Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EricWHiss on February 28, 2011, 03:43:21 pm
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Topic says it all - would love to hear your impressions + feedback - thanks!
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Topic says it all - would love to hear your impressions + feedback - thanks!
Ok, well I'll bite since no one else has.
The IQ digital backs were announced on January 31. They have sold like crazy, I mean literally, like crazy. We are on pace to eclipse our total sales from 2010 - which was a record year for Capture Integration - by this June. Perceptively, the Leaf Aptus-II 12 has been somewhat overlooked. However, IQ180's are bringing Aptus-II 12 into the conversation. Because essentially the question being asked is why pay $12,000 more for the IQ180 instead of the Aptus-II 12? So, looking at it from the perspective, not of what unique features the IQ180 offers, but what unique features does the Aptus-II 12 offer, here are some quick considerations:
*First off, what's not to like about $12,000 saved?
*You can get one right now.
*Leaf internal rotating sensor on Hasselblad V Series models (also for use on Tech Cameras, View Cameras, Bronica, Mamiya RB/RZ, Fuji GX680, etc)
*On the fly cropping to a square 60MP file with rotating sensor on a Hasselblad V (or other, as above).
*Ability to add extra battery power, since the battery compartment is not enclosed.
*No wake up cable.
This is just a quick snap shot of unique features for the Aptus-II 12 that have merit, even against the sexy IQ backs. I'm sure I missed some.
Steve Hendrix
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I have to agree with Steve about the points he made about the Aptus II12 being a great value for someone that is looking to get a 80MP back today and does need all the technology that is in the new IQ series offers.
I have looked at the files from the Prototype IQ180 and the Aptus II 12 and have not seen much quality difference.
We have good number of Aptus II 12 users and they are all very happy.
It is the features and brand new architecture that sets them apart.
The Aptus is a mature platform that has evolved if that means anything to you, where as the IQ is new and still being refined. We are quite impressed with the IQ Prototype we have been showing and it can only get better by the time it ships.
Eric is there something specific you are looking find out with the Aptus II 12?
Lance
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Steve, Lance
Thanks I was hoping to hear from users. Curious to know how the file holds up, if they have problems with the buffer, shooting speed or battery life. General comments about image quality at base ISO and the higher settings, richness and depth of file compared to other backs. Also if anyone found that diffraction limited their stopping down the lenses to a certain f/stop or smaller ... you know that kind of stuff. I guess since they share the same sensor then the IQ backs have nearly identical image quality?
As far as features go, Steve, think you got most except for the articulating screen, and the ability to make notes directly to the files using the input on the back.
Probably a lot of you guessed correctly that I'm looking at the AFi-ii 12, so the IQ 180 isn't an option. Since I've only shot Phase or imacon/hasselblad backs general comments from people that switched would also be useful.
Thanks,
Eric
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Steve, Lance
Thanks I was hoping to hear from users. Curious to know how the file holds up, if they have problems with the buffer, shooting speed or battery life. General comments about image quality at base ISO and the higher settings, richness and depth of file compared to other backs. Also if anyone found that diffraction limited their stopping down the lenses to a certain f/stop or smaller ... you know that kind of stuff. I guess since they share the same sensor then the IQ backs have nearly identical image quality?
As far as features go, Steve, think you got most except for the articulating screen, and the ability to make notes directly to the files using the input on the back.
Probably a lot of you guessed correctly that I'm looking at the AFi-ii 12, so the IQ 180 isn't an option. Since I've only shot Phase or imacon/hasselblad backs general comments from people that switched would also be useful.
Thanks,
Eric
Yes, I was hoping you would hear from users! No one was stepping up, so to bring it back to attention, and start the topic off with some input, I added some thoughts. Hopefully others (users) will chime in with their perspectives.
Yes, the articulating screen for you, since it would be AFi mount, that's a biggie. And I knew I was leaving one significant favorite of mine out, which is the note input ability, and specifically being able to input metadata for lenses that don't have electronic connection (Schneider, Rodenstocks in copal shutters, etc).
I have tested the capture speed, just at full rez and indeed it is about 5 (or 6?) shots at just under 2 seconds per shot, then closer to 2.5 seconds per shot thereafter.
Steve Hendrix
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I have tested the capture speed, just at full rez and indeed it is about 5 (or 6?) shots at just under 2 seconds per shot, then closer to 2.5 seconds per shot thereafter.
Is that tethered to to CF card? How long until it clears?
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FWIW - .02$ worth from use of an AFI II 7:
- the articulating screen seemed unimportant until shooting low in the studio. Boy, does my back thank Leaf.
- 60 mb square file. What's not to like?
- rotating sensor: without that, you are either turning the camera, pulling the back (dust) or giving up the shot. Not good options.
The Leaf back is likely slower than the new IQ - its no speed demon, but then again, state of the art back for your Hy6/AFI? I suspect you'll be pretty happy. I'm not looking back for a minute.
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Hey, Eric,
As you know, I am a happy AFi-II 10 user (and that is saying something). I was speaking with a friend who has a 12 (and a 10) and his initial impressions are that he felt the 12 was even more battery-hungry than the 10, and that the 12's 0.67 fps was slow, but not that big a deal for him. He praised the 4:3 aspect ratio of the 12 vs the 3:2 of the 10, and is a big fan of the 60MP square.
Since you're not on an Aptus-II now, let me reaffirm what Geoffrey said above, about the ergonomics--they're second-to-none. And you and I have shot together, so I can say that from having observed your shooting style (preference for the chimney finder, for example), I think you will love the tilting screen.
He wan't able to do IQ comparisons, as his initial back did have a defect. As I understand it though, the issue is being taken care of.
I guess since they share the same sensor then the IQ backs have nearly identical image quality?
This is a difficult question to answer, because so much IQ work is being done in software nowadays. As I'm sure you are aware, the way charge is handled as it is moved off the CCD and digitized (converted to voltage) is hugely important to final image quality. I think only Phase knows at this point what circuitry the Aptus-II 12 and the IQ180 share beyond the sensor itself. It would *seem* to make sense to only do the R&D once, but there are many factors not visible to us on the outside which could have led to separate implementations.
If you are interested in native file quality, it will probably be revealing to develop files from both backs in a non-native software (ie. something other than C1--DCRaw might be ideal to do an apples-to-apples comparison of file quality). That being said, you are a C1 user, so you will be getting the optimal raw file IQ available from the back. Once developed in C1, almost everything I have come across so far seems to indicate that the resulting IQ of the 12 and the 180 is comparable.
In my own analysis, I've seen some evidence that the 180 may have superior resistance to purple fringing (sometimes due to blooming, but other causes exist). Nothing definitive yet, though.
As you know, I am taking a close look at the 12, myself. Happy to post more on the 12 as I get it...
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are there also similar trade in allowances for the aptus, compared to the IQ? as i recall, trading in toward the IQ gives you a percentage discount equal to the number of megapix on your trade
jm
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Eric,
I used the Aptus II 12 for a week in January thanks to Capture Integration on a trip to California. I am finishing up my thoughts and images which will be headed to Michael at LL shortly. I also wanted to make the RAW files and finished tif's available to the masses for their own comparison. Capture Integration will be sharing those with photographers for review. These landscape images were shot in real world conditions outside of an alley or showroom which is not always possible. Touch base with Doug, Steve, or Dave. I shot the same scenes with the different backs. Nothing but positive comments on the files and operation from the new back. You can see one Aptus II 12 image at full size currently on Leaf's site by looking at:
http://www.anp.se/newsletterweb/1089052/45445B4672474350407243415C43 (http://www.anp.se/newsletterweb/1089052/45445B4672474350407243415C43) and clicking on Read More.
http://www.leaf-photography.com/news_0211_rw.asp (http://www.leaf-photography.com/news_0211_rw.asp)
There is a zoom program that will allow you to pan around at full res.
I am an Aptus II 10 owner so hopefully can add my experience in the review. I think both the Aptus II 10 and 12 offer the best value and quality available in the MF market. I love the Leaf operation, files, and current screens. Not sure if Leaf will be updating to a newer form factor in the future like the IQ backs from Phase but I am just crazy about what they offer now... Great stuff.
Robb
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Hello,
Just got the 12 yesterday for the Afi. I will be shooting with it next week in the field, landscape, but I have big plans for tethered shoots in the next couple months - for which I'm quite excited to be using this platform - but speed will be a limitation I am concerned about. I'll post my first impressions ASAP.
Neil
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I have been using that as a guideline when quoting upgrades into the Leaf Aptus Family where the number of megapixels is equal to your discount from a new back. These specials they say are running until the end of March.
Lance
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Hi Eric,
I needed some guidelines for myself when shooting and just did tests of various lenses at various apertures for optimal sharpness/f stop with the Aptus 12. These are very quick tests, evaluated visually in LC11.4.5. Minimum usable f-stop for lenses:
40mm f/8-11
50mm f/10
80mm f/16
110mm f/22
180mm f/16
I can't compare this with the 7 back - I just traded it in!
The 12 uses batteries - right now I'm running tethered, but I went through a charged battery more quickly than I would have anticipated - I just ordered 3 more extras.
Using full frame it takes me 7 seconds to see the image on my MacBook Pro in LC. Using a cropped format, say the 1:1 square, is somewhat faster. You can press the shutter roughly every couple seconds and it keeps going more or less like that - just shot 20 images, which is I guess about as fast as I've ever shot in practice. Whatever it does, that's what there is - you can have 80 MP and if you're in a hurry, use a Nikon.
Hope that helps - I'm not a big techie, I just used my standardized eyeball.
Neil
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Neil and Robb,
Thanks for the info!
Eric
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Hello,
I just shot with the Afi-ii with Aptus 12 for two days, landscape work in stormy conditions on the Mediterranean coast. The files are brilliant, that's simple. Working with it: first thing you notice is you can take the crop mask out of the viewfinder - it's edge-to-edge, no crop, in one direction in the 6x6 finder. Great - got my lenses back!
Second thing: bring a generator - I shot 200 frames the day before yesterday and four batteries went down (I generally used one on the camera and one on the back -they last longer - and without it there seems to be a tendency for the back to reboot all by itself if it feels it doesn't have enough power, even if the battery still has power - this happened twice during the day when running with the only one battery in the camera for both the camera and back). I don't know if this is a defect with my unit or camera and I sent the camera and back to Leaf via the Tel Aviv dealer Jugend and asked them to check the system.
The touch screen on the back froze once during two days of use and I did a restart. Those are the glitches I encountered.
Another big plus in my view: the 60 MP 1x1 square format, which I used several times on the fly and liked.
At 200 ISO the performance is clearly better than the AFi-ii 7 - this is a usable setting for fine work. Mostly I shot at ISO 50 or 100, but the file at 200 looks pretty good.
The dynamic range is quite impressive - excellent rendition in deep areas, very subtle highlights, see attached file. Brilliant! AT full size this file is magnificent.
The attached photo was shot at f10 with a 40mm at ISO 100 straight into the clouds that hide the sun and the ruins on the hill in the foreground have exquisite color and rendition. This is shot at Tel-Dor, ruins of a Phoenician seaport from about 3000 years ago. Processed in C1 (which does not yet support tehtering of this camera, but they say it will in the next release).
You can't see it in the photo, but I was in high winds where it was difficult to stand, and was covered with light spray from the sea - I had to wipe off the camera and lenses with a damp cloth afterwards.
I hope those glitches will be resolved - the back is simply incredible. An 8x10 hiding in a 6x6 body, I think, when used carefully.
Neil
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I Will be using one during my demos on the professional imaging starting next week. If wanted I can post some results and give a small review.
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Hi, Frank,
That would be appreciated!
Neil, sorry about your freezing/rebooting glitches. Note, the Aptus/AFi-II 10 is full width, but the 12 isn't quite as wide. But it's close. Did you really chew through four batteries to get 200 shots??
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Neil: Capture One 6.1.1 supports tethering to the Aptus-II 12 and 12R.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ("doug@captureintegration.com")
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Hello Doug & Brad,
I have 6.1.1 and it wouldn't tether; I sent a support request to Phase and they replied that the current version doesn't tether to the AFi but the next would. I hope they include the mirror lock-up function.
Brad: two were certainly gone and the other two were well on their way if not totally exhausted.
best wishes, Neil
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As luck would have it, a generous dealer in the Northwest has made one available for my testing mated to a 645 DF body.
I've shot a fair bit with it so far but am a ways from drawing any conclusions of my own until I get a chance to really work the files. I can comment on a few things that seem clear.
Battery life: I shot over 200 images on one battery today and still had a fair bit left so maybe with a new battery its not so bad.
DOF: I do think from my testing that the DOF is shallower for a given focal length, aperture setting,and object distance parameter set than for say a 39mpix back. I was working with a local sculptor to take images of one of his pieces and we had a hard time getting it all in the DOF envelope with the aptus/645DF/120mm but were able to do so with the CFii-39MS/6008AF/120mmPQS using the same framing. I need to study this more to see how whether its really important to me or not.
Detail: Yes, its there and it's glorious
Aptus screen and interface: It seems like the aptus 12 takes a long time to boot up and perform other operations such as zoom to 100% and more so than the AFi-7 and AFi-ii 7 that I have briefly used - either way its a bit longer than I'd like. I am hoping that the new interface will be quicker to navigate with less steps, etc.
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DOF: I do think from my testing that the DOF is shallower for a given focal length, aperture setting,and object distance parameter set than for say a 39mpix back. I was working with a local sculptor to take images of one of his pieces and we had a hard time getting it all in the DOF envelope with the aptus/645DF/120mm but were able to do so with the CFii-39MS/6008AF/120mmPQS using the same framing. I need to study this more to see how whether its really important to me or not.
I suppose you could set Sensorflex to 60MP 4:3 to get the same DOF as with the smaller sensor (and still enjoy higher resolution and Dalsa quality...)
Rgds from Berlin, horrible news from Japan...
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Yeah terrible news about the earthquake.....
WRT DOF - I'll try that but my guess is that its the pitch not sensor size that affects DOF more.
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DOF: I do think from my testing that the DOF is shallower for a given focal length, aperture setting,and object distance parameter set than for say a 39mpix back. I was working with a local sculptor to take images of one of his pieces and we had a hard time getting it all in the DOF envelope with the aptus/645DF/120mm but were able to do so with the CFii-39MS/6008AF/120mmPQS using the same framing. I need to study this more to see how whether its really important to me or not.
Detail: Yes, its there and it's glorious
Aptus screen and interface: It seems like the aptus 12 takes a long time to boot up and perform other operations such as zoom to 100% and more so than the AFi-7 and AFi-ii 7 that I have briefly used - either way its a bit longer than I'd like. I am hoping that the new interface will be quicker to navigate with less steps, etc.
Interesting observation on the DOF issue. Is it DOF that is changing or the emergence of diffraction? l would have thought DOF was determined by the lens and aperture, and not by the recording plane, be it film or pixels. Anyone got some theory to go with this?
The AFi-II 7 isn't a speed demon on the 100%, but it is workable. One can imagine that with more to crunch, this might be an issue in the 12. It looks like the new Phase backs have that resolved.
Did you like the interface (simple enough) or the articulating screen? For shooting low it really saves the back....
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The new GUI will provide an improved zoom-in speed along with a few other useful improvements
Yair
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I used the 12 for a fashion job a couple of weeks ago and it drove me crazy. I knew it would.
waaaaaay too slow. tried c1 and lc, tried the sensor+ 60mp thing, tried everything, way too slow.
but the resolution was great – I could zoom in to see the hair on the models nose. yeah.
it was also fun giving the files to the post producer in the next room, who laughed and then down sized the files to about 20mp, throwing out 3/4 of the data before he even started to work on the files. :o
so, you're asking: why did you use a aptus 12?
because when your camera back is being repaired and your dealer gives you the only back he has you take it...then you spend €400,- on a rental fee for a smaller mp back.
btw, the post producer also told me that's standard procedure – anything over 20-25mp for "normal" production purposes is downsized first – phase files, leaf files, hasselblad and canikon files.
€2500,- digi cameras or €40.000,- digital backs, all are treated equal in the real world of commerce.
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Hi Geoff,
DOF is a convenient way to express the portion of the image that's sufficiently sharp to appear in focus even though in reality there is only one slice at the apex that's truly in focus. Besides the physical properties of the optics, quite a lot of subjective factors go into our convention of DOF such as viewing distance and print size as well as assumptions made about how much detail the average human can perceive. The overall sensor size comes into play in the magnification/print size portion of the equation and the sensor pitch fits into the diffraction component of the equation. The Aptus ii 12 has both a larger sensor and finer pitch.
The system I have to test is the aptus 12 on the phase/mamiya 645 DF body so the back does not have either the tilting screen or the rotating back - two attractive features to those of us on the Rollei/AFi platform. As far as the leaf interface goes, I do like the idea of the extra features offered and I expect were I to buy and use the back my navigation through them would become second nature and I would take advantage of many of them. I shoot a lot of my work tethered, however when I shoot to compact flash cards it's clear that the features to view, sort and delete images in camera will be really useful since the files are so big and fewer fit on the cards.
Eric
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The new GUI will provide an improved zoom-in speed along with a few other useful improvements
Yair
Sounds great! I'd think that eliminating some of the extra steps could really improve the workflow. Since I didn't read the manual there may be a way to configure my preferences, but for example when reviewing the images I'd think that presenting the last ones shot first in the edit window would save a lot of time on review - at least for me. Also having shot mostly with Phase and Hasselblad, I was constantly hung up on stuff like changing the ISO where an extra confirmation step was required where on the other backs none was. I'd shoot a bit and look at the back to see how the images are coming out and see the message that the settings did not take effect because I didn't check the Ok button.
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Just wanted to add that I didn't have any problems with hitting the buffer or speed/frame issues. My strobes cycle about the same rate anyhow...
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Yair,
When will Lightroom/Photoshop support aptus 12 raw files?
Neil
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An Aptus 12 with an AFi? Man, you got the best gear-set possible in the year 2011 on the third rock from the sun. (imo)
Congratulations!
Eduardo
Hello,
Just got the 12 yesterday for the Afi. I will be shooting with it next week in the field, landscape, but I have big plans for tethered shoots in the next couple months - for which I'm quite excited to be using this platform - but speed will be a limitation I am concerned about. I'll post my first impressions ASAP.
Neil
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Yair,
When will Lightroom/Photoshop support aptus 12 raw files?
Neil
At the moment you can re-save them in LC and then go into ACR/ LR. We'll have a new Raw Converter version soon that supports the Aptus-II 12
Yair
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Yair,
What do you mean "re-save"? You mean after I view them do a save as?
Neil
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Neil,
Prob not ideal, but I'm able to work the files in LR3 by just exporting them as DNG files from C1.
Eric
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Eric,
I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but what are the advantages/disadvantages of DNG files? Why would you choose specifically that format?
Neil
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Yair,
What do you mean "re-save"? You mean after I view them do a save as?
Neil
Or adjust them (for example grey balance) and then hit Command+S. They will work better than DNGs in LR
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Yair,
Okay I'm testing the route through LC 11.45 now to LR3 and that seems to work fine. While I had the aptus 12 demo I decided to shoot a stouffer transmission wedge. My goal is to get a linear file with no noise reduction to use for DR comparisons. In LC 11.45 the options appear to be portrait, portrait soft, or product. How can I tell LC to save as a linear file or does it do that automatically? I know once it gets into LR3 how to set the curve to linear.
Thanks,
Eric
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As promised.
Yesterday I shot several demos and small in between sessions with the aptus12 on the phase DF body.
I have to add I use the new macbookpro 2.2 with 8 gb which is on tests twice as fast as the previous version (thank you sandy bridge).
Booting up takes long, but this will be shorter soon I heard ;)
Working is less problematic as I thought from hearing things of slowness, to be honest is was surprisingly quick, even when shooting quick series the MacBook kept up the pace with one small difference with the 7 it was just done with the preview when the next came in (my old MacBook didn't) with the aptus12 it didn't cope that well but when you slow down for DEMO purposes to 1 frame every 2-3 seconds which is fast enough for demos it's fast.
When I shoot a series for myself I only look at the monitor when I'm done so that's no issue in the real world.
Overall I'm not disappointed with the speed and could see myself with MY workflow using it, even in shooting continues the pace was Fast enough for me and relaxed enough for the model. Remember that as long as the model can get into the "groove" or "pace" of the strobes firing it's ok, as long as it's steady.
The quality is very good from what I can se on my laptop, I underexposed one or two shots to see how far they can be pushed and in capture one I could set the lightness/fill in on full with ISO50 and the files kept relatively solid especially considering this is 80mps watched on 100% but I can say for sure when I'm home behind a proper monitor.
Than about the sharpness and quality... Can I just say wow, wicked and did I say interesting ;)
Of course we all know what will happen when you go to 80mp from a 33 so that's no surprise of course there is a boatload of information and when focussed correctly I can't say it's softer than my aptus7.
Will I get one ?
Well if I get one I would love it.
If I have to buy one ;) I don't know yet, for what I do the aptus7 rocks and has more than enough meat and pixels, for people needing the extra mp I would highly recommend it.
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Yair,
Okay I'm testing the route through LC 11.45 now to LR3 and that seems to work fine. While I had the aptus 12 demo I decided to shoot a stouffer transmission wedge. My goal is to get a linear file with no noise reduction to use for DR comparisons. In LC 11.45 the options appear to be portrait, portrait soft, or product. How can I tell LC to save as a linear file or does it do that automatically? I know once it gets into LR3 how to set the curve to linear.
Thanks,
Eric
Eric if you use the .mos files in LR then you can use any curve you like...it's a raw file. Those curves in LC are for processing they do not affect the raw file
cheers yair
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Posted a small mini review of the Aptus12 on my blog at http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/?p=1427
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Posted a small mini review of the Aptus12 on my blog at http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/?p=1427
Frank,
You should be immediatly decorated ! This is one of the very few testings I saw that does not involved a brick wall, a fence, a roof, a wreck car or a city's garden whith tourists. Finaly images that are final products!
What shows the final crop of the first pic is nothing less than impressive. Really impressive.
Well, if a flattened tiff is 500MB, we are talking about an average retouching of 5 gigas in psd !!!
That's damn serious and we are more in video configuration in terms of memory consuming.
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Nice and sane review, Frank. I hope you get the chance to test the back with the RZ, I'm curious how difficult focusing will be and how the lenses look at 100%.
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They left the back with me for a few days so I will also try the RZ. But to be honest I don't see any problems compared to the DF, actually I often get more sharp images with the RZ than with the DF.
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The BJP seems to like it:
Leaf Aptus-II 12 BJP review (http://m.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/test/2040581/eighty-megapixels-leafs-aptus-ii-tested)
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This was interesting in their review:
"My new (and, as I thought) very well specified 17-inch Mac Book Pro has a 2.66GHz Core i7 processor and 8GB of Ram, but was still unable to capture when the camera was tethered. The minimum spec demands a 2.8GHz processor."
So will it work tethered to laptops?
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I have a 15" 2.66 i7 MBP with 8Gb and was able to use the Aptus12II tethered with it just fine.
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I also was able to shoot tethered to my older MacBook pro to C1 (edit - this is a 2.8 GHz intel duo model). But I did have several crashes and didn't feel it was totally stable. Figure this will be improved with future versions. I did not try shooting tethered to LC 11.45 yet.
ps - sorry I inadvertently locked the thread - page buttons too close to lock button on iphone - now fixed