Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: AFairley on January 31, 2011, 02:07:11 pm
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I understand that the recommendation is to turn off IS when shooting on a tripod. I wonder whether IS should be turned off when shooting handheld at high shutters speeds (1/1000 or higher) where you are effectively eliminating camera shake via the short exposure time (assuming you are not panning or otherwise whipping the camera around)?
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Opinions vary, but here's one essay on the topic from Thom Hogan, who says you indeed should turn it off at fast shutter speeds: All About VR (http://www.bythom.com/nikon-vr.htm).
(While specifically about his research into Nikon's VR, odds are it would apply to other brands as well.)
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I understand that recommendation, but I find I always forget to turn it back on when I need it. So I just leave it on.
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yep, remembering to turn it back on is a problem. i sometimes get an unsharp image that i don't understand which may be an IS glitch. however i don't notice a big problem overall leaving it on, even on a tripod when the manual says not to (but i think this varies with lens, stiffness of tripod, phase of moon, etc.) i pretty much just leave it on unless i'm doing some very deliberate work with remote release
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I wonder whether IS should be turned off when shooting handheld at high shutters speeds (1/1000 or higher)
One of the advantages of in-lens stabilization even at high shutter speeds is that it also stabilizes the image through the viewfinder. At least for me, it makes it easier to frame the composition handholding long glass.
Paul
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IS/VR/OS takes time during which AF is not able to shift or adjust for a subject that is moving. It may only be a second but that second can make a big difference in getting the lens focused and the shutter released for a critical shot in time. For BIF for example optical stabilization is not going to help much with subject sharpness but it will slow down the autofocus and an OOF shot or one with the subject not in the frame should be the primary concern.
OS is to enable shooting at slower shutter speeds and is of no value when shooting at 2x the focal length of the lens, i.e. 1/1000 or faster with a 500mm lens. The benefit of OS comes from being able to shoot at 1/250 or slower with the same lens when the subject motion is not going to create motion blur in the picture.
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Another issue that just underscores why I don't need, want, or want to pay for, any such gadgetry. I'd basically never use it anyway, so it's not worth the ridiculous price premium. Nothing like a tripod. ;D
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Another issue that just underscores why I don't need, want, or want to pay for, any such gadgetry. I'd basically never use it anyway, so it's not worth the ridiculous price premium. Nothing like a tripod. ;D
Agreed !! When teaching I stress the cheapest tripod will do more to make tac sharp images than the best IS. (I am on a tripod crusade for most subjects) I bought a IS 300 mm L series Canon and tested it against a monopod for sharpness. Even the monopod won.
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IS/VR/OS takes time during which AF is not able to shift or adjust for a subject that is moving. It may only be a second but that second can make a big difference in getting the lens focused and the shutter released for a critical shot in time. For BIF for example optical stabilization is not going to help much with subject sharpness but it will slow down the autofocus and an OOF shot or one with the subject not in the frame should be the primary concern.
OS is to enable shooting at slower shutter speeds and is of no value when shooting at 2x the focal length of the lens, i.e. 1/1000 or faster with a 500mm lens. The benefit of OS comes from being able to shoot at 1/250 or slower with the same lens when the subject motion is not going to create motion blur in the picture.
If you are a Nikon shooter - don't know about other systems - then it isn't a problem. If you use the AF-ON button then the camera is focused before the shutter is half pressed to activate the VR. :)
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Another issue that just underscores why I don't need, want, or want to pay for, any such gadgetry. I'd basically never use it anyway, so it's not worth the ridiculous price premium. Nothing like a tripod. ;D
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Agreed !! When teaching I stress the cheapest tripod will do more to make tac sharp images than the best IS. (I am on a tripod crusade for most subjects) I bought a IS 300 mm L series Canon and tested it against a monopod for sharpness. Even the monopod won.
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There is nothing "better" than posters who know their own mind and then tell others to follow suit without even the slightest thought or doubt that there is always room for another opinion. ;)
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I'd basically never use it anyway,
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If you have never used it then how do you know enough to condemn it? ;)
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Another issue that just underscores why I don't need, want, or want to pay for, any such gadgetry. I'd basically never use it anyway, so it's not worth the ridiculous price premium. Nothing like a tripod. ;D
*A tripod may not be allowed or socially acceptable in all situations.
*Carrying a tripod may add weight that could be used for a better lense or some food giving the photographer the extra endurance to get that final shot.
*The time spent setting up a tripod could be just enough for some exciting subject to disappear.
I dont think there are many absolutes or general all-in-one solutions. If you are certain that a tripod will always do better than IS for your style, then good for you, you will save a lot of money.
-h
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I apologize if I offended people. My statement was rather all inclusive and actually off the point of the original question.
The point I was trying to make was that I believe technically better photographs are made using tripods than not. (Again off topic I realize)
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Before VR OIS Steady Shot etc. we ancients used to have a rule-of-thumb.... "Set shutter speed faster than focal length selected" eg: 200mm= 1/250 or preferably faster.
That was a good rule of thumb. That's when we didn't print 13x19" and larger routinely, and sharpness expectations have also increased. There are good articles on LL and elsewhere, but many people seem to advocate 2 or 3 times faster shutter than the old rule (unstabilized). So in effect stabilized lens would negate the need for faster shutter speeds than the old rule suggests.
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That was a good rule of thumb. That's when we didn't print 13x19" and larger routinely, and sharpness expectations have also increased. There are good articles on LL and elsewhere, but many people seem to advocate 2 or 3 times faster shutter than the old rule (unstabilized). So in effect stabilized lens would negate the need for faster shutter speeds than the old rule suggests.
Since this is personal to each of us, the only way to really know what applies to YOU is to do tests. Back in 35mm film days, I shot series USAF test targets at different shutter speed to see at which speed I could get the same sharpness as with the camera on a tripod with 90% reliability. As I recall that put me at 1/250 for a 50mm lens. Even easier to do now with a digicam and montior review.
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Who's the "WE" that didn't routinely print bigger than 13"x19"? Most of my work ended up in excess of four by six feet and I can assure you that pre-digital, sharpness
was expected to be extremely high for reproduction and presentation purposes, it had to be right with good lenses and good technique.
Don't bother arguing.... I'll not be coming back to this forum.
Internet. Serious business.
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Why does Canon include IS on very long focal length lenses which, obviously, can be used only on a tripod?
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One area where I know for a fact that image stabilization works at high shutter speeds is when I shoot from helicopters. The shutter speeds range from 1/250 to 1/4000th or higher and the IS stays on no matter what. A Robinson 44 is so full of vibration you can barely hold anything steady and hanging out the door doesn't help. I'll put it this way; the aerial images I've taken at the higher end of what I just mentioned with the stabilization on have been as sharp as anything I shoot, so there appears to be no degradation from the high shutter speed. The non IS lenses I've shot from the helicopters have all be wides and they've been very sharp as well.
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Why does Canon include IS on very long focal length lenses which, obviously, can be used only on a tripod?
Good to see your posts here. You helped when I had a G11; I post at POTN (2mnycars).
IS has transformed my photography. Don't mind admitting it. Getting older(good news!) and shake more. Sure a tripod helps. I've worn out a few.
My G11 was my everyday carry camera; Pany LX5 now.
Best,
DaveL
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Hi,
Some of the lenses shut down IS when the camera is on tripod. Three situations really:
1) Free hand, IS needed
2) Camera on tripod without MLU and released by hand. IS may help
3) Camera on tripod with MLU and cable realease or self timer. IS probably makes things worse.
Only alternative 3 will achieve ultimate sharpness at long shutter times.
Best regards
Erik
Why does Canon include IS on very long focal length lenses which, obviously, can be used only on a tripod?
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I recently did a test, 500mm + 1.4, tripod, mirror lockup, remote, IS on and off. I noticed that with IS on, no shaking was evident immediately following the shutter actuation, but there was with IS off. The images proved this to be true, also. According to some technical writers I've recently read, IS is also designed to eliminate or reduce vibration from mirror and or shutter motion.
Most of my wildlife images are taken at long distances, and any vibration reduction helps, since at 200-500 yards or more, the slightest vibration gets magnified considerably.
It may be true that at closer range, like when the subject is close to filling the frame, that turning IS off is acceptable. As the subject gets further away, IS gets more important.
Also, many times in the wild there is not time to swing around a tripod, get everything locked down in position and take the shot with mirror lockup and remote. IS is the answer. There might be time at a parade, though.
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Why does Canon include IS on very long focal length lenses which, obviously, can be used only on a tripod?
For monopods or on other support for sports, journalistic and other purposes (e.g. safari photography) where tripods are not practical.
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...Most of my wildlife images are taken at long distances, and any vibration reduction helps, since at 200-500 yards or more, the slightest vibration gets magnified considerably.
It may be true that at closer range, like when the subject is close to filling the frame, that turning IS off is acceptable. As the subject gets further away, IS gets more important.
At the risk of sounding like a newbie: does the distance matter? I am expecting a given camera shake to rotate the camera by N degrees for a given focal length. Moving the subject by N degrees during exposure should result in an M pixels long blur, irrespective of distance?
-h
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when i stabilize the camera and when my subject is also not moving i find that IS hurts my image, causing bluring, even with a good shutterspeed.
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I mainly have read details about how Canon's IS works but expect that similar issues exist with other manufacturers. Most of the information I have comes from Canon's various publications and from postings by Chuck Westfall (Technical Advisor for the Canon USA Consumer Imaging Group) on various forums and in his Tech Tips Column in the now defunct but archived 'The Digital Journalist' http://digitaljournalist.org/archives/columns.html (http://digitaljournalist.org/archives/columns.html).
My conclusions from these articles is that the effect of using IS at high speeds or on a tripod depends upon the particular version of IS fitted to the particular lens. Whilst some of the changes are related to the age of the lens (eg the simplest form is fitted to the oldest design), Canon would appear to also be selecting the type of IS based upon the expected use of the lens, eg is it wide to short-tele zoom, an extreme tele or a macro lens. The comments apply to Canon EF SLR lenses, I don't know how applicable any of this information is to Canon compact or video cameras.
As I understand it Canon have three different kinds of IS in as far as the response to tripod use is concerned:
- those that can't detect the use of a tripod - generally these will degrade the image on a tripod as they do not respond well to the type of vibration likely to be present and the IS should be turned off, IS will probably work with a monopod;
- those that can detect the use of a tripod and switch IS off if detected;
- those that can detect the use of a tripod and change the response of the IS to match the likely vibration on a tripod.
I aso believe that Canon have five different approaches to dealing with panning and IS:
- lenses with no IS mode switch - generally do not work well when panning as cannot separate out panning motion from shake;
- lenses with an IS Mode 2 that can be used for horizontal panning, stabilisation is perpendicular to the panning direction (note I am not certain about this mode - arbitrary panning may be possible for all lenses with an IS Mode 2);
- lenses with an IS Mode 2 that allows panning in an arbitrary direction, stabilisation is perpendicular to the panning direction;
- lenses with an IS Mode 2 that allows panning in an arbitrary direction and an improved response to the start of panning, ie the viewfinder image does not show reverse motion (note this may only be available on lenses that also have IS Mode 3);
- lenses with an IS Mode 3, in addition to the Mode 2, which can better ignore rapid movement between subjects.
The Canon IS generally compensates for angular shake however on the EF100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM they introduced hybrid stabilisation that can also compensate for camera shift at macro distances.
Different lenses use a mix of these characteristics and also different generations of stabilisation offering claimed vibration reduction performance equivalent to two to four stops.
It is therefore necessary to understand what IS features a particular lens has and perhaps carry out one's own tests.
Regards
Nigel
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Why does Canon include IS on very long focal length lenses which, obviously, can be used only on a tripod?
The question applies for Nikon as well! It must be that they both consider photographers as idiots, to some extend, they are are correct in doing so... Last year I bought a LN Nikkor 400mm f2.8 Afs D for 4200 Euro, I was looking for the exact version because it has identical optics as the 2(!) versions that followed, but it has a MUCH BETTER tripod leg. It also bears an aperture ring and thus I can use it with an F3 for astrophotography, the guy that sold it to me -almost unused- on that price, did so to buy the recent (at more than double the price) version that has a much worst tripod leg, doesn't have the aperture ring, but is VR! Why the hell he needed VR on a 4800kg (22 pounds) lens.....? Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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Shooting from a moving vehicle? Or shooting from vibrating stands (e.g., bleachers).
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Shooting from a moving vehicle? Or shooting from vibrating stands (e.g., bleachers).
At 1/2000sec? We are talking really long here (400 and above) that can't be handheld remember? I am with IS up to 300/f2.8. Cheers Theodoros