Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: fredjeang on December 04, 2010, 05:08:53 pm

Title: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: fredjeang on December 04, 2010, 05:08:53 pm: Guess who shooted the next Pirelli? Karl Lagarfeld. As a photograph this time.
He worked with Hasselblad and frankly for what I've seen, he did a great job based on mythology.

Well, I knew he was shooting, one day in Paris while he was still at Chanel he went crazy about a photographer, took the Pentax 645 and shooted the all campaing himself.

Maybe we are going to see Lagarfeld in the scene now, and he is prety good behind his superficial mascarade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65pp9qOMLo
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: KAHA on December 04, 2010, 11:28:18 pm: Karl Lagerfeld + High Fashion + Pirelli = Très Magnifique 8)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 05, 2010, 04:45:36 am: Thanks for the link, Fred; my first coffee of the day (I'm supposed to stay with one) is now twenty minutes late!

I also have a new favourite face: Bianca Balti!

There's something about Karl that I just can't stomach. It might be envy, but I think I could envy many others before him, so I'll discount that - but those silly gloves, that wearing of suits in a 'relax' tense situation, it all smacks of dischord to me and boy, does it work commercially!

The mythological theme has been done by Pirelli before: by Barry Lategan in '88 with balletic references; in '91 by Clive Arrowsmith with references to mythological historical characters and, again, by him in '92 with Chinese references of more in that manner.

It smacks of a ready-to-use solution, when the best (for me) remains the freestyle of Moon, Giacobetti and Feurer. More often than not, the others look to have have been too art directed, too stiff and totally in thrall to the aura of the big deal. Avedon produced great studio photography, as has Lagerfeld, but somehow, most miss the essence of soul that my first three choices had in abundance.

I think the job has simply outgrown the ability of most to come up with an honest version: it's all super-hype today, too much perfection. And that's deadly.

But, a great video for snappers to see!

Incidentally, was a time you could log on to the Pirelli calendar site and see the entire range; now, it's blocked without key codes... how sweet! Keep the peasants hungry at the door. Goodness me, do I need that first coffee!

Thanks again.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: yaya on December 05, 2010, 04:56:45 am: Spot the kit:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/15gqou9.jpg)

What's an S2 doing there?!
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Dustbak on December 05, 2010, 05:05:17 am: It is also a H with a P back in there.

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: yaya on December 05, 2010, 07:21:44 am: Quote from: Dustbak on December 05, 2010, 05:05:17 am
It is also a H with a P back in there.

Yes but those are for shooting:-)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Eric Kellerman on December 05, 2010, 01:53:59 pm: Oh dear me. Not promising, this Lagerfeld stuff. If only Pirelli had asked Serge Lutens to do a calendar based on Greek mythology, we might have seen something worthwhile.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: geesbert on December 05, 2010, 03:17:22 pm: I nearly puked onto my laptop when i heard Karl is the 'Einstein of high fashion". Does this girl really mean Albert Einstein, the theoretical physicist and philosopher or maybe Alfred Einstein, the musicologist?

another great moment is at around minute 8, when someone of the back entourage encourages Karl: 'That's beautiful art! Gorgeous, Karl!'
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: bcooter on December 05, 2010, 03:42:46 pm: Quote from: geesbert on December 05, 2010, 03:17:22 pm
Does this girl really mean Albert Einstein, the theoretical physicist and philosopher or maybe Alfred Einstein, the musicologist?

It always makes professional photographers angry when anyone steps into their world. A lot of it is justified, but Mr. Lagerfeld really isn't a photographer that is out there bidding on jobs, trying to make his bottom line off of photography.

Only him and his assistants really know what he brings to the room.

It doesn't really matter, but you can't deny his success in the cut throat world of fashion design.

The flip side is it's kind of sad to see the Pirelli Calender shot by a non photographer. It use to be reserved for the best few photographers in the world and celebrity status wasn't the only objective.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 05, 2010, 05:11:43 pm: I don't blame KL at all; if somebody makes the offer, why should he refuse? As I recall, he started doing fashion pics because he had a disagreement with Helmut Newton who was doing a shoot for him and, foolishly perhaps, suggested that if he didn't agree with the direction the pics were going, perhaps he should shoot his own? He did. This was many years ago, so he's been snapping for quite a while.

If there's a problem, and I believe there is, it must lie in Italy.

As I have mentioned before, I believe Pirelli lost the page when it abandoned Derek Forsyth many moons back and took on another AD; then, they returned to Forsyth, but once such a faith is broken, how do you repair something so fundamental? I no longer have any idea if Forsyth is still working, though he did have nice offices on Carlton Hill in London, NW8, not far from Abbey Road, as I recall from a long long time ago. He also used the break to do damned nice calendars for Mintex.

But the problem as I see it, apart from politics, is that the thing about themes is a helluva restriction on the work of a creative photographer. Themes are a way of selling the idea to the client, but after all these years I'd have imagined that within the Pirelli culture nothing needs selling to anyone any more; there is going to a calendar and that's that. The days of stopping the production for a while are also probably over. For God's sake, give your chosen snapper carte blanche for a change!

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: ziocan on December 06, 2010, 03:22:12 am: Quote from: fredjeang on December 04, 2010, 05:08:53 pm
G
Well, I knew he was shooting, one day in Paris while he was still at Chanel he went crazy about a photographer, took the Pentax 645 and shooted the all campaing himself.

Maybe we are going to see Lagarfeld in the scene now, and he is prety good behind his superficial mascarade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65pp9qOMLo
He still is at Chanel and it was a look book where he replaced a photographer, to be correct.
And he has shot with Phase a lot as well. There are plenty of back stage footage and also his last movie, shows him using Phase and Mamola body.
He has been in the scene as a photographer since the early 90ies, shooting for Vogue Paris, W and such, BTW.

It is ironic that Largelfield being someone that really knows what he is doing, he is very good at doing Chanel, Fendi and taking photos, but not very successful at designing his own collection.
I met him a couple of times and he is quite a nice person to deal with.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: ziocan on December 06, 2010, 03:35:54 am: I was involved as a consultant on a Pirelli calendar prod once, and I can see how they can take some odd decisions about photography and art these days.
Though they still are a nice company to deal with.

Michael Janson and Mario Sorrenti are IMO, two of the current photographers who are suitable for a Pirelli, but I'm afraid they still are too young for being considered established artist by Italian standards.LOL

Next year Pirelli will be putting shoes on the Formula 1 and GP2 cars on both world championships.
That is what they are good at, let's see if they will be up to their tradition.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on December 06, 2010, 04:46:40 am: I wish Pirelly would hire Leonard Nimoy.

Image linked from: http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Nimoy/MaxBeaut/8.htm

(http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Nimoy/MaxBeaut/Zz303.jpg)
Three Graces
The Full Body Project
Leonard Nimoy
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: DanielStone on December 06, 2010, 01:36:08 pm: Quote from: Christoph C. Feldhaim on December 06, 2010, 04:46:40 am
I wish Pirelly would hire Leonard Nimoy.
(http://www.rmichelson.com/Artist_Pages/Nimoy/MaxBeaut/Zz303.jpg)
Three Graces
The Full Body Project
Leonard Nimoy

Talk about TIRES ;), that photograph will get the point across :)

-Dan
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: feppe on December 06, 2010, 04:51:29 pm: Oh no, a non-pro getting paid for photographs! I couldn't care less if the photos were taken by a monkey, as long as they're good.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 06, 2010, 05:39:04 pm: Trouble is, I was going to have an early night but got hooked here...

Thanks for an enjoyable link!

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: fredjeang on December 06, 2010, 05:43:32 pm: Quote from: Rob C on December 06, 2010, 05:39:04 pm
Trouble is, I was going to have an early night but got hooked here...

Thanks for an enjoyable link!

Rob C
Same happened to me
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: uaiomex on December 06, 2010, 10:41:26 pm: He's not a bad photographer. I'd say he's quite good. What bothers me is what best photographers can do better being snatched by someone who makes 100 times more money for his connections (most likely).
Eduardo
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: amsp on December 07, 2010, 02:06:19 am: I'll admit that it pisses me off when celebs use their money and connections to take away work from more deserving people who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art and get to the point they're at. There's been a whole bunch of people like this in photography lately. It's not too hard making good photographs when money is no issue and you can pay the best talent to do everything but snap the picture for you, that's why it's even more disappointing that Karl's photos for Pirelli are mediocre at best.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: ctz on December 07, 2010, 04:29:01 am: Quote from: amsp on December 07, 2010, 02:06:19 am
it's even more disappointing that Karl's photos for Pirelli are mediocre at best.

+1!
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: fredjeang on December 07, 2010, 05:58:37 am: Quote from: amsp on December 07, 2010, 02:06:19 am
I'll admit that it pisses me off when celebs use their money and connections to take away work from more deserving people who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art and get to the point they're at. There's been a whole bunch of people like this in photography lately. It's not too hard making good photographs when money is no issue and you can pay the best talent to do everything but snap the picture for you, that's why it's even more disappointing that Karl's photos for Pirelli are mediocre at best.
Gentlemen, I understand the reactions but I'd like to disagree based in my limited experience in big prod. At least trying to open a different path. What basically pisses you off is seeing a clientelism. But to be honest you are painting the photographic pro world as a ideal craftmenship where the poor masters are spoiled by naughty well positionned stars that would not deserve best the part of the cake.
In short, they are robed by mediocre talents. (like a model sundenly become a singer).
Let me tell you that the professional photographic world stinks like politics. Yes what you are saying happens and always happened, this is not new. Now... the same think also happens inside the profession itself. We are not in wonderland at all. It's competitive, unfriendly, disorganised and sometimes talented. Sometimes right? 90% at least of the profession is pretentious and average. I do not see the world you are describing, but I might be then on the wrong places. Possibly...or not.

Do you really think that the most talented photographers in the world today are the one who really do the most important assignments? The practise you criticize are actually the common practises I'm seeing in the photo stratosphere. It's all about relation and a little about talent, knowledge and creativity. All they have to do is technically reliable, wich can be done (and wich is done) by the army of assistants.
The super all pros you are talking about are just framing and pressing the shutter, basically. But IMO this is the key question.

What you consider mediocre at best sounds in a way, without provocative intention, pretentious. I mean, it sounds like Robin Woods who defends the "real" photographers, but how many "real pros" are actually understanding and more importantly feeling in their bones, what fashion is about? How many super pros have real knowledge from inside the houses?

We could define or redefine what an outstanding work is about. IMO, there are too many fashion photographers who simply do not know a lot about fashion, or couture. Anybody, included me, included you, included G. Bush, would obtain honorable results with the top teams and models involved. Anybody. I was smiling when I saw the Peter Lindberg movie where he does not even care or bother about settings etc...assistants are doing it for him while he's shooting. But he is the one who frames, choose the lightning and press the button. But if the moment you press the button is disconnected to the goal, to the brand essence etc...then there is no good photographer.

To me the good photographer is not the one who has 2000 years experience and have passed by all the required steps (that is the profile of a top assistant) but the one who understand and anticipate the momentum the shutter has to be pressed, and it does not have to have specially very high technical skills. History gave us example of those many times. As someone said, it could be a monkey if surrowded by a great tech team.

All you have to have is vision, and that, is not the privilege of a little group called photographer.

IMO.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on December 07, 2010, 06:36:10 am: Commerce <> Art
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Gigapixel on December 07, 2010, 07:09:45 am: Quote from: fredjeang on December 07, 2010, 05:58:37 am

people who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art and get to the point they're at is a vaste group, most of those guys totally unknown and fighting to pay their bills.
Who are those people then? How do we define them? What are the paremeters to have the supreme privilege to belong to that selected club? that really knows what the craft is about. I don't know what you are talking about, I don't see such a thing. All I see is politician's mentality in commercial photography. In what those "masters" differ from the unknown really good photographer that also spent his entire life dedicated to the craft with passion and talent? I look arround everywhere and don't see any trace of what you are talking about.

+1

"Experience means nothing. One can do his tasks badly for 35 years." (Kurt Tucholsky; free translation)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on December 07, 2010, 07:56:26 am: Time spent <> Experience

Some people never learn - some people learn very fast ....
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Frits on December 07, 2010, 08:01:56 am: Quote from: Gigapixel on December 07, 2010, 07:09:45 am
+1

"Experience means nothing. One can do his tasks badly for 35 years." (Kurt Tucholsky; free translation)
Right on! ;D
BTW, I really enjoyed watching this. I for one do believe that Karl is a bit of an icon in the fashion industry. Photography is also more than just a passing thing for him, not to say that he could rival top professionals of course.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Dustbak on December 07, 2010, 10:19:12 am: I cannot believe some of the negativity towards KL. The images? Maybe you like them or maybe not. Quality of photography is from a certain level very subjective say whatever you like but he is doing the things most of us can only dream of. He also has more insight and feeling for fashion than probably all of us here which is why he has been on top of the industry for so long. Whatever you think of him, his designs or his photography nobody can deny he has been very successful.

I wish I could look back in 35 years and see that I have accomplished something similar. Still working on it, but for now I rather keep my mouth shut instead of putting his work down.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 07, 2010, 11:54:02 am: I think Fred's long post says much, but I also think that we have to be careful what we think defines fashion photography. Even a broad definition of just pictures of new clothes is far from simple; there are at least two main, and huge, differences in what's called fashion photography: editorial and advertising.

My own experience in fashion lasted from, say, '66 until the late 70s, by which time the local scene had almost vanished - well, as a money spinner, that is. It wasn't simply that I was replaced, it was that companies went out of business, some abandoned their Scottish factories in last-ditch attempts to survive by moving manufacture to Hong Kong, which killed them as surely as if they'd stayed at home. They, as most businesses, couldn't buck the financial problems making themselves felt at the time.

I did quite well out of advertising fashion photography; magazine stuff (advertising), including Vogue, paid very little, even for multi-page shoots that I did around Europe. It was far more profitable to forget the lure of the magazines and work for the local guys actually selling something. And money is what keeps you in business.

When I was doing it, advertising fashion was strictly see-every-stitch and make sure that size ten girl can wear that size 14 sample. The irony was, I got work because of my portfolio which was intended to look 'editorial' but I was seldom allowed to work that way for money. Which is understandable, in the end. The people selling want to show all that they can to the woman flicking through the magazine or walking past the display stand in the shop. Also, I have met no photographer who gives a shit about fashion in the sense of the mainstream clothes he shoots; any single one that I knew was into the women and the far out stuff that had not a lot to do with what walks down the High Street on its way to lunch.

I guess that many of us might envy KL's success in money terms, but do we really want his job? I sure wouldn't! So-called editorial styles of shooting were very seldom used in my world - one saved all that for model test sessions and portfolios, proving one was always hopeful despite a fairly cool grasp on the reality.

Trust me, it was no pain moving sideways into calendar production, and much more profitable for a few years.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 07, 2010, 05:13:02 pm: Johannes

Don't know about owning banks, but in my experience, as above, magazines thought photographers should pay them; I remember watching Jocelyn Stevens, publisher of Queen magazine, speaking on tv - I think about Patrick Lichfield, but I could be mistaken which snapper - and saying that he never paid more than a couple of notes for prints because the shooters got so much publicity... It's all business, that's why people get angry and confused when they lose track of this vital fact.

Being an amateur has no bearing on being good or bad as a photographer, other than in specialized situations where the amateur might not have the knowledge needed.

The contribution of a good model, good with the particular photographer, is crucial.

Galleries do expect a commission - how else can they keep the business going? It is a business. It seems there are no set conditions - it varies from place to place.

Wikileaks. I would shoot the mother.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Alex MacPherson on December 07, 2010, 07:33:20 pm: I quite like Karl Lagerfeld. One thing a good fashion photographer needs to do is understand fashion. Karl has that one
wrapped up. I think he has a good eye for photography too.

We were all non-photographers once... don't be hatin' on Uncle Karl. ;D
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 08, 2010, 04:02:21 am: Quote from: fredjeang on December 07, 2010, 07:26:23 pm

- Pro photographers work (almost) for free for magazines and hope for paid jobs in advertising?
if photography collective was less stupidly selfish and competitive and organised like cine industry it would not happen so easily

That, Fred, has been a sort of Holy Grail, but the personality failings prevent us from taking advantage of something the air traffic controllers in Spain understand very well: collective might! The difference, of course, is that nobody else can do their job... if I had gone on strike perhaps my wife might have noticed, but the competition would have laughed all the way to my clients' laps.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Fritzer on December 08, 2010, 11:20:14 am: Quote from: Alex MacPherson on December 07, 2010, 07:33:20 pm
I quite like Karl Lagerfeld. One thing a good fashion photographer needs to do is understand fashion. Karl has that one
wrapped up. I think he has a good eye for photography too.

We were all non-photographers once... don't be hatin' on Uncle Karl. ;D

I think KL is a pretty cool guy, just a lousy photographer .
But he got another gig, he's getting away with his act, more power to him ! ;)

His Pirelli shots are mediocre in any respect, superficial concept and boring execution, I don't see how that could be up for discussion, but that's not the point, it's just a fashion world thing .
I was cringing a little though, when in the video, KL linked Roman and Greek mythology to Italian history.
He even called himself the 'visual Homer' , can you believe it ? ;)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 08, 2010, 02:35:16 pm: Well, I don't think it's KL alone who falls on his face with Pirelli, if indeed he has.

Any brief study of the series post Feurer will reveal that as many emperors have been stripped of their photo credentials as have models of their knickers.

I can't think of one later 'name' who has survived the jink of that calendar. I wish I knew what or who is to blame; whether there is terrible interference with the photography, whether the photographers allow themselves to become intimidated by the opportunity.

Since your guess is at least a good as mine, here's mine: the idea of a theme gets pushed to the company in an effort to show that they, the people making the pitch, are amazingly cultured and have something unique to offer Pirelli. Then, once accepted, they find themselves crippled by the preconceived monster they have created for themselves. Maybe they become dependent on the same story boards that get to shape movies, exactly what happened with the disaster by poor old, late, Duffy: he thought he'd been given ideas for interpretation by himself, whereas it turned out they were exactly what he had been meant to shoot! Madre de Dios. Come to think of it, I'm sure that KL video of 'making of' did show the orchestra consulting drawings...

An artistic calendar? By numbers?

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 09, 2010, 10:13:24 am: Quote from: fredjeang on December 08, 2010, 07:12:57 pm
Why don't we make a Lu-La calendar?

You want Michael to faint?

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: BenNorton on December 13, 2010, 10:48:30 am: Quote from: Fritzer on December 08, 2010, 11:20:14 am
He even called himself the 'visual Homer' , can you believe it ? ;)
(http://www.keithreel.com/homer_camera.gif)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 13, 2010, 01:20:34 pm: Quote from: BenNorton on December 13, 2010, 10:48:30 am
(http://www.keithreel.com/homer_camera.gif)

Careful; you might replace Mr P as the king of one-liners!

Where is Dark, anyway, haven't read a line of his in zonks! I assume it is a 'he', but with penguins, you never can tell; even their mothers get confused.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Czornyj on December 15, 2010, 06:16:17 pm: Quote from: Fritzer on December 08, 2010, 11:20:14 am
He even called himself the 'visual Homer' , can you believe it ? ;)

I think it proves he really has a sense of humor - Homer was blind ;)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 17, 2010, 03:39:24 pm: Quote from: Czornyj on December 15, 2010, 06:16:17 pm
I think it proves he really has a sense of humor - Homer was blind ;)

That really surprises me; I've seen bits of the show on tv from time to time - only bits - but nothing indicated blindness. Guess it would be politically incorrect for family viewing to make it obvious...

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: sid_v on December 18, 2010, 02:02:06 am: All this talk about KL understands fashion like no other, makes me wonder why nudity is considered fashion. ???
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: fredjeang on December 18, 2010, 07:38:56 am: Quote from: sid_v on December 18, 2010, 02:02:06 am
All this talk about KL understands fashion like no other, makes me wonder why nudity is considered fashion. ???
You are right, it is not at all.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 18, 2010, 02:25:59 pm: But Pirelli has nothing to do with fashion.

If, on the other hand, you meant nudity in fashion magazines, you are forgetting that there is indeed a fashion element in body shapes. It takes a little longer than a couple of seasons to make itself felt, but it's there all right!

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Alex MacPherson on December 18, 2010, 03:12:14 pm: I like the Lavazza Calendars too

http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html (http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html)
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: sid_v on December 18, 2010, 03:20:14 pm: Quote from: Rob C on December 18, 2010, 02:25:59 pm
But Pirelli has nothing to do with fashion.

Rob C

The Pirelli calender does. How else can you explain that they hire the worlds best Fashion/Celebrity portrait photographers all these years for the calendar. Never seen an advertising or fine art, landscape/architecture photographer shoot for them.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: sid_v on December 18, 2010, 03:23:12 pm: Quote from: Alex MacPherson on December 18, 2010, 03:12:14 pm
I like the Lavazza Calendars too

http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html (http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html)

Lavazza shoots with mainly advertising photographers and sometimes a fashion photographer here and there. Their calendar promotes their brand in weird artistic ways.

You never see a pirelli logo or a tyre in their calendar.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: ziocan on December 18, 2010, 09:46:58 pm: Quote from: Alex MacPherson on December 18, 2010, 03:12:14 pm
I like the Lavazza Calendars too

http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html (http://www.lavazza.com/corporate/en/lavazzastyle/calendars/2011.html)

OMG. Those are so tacky that is not even funny.....
When I see one of them, I always wonder who is the moron picking the cheesy concepts.
enough said.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: ziocan on December 18, 2010, 09:50:41 pm: Quote from: sid_v on December 18, 2010, 03:20:14 pm
The Pirelli calender does. How else can you explain that they hire the worlds best Fashion/Celebrity portrait photographers all these years for the calendar. Never seen an advertising or fine art, landscape/architecture photographer shoot for them.
Indeed they do.
Having consulted once for their team, I can assure they have a lot to do with fashion.
The people involved on the artistic side of the project, are mostly coming from the fashion industry.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 19, 2010, 05:54:26 am: If I may answer both Sid and Zio at the same time: the use of fashion photographers has nothing to do with fashion; it has everything to do with the hope that a fashion photographer will understand the difference between artistic nudity/topless/semi-dressed that a simple tit'n'ass specialist might not.

It was exactly the reason why I had succes with calendars: I came from a fashion photography background and that gave the ability (or it was always there) to work with and understand women a little bit, particularly to understand femininity which is a whole lot different a thing from top-shelf magazines.

Fashion, per se, had nothing to do with it (Pirelli). It was all about attitude, and that wasn't fashion as it's understood. However, if you are willing to change your statements to 'fashion photographer biased', then I agree totally.

However, there's a caveat: many of the top fashion guys have, in my personal view, fallen flat on their faces with the Pirelli calendar; because you may have some good taste doesn't mean you can also satisfy a wider audience. It would be invidious to name names, but take a look at the latest collected sets that have been published - I have two different ones - and you will rapidly see that a zillion covers of Vogue doesn't stop you failing.

But hey, believe as the mood takes you, it's Christmas and the season for charity!

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: JamieA on December 23, 2010, 02:24:21 pm: As already mentioned Lagerfeld has been doing photography for a long time. I think his fashion stuff is ok while his 'art' is really crap.

Photography (with a few exceptions) is mostly about knowing what you like and what you don't like. Lagerfeld doesn't have to know the technicalities of lighting as long as he knows what kind of lighting he wants and has the right assistants who can achieve his vision. I don't think that makes him any less of a photographer.

As for the fashion vs. nude photography debate, if one looks at high end fashion magazines (not clothing/gossip mags for women) one can see that it's rarely about clothes. It's more about conveying a certain aesthetic.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 23, 2010, 04:43:27 pm: Quote from: JamieA on December 23, 2010, 02:24:21 pm
As already mentioned Lagerfeld has been doing photography for a long time. I think his fashion stuff is ok while his 'art' is really crap.

Photography (with a few exceptions) is mostly about knowing what you like and what you don't like. Lagerfeld doesn't have to know the technicalities of lighting as long as he knows what kind of lighting he wants and has the right assistants who can achieve his vision. I don't think that makes him any less of a photographer.As for the fashion vs. nude photography debate, if one looks at high end fashion magazines (not clothing/gossip mags for women) one can see that it's rarely about clothes. It's more about conveying a certain aesthetic. [/quote

I have great trouble with accepting the first point, if it's based on fact;
I agree with the second;
Karl couldn't give a damn what we think. Were I he, then neither would I.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Alex MacPherson on December 23, 2010, 08:30:26 pm: I wouldn't think Karl would be where he is today if he gave a damn what anyone thinks.

He is so unique... and that is his charm.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: JamieA on December 24, 2010, 06:32:40 am: Quote from: Rob C on December 23, 2010, 04:43:27 pm
Quote from: JamieA on December 23, 2010, 02:24:21 pm
As already mentioned Lagerfeld has been doing photography for a long time. I think his fashion stuff is ok while his 'art' is really crap.

Photography (with a few exceptions) is mostly about knowing what you like and what you don't like. Lagerfeld doesn't have to know the technicalities of lighting as long as he knows what kind of lighting he wants and has the right assistants who can achieve his vision. I don't think that makes him any less of a photographer.As for the fashion vs. nude photography debate, if one looks at high end fashion magazines (not clothing/gossip mags for women) one can see that it's rarely about clothes. It's more about conveying a certain aesthetic.

I have great trouble with accepting the first point, if it's based on fact;
I agree with the second;
Karl couldn't give a damn what we think. Were I he, then neither would I.

Rob C

I don't know how much or how little Lagerfeld knows about the technicalities of lighting and photography. He's been doing it for close to 20 years so I'm sure he picked up a few tricks along the way. My point is that some (I said 'most' in the previous post which was probably a bit exaggerated) photography is a lot like being a movie director. A movie director has a DoP, a Gaffer, a best boy, make-up, costume designer, set designer, etc. etc. and they all get hired for their ability to achieve the directors vision. The end product is a result of everyone's effort but it's still the director's name after the "A film by". Why? Because the director made the executive creative decisions. It's the same with fashion photography. A photographer doesn't have to know anything about actually putting make-up or clothes on a model but he has to know what he likes and what he doesn't so he can give directions. The same goes for lighting and retouching. Some photographers like to do it themselves whereas others just know where to find the right people to do it for them. As long as they make the actual creative decisions it's still their work.
Fashion photography is and always has been a team sport with the photographer being the captain. Other areas of photography like reportage, documentary, landscape etc. are more like one-man sports.
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 24, 2010, 09:41:49 am: Thanks for the lesson on fashion photography; I have actually done a little of it, starting in '66 and getting as far as doing several trips for British Vogue, but that was a while ago... maybe the leopard has indeed just changed its spots.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Erick Boileau on December 24, 2010, 11:38:36 am: the girls are skinny with androgynous faces ... nothing for me
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 24, 2010, 03:28:26 pm: Quote from: erickb on December 24, 2010, 11:38:36 am
the girls are skinny with androgynous faces ... nothing for me

I'm sure that Natalia Vodianova, Karolina Kurkova, Giselle Bundchen, Laetitia Casta, Heidi Klum, Naomi Campbell, Yamila Diaz-Rahi, Cindy Crawford et al would be amazed to discover they were skinny and/or had unfeminine faces.

Whatever standards or definitions you employ must be fairly unique, and if you were referring only to the current Pirelli, well, I can't say that Bianca Balti looks particularly unfeminine and Isabeli Fontana has enough calendar mileage under her narrow belt to prove her credentials too.

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Erick Boileau on December 24, 2010, 03:29:48 pm: I mean ... Monica Bellucci is a woman not something you are not sure
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Rob C on December 24, 2010, 03:36:23 pm: Quote from: erickb on December 24, 2010, 03:29:48 pm
I mean ... Monica Bellucci is a woman not something you are not sure

Yes, and so are the others I mentioned. But Monica is an actress - she might have been fooling us all, including Avedon.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Pirelli calendar 2011
Post by: Erick Boileau on December 24, 2010, 03:37:45 pm: :D