Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ondebanks on January 27, 2011, 08:34:09 am
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The original thread has been locked, apparently because 2 of our leadership figures couldn't get on with each other and went off on a completely tangential slapgfight.
Rather unfair on everyone else - why are we not allowed to contribute to the discussion of the original topic?
So I'm re-opening it here.
"Have Phase One screwed up?"
No - in the sense that they have indeed released a greatly improved product in the IQ backs.
But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".
So not one of these new $20,000+ backs can expose longer than 1 minute. Think about that! Every film camera I ever owned had unlimited exposure. Every DSLR and EVIL/hybrid out there can go for minutes at least, with excellent quality. Daguerre himself used long exposures - he had to, to capture any image - but the point is, he could!
What is photography? In its essence, it is the capture of light by the control of exposure. How the hell did we end up going backwards in exposure capability? It's 2011. And with these expensive new products, we cannot expose as long as they could in 1837, and every year since. There is something terribly wrong in that.
Ray
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The P45+ is still a new and current product.
And still the best long exposure back in the world.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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The P45+ is still a new and current product.
And still the best long exposure back in the world.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
I think his point is that Phase one could develop a long exposure back from the 50 or 60MP Kodak sensor with little difficulty. I mean Hasselblad don't have exclusive access to this chip to they ?
Ed
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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The P45+ is still a new and current product.
And still the best long exposure back in the world.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Hi Doug,
It seems to me that a colleague is about something else. Why today does not produce cameras that limit us. We design new hardware, add bells and whistles, add more megapixels, but we do not think about the basic needs of the photographer. Nobody says this is an easy goal to achieve, perhaps even at the present time impossible to achieve. As you can see, most professionals would satisfy without a trendy touch screen, would satisfy the 60 million pixels but with one hour exposure. And it would be a feature that would speak for the hardware.
Design Freak
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Personally I have a hard time believing any "professionals" have a real need of a 1 hour exposure. I shoot interior architecture which has, arguably, a greater need for long exposures than any other niche of professional photography. I almost never need to expose longer than 3 seconds with my P65. Even before digital, my longest exposures were maybe a minute and half and that was on 50 speed film at f/32 with 3 stops of filtration on camera.
What the Dalsa chip gives me is the ability to shoot with Zero latency (meaning no wakeup cable) which I will gladly give up long exposures for.
Sure, for fine art work, night shooting, longer exposures would be nice but I can't imagine it being beneficial to any Pro's workflow.
Personally I dig all the updates Phase One has made. It's clear that they have been listening to all of us here as many of the new features directly answer the requests of many posts. I don't really have a need for 80mp, but the ability to make huge prints for personal work is exciting. It seems what upsets people more than anything else are the prices. I just don't get it. These things (while expensive) cost less than I used to spend on Film, Processing and Polaroids in a year. In 12 months my P65+ paid for itself and now it actually makes me money. We're really lucky nowadays, there are so many great products out there for photographers. If these backs don't fit your needs or workflow then there is another tool that probably will.
CB
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"Have Phase One screwed up?"
[But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".
Dude, with all due respect, you're one of three people on earth who gives a rat's ass about exposures over 1 minute. ;) Buy a P45+. You don't need the 60-80MPs since things will be moving (presumably the attraction of the effect a la Michael Kenna). So get the rez you need, in a cheaper used back, with the chip you like. What's the issue?
Or try the 645D. It seems to do exposures as long as you leave it open on Bulb. But then it does an equal dark-frame exposure subtraction, so the process is painfully slow (which is why neither I, nor anyoen I know, has bothered to try it. When it's -20C below at night, I ain't standing out there for 20 minutes x2.
See if you can get your local dealer to lend you one for a night and let us know.
- N.
Not sure why you have this hate-on for Dalsa. A lot of people really like their chip and, as noted above, it offers some real advantages.
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4
:D
Dude, with all due respect, you're one of three people on earth who gives a rat's ass about exposures over 1 minute. ;) Buy a P45+. You don't need the 60-80MPs since things will be moving (presumably the attraction of the effect a la Michael Kenna). So get the rez you need, in a cheaper used back, with the chip you like. What's the issue?
Or try the 645D. It seems to do exposures as long as you leave it open on Bulb. But then it does an equal dark-frame exposure subtraction, so the process is painfully slow (which is why neither I, nor anyoen I know, has bothered to try it. When it's -20C below at night, I ain't standing out there for 20 minutes x2.
See if you can get your local dealer to lend you one for a night and let us know.
- N.
Not sure why you have this hate-on for Dalsa. A lot of people really like their chip and, as noted above, it offers some real advantages.
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I'm often asked to make 'Night Shots' of architecture and of course that means shooting in the 'magic 15' after dusk.
I find that my Aptus 75 just doesn't cut the mustard for this. Although it *can* expose for 30 seconds, the quality is too poor. I would indeed like the option to shoot for a couple of minutes with a back. And of course, if I could use a five minute exposure the ability to erase pedestrians with their appalling plastic carrier bags might save a bit of retouching!
As a result I often find its better to just use a DSLR, but its a bit of a shame to leave the A75 nestling in its bag.
So I agree with the principle that its a bit of a limitation for these backs. By the way I love my A75 despite its shortcomings.
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Really? My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds. Any longer and the interiors blow out. My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.
Are you adding ND filters?
-Curious
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I shoot quite a few Dusk shots with a Sinar 54M usually F16 and iso40 and end up with 8-15 sec exposures. I have done 32 sec exposures on occasion and find little if any noise even at 32 sec..I know with the earlier versions of Sinar Capture Shop I had to manually "set the Black point" for longer exposures or the images were awful noisey. Now it does it automatically so never a problem. I am not familiar with the APTUS 75 but is there a setting or procedure similar that you may be missing ? What ISO are you shooting at ?
I do get huge banding and noise if I do long exposures at ISO 200 - But hey...the back is from early 2004 ! so I cant complain ;D
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Ray,
The more I think about this, the more I wonder why you wouldn't be better off using a 4x5 with film. If you are routinely shooting exposures in the 30 minute-plus range, you will shoot very few frames, and can't exactly "chimp" for exposure, etc. If you nailed your reciprocity tables with your film of choice, you could enjoy the quality of 4x5 and the benefits of movements, etc.
Also, since you wouldn't have to wait through dark-frame subtraction, you could, ironically, shoot twice as much as with digital.
Just a thought.
-N.
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"Dude, with all due respect" ... seems a bit disrespectful
I guess I am the 4th who cares about exposure > 1 minute (up to 10min would be nice). Also funny how this was such the big marketing pitch when P1 was using Kodak and were pushing Xpose+. Now it's about hi-ISO via lower resolution when P1 has Dalsa Sensor+. At the price for this kit versatility seems a reasonable goal, be it for night shots or fine art work. As a tech camera user though, the new backs add many new groundbreaking functions and make TS lens and close focusing in general a reality. Not drinking the Koolaid but I do see a 180 2-3 years out when the next great thing is released.
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Heh... I'll give you that. Long exposures was totally a big part of Phase's marketing verbage until the P65+ came along.
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Hi,
Just a few comments...
Regarding the price, if they find customers paying for the back than Phase earns some well deserved money. If he customers are not willing to pay the price there are other options. I don't think that Phase One is in the charity business, but nor is the competition.
Regarding long exposure capacity it's something nice to have, but it may be that MF digital may not be he optimum coice for low light work anyway. I guess that the wast majority of Phase owners don't buy thir cameras primarily for low light work or very long exposures.
DALSa sensors may have other benefits, like less color cast. There are many other factors. It may just be possible that DALSA sensors may have more even quality. At Phase One the backs are essentially assembled before going trough final testing. If the sensor doesn't pass the back needs to be rebuild. Would for instance 80% percent of the Kodak sensors pass but 90% percent of the Dalsa sensors it would have a major benefit for Phase.
Best regards
Erik
The original thread has been locked, apparently because 2 of our leadership figures couldn't get on with each other and went off on a completely tangential slapgfight.
Rather unfair on everyone else - why are we not allowed to contribute to the discussion of the original topic?
So I'm re-opening it here.
"Have Phase One screwed up?"
No - in the sense that they have indeed released a greatly improved product in the IQ backs.
But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".
So not one of these new $20,000+ backs can expose longer than 1 minute. Think about that! Every film camera I ever owned had unlimited exposure. Every DSLR and EVIL/hybrid out there can go for minutes at least, with excellent quality. Daguerre himself used long exposures - he had to, to capture any image - but the point is, he could!
What is photography? In its essence, it is the capture of light by the control of exposure. How the hell did we end up going backwards in exposure capability? It's 2011. And with these expensive new products, we cannot expose as long as they could in 1837, and every year since. There is something terribly wrong in that.
Ray
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Really? My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds. Any longer and the interiors blow out. My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.
Are you adding ND filters?
-Curious
I'm often around 15-30 sec for my dusk images, f/11 on an aptus 75 - no filters
/adam
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Really? My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds. Any longer and the interiors blow out. My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.
Are you adding ND filters?
-Curious
Chris, I had a look at your website, first thing I did was looking under your personal work.
I really like your Exit Americana series a lot, heck you should be doing much more of this work IMO, really good.
However it seems like a lot longer than 9 seconds at F/11 - perhaps it was the old film days ?
Cheers, T
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Touché, man. LoL. But yes, most of that work was shot on 6x12 color neg with exposures up around 7 minutes. 3 or 4 of those were done with a P45+ stitched. So yeah, I guess if I wanted to continue that series I would have to buy a P45+... or just keep shooting neg and dust off the drum scanner.
I do need to get back to that work at some point, but right now all my extra-curricular activities are going into filmmaking.
Thanks for the compliment,
CB
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It's a pretty simple equation to me -
There are clearly some advantages that Phase One feels Dalsa offers that Kodak does not. One of them is not long exposure ability. There is no sensor that ticks off every box. If the P+ backs had never been developed, the omission wouldn't be noticed as much, except in comparison to DSLR long exposure.
There is no reason that Phase One cannot use Kodak sensors and continue to offer a product with extreme long exposure capability. They choose not to, and clearly for a reason. If it made sense to continue with Kodak, they would. It's unfortunate and I don't mean to sound trite at all, but that is the reality. It doesn't have anything to do with Phase One not being able to buy Kodak sensors, etc.
Generally, my perception is that all digital back manufacturers have the option of working with either Dalsa or Kodak (and sometimes both at the same time, as both Hasselblad and Phase One currently do). It only takes money and I'm sure both Dalsa and Kodak will be willing partners.
Steve Hendrix
Steve Hendrix
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Sure, for fine art work, night shooting, longer exposures would be nice but I can't imagine it being beneficial to any Pro's workflow.
It's more than beneficial - absolutely necessary in some instances. Using a Lee Big Stopper (10 stop ND) to blur the ocean and sky, combined with ISO 50, and a 2 stop center filter, I regularly have exposure times in the 10 - 20 minute range (sometimes even longer). For this kind of work, the P45+ I use is still - even with the release of the IQ backs - my MFDB of choice.
If I made my living in the fairly (lighting wise) controlled world of product, advertising, fashion, architecture etc. I'd be really looking at these new backs in earnest, but until Phase puts the chip from the P45+ in one of these new bodies, no thanks.
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I don't really know much about the technicalities of these backs, but it seems that the most significant innovation of the IQ range is the ability to provide a kind of live view (albeit at low refresh rates), which people have been screaming out for, not least on this site. I would assume from this that the Kodak sensors are for some reason not suitable for this - heat, perhaps?
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In general, CCD sensors can't be read as quickly as CMOS sensors. But it is a constantly evolving field. There's a small summary here
http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.aspx
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The P45+ is still a new and current product.
And still the best long exposure back in the world.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
Doug,
I know the P45+ is still good. And I also know you're going to sell a truckload of new IQ backs to folks who don't care about long exposures. And I'm happy for you.
What I was really getting at is this: where are PhaseOne going? What's their long term development plan? Does it include anything for those of us who want to see continued improvements in long-exposure backs, or is the P45+ the end of the line? Based on the evidence, it seems to be the end of the line. Can't you see why that would be alarming?
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Based on the evidence, it seems to be the end of the line. Can't you see why that would be alarming?
Its only alarming if you think that there will never be another technology capable of long exposures. Remeber when the P series first came out? No long exposure capabilities, then a breakthrough and we had up to 1 hour exposures using the same sensor.
Remain calm....I just looked outside and I can say with a tremendous amount of confidence that the sky is in no danger of falling :)
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Dude, with all due respect, you're one of three people on earth who gives a rat's ass about exposures over 1 minute. ;) Buy a P45+. You don't need the 60-80MPs since things will be moving (presumably the attraction of the effect a la Michael Kenna). So get the rez you need, in a cheaper used back, with the chip you like. What's the issue?
Nick,
"What's the issue?". Ah, yes - remember that's what people said when Hasselblad closed the H system and all those H shooters cried foul! "What's the issue - you still have your H1's and H2's and all your current MFDBs in H fitting; what are you moaning about?" They were moaning about being cut off from future upgradability. Their horizons were being narrowed. That's what my issue is, also.
Not sure why you have this hate-on for Dalsa. A lot of people really like their chip and, as noted above, it offers some real advantages.
Whoa! Hate is a strong word! I am aggrieved that they put out sensors which are spec'ed so contrary to what I want. They hugely narrow my back choices for the camera platform I want (taking my fast M645 lenses - the Pentax can't, the Hasselblad can't). I feel myself being pushed out of the medium format that I have loved for 19 years.
Plus I basically blame them for killing Mamiya's ZD (camera and back) with such a godawful sensor as the FTF4052C. :P
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Personally I have a hard time believing any "professionals" have a real need of a 1 hour exposure.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p45-long.shtml
...scroll down to "More Than Academic"
And he didn't even mention the category of shooter who would most need this capability.
Ray
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It's a pretty simple equation to me -
There are clearly some advantages that Phase One feels Dalsa offers that Kodak does not. One of them is not long exposure ability. There is no sensor that ticks off every box.
C'mon, Steve. For that sort of money? You should first and foremost get everything that a far cheaper, smaller format camera can do, and then some more. Not less.
I am not surprised at how dispassionate you are. I really didn't think that my invoking the history of photography and a philosophical cry of "how did we go backwards?" would resonate with the pros and the dealers. You guys only care about the bottom line, and if the tool does the job for you, you're happy. Philosophical musings are for amateur enthusiasts. Some people did get it, though.
If the P+ backs had never been developed, the omission wouldn't be noticed as much, except in comparison to DSLR long exposure.
And in comparison to film - that stuff that's been around for a century, you know?
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Plus I basically blame them for killing Mamiya's ZD (camera and back) with such a godawful sensor as the FTF4052C. :P
That same "godawful" sensor is what made the Valeo 22, Aptus 22 (and later the Aptus-II 5) become some of the best and most popular digital backs for studio work and for fashion
25 iso, great colour and sharpness, good live view and 0.9 sec/ frame. I know these are not your requirements but they were/ are for thousands of other people
You can't blame the sensor for the ZD's faults, sorry...
Yair
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You can't blame the sensor for the ZD's faults, sorry...
+1, Those 22mp Leaf backs were the cornerstone of so many photoshoots I worked on over the years. Its a testament to the quality of MFD that a CCD from 2003 still produces better quality in studio than Canon and Nikon's 2011 offerings. This should not be ignored when people wonder why MFD still uses CCD. I'm sure CMOS is coming in the future, but if would only really give us bigger DSLR quality files do we really want it?
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C'mon, Steve. For that sort of money? You should first and foremost get everything that a far cheaper, smaller format camera can do, and then some more. Not less.
I am not surprised at how dispassionate you are. I really didn't think that my invoking the history of photography and a philosophical cry of "how did we go backwards?" would resonate with the pros and the dealers. You guys only care about the bottom line, and if the tool does the job for you, you're happy. Philosophical musings are for amateur enthusiasts. Some people did get it, though.
And in comparison to film - that stuff that's been around for a century, you know?
Ray -
You misrepresent, I might even say disparage, but... - and I will forgive you in advance - my motivation for assessing the situation with long exposure and Dalsa sensors. My perspective on these products comes from my knowledge and experience with that is required to produce them with the features they have or are not able to have.
So my perspective is that all products are a combination of features and compromises (and sometimes worse, glaring flaws).Often, in order to advance one feature, it comes at the expense of another. This, I think is obvious to most familiar with technology.
Considering that over the history of all digital back products, there have never been any that either are able to or were recommended to produce exposures more than 30-60 seconds (the P non Plus backs being a modest exception, with some capable of a few minutes, depending on which sensor).
The one very notable exception would be the Phase One P+ Series, who may easily do 15-30-45-60 minute exposures, dependent upon conditions. What was involved in the modifications to enable this that might potentially prevent advancement on some other performance element, who can say? But these were Kodak sensors, which are/were also purchased and used by Hasselblad, as well as Sinar in their digital backs. And yet, only the P+ backs had this capability. So, it is not an off the shelf capability, it requires a combination of some secret sauce and possibly some additional component or modification of existing components.
So, Ray - that is my perspective, understanding this, and knowing that the nature of technology frequently involves the addition or enhancement of features at the expense of others.
However - it is too bad that you chose to inaccuratley guess at and misrepresent me because I had just read your earlier posted rebuttal to Doug and I was going to post that I agree with your point, as well as your sentiment.
Well, I"ll give you the benefit of the doubt and go forward anyway.
I do agree, that having the ability to perform long exposures with the Phase One P+ backs, especially considering this could be involved already over numerous models of ownership very easily and naturally becomes a critical part of your business. After all, one may have bought a P25+, then 3 years later upgraded to a P45+, still maintaining the same ability, so over this period of time (4 - 5 years) surely it is something you're depended upon.
And I agree - the notion that there may never be another medium format product like that, the end of the pinnacle line for that capability is the P45+ and no future IQ and better products would have that ability - I agree that is, I don't know the word for it, Bad. It's not unresonable to expect that since this has continued across multiple sensors, it would be a staple of future development.
I don't glibly feel that hey, you have a P45+, just be happy. You might wish to continue this type of work 10 years ongoing or longer. And even if your P45+ still hung in there and did the job for you, you would like the option to have this capability to use along with future advancement. If for nothing else, at some point, a newer, more reliable product than a 9 or 12 year old product.
I agree.
So, understand, from what I say, that I do not possess a non-appreciation of your situation and circumstance. I do appreciate it. But I am also aware of the reasonings behind it, and challenges involved and my perspective also reflects that.
It could be interesting if Phase One, or Leaf, or even Hasselblad, decided to produce a new product that incorporated long exposure ability like the P+ backs do, perhaps a single specialized sku. But it would probably be expensive, because of the R&D pull away from other projects that will have more universal appeal.
But ultimately, I suspect it is possible this may be a temporary issue as it is my belief that within say, 5 years perhaps, some sort of lower power, more sensitive sensor technology will be incorporated into medium format. And it is likely this new technology would be able to more easily accomplish this while also remaining flexible enough to innovate in other areas.
Also, I understand your comment about film being around forever, but I was discussing the reference to digital products, with regard to my statement about DSLR long exposure contrasted to medium format.
Sorry for the rather long post.
Steve Hendrix
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Regardless of the issue under discussion, a healthy thank you to Steve and Doug for being so thoughtful. After some years of working with this gear, and numerous posts, it is commendable they still take the time to write at length and with patience.
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I don't think Phase One screwed up, they just answered a few questions people have asked for 6 years.
If I have any issue is they just didn't go far enough, but that's probably dependent on their resources, balance sheet and who/where they intend to market their back.
I also don't have any problem with the price, it's totally in line with any specialty equipment, it's just if this is the lamborghini of the digital camera world I'd like it to be more adventuresome and offer me something I just couldn't do without, because at the end of the day, giving me the ability to shoot something I couldn't shoot before is the goal.
Then while anyone of us will admit it or not, there is the bling factor.
I know it's typical understated Danish functional design, but when you drop 40 something large you'd kind of like clients to go wow, how much did that thing cost?
Phase took the high road and for that they should be commended. Just take it up two more notches please.
(http://www.red.com/images/products/epic/tech-spec/p_epic-2.png) (http://www.phaseone.com/~/media/Phase%20One/Teasers/205px/IQ-series/IQseries2.ashx)
IMO
BC
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Love the comparison. The Epic IS damn sexy. I need to find a way to justify the purchase. LoL. Fortunately I have months to get funds in place.
Maybe I'll start mounting my Arca on rods with my mattebox to make it look cooler.
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Love the comparison. The Epic IS damn sexy. I need to find a way to justify the purchase. LoL. Fortunately I have months to get funds in place.
Maybe I'll start mounting my Arca on rods with my mattebox to make it look cooler.
You kind of get the idea that if Leaf was running Phase instead of the other way around, you might see something that looked like the Epic, or at least this:
(http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0809/leaf/SideB_WL_tilt_001.jpg)
imo
bc
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Really? My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds. Any longer and the interiors blow out. My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.
Are you adding ND filters?
-Curious
with an aptus 22 (iso 25)... and a 35 xl with center filter... using F11-16... 9 seconds won't works !
i would like to see a picture made with an IQ back at 1min and 400 iso...
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I'm not sure that the comparison with the Epic makes sense.
Yes, the Phase back does follow the minimalist Danish design ethos, but I can't think of much that's left out.
A cinema camera such as the Epic, on the other hand, has to be designed for a broad range of ad-ons, from batteries, to monitors, to mics, to recorders, to follow focus devices, to matte boxes, etc, etc. It therefore needs a large number of attachment points, handles and other accessory rigs, which makes it look "cool", but also really bulks it up.
Form follows function, in both cases, it's just that the functions are so different.
Michael
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I'm not sure that the comparison with the Epic makes sense.
Yes, the Phase back does follow the minimalist Danish design ethos, but I can't think of much that's left out.
A cinema camera such as the Epic, on the other hand, has to be designed for a broad range of ad-ons, from batteries, to monitors, to mics, to recorders, to follow focus devices, to matte boxes, etc, etc. It therefore needs a large number of attachment points, handles and other accessory rigs, which makes it look "cool", but also really bulks it up.
Form follows function, in both cases, it's just that the functions are so different.
Michael
Agreed.
What I really meant was more of a modular still camera, one without mirror, with larger (yes bigger is better) monitor(s).
I understand what Phase did and as I've said it makes sense and I think the screen looks great. For many it may be well worth the price. I wish they had done it sooner and with a different camera platform, but I could say that about almost everything in the world of digital.
And RED is far from perfect. Using the RED ONE is kind of like taking the motor out of a hummer and putting it on your shoulder.
Still, RED really broke new territory at a price point. The workflow is still in frustrating baby steps, the file is a way new learning experience, just buying a RED takes a long time, but the whole Idea of starting from scratch and coming so far is exciting and . . . and . . . when the RED ONE is in the room, everyone knows it.
The Phase back has a very elegant Leica look to it, the phase camera just looks a little out of place, but that's just me, because I like industrial strength equipment.
IMO
BC
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with an aptus 22 (iso 25)... and a 35 xl with center filter... using F11-16... 9 seconds won't works !
i would like to see a picture made with an IQ back at 1min and 400 iso...
I'd tend to shoot that sort of scene at ISO 100 on the P65+. I never stop my 35XL down past 8 1/2 and I don't use center filters, so yeah our exposure times would be worlds apart... 4 - 6 stops.