Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Aristoc on February 07, 2011, 03:02:46 pm

Title: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Aristoc on February 07, 2011, 03:02:46 pm
where do you get museum glass and how much does it cost?

Thanks
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 07, 2011, 03:13:49 pm
Personally I use acrylic since it doesn't break and with care works just as well as glass but if it's glass you want, Frame Destination has both:  http://www.framedestination.com/  I also see no need to pay extra for UV acrylic either, saving a little more money along the way.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Aristoc on February 07, 2011, 03:20:29 pm
alan by acrylic you mean plastic? Doesn't that warp from heating / cooling  over time ?  It also scratches easier ?

Thanks for the link but they don't ship out of USA right now.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: elliot_n on February 07, 2011, 03:28:56 pm
It can cost thousands, depending on the grade.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 07, 2011, 03:43:08 pm
I believe the official price for museum glass is "crazy freaking expensive". Any local glass cutting shop (such as an auto shop, window/door supply shop) should be able get it for you.

I'm also in the acrylic camp. I use TruVue Acrylite Conservation Reflection Control (http://www.tru-vue.com/Tru-Vue/Products/conservation-reflection-control-acrylite/). It's way less expensive, I can cut it myself easily on a table saw, and it looks fantastic. Yes, it can scratch easier than glass, but it's not like I claw at the stuff every day.

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 07, 2011, 03:57:18 pm
alan by acrylic you mean plastic? Doesn't that warp from heating / cooling  over time ?  It also scratches easier ?

Thanks for the link but they don't ship out of USA right now.

Yes, it can scratch easier but I've not noticed any scratching with normal care.  Under normal temperatures and light conditions acrylic does not warp.  You would have to get up to extremely high temperatures for this to happen.  According to the data, the deflection temperature under load (where bending will be seen) is 210 degrees F (99 C) at 264 psi (I don't get these kinds of conditions with framed prints in my house or at my former office where I have framed prints on display).
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: AFairley on February 07, 2011, 05:18:25 pm
It depends what you are talking about, i.e., generic UV filtering glass or the coated anti-reflective glass made by Tru-Vue, which they call by the brand name "Musuem Glass"  If the latter, you get it Via True-Vue distributors, it costs around $40-$50 per 24x30" per sheet in packages of 7 (L.A. area, YMMV), other sizes are also available in differening packaeg sizes.  The 2 distributors in the L.A. area do not sell by the sheet.  Some framers such as Aaron Bros. sell it, but the cost at Aaron Bros (in L.A.) is about twice as much.  BTW, the Tru-Vue Museum Glass is much less reflective than the Tru-Vue anti-reflective acrylite, to judge from the info on its website.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Aristoc on February 07, 2011, 05:45:58 pm
it doesnt sound that expensive at all.

im pretty sure that much like closed  car windows, when light passes through it, the temperature of your print will get very very high....given enough time. this heat may cause the acrylic to be weaker as compared to its counter part glass.  Given enough time. And over a period of weeks/months/years acrylic has to show differences. And the damage to print ? well who knows what would happen. prob. better to be safer.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 07, 2011, 07:35:16 pm
it doesnt sound that expensive at all.

im pretty sure that much like closed  car windows, when light passes through it, the temperature of your print will get very very high....given enough time. this heat may cause the acrylic to be weaker as compared to its counter part glass.  Given enough time. And over a period of weeks/months/years acrylic has to show differences. And the damage to print ? well who knows what would happen. prob. better to be safer.
Only if there is direct exposure to sunlight will you reach those temperatures.  Remember the print is not in a "sealed" environment to the same extend that the interior of a car is. 
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: elliot_n on February 07, 2011, 08:34:40 pm
It seems there's museum glass and 'Museum Glass'. The former can cost several thousand dollars a sheet, whilst the latter is apparently MUCH cheaper.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 08, 2011, 12:28:52 am
Am finally at my studio where I have my pricelist for glazing from my wholesaler. These prices are for the Pacific Northwest of the US:

TruVue Museum Glass 32x40" box of 3: $245.00
TruVue Acrylite Conservation Reflection Control 32x40" box of 3: $103.79
TruVue Acrylite Reflection Control 32x40" box of 3: $90.53
TruVue Acrylite Optimum Museum 48x96": $876.16

You can see why for my own work I go with the Conservation Reflection Control Acrylite. It's only $13 more expensive per box than the next grade down which is just Reflection Control, but less than half the price of Museum Glass.

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Aristoc on February 08, 2011, 09:35:15 am
does acrylic look the same when you hold it in your hand ?  Does it flex ?  Does it attract dust on the surface more than glass ?  ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 08, 2011, 10:36:15 am
No it doesn't, yes it does but in a frame it doesn't so who cares, and no it doesn't if you clean it with a proper plexi polish like Novus.

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 08, 2011, 11:57:32 am
I use a microfiber cloth for routine cleaning of plexi-framed pictures.  Gets the dust off and doesn't scratch.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Robcat on February 08, 2011, 12:27:05 pm
My glass source (US East coast, Philadelphia area) is M&M Distributors,http://www.mmdistributors.com (http://www.mmdistributors.com). Their prices seem equivalent to poster above: 4 32 x 40" for $316.45. I think if you're serious about both non-reflective surfaces and transparency, museum glass is the way to go. Bewareit's more brittle than your standard glass, so cutting it yourself requires some skill (and fortitude, given the cost).
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 08, 2011, 12:37:09 pm
I use a microfiber cloth for routine cleaning of plexi-framed pictures.  Gets the dust off and doesn't scratch.

I was always taught to stay away from microfiber when cleaning plexi, as the fibers can catch grit that you can't get out and will then scratch the glass. My prefered way to clean plexi is with Wypall lint-free wipes (http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=540&) and Novus 1 polish (http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=113&). This combination has the added benefit of killing the static charge which is particularly useful when closing up the frame.

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 08, 2011, 12:56:11 pm
I was always taught to stay away from microfiber when cleaning plexi, as the fibers can catch grit that you can't get out and will then scratch the glass. My prefered way to clean plexi is with Wypall lint-free wipes (http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=540&) and Novus 1 polish (http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=113&). This combination has the added benefit of killing the static charge which is particularly useful when closing up the frame.

Neil
As long as you keep the microfiber clean, this is a non issue (or at least I've never experienced it).  After peeling off the protective layer, I wash the plexi in dilute dishwasher soap (Dawn from P&G since that is what we use); rinse with lukewarm water; and then dried with a microfiber cloth prior to framing.  I've probably framed 100 prints by now and have not seen any visual scratches.  Just an additional note, I went back to my well used copy of Ansel Adams's "The Print" and plexi is what he recommends.  I know the Ansel Adams gallery uses plexi in their special edition Yosemite prints.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: framah on February 08, 2011, 02:37:08 pm
They probably use plexi in the gallery instead of glass to lessen the chances of breakage when the customer transports it.

If you are a business with tax numbers and such, you can buy from some of our distributors at our costs. Which is about what was posted earlier for Tru Vue museum glass.

Not sure what is meant by the statement by elliot:  It seems there's museum glass and 'Museum Glass'.

Museum Glass is only sold by the company who uses that name for their glass and that is Tru Vue.

Any glass that costs several thousands per sheet is nothing I have ever known in the business after almost 18 years. A 4x8 foot sheet of Optium acrylic would cost me 41.50 per square foot if my supplier cut it for me. At that price, it would cost $1328 for the whole sheet.  Optium is the plastic equivalent of the low reflection uv protecting properties of TV Museum Glass. Way more expensive but sometimes needed. If you come to me for any of this, you better believe it will cost you much more!! I run a business (theoretically) to make a profit.  2.5 to 3 times mark up is the norm from a frame shop.


If you ever get a piece of art to reach temperatures high enough to warp a piece of plexi,  the odds are that you are storing it wrong... like next to a furnace for melting glass!

Even if you hang it so the sun beats on it every day, it wouldn't soften the plexi enough to allow it to warp. Again, for that to happen, it needs to be temps WAY more than the sun could give you.

Hanging it so the sun hits it WILL destroy the art quickly no matter WHAT you put in front of it.  None of these products give 100% protection from the suns damaging rays. They only slow the process down.

Don't confuse reflection control with museum glass or Optium acrylic. A piece of reflection control plexi or glass has been micro etched and will diffuse the image even with only 2 mats on it. A piece of Museum Glass or Optium will still be almost crystal clear even in a deep shadow box. That's why it costs  so much more... it does more.


Carry on. ;)
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Light Seeker on February 08, 2011, 04:43:49 pm
Do any of the products mentioned in this thread add a green tint? The regular glass I can get adds a green tint whereas plexi does not. This can be an issue with a monochrome print.

Terry.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: framah on February 08, 2011, 05:00:12 pm
Yes, Museum Glass will show reflections as a green tint. It doesn't change the color of the art. Regular glass actually changes the color of art. Put a piece of regular glass next to a piece of MG on top of art and you will see the difference.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: juicy on February 08, 2011, 05:38:00 pm
I think the most expensive glass I've seen was called Mirogard. It's anti-reflective coated and laminated like a car windshield thus in case of an impact it won't damage the artwork. It's a pain to cut because of the laminated construction. You see it in museums guarding masterpieces when a 1,000 /sheet glass is not an issue.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: JeffKohn on February 08, 2011, 06:44:03 pm
Am finally at my studio where I have my pricelist for glazing from my wholesaler. These prices are for the Pacific Northwest of the US:

TruVue Museum Glass 32x40" box of 3: $245.00
TruVue Acrylite Conservation Reflection Control 32x40" box of 3: $103.79
TruVue Acrylite Reflection Control 32x40" box of 3: $90.53
TruVue Acrylite Optimum Museum 48x96": $876.16

You can see why for my own work I go with the Conservation Reflection Control Acrylite. It's only $13 more expensive per box than the next grade down which is just Reflection Control, but less than half the price of Museum Glass.
Wow, why is the Optium (acrylic w/anti-glare optical coating) so much more expensive than the museum glass?
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 08, 2011, 07:44:09 pm
Wow, why is the Optium (acrylic w/anti-glare optical coating) so much more expensive than the museum glass?
It is abrasive resistant compared to their other acrylic offerings and has superior optical properties.  Whether this is worth the premium price is up to the buyer.  One thing to remember is that any paper with OBAs such as Epson Exhibition Fiber will not perform under this glazing because of the UV filtering.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: MHMG on February 08, 2011, 09:22:20 pm
The Optium Museum product also comes in greater thicknesses, for museum exhibition designers to make special display cases. The greater thickness allows pieces to be butted and seamlessly glued.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Aristoc on February 09, 2011, 10:47:36 am
After all of the options/prices and debate, it just might be better to keep the off the shelf glass that comes packaged with the frame I bought from the art store. Unless there is a problem with it.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 09, 2011, 10:51:45 am
The only issues with it are the reflection and lack of UV protection. If you are hanging the print in a relatively dim location you don't need the UV protection. If you don't mind the reflection you don't need the anti-reflection properties.

Personally I love the look of the acrylite I use. It pretty much disappears in front of the image.

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: AFairley on February 09, 2011, 11:36:47 am
One thing to remember is that any paper with OBAs such as Epson Exhibition Fiber will not perform under this glazing because of the UV filtering.

I print on EEF and I don't really see this effect, either under the Tru-Vue regular UV protecting glass or under Museum Glass.  I wonder if this fear is overblown in terms of real world viewing.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 09, 2011, 01:12:11 pm
I print on EEF and I don't really see this effect, either under the Tru-Vue regular UV protecting glass or under Museum Glass.  I wonder if this fear is overblown in terms of real world viewing.
If it is really UV protecting acrylic, you will not get any of the OBA effect as the UV needed to cause fluorescence is filtered out.  If you go to Ernst Dinkla's site (http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm) and look at the spectrum plot for Epson Traditional Photo (the Euro trade name for EEF) you can see how there is very little light reflectance below 400 nm.  This is where the OBA is absorbing light and this gets emitted at 440 nm where the peak fluorescence occurs.  This is what give this paper the unique properties (though such behavior will decay with time as the OBAs decay).  I think Museum Glass provides UV protection so you would not see any difference between the three above assuming they all have pretty much the same UV filtering effect.  You would need to compare those samples with one framed under normal acrylic or even a bare print to see the difference.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: MHMG on February 09, 2011, 03:33:28 pm
I print on EEF and I don't really see this effect, either under the Tru-Vue regular UV protecting glass or under Museum Glass.  I wonder if this fear is overblown in terms of real world viewing.

Take a sheet of EEF. Lay a piece of ordinary framing glass, a piece of standard Acrylic, and a sheet of OP3 acrylic and/or Museum glass on portions of the EEF paper. Make sure you are illuminating it with natural daylight or an artificial source that has some UV energy component. It will be very hard NOT to see distinct paper color changes with this test. For those that don't see any difference, all I can suggest is that 8% of the male population is color blind ;-).
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on February 09, 2011, 04:33:04 pm
For those that don't see any difference, all I can suggest is that 8% of the male population is color blind ;-).
Or that their UV acrylic is misbranded! :D
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: tim wolcott on February 10, 2011, 12:12:01 am
I would only advise tru-vue  either AR anti reflection blocks 76% of the UV which is about $145-175.00 depending wether its on sale and you get 3 32x40 pieces.  I will not frame with anything less.  You also can get this in 40x60 also for 2 pieces for 240-260.00.   Its easy to cut you need to get a good glass cutter.  If you buy one at the framing supply store you got ripped off.  Go to your local glass store and order what they use. 

The only other glass I would use is truvue Museum glass with anti-reflection blocks about 97-98% of the UV.  This glass is now offered in 5 sizes and often goes on sale. 

Now just get some great lighting and pick some great frames.  Of course there is more you have to know, like how to mount your print and use matts.  I may be at the convention in the upcoming year showing how to do this, but to busy this year.  Tim
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 10, 2011, 12:29:53 am
I long ago gave up trying to cut plexi with a glass cutter (score + snap). Ruined so many sheets that way. I bought a proper saw blade and now cut it on my table saw. So much easier :)

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: framah on February 10, 2011, 09:54:39 am
"The only other glass I would use is truvue Museum glass with anti-reflection blocks about 97-98% of the UV.  This glass is now offered in 5 sizes and often goes on sale."

Actually there are 9 different sizes available:
16x20
18x24
20x24
22x28
24x30
24x36
32x40
36x48
40x60

At least that is what is available from my distributor.


Neil.... you need to get an actual plexi scorer. It has a hooked cutter which cuts a groove into the plexi. You need to score it at least 1/3rd of the way thru for it to run clean. A single score will not do it and will most likely break wrong.

Even using my wall mounted cutter,  I will score the plexi  3 times for 1/8th and a couple more times for 1/4. Then I just hold it at the edge on either side of the score and bend it back  and it will run right down the length of the piece.

Table saws are so messy with all that plexi schmutz plus it sticks to everything!

Get a catalog from United Manufacturers and they sell things like hand held plexi scorers and all sorts of stuff you do and don't need but will probably want anyhow.



Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: neile on February 10, 2011, 10:35:11 am
Oh, I tried Farmah! I have an actual plexi scorer from my framing supply house. I'd score a good way through and try to snap, but no love. The table saw is quick, easy, and in the garage so it doesn't really matter if fluff gets around :)

Neil
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: AFairley on February 10, 2011, 01:52:42 pm
Take a sheet of EEF. Lay a piece of ordinary framing glass, a piece of standard Acrylic, and a sheet of OP3 acrylic and/or Museum glass on portions of the EEF paper. Make sure you are illuminating it with natural daylight or an artificial source that has some UV energy component. It will be very hard NOT to see distinct paper color changes with this test. For those that don't see any difference, all I can suggest is that 8% of the male population is color blind ;-).

I stand corrected.  I did this with a scrap of museum glass and a sheet of EEF using the white area of a ceral carton and a while plasitc waste basket as controls.  I could in fact see that the EEF under the glass looked darker than the uncovered EEF, unlike the controls where there was little difference at all (the Musuem Glass has a very slight warming effect IMO).  So thanks for setting me straight.
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: AFairley on February 10, 2011, 01:54:30 pm
The only other glass I would use is truvue Museum glass with anti-reflection blocks about 97-98% of the UV.  This glass is now offered in 5 sizes and often goes on sale.

Tim, is there any pattern to these sales, how do you find out about them?
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: tim wolcott on February 10, 2011, 06:31:37 pm
I offer the framing to my gallery clients as a near cost price change.  I'm in the business of selling my exhibition prints and do not see the framing as a money making part of my business.  This way  get my print exhibited in the home or business just the way I want everyone to see my work.  This always leads to more sales in the end.  Most galleries bend over the client, with no happy ending.  This way I never have a complaint and I always get referrals.  Just my philosophy.  But I have been doing this for more than 20 years.  Even when showing in snooty galleries my images always look better than any others.  Bad glass, bad lighting, bad frames can ruin just about any artwork.  Take away the variables and you win considering everything else is equal. T

But I would never ever use reflection control glass, even if the client prefers it.  I show them the difference and they always go for the my glass
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: pindman on February 11, 2011, 10:30:23 am
Where can you buy it if you're an end user.  Most of the places I've found only sell wholesale.  Thanks.

Paul

quote author=framah link=topic=51201.msg422230#msg422230 date=1297349679]
"The only other glass I would use is truvue Museum glass with anti-reflection blocks about 97-98% of the UV.  This glass is now offered in 5 sizes and often goes on sale."

Actually there are 9 different sizes available:
16x20
18x24
20x24
22x28
24x30
24x36
32x40
36x48
40x60

At least that is what is available from my distributor.


Neil.... you need to get an actual plexi scorer. It has a hooked cutter which cuts a groove into the plexi. You need to score it at least 1/3rd of the way thru for it to run clean. A single score will not do it and will most likely break wrong.

Even using my wall mounted cutter,  I will score the plexi  3 times for 1/8th and a couple more times for 1/4. Then I just hold it at the edge on either side of the score and bend it back  and it will run right down the length of the piece.

Table saws are so messy with all that plexi schmutz plus it sticks to everything!

Get a catalog from United Manufacturers and they sell things like hand held plexi scorers and all sorts of stuff you do and don't need but will probably want anyhow.




[/quote]
Title: Re: how much does museum glass cost?
Post by: framah on February 11, 2011, 10:45:57 am
Pretty much any frame shop will have museum glass in stock or can order it. I have about 6 cases in  stock right now.

If you are an end user who is in the business of selling your work, then you might be considered a business by the wholesalers and can buy it from them.
Usually, you need to have an actual storefront or proof of an actual business such as a resale tax number before they will deliver to you.
Distributors vary on what they want to see as proof of business.