Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: NigelC on December 15, 2010, 08:04:20 am
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Just wondering, if I have already created a black and white image I am happy with in ACR/Photoshop, is it still advantageous to print in ABW mode (using an Epson 3800)? )I have an idea that the benefit of ABW is more about neutrality rather than a B&W conversion tool) If the answer is yes, would this still be true if I wasn't using a paper for which an ABW profile is available, or would I be better off then letting Photoshop manage colours using the correct printer/paper profile. Of course I can and will test this for myself, just wondered if there is an "official" view?
PS Just upgraded my Photoshop by 3 versions so playing with lots of new new toys in ACR!
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I often used ABW with my 7880 - with 3rd party papers I looked at using QTR to make a linearising profile. Sometimes it was needed sometimes not.
Generally I liked the output and was happy to use it for supplying large B/W prints. Although I didn't measure it, I've seen reports suggesting that the ABW blacks get a bit deeper than printing in 'colour'
Just recently we got a Canon 8300 where I've been looking at the Canon equivalent to ABW (I just asked some questions about it in another thread, so there may be responses there that are relevant to the Epson ABW)
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Just wondering, if I have already created a black and white image I am happy with in ACR/Photoshop, is it still advantageous to print in ABW mode (using an Epson 3800)? )I have an idea that the benefit of ABW is more about neutrality rather than a B&W conversion tool) If the answer is yes, would this still be true if I wasn't using a paper for which an ABW profile is available, or would I be better off then letting Photoshop manage colours using the correct printer/paper profile. Of course I can and will test this for myself, just wondered if there is an "official" view?
Nigel
The ABW mode on Epson printers is not intended to do B/W conversions for you. It is intended for printing high quality output from existing monochrome files. There are three advantages to using ABW rather than printing a B/W image as RGB output -
* You will get a slightly better D-max.
* ABW uses less of the colour inks (PK, LK, LLK, LM, LC no C or M at all, and a very small amount of Y), so theoretically the print will have better archival properties.
* And you can use the toning panel in ABW to produce a warmer or cooler print.
The only paper profiles that I know of which work with ABW are those on Eric Chan's website. However, I printed perfectly satisfactory prints without them for several years.
John
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Dano from Epson America here:
Lightfastness ratings will increase on files printed through the ABW Mode.
Third party testing confirms this.
While I do not have definitive data to reference, observations indicate the ABW Mode produces the highest quality when a file is first converted to BW.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Epson America
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Nigel, please let us know what you come up with with your comparison results. I did a comparison myself a few weeks ago(R2880). Not scientifically, just eyeballed it.
I printed on Canson Photo Satin. I converted an image to B&W in CS5. Once happy with it I used this image for my at home comparison. I never tried using ABW as a converter since I want to know what my image will look like long before it goes to the printer.My understanding from a tutorial is that you can send monochrome RGB, Colour RGB or grey scale RGB to the advanced black and white mode.
I still have my comparison prints from a few weeks ago. Of several images, I found it was difficult to tell the difference between using photoshop manages all the colours or letting ABW manage all the colours. I didnt make any changes or toning in ABW. Just printed it the way it is by default. Except for one thing...I set the tone to 'dark' or sometimes even 'neutral' or 'normal' instead of the default 'darker' because this makes an observable difference.
in my comparisons i tried all combinations to see what would happen. I tried PS manges colours and then turned ABW on too to see if ABW would take over, which it did. I tried photoshop manages colours ONLY and turned ABW OFF. I then also compared letting ABW only manage the colours. I have to say, in my comparison of one paper, that thw ABW print was very neutral,and had a very nice grey, whereas the photoshop manages colours print had a kind of cast to it. I wouldnt be able to tell if I wasn't holding both images up side by side . but the image where photoshop manages colours had a kind of different colour to it. i guess it was a cast. it had a slight , very , very slight purplish tint to it. very hard t tell if you were not holding the images up side by side. Probably wouldnt notice it unless you're an expert.
so i prefer to use the ABW mode whenever doing my B&W prints so far. Of course, when I am doing duotone or quadotone images, I HAVE to let photoshop manage the colours and turn the printer control OFF>
Just wondering, if I have already created a black and white image I am happy with in ACR/Photoshop, is it still advantageous to print in ABW mode (using an Epson 3800)? )I have an idea that the benefit of ABW is more about neutrality rather than a B&W conversion tool) If the answer is yes, would this still be true if I wasn't using a paper for which an ABW profile is available, or would I be better off then letting Photoshop manage colours using the correct printer/paper profile. Of course I can and will test this for myself, just wondered if there is an "official" view?
PS Just upgraded my Photoshop by 3 versions so playing with lots of new new toys in ACR!
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Yes, ABW is still a good idea. Longevity is better. DMax is better. Some people find getting a print/screen 'match' more difficult in ABW mode. Eric Chan has some terrific resources for printing with a 3800, including a collection of profiles he's created for use with ABW. Profiles with ABW? Yes, even though the Epson manual says not to.
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/abwprofiles.html
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Yes, Eric Chan's ABW profiles and his ABW workflow are superb, IMHO. I used to use QuadTone RIP for B&W with my old Epson 2200, but with my 3800 the ABW does a better job of it. And in case you are using a paper that Eric doesn't yet have a posted ABW profile for, you can order one from him for a very reasonable cost.
If you use his profiles for soft-proofing as I do, be sure to read and follow his workflow very carefully, as it is somewhat counter-intuitive in places (but works great if you follow it exactly).
I now have LR3.3 presets that do it all for me on my most frequently used papers.
Eric (M., not Chan)
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I wonder why Eric Chan did a profile for the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Canson baryta photographique when the are the same paper ?
Also I am wondering if anyone has tried his profiles on the R2880 since they have the same screening technology and ink ?
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I wonder why Eric Chan did a profile for the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Canson baryta photographique when the are the same paper ?
Also I am wondering if anyone has tried his profiles on the R2880 since they have the same screening technology and ink ?
At the time it was not known for certain that they are the same paper (and it still is somewhat murky). Can't answer the question on the 2880 as I sold mine and upgraded to the 3880. I did have Eric do some ABW profiles for me when I still had it and they worked well.
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One more point and this seems so obvious its a daft question really but I assume it is pointless using the split toning option in ACR if you are going to use ABW as the only tint you can achieve in ABW is one of its own options, which affect the whole image?
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One more point and this seems so obvious its a daft question really but I assume it is pointless using the split toning option in ACR if you are going to use ABW as the only tint you can achieve in ABW is one of its own options, which affect the whole image?
Pretty much yes. That’s the main downside (there are more upsides). Running through ABW will control the conversion such that your toning will not be honored. IF that’s critical, then you’d print in color mode with a good profile.
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I wonder why Eric Chan did a profile for the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Canson baryta photographique when the are the same paper ?
What makes you think they are the same paper?
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What makes you think they are the same paper?
Mark,
There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about this: see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49039.0 In my test of each paper, the results were pretty much identical to the eye and some of the spectro readings were also the same. I didn't do much more than that since I have been happy with IGFS and saw no reason to change papers (particularly when I still have almost a full box of 13x19 on hand).
Alan
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Mark,
There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about this: see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49039.0 In my test of each paper, the results were pretty much identical to the eye and some of the spectro readings were also the same. I didn't do much more than that since I have been happy with IGFS and saw no reason to change papers (particularly when I still have almost a full box of 13x19 on hand).
Alan
I hadn't seen that thread - I was tied-up in meetings abroad when all that was happening - so thanks for pointing it out. The two papers are about the same price these days here in Toronto. As for differences between the papers, quoting from Michael's review:
"The new Canson IBP is very similar to Ilford's GFS. I would say that the main thing that differentiates them is that IBP is slightly whiter and has a slightly more "present" micro-stipple than does GFS, making it look even closer to a traditional photo-chemical printing paper from the B&W world. Don't misunderstand. This is a smooth surface paper, and when looked at obliquely one can't see any "surface". But, when there is ink on it, especially blacks and dark tones, there is what looks like a micro-stipple – exactly what we used to see in Baryta photochemical papers. Hard to describe, but once you see it you'll know what I mean."
I too have observed that the Canson is slightly cooler than the Ilford, therefore looks "whiter". I'd be surprised if this were only due to batch variances. IGFS is a trademark of Ilford GmBH, Switzerland, but the paper, according to the box, is manufactured in Germany. I don't know how much of the manufacturing process occurs in Germany, nor do I have any such information on hand for the Canson paper. Perhaps someone who has a box on hand can find that information. But so far it seems to me these are very similar but not identical papers, perhaps explaining why Eric Chan made separate profiles for them.
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Good idea on sending large amounts of prints to a book binder mark (your site).
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Nigel
* ABW uses less of the colour inks (PK, LK, LLK, LM, LC no C or M at all, and a very small amount of Y), so theoretically the print will have better archival properties.
John
As Dano noted, it's more than just a theoretical outcome. An increase in lightfastness for ABW-mode printing and other monochrome printing methods has been confirmed in testing done by both Wilhelm Imaging Research and Aardenburg Imaging & Archives. The photo gray inks in the OEM Epson, Canon, and HP pigments sets are somewhat more lightfast than other colorants in the respective ink sets. Thus, monochrome prints that use proportionately greater amounts of the printer's photogray ink subset do often times exhibit more overall lightfastness than color prints made with the full ink set.
That said, there is one big caveat. It is much easier to detect OBA burnout and other sources of paper discoloration with monochrome images because the changing media color perceptually competes more strongly with the delicate highlights and mid tone hues in a neutral gray or near neutral image compared to a vivid color image. Thus, some B&W prints are more noticeably fade prone than their color counterparts when the media white properties are the weak link in the system.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Yes, Eric Chan's ABW profiles and his ABW workflow are superb, IMHO. I used to use QuadTone RIP for B&W with my old Epson 2200, but with my 3800 the ABW does a better job of it. And in case you are using a paper that Eric doesn't yet have a posted ABW profile for, you can order one from him for a very reasonable cost.
Presumably he would need a sample of the paper to do that. Many of the existing ABW profiles are for papers that are not available or are uncommon in Europe and I would want profiles for paper brands which as far as I know are not sold in the USA, i.e. Permajet (Museum Classic, Parchment Classic)and Fotospeed EG range.
Is it possible to create ABW profiles with a Color Munki?
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Presumably he would need a sample of the paper to do that. Many of the existing ABW profiles are for papers that are not available or are uncommon in Europe and I would want profiles for paper brands which as far as I know are not sold in the USA, i.e. Permajet (Museum Classic, Parchment Classic)and Fotospeed EG range.
Is it possible to create ABW profiles with a Color Munki?
Yes, see Keith Cooper's article on this here: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/bw_print_colormunki.html
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Presumably he would need a sample of the paper to do that.
What typically happens when you order a custom profile is that the person/service bureau making the profile sends you a target image via email or FTP with printing instructions. You print the target according to the instructions and use snail mail to send the target back to the service bureau. The target is then measured and a profile created. The profile is then sent to you via email.
John, Epson actually touted the ability to send a colour image to the printer via ABW and presto-magico-changeo you would get a beautiful b&w print. ::) There was a video with, if I recall, Schewe and Dan about ABW that included the 'send a colour image and magically get a wonderful b&w print with ABW'. What you got, if you tried it yourself was a blah, POS b&w print in which the colour image had been put through a canned conversion not dissimilar to the Desaturate or Image>Mode>Grayscale command in PS - at least based on my experiments with it.
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The best quality B&W output from the ABW Mode, that I have seen, is from colour files that have been converted first to B&W. The ABW Mode can convert a colour file into B&W but its a global average and tends to look flat. The sliders in the ABW Mode can be used to increase contrast and that maybe fine for entry level users, but for serious amateurs and professional print-makers convert first to B&W. In the videos I produced about the ABW Mode, the reccomendation for the highest quality was to always convert colour files to B&W then print via the ABW Mode.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Epson America, Inc.
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John, Epson actually touted the ability to send a colour image to the printer via ABW and presto-magico-changeo you would get a beautiful b&w print. ::) There was a video with, if I recall, Schewe and Dan about ABW that included the 'send a colour image and magically get a wonderful b&w print with ABW'. What you got, if you tried it yourself was a blah, POS b&w print in which the colour image had been put through a canned conversion not dissimilar to the Desaturate or Image>Mode>Grayscale command in PS - at least based on my experiments with it.
What was touted was the ability to use special ICC profiles to soft proof the ABW mode and to tweak the conversion PRIOR to actually sending it to the printer in ABW mode. Eric Chan even wrote about and gave away profiles to do just that.
I NEVER advocated sending color to the ABW mode willy-nilly without first understanding exactly HOW the ABW mode would modify your underlying color image to B&W.
If you are going to give me credit (or blame) for something it would be useful to be accurate in assessing the credit (or blame).
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There are B&W images in different formats, an R=G=B Tiff with a more or less 2.2 Gamma color space assigned; AdobeRGB, sRGB or a 1.8 Gamma; Colormatch, ProPhoto. The greyscale Tiff with different Gammas or dotgains assigned. And one could send a color image with profile or not right into ABW.
Then there is the possibility to convert the image file to a QTR printer profile or alike (Chan), depending on the application/OS you print from this conversion can be done at print time automatically or in a PS P2P conversion and after that through a CM-off path.
Not considering the better control one has in a PS channel conversion of color to B&W there is the other question: what ABW expects as the assigned profile and how it copes with the variations described above. Even if ABW didn't have any CM (not even a gamma check) an image with an assigned profile will be edited and the profile plays its role then. If you go for ABW then it is wiser to follow all the descriptions of a particular workflow to keep odd results limited.
BTW, it was Steve Kale who was the first to use QTR profiling for ABW printing. I guess 5 years ago on a 2400.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Spectral plots of +180 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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I have found this a very useful forum over the years, so I have finally stopped lurking and signed up. Having just got a satisfactory ABW workflow going on a new Epson 3880, I thought I would share what works for me.
Obviously reading Eric Chan's site is a good starting point (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html), and he helpfully gives a link to Giorgio Trucco's essential piece as well. The key points seem to be that the ABW driver is essentially grayscale, that the 'dark' setting is the most linear, and that a gamma of 2.2 is needed for the file you are printing.
For a non-ICC workflow, the following seems to work pretty well:
1 Convert your rgb file to grayscale in PS using the Gray Gamma 2.2 profile, then print
2 Choose ABW, set to 'dark'
3 Choose the appropriate paper in the driver
4 Set the print dialogue to 'Printer manages color'
What works best for me is an ICC workflow using QTR's CreateICC program. Create the ICC as follows:
1 Print the untagged 21-step target using ABW dark setting, appropriate paper setting, 'Printer manages color' (this works in CS5 in spite of the well-known issues with color targets)
2 Read the grayscale ramp to create an input file for CreateICC - PrintFix works great for doing this
3 Create a grayscale ICC (not RGB - this is important) and install
Then printing uses the following workflow, assuming that you have created a B&W rgb file:
1 Convert your rgb file to the Gray Gamma 2.2 profile
2 Set up ABW as above (dark setting, correct paper type)
3 Print using the ICC you created, choosing 'Perceptual' rendering (this is important - otherwise prints are too dark)
The ABW driver is actually pretty linear based on what CreateICC reports, so it is possible to get good prints without an ICC workflow. But the ICC gives you that much more accuracy - basically what I see on the screen is what I get on the print.
Hope this helps.
Kirk
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What was touted was the ability to use special ICC profiles to soft proof the ABW mode and to tweak the conversion PRIOR to actually sending it to the printer in ABW mode. Eric Chan even wrote about and gave away profiles to do just that.
I NEVER advocated sending color to the ABW mode willy-nilly without first understanding exactly HOW the ABW mode would modify your underlying color image to B&W.
If you are going to give me credit (or blame) for something it would be useful to be accurate in assessing the credit (or blame).
Oh, Jeff. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Maybe I was mistaken about who was in the video. I know that's a foreign concept to you but we mere mortals do make them. :-* I do remember a video, when ABW was introduced, wherein a colour image was sent through and the commentary was that via the magic of ABW a colour image could be turned into a terrific b&w print.
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Oh, Jeff. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
My panties are not bunched...but if you are gonna put words in my mouth at least do me the service of being accurate...you COULD have said "somebody" said something about printing RGB images to ABW mode directly without mentioning my name. You didn't...you mentioned ye name...so I responded to correct your memory.
I don't mind getting blamed for what I actually say but I draw the line at getting blamed for saying something I've never said. Ya know what I mean?
If you DO have accurate profiles for showing what the panchromatic response of the ABW mode does, then yes, you CAN soft proof the RGB color image and predict (and correct) for the way the ABW mode converts to B&W. That's actually useful. But it's pretty silly to convert from color to ABW mode willy-nilly and "hope" the color to B&W mode works.
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As I didn't have any of papers Eric Chan has produced ABW profiles for in A3, had to use profile for paper which I guessed might be similar (think I used VFA profile for Permajet Museum Classic) and prints were too dark. Now that's out of the way have tried some A4 papers that I had to hand. Used Ilford Gold Fibre Silk with Eric's profile and followed all settings, but still coming out too dark, to my eye. Can't figure ou why, will try some Harman matt as well.
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And just to add......I use ABW on all my monotone printing..it gives absolutely gorgeous warm tones and wonderful tonalities...but I never send a color image to it blindly...and I don't know why anyone would want to...I always want to see my rgb to bw conversion prior to printing. Eleanor
What was touted was the ability to use special ICC profiles to soft proof the ABW mode and to tweak the conversion PRIOR to actually sending it to the printer in ABW mode. Eric Chan even wrote about and gave away profiles to do just that.
I NEVER advocated sending color to the ABW mode willy-nilly without first understanding exactly HOW the ABW mode would modify your underlying color image to B&W.
If you are going to give me credit (or blame) for something it would be useful to be accurate in assessing the credit (or blame).
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Kirk, a couple of questions about your process for generating profiles for use with ABW:
1) When you initially load the untagged target, do you assign a profile to it (such as Gray Gama 2.2) or do you leave it "as is" (untagged).
2) When printing the target, you didn't mention setting any rendering intent... is this important when printing the target?
I'm also curious whether there is any substantial difference in profiles generated using a 21 step target vs a 51 step target.
I've been considering building my own ABW profiles (using Spyder3Print and the CreateICC tool in QTR), but figuring out exactly how to print the target in the first place has been a bit of a challenge.
Thanks!
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Used Ilford Gold Fibre Silk with Eric's profile and followed all settings, but still coming out too dark, to my eye. Can't figure ou why, will try some Harman matt as well.
Printing in ABW mode with Photoshop CS5 on Mac OS 10.6.5 would appear to be broken. For years I've been printing from CS3 on 10.5 through a linearization profile (same as Eric's workflow) but it doesn't give the correct results with CS5/10.6. Nor does there appear to be any means to print a grayscale target without conversion (Adobe's new utility didn't work for me for grayscale).