Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: eriktorpolsen on December 20, 2010, 09:44:25 am
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Which DSLR's have mirror lock-up?
Even though I'm mostly shooting medium format analog it would be
nice to have a DSLR with mirror lock-up, since most of my shooting
takes place in light conditions were shutter speeds from 1/4 sec.
down to several seconds and even minutes are required.
I used to own a Nikon D-50, and I am currently in posession of a
Nikon D-3000, but neither has mirror lock up, and since I'm almost
allergic to anything less than PIN SHARP I need some advice here.
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Botyh the D700 & D300 have mirror lock-up
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Thanks for replying. Camera reviews seldom mention the important stuff like mirror lock up, but for me it's a must.
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It's easier to keep track of with Canons: None of them have (one-button) MLU (although some folks claim that Live View on recent ones is an acceptable substitute).
I think Canon deliberately omits an MLU button just to annoy Michael (and me).
Eric
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The D7000 has as well from Nikon. D90, D5000, D3100 & D3000 don't. Of course the D3 variants do as well.
On the Nikon USA site, each camera has a tab for Tech Specs and the presence (or lack thereof) is noted.
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…I think Canon deliberately omits an MLU button just to annoy Michael (and me).
Eric
My sources corroborate this info as well. :D
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Seems like I need to hunt down one of those then.
I consider a camera without a proper MLU a toy.
I tested my Nikon D 3000 at 1/2 second shutter speed just now
with a small glass of water on top of the hot shoe and using a
remote control to trigger the shutter, and it suffers from mirror slap.
Lots of ripples on the surface of the water.
Nobody's going to make me believe that this kind og vibration isn't
going to affect sharpness unless shutter speeds are way faster than
what is needed for shooting in low light situations.
Therefore, cameras without MLU are expensive and unusable toys in
such conditions. I also tested my M/F Bronica SQ-A which has a mirror
the size of a barn door, and it vibrates even though the mirror is locked up,
which worries me. Now I know why I get blurred images at shutter speeds
at 1/2 sec. and longer. Also did put a bean bag weighing four pounds on the
damned thing and it still vibrates which makes me wonder how much weight
I need to put on top of it to make it rock steady. I've heard three times the
weight of the camera as a rule of thumb. I guess a car battery would do the
trick :D
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Isn't there a shutter delay timer that you can use to allow the vibration to settle ?
Not preferred, but works.
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Yes, the D3000 has a delay which unfortunately does not raise the mirror and then fire the shutter.
Both actions happen simultanously.
But it does prevent vibration from pressing the shuttter-knob which is better than nothing.
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I just did some test on both the Nikon D-3000 and the Bronica SQ-Am.
I know this is a digital forum but the SQ-Am is such an earth shaker when it
trips the mirror and the shutter that it serves well as a worst case scenario subject.
This is what I found:
A bean bag helps very little when the camera is mounted on a cheap tripod like mine.
So, I placed both cameras on a carpeted floor with a 4 pound bean-bag on top, and
both cameras showed absolutely no vibration (SQ-Am with MLU). And this is quite interesting:
Both cameras also did benefit more from the sitting on the floor than from the bean-bag
alone. So the quality of the tripod, head and mounting plate matters perhaps more than just
weighing the camera down. The SQ-Am has a motordrive for advancing the frames and it
shakes like crazy, but even this in combination with the barn door sized mirror (no MLU)
produced very little vibration when sitting on the floor. Something to remember when buying a
new tripod.
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Try putting them on a hardwood or ceramic floor. The carpet/underpad will provide vibration damping.
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It's easier to keep track of with Canons: None of them have (one-button) MLU (although some folks claim that Live View on recent ones is an acceptable substitute).
I think Canon deliberately omits an MLU button just to annoy Michael (and me).
Eric
Annoys me too, especially as I can't discern a rational reason for it beyond deliberately annoying people. The Pentax K-7 and K-5 also have MLU via dedicated controls.
On my 5D I have it set via a Custom function.
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I did . . . placing them directly on the wooden floor too, and the vibration got worse.
Seems like weight, stiffness and damping in combination is the way to go.
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Now all you need to do is design a super cool liquid (oil?) damping system for the head of a tripod that doesn't compromise rigidity and you're all set. ;D
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i almost invariably use liveview instead of MLU - very simple on the 5D2 and 7D, less simple and also less satisfactory on the 40D with lower resolution screen. not sure about the other Canons with liveview
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I borrowed a heavy Gitzo a while ago that had a head with three huge knobs on it that was really nice. Spirit-levels everywhere.
Nice tripod. These days I'm drooling over a tripod at the local hardwarestore of the kind that building-contractors use when levelling roads and building-sites. I need to get a decent head and perform some mechanical tweaking on it, but that's OK.
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It's easier to keep track of with Canons: None of them have (one-button) MLU (although some folks claim that Live View on recent ones is an acceptable substitute).
Actually, Live View for MLU on recent canon cameras is actually better than standard mirror lockup. The reason is the 1st curtain in Canons is now electronic, not physical. So if you engage Live view, then take an image, their is no physical curtain moving as the sensor is already uncovered ready to begin capturing. This means there is absolutely nothing in the camera moving at all ... technically even better than a leaf shutter in the lens.
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The Pentax K20D, K7 and K5 all have MLU, and what I find most intelligent, is that when you use either a remote or delay (2sec or 12sec), it automatically engagues MLU and disables SR. SR should be disabled on a tripod anyway, and using either a remote or delay cuts down on the possibility of vibration from pressing the shutter. This is simply smart design. MLU is such a logical and useful feature, especially for landscapes, I presumed all cameras had it.
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I too would have presumed that all decent cameras had MLU.
I have a hunch that consumer products today aren't made to be good,
only barely good enough for the manufacturers to make money making them.
It also seems like MLU simply isn't mentioned a lot. Perhaps manufacturers
try to hide the fact that anything moving inside a camera will produce
blurry images and that they won't add MLU to keep cost down?
Seems like only the flagships have MLU simply because these cameras are
so wildly expensive that people wouldn't buy them if they hadn't.
Coming from the analog world I was very disappointed to learn that the
digital versions of reasonably priced analog SLR's were not quite up to the
standards I was used to.
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A second hand Pentax K20D is reasonably priced too.
I'm considering on of those.
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I wonder how many users of DSLRs use MLU? I wonder too how many have actually heard of it?
It seems to be that a lot of sales in recent years have been made to those who want better image quality, and want this applied to their family and holiday photos. If this is the case, why would they need MLU? Further, any books about 'Digital Photography' they are likely to buy may not mention it. I suspect a lot of people just want better images but don't expand their photographic depth. This is not a criticism, it's just an observation with a lot of assumptions.
From this angle, adding easily accessible MLU may seem a waste of time. Ironically, LIve View may be providing it in any case...
The business mind in me gets the manufacturer position. The photographer side is irked, because it would be great if manufacturers provided such things, and manuals that described the opportunities provided by cameras. Instead, manuals simply list instructions for how to do things which are obscure, and to which no photographic advantage is attached. If manuals encouraged use, the manufacturers might sell more supporting gear such as lenses, flash etc. Oh well.
Anyway, it still irks me that my 5D, often mentioned as a good landscape camera, does not have a dedicated MLU button.
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You're right. Reviewers often get hung up in things like the menus could be more logical and the like.
Who cares? Not me anyways. My primary concern is getting images that are sharp. Period.
They simply don't make cameras for photographers anymore, and when they do it's a Leica costing
more than a new car. I've got nothing against digital, but DSLRs at affordable prices has taken a wrong turn,
which is why I bought a film-scanner and analog medium format gear. Ever heard of mirror slap or shutter
vibration in a Rolleiflex? ;)
Still it would be nice to have a decent DSLR with good old MLU.
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Most DSLR cameras today are designed for people with a P&S approach, with pretty sophisticated and accurate auto features. (That's why there is so much attention to high ISO, too.) The majority want cameras that do magical things for them without them knowing much about the photographic process. (The majority, by the way, don't come to sites like this. They just go out and shoot in full auto, leaving all that technical stuff and discussions to others.)
The advantages of MLU is something they neither know anything about nor would mess with in their shooting process, because they are hand-held snap shooters. Most of the vibrations from mirror slap are absorbed by hands and SR or IS functions. It is only when the camera is on a tripod that MLU becomes very important.
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Actually, Live View for MLU on recent canon cameras is actually better than standard mirror lockup. The reason is the 1st curtain in Canons is now electronic, not physical. So if you engage Live view, then take an image, their is no physical curtain moving as the sensor is already uncovered ready to begin capturing. This means there is absolutely nothing in the camera moving at all ... technically even better than a leaf shutter in the lens.
+1 I completely agree with Wayne. I don't understand the carping about MLU, as it applies to 5Dii and 7D. Can has listened to teh requests for MLU and responded with something even better than simple analog MLU. In addition to Wayne's points, I note that absolute focus and depth of field can now be checked and adjusted at nearly any point or points in the live view image and all this at 5x or 10x zoom. Furthermore, these cameras provide exposure simulation with real time RGB histogram, meaning you can check exposure before shooting. Most reviewers have given live view short shrift, not appreciating that it is a game-changer for landscape shooters.
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although slow, the contrast detection autofocus in Canon liveview is probably more accurate with zoom lenses as it's using the lens image at the focal length selected - too bad it doesn't work with depth of field preview to eliminate focus shift as well
it also works with extenders which result in apertures too small for the Canon phase detection autofocus to work
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I have a Nikon - yes it has mirror lock up-
but i would also like it to have permanent mirror lock up to prevent the heavy noise of the mirror while shooting.
I could have used that in certain occasions like violin concerts..
yes it would cost me the battery but that is OK with me.
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although slow, the contrast detection autofocus in Canon liveview is probably more accurate with zoom lenses as it's using the lens image at the focal length selected - too bad it doesn't work with depth of field preview to eliminate focus shift as well
it also works with extenders which result in apertures too small for the Canon phase detection autofocus to work
Autofocus and live view do not go together for shooting landscape. It is far better to use manual focus with the live view zoom set to 5x or, better still, 10x. Using this procedure, you are looking at focus on the sensor without relying on any algorithm to determine focus of the lens.This is the modern equivalent of the focusing cloth and ground glass of the view camera, except the image iright side up :). And using the DOF preview with exposure simulation allows you to check focus with the lens stopped down, so any focus shift can be adjusted, too.
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the sensitivity of manual focus with many autofocus lenses may make liveview autofocus a better option. the best option for landscapes (or static macro subjects) is a Canon TS, macro (manual focus for macro subjects is great, less good at distance) or Zeiss lens that can be precisely focused manually with liveview and magnification - with stop-down for dof check. i'd rather have the stop-down function be progamable to a more convenient button than mlu
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the sensitivity of manual focus with many autofocus lenses may make liveview autofocus a better option. the best option for landscapes (or static macro subjects) is a Canon TS, macro (manual focus for macro subjects is great, less good at distance) or Zeiss lens that can be precisely focused manually with liveview and magnification - with stop-down for dof check. i'd rather have the stop-down function be progamable to a more convenient button than mlu
Huh? Try the DOF preview button, a separate button on the body, near the lens mount, completely independent of live view.
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liveview does not work with the preview button depressed - you are only allowed to autofocus with the lens wide open in liveview. it would be nice to autofocus at shooting aperture for lenses with noticeable focus shift.
it would also be nice if the preview button had a more convenient location
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liveview does not work with the preview button depressed - you are only allowed to autofocus with the lens wide open in liveview. it would be nice to autofocus at shooting aperture for lenses with noticeable focus shift.
it would also be nice if the preview button had a more convenient location
Liveview works on my 5dii with the DOF preview button depressed. Furthermore, it is much more useful than when I relied on the viewfinder. In liveview with DOF preview on, the screens dims briefly than the illumination increases automatically, so you can check focus with the lens stopped down.
I agree that the DOF button is not well placed, but it is a minor point.
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yes, liveview works with dof preview and is a powerful composing tool.
my point is that you cannot use the liveview contrast detection autofocus with the preview button depressed