your kit is deficient and you admitted that what you are sending out doesn't work for this job and will have to modify it now!
He still refused to budge and I said that I have the option of filing a PayPal claim since it's falsely advertised and he got very upset. I said I did NOT want to do that since it wouldn't be fair and just wanted a fair compensation. Since they offered $12 the first time I think $12 the 2nd time is that fair compensation. He then mumbled something and hung up on me!
So now I WILL be contacting PayPal to see what they say.
All it took was them to do the right thing here and correct their mistake. They put out a product that was untested and they got burned on it. That is their fault, not mine. I paid a relatively high amount of money for the promise of having what I needed for the job and they did not deliver. When a customer is the tech support and R&D that's not right.
I'm 90% through the project, and it looks like this is the last gotcha with the kit. On to cleaning, replacement, calibration and more vid editing...100 clips and counting!! Ahhhh
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I filed a dispute, let's see what that gets me.
They also just pulled the item from the website but I have a screen shot of it already.
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This was the company response through PayPal, to the dispute asking for a $12 refund. I now will escalate it to a claim and let PayPal get my money back directly:
"The tool kit sent to the customer has a value of $12. That was refunded. He tried to bully me into a second refund for his claim of another problem with the tools. I don't respond well to bullying, whining or professional victims. He was made whole."
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Ahhh thank you PayPal (how often do you hear that? lol)! $12 credit issued! Shame on you LPS!
On to cleaning...boy what a mess! The original belt is cracked and crumbling. Ink is all over the place especially where it parks.
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Almost done, YouTube is processing the video now...
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OK it's done! Phew that was a monster to edit, it took 10x longer just because of the video lol!
http://bgpictures.com/tampa-wedding-commercial-photography-blog/hp-z3100-drive-belt-replacement-how-to-video/ (http://bgpictures.com/tampa-wedding-commercial-photography-blog/hp-z3100-drive-belt-replacement-how-to-video/)
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Thanks for the video,
It looks very intimidating.. but helps me to do it myself.
I know how much the reapair will cost me and how relatively cheap the parts are...
Having a z3100 myself for more than 3 years now I understand i have to do this also some day.
Is there any way to download the video as a quicktime or something?
cheers.
Pieter Kers
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Excellent job! It's hard to believe someone would charge over a thousand bucks for that job but they do.
Which brings up a question on a maintenance service schedude for these wide format machine. I have read nothing where it says to do certain cleaning and lubing at regular intervals.
So what is everyone doing? Printing until it makes loud noises and quits? ???
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Don't be intimidated at ALL it's NOT hard! It's a 2GB file, I'm just going to let YouTube stream it.
There are service points in the manual, but I wish they had given such things in the Owners Manual. What they want you to do is purchase a service contract.
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Regards! Can you please post a link for downloading the service manual,the link on youtube does not work,i have a 44" z3200 and am sure the same will work for the 3200. Thank You Milt:
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There is no link on YouTube. The link is in the article I posted above and it works fine.
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Many thanks for all your time and effort in putting this video together.
Well done!
David
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My thanks too. Looks like my Z3100's belt is going the same way.
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No prob :)
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Thank you for a fantastic video! You have given me the courage to try the same repair and cleanup. I think HP either blew it when they designed a belt that self destructs in 3 years, or they really don't care, but I really broke the piggy bank when I bought the printer. Now, I feel that with a friend of mine who is more organized than I am, I can really learn how to do this.
Is there any way to download and save a copy of the video?
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Let me see if I can enable the download...it's big...
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I can't, but you can do it yourself with a downloader - I use this one: http://youtubedownload.altervista.org/
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Thanks for the link. However, the downloader doesn't work with the website that has the video. I'll search for other downloaders.
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Yes, it works perfectly, I just tested it and downloaded a copy!
Make sure you follow the instructions. You paste the YouTube link in the program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U56v6y0FDh4 NOT my website.
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My error. I did put your url in the first time. I was able to download the file. Nice little program!
The file came out to 50 minutes in length and 1Gb in size. Is that correct?
Again, I want to thank you for your concern for the rest of us as shown by the meticulous and highly instructive video.
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Yes that's correct. Glad to help!
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Holy #$@*!
I just called HP and the 1st 5 parts dealers and there are no belt assemblies in stock at those places, and I was told at several that the belt is now considered obsolete!
I have friends doing a search, but is it possible that my $4000-plus printer is garbage?
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Well, after trying several more parts suppliers I finally tried LPS, reluctantly, after the reported difficulty you had with their responsiveness re the toolkit. Fortunately the had the belt in stock.
My wife said to order two of them, as I intend to keep this printer until ink and heads are no longer available. However, my impression is that it is not wear that disintegrates the belt, but time and exposure to air, etc, so I only ordered one.
Do you think if the belt were kept in its package it would be like new in 3 or so years when I would probably have to replace the replacement belt?
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I have no idea what most deteriorated the belt, I suspect a combination of heat, actuations and wear not time. My old belt was cracked and worn down - the rubber just started coming apart everywhere evenly especially on the toothed track through the motor. The LPS belt actually looks a lot better than OEM to me, so we'll see how it lasts.
This OEM belt was on the first page of google when I just searched: http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=Q5669-60673
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Would the Z3200 belt be the same?
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Yes
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I replaced the belt on my Z3100 last month with an original HP spare part.
From a chinese reseller I got another kit as a spare part. The belt has a different structure inside and you get als a small reel for replacement.
http://www.donparts.com/products/91-DJ-Z3100-Z3200/
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That difference is the lack of ribbing I detail in the video and a new smooth instead of grooved pulley. I would not suggest going to that design. The ribbing keeps it on track during high speed moves.
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Hello... Very glad someone is doing a video on this. I had my "belt shock" last September (2010) and took some days to recover from the shock of learning how much HP wanted to charge to come do it. I posted on this forum but got very few answers and pretty much none from anyone who had done it themselves. Ended up finding LPS, who encouraged me to do it myself; said they had a kit... After some two weeks of looking around, i decided to move forward with it. Being very handy with tools, I bought the kit from LPS and got it done in a total of about 6 hours over 3 days. Knowing what I did, I would suggest to anyone that it is not necessary to buy "the kit", only the belt. The other necessities such as the socket wrench for the T-15 (& one other size) can be bought from the local Home Depot, and the HP instructions can be had from the HP site. Of course, LPS did not mention that, but now I know...
I think anyone who is generally handy and PATIENT can do this. It can get a bit scary when one looks at what you have to remove, but it can be done if one follows the instructions. Once done, the next thing is to calibrate / reset as per the instructions; need only glossy paper. I had no trouble with LPS, and the whole thing cost me about $130 + time. Good to see others doing this themselves, as HP is outrageously out of line with their service price !!
This HP design leaves a lot to be criticized. Here is a belt that should last at least 10 YEARS. After all, engine belts in cars can take such stress and still go years... One should not have to take apart half a printer to change a belt. The actual changing of the belt takes just minutes; it is the getting to the belt that consumes so many hours.
The 3100 is an excellent printer, able to push out fine prints; however, I will have to consider other brands next time I buy a printer. Hencha
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The difference between the printer and a car is a car doesn't have 3/4" pullies. But I agree there should be a better design. I detailed everything about the kit and tools in the article and video.
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hi... Yes, you are correct. I wasn't making a direct comparison of belts from a mechanical point of view. I was leaning more toward a comparison of materials used to manufacture these belts, figuring that since engine belts survive years through heat, cold and speed, HP should be able to find longer lasting materials from which to make these belts... At the very least, HP should NOT charge exorbitant $ to change a belt.
Good idea, your video ! Hencha
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My point is, it's the extremely tight bends the belt has to make that is wearing it out. A car belt rides on a smooth surface and has nice easy radiuses (is that a word?) - they wear out completely differently. Put a car belt on small diameters and use gear teeth - they would be toast. lol
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Just ordered my belt from lps to send to New Zealand, international delivery costing just as much as the belt - ouch! Still, it'll be way cheaper than trying to source from NZ. I quickly watched the video yesterday - very informative and well done. Just a matter of getting the right tools, preparing well and following the steps along with the video and manual.
Neal
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I've been having trouble locating non-evaporating synthetic oil that would be comparable to what HP uses. Would something like synthetic valve oil for trumpets, or slide oil for trombones, be about the right weight? Or do you have a suggestion of where to get the oil? I've googled it and the closest I've found is the musical instrument oil.
Also, do you know if the belt you bought was officially an HP belt or a 3rd party copy?
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The Nye Hobbyist Lubricant Kit contains a thin oil that meets 99% of the HP recommended oil for the head carriage rod, a Nye oil in origin as well. Nye synthetic oil PP269, compare the spec
sheet with the NYE 179 that is used by HP. 2 fl ozs and the price competitive.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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The Nye Hobbyist Lubricant Kit contains a thin oil that meets 99% of the HP recommended oil for the head carriage rod, a Nye oil in origin as well. Nye synthetic oil PP269, compare the spec
sheet with the NYE 179 that is used by HP. 2 fl ozs and the price competitive.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Thank you, Ernst.
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Yes I have used many different RC car oils that are just like this stuff - it's been years but I know this isn't anything special. No I didn't source it specifically since I already have it. The LPS belt is 3rd party and I am impressed with it at least by look and feel compared tot he used OEM.
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As someone who had a belt changed on a 44" Z3100 (the last gasp for my now expired service contract), I have no problems with the belt itself. It would be nice if it lasted longer, but given the stresses it is put through, I am OK with the service life. What I find ridiculous, though, is how the change and access were engineered. I doubt that they could have made it less accessible, given where it is positioned in the printer, if they tried. Since almost the whole thing is visible before doing any disassembly, the fact that you are unable to release tension and pop it on from the front without a total breakdown of the printer is just a simple engineering failure. Obviously, you would need to remove a few parts, but it shouldn't need to be broken down to a bare chassis first. I would say that this must not have been on the engineer's radar screen, but know that the belt replacement issue has been associated with HP wide format printers for at least a decade. They obviously saw it coming and, for whatever reason, paid no heed to efficiency in designing the belt replacement requirements.
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Yeah it sure would be nice. The entire reason for the teardown is because of how the belt interfaces with the carraige bottom.
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'Nother question. I finally have all the tools and assorted stuff so that I can begin the job on my Z3100 belt. I looked through my paper supply, and the only non-matte paper I have available is Epson Premium Luster, which I use for most of my prints. Would this be OK to use for the tests and alignments I need to do after reassembling the printer? Or does it have to be something by HP, and glossy?
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The test is just a simple diagnostics thing. It doesn't have to be hp paper you just have to load it as such.
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I did most of the disassembly slowly and with loads of ziplock bags nicely labeled, and I did not anticipate much of a problem. But just before sliding the carriage assembly out I had to remove the two T8 screws to release the Media Attachment Bracket. Those screws were so solidly in that I couldn't turn them, and actually damaged the Torx driver tip, and possibly the heads of the screws as well.
Not wanting to make them worse, I tried an alternative. I saw that the Media Attachment Bracket was attached to what looked like a spindle of sorts, and I figured that if I could get the spindle out with the side panel I'd probably be OK. It worked the way I thought, and I can now get the carriage assembly out.
What I need to know is: what is the "spindle" (full length of the printer) and did I create a further problem by having it slide out? Do I need to go through extra steps to reinstall it, or do I just try to fit it back? It seems to have grooves for special purposes running lengthwise and I'm not sure what it does. What is the spindle called? That way I can look up the steps to reinstall it.
Damn!
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To anyone else and for future reference - hold your horses when you hit a problem step instead of going another direction.
That shaft raises the pinchwheel assembly and I don't think it can be reinserted with the assembly installed. Removal of the assembly an installation is in itself a major PITA that I watched HP tech do three times on my printer trying to develop parts and procedures. It also requires a special HP tool to install the springs.
To remove stubborn screws you #1 use the exact size driver, with a non-ballhead tip. Hitting the driver in the screw with a hammer firmly and using a bit of heat on the screw heads is also helpful. The screws often have loctite applied and heat is needed to break the bond. Mine were certainly tight but my driver fit firmly and they snapped open without jumping the bit.
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Another short gap solution to help prevent all the spots of rubber specs falling on your prints until you can get the belt replaced. On the rear rollers assembly, where the paper sits under, I attached some sticky backed paper strips about 1 inch thick. This stops the spots falling thru the plastic gaps onto the paper, helping reduce the voids when printed. It's amazing how many particles I have sitting on it even after a week. I'm still waiting for my belt to arrive from the US. Doesn't seem to affect performance.
Neal
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That shaft raises the pinchwheel assembly and I don't think it can be reinserted with the assembly installed. Removal of the assembly an installation is in itself a major PITA that I watched HP tech do three times on my printer trying to develop parts and procedures. It also requires a special HP tool to install the springs.
To remove stubborn screws you #1 use the exact size driver, with a non-ballhead tip. Hitting the driver in the screw with a hammer firmly and using a bit of heat on the screw heads is also helpful. The screws often have loctite applied and heat is needed to break the bond. Mine were certainly tight but my driver fit firmly and they snapped open without jumping the bit.
Right now I will change the belt and clean all of the parts that need it, while I think about what I should do. Also, if many of the screws had loctite applied, should I use loctite on reinstalling? Also, I did use a T8 driver on those screws. A t10 would not fit. The driver was a garden variety Craftsman T8; how can I tell if it has a non-ballhead tip?
I am also hoping that since that shaft I removed is asymmetrical in profile, and that it is still solidly connected to the media lever gizmo, that if I align it carefully with the piece that it passes through, that it will be able to function as before. Or am I asking for even more trouble?
I hate to keep bothering you for more information after the work you put in, so generously, on the video.
I just feel completely stymied at this point.
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I only saw loctite on a couple screws and it was a trace amount. I didn't mean that many of the Z3100 screws had it, I mean many times when they are stuck like that it's from loctite. No I would not apply any.
I can't say for certain what you need to do, I have never removed the shaft - I'm not even sure how it's supposed to come out or what it looks like, there's nothing in the service manual that shows it.
A regular tip is flat and will stick in the screw straight. A ballhead is angled and you can wiggle it a bit.
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Well, I got the belt changed. The entire insides of the printer looked as if it were covered by dead ants!
Much to my surprise, when I turned the media lever bracket to the position it was when I removed the side panel and the mysterious shaft that came out, I was able to thread the shaft through all of its brackets with no problem. It seems also that the only function it serves is to rotate with the media-release lever. Its irregular profile in turn activates those brackets, which lift the roller assemblies to free the paper, and then to lower them again. My guess (and hope) is that I have not disturbed the alignment or function of the pizza wheels and pinch rollers. I'll find out soon enough, though.
One other question: It never occurred for me to check on how close to metal-to-metal contact the belt tensioner was before I loosened and removed its screw, so I don't know how tight to make it. Right now it's about 3/16 from the side panel, and the belt seems more than tight enough. I'll probably tighten it down a bit more to account for stretching of the belt in case it has a "break-in" period, but it seems to do the job of moving the carriage easily (by hand, at this point, of course.)
A further question: On tightening the T-10 screw recessed behind the circuit board in order to limit travel of the carriage assembly, I did not find any increase of resistance. I became worried that It might just keep turning until it popped out the other end (I've done lots of things like that in my clumsy history), so I just turned it enough to stop the carriage, and then added a couple of turns. Should it be turned until it stops?
Thanks again, and this morning I'm more hopeful that the printer will work.
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Congrats on the shaft going back in - hopefully like you said it's just a cam and nothing else is needed.
You tighten the bracket ALL the way. The springs are the actual tensioner.
The screw to release the carriage assembly is ONLY for release. You do not do anything with it to park it. If I didn't mention it and/or it's not in the manual instructions, don't do it. Trying to tighten it does nothing, it just spins.
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Well, I got the printer reassembled. When I turned it on I got Error 21:13, which translates to Service Station, HP Personnel Assistance Required. Is this because I screwed something else up, or is it just because I need to do all of the tests and calibrations? As far as I know, the only thing I did to the service station was wipe off the inky crud from the tops of the sponges and the plastic frames as well as wiping a very inky top to a narrrow sponge just to the left of the service station.
I am going to enter the service menu and try all the tests for the parts I removed and replaced. If you see heavy smoke from the East Coast I'm in NYC. Check for Strontium 90, etc.
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That means something is obstructing the movement. Most likely you didn't reassemble things correctly, or something got moved when you tried cleaning it. You'll just have to open it up and go over everything. You should have no errors when powering up.
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Well, at least I know how to get the stuff apart now. I may have been to vigorous in trying to clean the service station. On the other hand, I hope it had nothing to do with that shaft that I pulled out. Well, tomorrow will be a fascinating day!
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Well, I took it apart again and redid everything including taking out that shaft. I also played with the service station to see if anything that I could see looked out of place because of my enthusiastic cleaning. I put the printer back together (I'm getting faster with this!) and still got the Error 21:13, and in scrolling down on the front LED, in some of the cryptic terms I found "jam" mentioned.
There is also a black plastic cover that emerges and sits over the sponges. It was only partially visible, but thickly coated with black ink. When I turned the printer on again, it extended fully to cover the sponges, and while the printer tried to initialize, the service station (or part of it) moved toward the back of the printer and back, but the sponges never got exposed, and the Error 21:13 popped up again.
Wanna buy a fixer-upper, cheap?
The saddest thing is that I used the printer to make between 4 and 10 prints a week, if that. and it was certainly not from heavy use that the belt self destructed. And with so many of the LuLa people reporting crumbled belts, all at about 3 years of use, whether heavy or light, it seems to me that something is amiss.
The printer seems built to be a workhorse, and I don't think HP purposely put a belt in that is 1) so likely to die early, and 2) requires such amount of work to replace if they knew it would go in 3 years. I think either they got a belt made of materials not meant for the stresses, or their printer design leaves something to be desired.
I tried fixing it myself because I could not see spending the $1000 - $1200 that people report being charged to do the job, and if it were a car instead of a printer I would hope the company would do the repairs as part of a recall, or at least an acknowledgment that the part or design was faulty.
In all seriousness, I'm stymied at this point. I don't really know what to do.
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I'm sure that HP would argue that the belt replacement is not unlike the timing belt of your car, and that it should be replaced on your nickel at 100,000 miles. Unfortunately, this timing belt requires pulling the engine and transmission, instead of just removing the timing belt cover.
For the service station, the sponges are exposed at the beginning of the initialization process, then they retract to the back and the black hinged lid comes out. Does the lid still depress in the front and not bind (it hinges at the rear)? I'm not sure how one would confirm the proper working of other parts of the service station, as they are all servo operated.
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I'm sorry you are having difficulty but please don't try and blame HP for your lack of service skill. If you are near Tampa I'll gladly come over and fix it for you.
To better clean the cover surface, turn it on and start a printhead replacement sequence, and turn it off while it's moved over. Then take off the right side and you'll see everything better.
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I'm sorry you are having difficulty but please don't try and blame HP for your lack of service skill. If you are near Tampa I'll gladly come over and fix it for you.
To better clean the cover surface, turn it on and start a printhead replacement sequence, and turn it off while it's moved over. Then take off the right side and you'll see everything better.
I'm not blaming HP for my lack of skill--I take full responsibility for that. I'm not flaming HP either. I just think that the belt seems to have had an unanticipated number of early failures. I'd take you up on the offer to fix my printer, but NYC is not really that close to Tampa.
I am going to talk to the guy that services my friend's printers for her business and see if he thinks the shaft that I removed and replaced might have something to do with the malfunctioning service center unit, and if there are any things I need to know to fix it.
Another option would be to remove the service station, do a good cleaning of everything in and around it, and see if there is anything making it bind. And finally, I might bite the bullet and call in the pros and pay the price.
I wish I could do a printhead replace sequence...I used to do that to clean the plastic top on the service station. The problem is that the printer can't get that far in the boot-up process, and stops with the Error 21:13 service station problem.
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Well, I really did myself in. I called a local printer service that does HP Z's. As soon as he found out that I had worked on the printer myself he stated that he would not come to look at it or try to fix it, and that that is policy among HP people.
By the way, in messing with the printer I discovered what the T-10 screw accessible through the circuit board on the back of the right side does. I had thought it locked the carriage assembly in position over the service station by moving some sort of set screw. It actually slides the assembly with the sponges on the inside of the service station toward the front or back of the printer until the carriage assembly is either blocked or clear of tabs on the movable part of the service station.
When I turn the printer on, I watch the carriage assembly move to the left, and the inner assembly of the service station moves front and back, then seems to get stuck. That results in the service station error, 21:13. To my mind, there are the following 4 possibilities leading to my problem.
1) When in great stupidity I removed the left side plate replete with the cam-shaped shaft that came with it, something that functions with the service station got thrown off. Has anybody here had enough experience with the printer guts to venture a guess? So far it seems as if that shaft simply raises and lowers the pinch roller assemblies when the media release lever is raised or lowered, and that it does not have anything to do with the service station.
2) When I cleaned ink off the service station sponges and plastic parts, I moved something out of line.
3) Neither 1) nor 2) caused the problem, and the service station just decided to go belly up coincidentally. Possible, but probably not very likely, I guess.
If there is somebody from HP hanging out here, I would really like a description of what the shaft that came out with the left side plate does, and if anything needs to be reconnected with it after it slides back through its several brackets when the side plate is reinstalled.
My options are:
1) Try to find a repair person who knows the Z3100 who is willing to give it a try, even if he/she is not from HP.
2) Order a replacement for the service station and reinstall it. (It is easy to get to and remove.)
3) Junk the printer, or try to sell it as a "handyman's special."
I am going to start a separate thread specifically asking about the shaft that I removed.
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I wish I was close, I'm sure I could fix it :(
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I wish I was close, I'm sure I could fix it :(
I appreciate that. I'm going to look around for some independent repair person who is familiar with the Z's who would be willing to work with it. I also found a website that sells HP parts that lists a service manual, shown in a looseleaf-like binding for $350, and I wonder if it would have more detail as well as reference to the part that I removed. I can't believe it is neither referred to nor even mentioned in the manual that we have.
To make matters even worse, the local HP guy I spoke to said he would have replaced the belt for $500, which I would have been glad to pay. And yes, he said the belt has been a major problem.
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I just picked up a used 24" Z3100 to go with my 44" version. The 24" was barely used by the previous owner, and still has most of the half size starter ink carts in it, but nevertheless, the belt is in need of replacing.
I'm debating between buying a OEM belt or one of the aftermarket ones. I have found genuine HP belts for about $40, which is $10 cheaper than the LPS belt (which claims to be polyurethane and Kevlar) or another brand (that claims to be polyurethane and Vectra).
Normally, I would think that the HP belt would be the obvious choice, but I'm not sure this time, given their track record. Does the replacement belt seem appreciably different/better to those of you who have bought one and seen both?
I had my belt replaced on service contract for the 44", so I've only see OEM belts.
Thanks,
Ron
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There is no way for me to tell with the LPS belt how long it will last. However, I do know that my OEM belt started to self destruct long before 3 years of very light use. I would find the occasional black speck on a print and thought it was dried ink. This kept increasing over many months. When I finally opened the printer up, there were scads of fibers and blobs from the belt. Unless HP has redesigned the belt, I would (and did) go with a 3rd party belt. (Unfortunately I still have no printer.)
I wonder if the people with the Z3200 have any better use of the belts>
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Yeah, I wasn't expecting a track record of service life already, but wondering if, from appearance, one seemed more robust. The LPS website mentions theirs being polyurethane and cheap imports being neoprene. From the look of it, my HP belts aren't very sheeny and look like high density neoprene vs. polyurethane, that usually is more shiny and waxy. I don't think HP actually states the exact material, though. If the new belts seem less porous and more of a shiny rubber, I'd be more inclined to try on in lieu of an OEM belt.
Thanks,
Ron
PS: Crossing my fingers for you, Walter. I would bet you are at wit's end with your printer situation.
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There is a stark difference in my old HP belt and the new LPS - however I don't know how much of that has to do with age and wear, I do not have a new HP belt to compare - and I do not suggest doing business with LPS.
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The saddest thing is that I used the printer to make between 4 and 10 prints a week, if that. and it was certainly not from heavy use that the belt self destructed. And with so many of the LuLa people reporting crumbled belts, all at about 3 years of use, whether heavy or light, it seems to me that something is amiss.
The printer seems built to be a workhorse, and I don't think HP purposely put a belt in that is 1) so likely to die early, and 2) requires such amount of work to replace if they knew it would go in 3 years. I think either they got a belt made of materials not meant for the stresses, or their printer design leaves something to be desired.
That's why I'm holding off on replacing mine for as long as possible. Maybe HP will realize they need to make a decent belt. This isn't analogous to a timing belt in car at all. Timing belt replacement at 100,000 miles on a car. So if I don't drive my car much I can go 10-20 years without a timing belt change. As your case illustrates, apparently folks who barely use their printers are having belt deterioration regardless of use or "mileage." And it's hard to believe that HP made a printer belt more difficult to change than a timing belt on a car, but they appear to have accomplished that feat.
That said, it's a great printer, but clearly the belt materials aren't up to snuff and if this is a part that needs regular replacement, one shouldn't have to take the entire printer apart to replace it. Can you imagine if you had to disassemble your car to replace a belt? Or your dryer? So, there is room for improvement. Hopefully this will be addressed by HP at some point. As much as I like my z3100, I could not exclusively recommend the z printers due to the belt problems / defects that all users appear to be having. I would advise a new buyer to give the Canon's a serious look and see if they are having to replace belts on those printers regardless of use and weigh that info. into their decision.
Man, I hope the replacement belts aren't as crappy as the original belts. Time will tell.
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You guys all seem to miss the point the the belt (and many other parts) have a fixed scheduled replacement detailed in the manual. I don't see the point bitching about it whatsoever. Moving parts wear out. Can it be improved? Sure. Is it faulty? Not IMO. This also isn't a typical consumer product, I don't see putting any kind of 'blame' on HP for the design requiring somewhat extensive procedures for certain part replacements. What do you expect, every part to be like changing an ink cartridge? I really don't follow some of the logic here whatsoever.
Whats next you want to complain that Canon puts out defective cameras because a shutter fails at 90k actuations and requires it to be torn down for you to replace it? Seriously people.
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Moving parts wear out.
Whats next you want to complain that Canon puts out defective cameras because a shutter fails at 90k actuations and requires it to be torn down for you to replace it?
If the shutter failed at 3 years after only, say 5k or 10k or 20k actuations, yes, I would see cause for complaint.
I think we all understand moving parts wear out. What is bizarre with the z3100 / z3200 printer belts is that apparently even people who don't use their printer much are experiencing belt failure at the same rate as heavy users. So apparently even unmoving belts wear out and I think that is why the quality of the manufacture of the belt, materials, etc. is certainly questionable and the questions are legitimate. I'm curious how a non-HP belt performs, and as time goes on I guess we will see.
Thanks for posting the video, BTW. Please don't take it down as I'm sure I will be needing it!
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It's easy to say 'oh I barely used it' - but without the printout showing the actual actuations - I don't put any faith in anyone saying it just 'wore out from sitting'.
I've only made a couple prints since the change, here's my current print out - let's see everyone else's so we can gather actual data and not go off guesses and BS.
My belt went around 44k actuations.
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It's easy to say 'oh I barely used it' - but without the printout showing the actual actuations - I don't put any faith in anyone saying it just 'wore out from sitting'.
I've only made a couple prints since the change, here's my current print out - let's see everyone else's so we can gather actual data and not go off guesses and BS.
My belt went around 44k actuations.
Excellent. Maybe walter.sk can check his numbers and add to the thread. Might could eliminate simple decomposition due to time from why the belts don't last. My workstation is off right now, but I'll check mine. How many actuations does the HP manual say the belt should perform with no flakes coming off the belt ruining prints?
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Walter can't contribute, he can't print.
The manual says it should be 6 MILLION cycles or 5 years before it needs service. That seems insanely high to me and I question it's reality.
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The manual says it should be 6 MILLION cycles or 5 years before it needs service. That seems insanely high to me and I question it's reality.
Or maybe that supports the theory that the belts are defective and aren't lasting anywhere near as long as they should. Not even as long as what the manual says they should. The defective belts seem so widespread that maybe the problem should be a recall.
How did you view the number of actuations? I don't see anywhere in the HP Utility or front panel. My z3100 is connected via USB.
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I'll give you that it's possible - but I just think we would have heard more about it by now.
You get to it via the front panel - menu, internal prints, service information prints, print useage information
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Thanks. Here is what mine says:
Total Printed media: 513.55 sq. mtr. / 5527.8 sq. ft.
Belt usage (# of cycles): 210060
I've been printing with mine for almost 4 years. Belt has been flaking for maybe 1 yr., noticed some threads hanging off, but I've just dealt with it. Snipped 'em off. Haven't had much ruined by it.
But, if the HP manual says it should last 6 million cycles or 5 yrs without servicing, well, it should. To use the Canon or timing belt analogies again: If Canon put out a camera and said the shutter should last 90k actuations and it only lasted 60k, there would be a recall. If Lexus put out a car and said the timing belt was good for 5 years or 100k miles, but they were failing after 3 years, 50k miles, there would be a recall (and/or a huge lawsuit).
Would like it if someone from HP could chime in and let us know why the belts apparently aren't making it to 6 million cycles or 5 years, although it appears mine may actually make it to 5. Clearly a lot of others aren't.
Hope some others put up those Printer Usage numbers. Maybe a pattern begins to emerge. Maybe even a pattern around date of manufacture, etc. Maybe there is a batch of particularly crappy belts.
EDIT: You sure the manual says 6 MILLION cycles and not maybe 600,000?
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Download it for yourself and look, the link is in my article. Yes 6M. Can you post a pic of your printout just so everything is on a level playing field for data?
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My DOM is 7/07
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The pic is attached. 210060 cycles. Coming up on 4 years of use. Looks like mine has outlasted many others, albeit not without flaking.
With manual saying it should go 6 million cycles / 5 years with no service required, the HP disintegrating belt issue really looks like it should be a recall issue to me now.
EDIT: My Date of Manufacture is Dec. 08, 2006. I purchased my z3100 from Newegg in March or April 2007.
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Any bright ideas on getting HP to look/comment? lol
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I would like to see more Print Usage printouts. Still curious what the variables could be and if there is a pattern. Or maybe a new thread should be started for that. Your belt failed at around 44,000 cycles?
Has anyone quoted the manual ( 6 million cycles - 5 years ) to HP when reporting a defective / failing belt? If so, what was their response?
Get enough Print Usage printouts here and I would think HP would take note. If you read my history you will see I'm definitely not someone who is down on HP and the z3100 is the best printer ever to come along. But if the belts aren't lasting as long as they should, HP should make good. They didn't hand these printers out for free. Or the thousands of dollars of ink and paper we've used / continue to use. Maybe a lot of folks are like me and never noticed the manual info. about 6 million cycles - 5 years before service should be needed.
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If Canon put out a camera and said the shutter should last 90k actuations and it only lasted 60k, there would be a recall.
Funny you should mention that. I'm a died-in-the-wool Canon user. However, when I had 64k activations on the shutter on my 1DMkii, just after the warranty ran out, one of the shutter blades destroyed itself. The camera was advertised as good for 200k activations, and I had to beg Canon to replace it without the $800 charge they wanted me to pay. I went home happy with a new shutterbox, and roughly 60k activations later the same thing happened. This time Canon fixed it for the service fee of some $350. I've been using the camera since (it is now 6 yrs old) but I fully expect the shutter to go soon. And quite a number of 1DMkii's I have seen for sale say "with a new shutter!" I don't want to be seen as flaming Canon here, as they did make good on the 2nd and 3rd shutter, but for a $4500 professional camera that got less use than many, there seemed to be a problem.
My Z3100 is just short of 3 years of age. I do little printing compared with pro use; I have gone through the set of 1/2 size inks, bought a set of full sized inks, and had to replace about 6 of those. Not a heck of a lot of printing.
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That's about where I am Walter - in to my first full sets of ink, 2nd on a couple.
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That's about where I am Walter - in to my first full sets of ink, 2nd on a couple.
I just checked the label on the back of my printer. It was manufactured January, '07. I bought it in November, '07, so it has been in my possession about 3 years and 4 months, and its total age is 4 1/4 years.
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My 24" Z3100 is almost 4 years old and I have 574,216 belt cycles. The belt seems to be in good condition for the most part, however I am seeing some fraying in 2 places on the edge, and there is a 6 inch crack in the middle of the belt on the far left side. If I rub my finger on the belt, a few pieces of rubber will come off the edge. Occasionally, I'll get a speck of rubber on a print, but this doesn't happen too often. Before each print session, I'll examine the belt and see if any rubber comes off, then use a blower to make sure there isn't dust or rubber particles floating around inside the machine. Eventually of course the belt will have to be replaced, but I just bought a 5th year service contract, so I'm covered. I recently spoke to a friend who has a 44" Z3100, and he said that his belt went, but I don't know how many cycles he had on his.
-John
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It was maybe 20 prints from where I noticed the flakes like that to - it's snowing!
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Yes, you are living on borrowed time. I'd go ahead and have them replace it now before you end up in a mess.
Ask them to check out your "spitoon" waste tank, and the cap station while they are at it. They replaced all that with mine under warranty when they tore it apart to replace the belt. Then you'd be good to go for several more years most likely.
john
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Just did a printout - 696607 cycles, with pieces coming off, 4year old Z3100. I now have a replacement belt from LPS, I'll likely have a crack at replacing it over Easter or when orders slow down. I have an old Epson 4000, barely used now but no evidence at all of belt deterioration.
For all the hassles with the belt, I still regard the Z3100 as an excellent machine. Not having the clogging issues I have with the Epson 4000 and other related Epson printers I've read about, combined with print quality, I'd definitely look at Hp printers in the future.
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Can everyone that does a print out please post a pic of it?
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Hope springs eternal!
After a call to HP's tech support, I described the shaft that I should not have pulled out when replacing the belt, and was told that it really does nothing than lift the pinch rollers when the media lever is raised. Whew!
The jamming in the Service Station was either caused by my bending or breaking a part internally to it, or it just coincidentally died on its own. The HP tech thought that replacing the whole Service Station assembly would fix my printer.
I just ordered a Service Station, and will report back what happens. I've got my fingers crossed...
To Kaelaria and others who replaced the belt, would one of you list the tests and calibrations you performed, and in what order? I looked again and again at the matrix in the service manual and am confused about this.
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Page 8-5 follow the carriage assembly order.
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Brian that is a fantastic video and your production method was very clear to understand.
The world would be a better place if there were more people like you out there.
If mined needs it again in 3 more years I'll do it.
john
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Thanks :)
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I think we can lay the usage only argument to rest.
My recently purchased second Z3100 has only had 143 ml. total ink usage. It was literally used by a little old lady that only printed on Sunday. The printer was manufactured in August of 2007.
The belt is shot. I think time is every bit as big an issue with these belts as duty cycles.
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I would certainly agree, just based on my low usage compared to the others here alone!
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Just replaced the Service Station, which worked. Here is the readout from my printer, which is still having severe problems (see link, below.)
Total Printer Media: 113.02 m2 / 1216.5 ft2
Belt Usage (# of cycles): 128407
Total Ink Usage: 2120cc.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53177.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53177.0)
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You guys scared me enough to check the belt on my 24". It gets very light use, the only way I could justify it was that 1/2 price sale HP Canada had a few years ago. The belt looks fine assuming that the cogs don't go all the way around. They don't do they ? ???
Thanks
Jim
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What, your cogs fell off? Usually they leave lengthwise grooves when they fall off. See any?
Actually, that is how they are designed. If you don't see any fraying or find any little black specs under it, you are fine, although light use didn't stop the used printer I recently bought from having the same issues. Is is time and distance related degradation.
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Thanks Ron. I saw the lengthwise grooves on the top, kinda thought that was the design. No obvious fraying and maybe a few specs so for now I'll just keep my fingers crossed. Wonder if its more a enviormental thing, heat/ humidty. I live in a fairly benign climate.
Jim
What, your cogs fell off? Usually they leave lengthwise grooves when they fall off. See any?
Actually, that is how they are designed. If you don't see any fraying or find any little black specs under it, you are fine, although light use didn't stop the used printer I recently bought from having the same issues. Is is time and distance related degradation.
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Entirely possible that there is an environmental component. The active volcano in my backyard spews a lot of gasses, so along with the high humidity, I probably have more environmental factors than most places. I know our vog degrades OBAs faster than average, so neoprene may be the same story. Just take a closer look at your belt at the first sign of uninked specks on your prints, as that is the first sign of belt failure.
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It may be that some component of ink that evaporate inside housing react with the belt and destroy material from which the belt is made. As printer is doing slef test and cleaning cycles there is alway some ink vapour inside the box. It is clear that after some time belt starts to dissintegrate regerdless of how much someone print.
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Well - interesting that I also started to get some specks on my prints this week.
I have 372097 belt usage cycles,
printed 607,62 sq meters or 6540,4 sq ft with total number of 2151 prints
and approx 5600 ml of ink.
When I open front cover belt looks good but behind him on the metal plate there was a lot of rubber specks.
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I decide to clean this, as it is obvious that they fall to paper from this place. When I close the front lid printer made self checking by driving the heads all the way to the left, at that moment I switched printer off, open the lid again and have completly different picture of belt. It does not looks very nice like in the previous post.
After some thinking what to do I hook it with my fingertip, stretch it a little bit and releise it, I did it several times - now I had specks all over the metal plate, and different strucutre of the belt.
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I hope that that I removed all material that had intention to fall from the belt in near future. Now it is time to clean interior. I made my cleaning device by drilling the hole in the small plastic cup, put the straw in the hole and fix it by gluing gun. That constructon goes over my home vacuum cleaner, no need for specail attachment system, vacuum is enough to hold it. Now with the tip of the straw I clean all interior of printer. As you can see, it is clean now. I made several test prints and everything is OK for now, no more specks. But belt will obviously need a replacement in nearby future.
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Don't bother with the cleaning - trust me, been there done that. I made a similar contraption with tubes and sucked everything out. Once you see specs, there is no point, it will continue and self destruct shortly. Replace now and save yourself the money and time.
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Thank you for advice, I already contacted service and they ordered replacement belt, but until it comes printer works OK for now, cleaning enable me to continue working till replacement.