Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Aristoc on November 19, 2010, 02:28:27 pm

Title: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 19, 2010, 02:28:27 pm
I can't find a  conclusion to my question.  

Is it true that if you resample an image in PS before printing to say 300 ppi and hit print, then the epson driver is going to interpolate and actually use 360 ppi ?

Some have said that this is true and that for best quality you should set your resolution, when resampling in PS to either 360 or 720 ppi and not use anything else below or in between. the place where the 360 and 720 comes from is that if you select the 'finest detail' setting in the epson printer driver window that the 720ppi will be used. if the 'finest detail' is unchecked then 360ppi will be used no matter what you set it too in PS. This has something to do with the way the epson printer drivers work.


True or False?
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: BradFunkhouser on November 19, 2010, 02:58:50 pm
I took a close look at this years ago.  My question was whether I could actually see better fine detail (given a good quality image) if I resampled in Photoshop and always sent 360ppi to the printer.  The answer was a definite yes.  This was true whether the image needed upsampling or downsampling.  Letting the driver resample to 360ppi gave visibly lower quality.  But that was back on a 1280, and I haven't ever retested with 4000, 7600, 9800, 9900.

Since then, for consistency, I've always done my own sizing to 360ppi before sending any file to an Epson.



Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 19, 2010, 03:08:48 pm
Thanks Brad. This is very very strange to me as I have had some tutorials where the photographer said that for regular desk top ink jet printing with 6 or more carts, you are safe to send the printer no more than 300ppi to maintain image quality. Smaller resolution of about 240 ppi is acceptable for larger images.

I thought that in photoshop, you should therefore set your ppi to no more than 300. If you send more than 300 than it is not that necessary and might affect the time to print the image etc etc. This was from a lynda.com tutorial for CS5 with Ben Long.

Anyway for anyone interested in getting in on this, please read the following nikonians pdf file. Especailly page 19,20 and especially at the top of page 21. IT seems to say to set you resolution in photoshop to 360. In otherwords. not 300 as I have learned so far.

http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/reference_library/epson/print_quality_how_to_cure.pdf


What all this apparantly means is that if you set something to other resolutions in photoshop, then the printer driver is going to throw that out and do it's own interpolation and change it to 360. Apparently you dont want the printer to do this because it doesn't do it as good as PS. SO better to set it to 360 in PS. IS this true ?

(by the way I am talking about Epson. In particular I have the R2880).
Anyone else ?
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 19, 2010, 03:30:12 pm
I can't find a  conclusion to my question.  

Is it true that if you resample an image in PS before printing to say 300 ppi and hit print, then the epson driver is going to interpolate and actually use 360 ppi ?

Depending on the printer and paper choice (and other driver settings), Epson printers usually resample to 720 PPI whatever PPI you throw at them. Since the printer driver's resampling method is unknown (it apparently used to be something like bilinear), I prefer doing the resampling with a better algorithm, and then sharpen for output.

Canon and HP printers usually resample to 600 PPI native resolution with glossy paper.

The rationale behind it that it's easier for the printer driver to optimize the dithering, and weaving, and what have you, for a known source PPI. Whether the printer driver does some sharpening after resampling to its native resolution is unknown, but you can do it if you resample yourself.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: BradFunkhouser on November 19, 2010, 03:33:18 pm
After doing my test, I eventually purchased ImagePrint and found that the ImagePrint driver has you choose either 180ppi or 360ppi.  They'll do the resampling for you, using bicubic interpolation.  Though for consistency, I still always size to 360ppi myself in Photoshop.

Thanks for the link.  A quote from their paper...  "When printing an image at only 180ppi, there is a risk of losing some sharpness in the final print.  However this should not be a problem for very large prints since the viewing distance is further."

I generally agree, but I have to laugh as well, because many times I have seen my artist customers craning their necks to inspect (from 4 inches away) the level of detail in one of my 40" x 60" prints.

- Brad



Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: NikoJorj on November 19, 2010, 03:37:36 pm
True or False?
You can test that on you own : http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/01/how-sharp-is-your-printer-how-sharp-are-your-eyes.html

I personally didn't find any useful gain to set the LR interpolation at 360dpi with my R1800.
However I agree that 180dpi is less than the optimal.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 19, 2010, 03:41:02 pm
Brad I have heard about imageprint in eric chans web site about his 3880 but i have little knowledge about that program yet.

Bart above has said epson usually uses 720. So here again is another number that is not consistant. 720 is double the 360 and I think that I read in eric chans site about his 3880 that if you check of the tick box that says 'finest detail' , the the 720 ppi resolution is used by the printers driver. If you leave that tick box unchecked, then it just uses 360ppi.

I guess what I am trying to figure out really is , what image resolution should I set in PS before I send to my printer ? (180 ?  360 ?   300 ?)  and why ?. And, what is the 'finest detail setting' really going to do ?
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: BradFunkhouser on November 19, 2010, 03:55:35 pm
I haven't ever tested 360ppi versus 720ppi.

720ppi hasn't been an option for me as I've been using ImagePrint for quite a while, and there was no talk of 720ppi when I last used the Epson driver.

But with my new 9900, I've evaluating the Epson driver capabilities versus ImagePrint, so I need to look into the possibility of getting finer details with the Epson driver by sending it 720ppi.  Interesting.

I imagine that those finer details would be visible primarily with papers that hold tight dot patterns, like glossy photo, or high gloss film.

- Brad
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 19, 2010, 04:25:19 pm
I imagine that those finer details would be visible primarily with papers that hold tight dot patterns, like glossy photo, or high gloss film.

Hi Brad,

That's correct. Also, output sharpening at 720PPI will boost all high spatial frequency detail. The radius used determines the frequencies that benefit the most, but a small radius will also lift other/lower frequencies. Because you can use a higher amount at the pixel level, you also influence more of the lower frequencies, something that non-glossy paper would also benefit from. It also opens possibilities for again masking out smooth areas if needed, and or adding very fine noise.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Farmer on November 19, 2010, 05:17:56 pm
Depending on the printer and paper choice (and other driver settings), Epson printers usually resample to 720 PPI whatever PPI you throw at them.

Only for the consumer-grade printers.  The pro range are 360 unless you set the driver to "finest detail" in which case it changes to 720, which is really only useful for vectors, although some very fine lines in a photograph may benefit but only if you have enough detail to begin with.

A lot of people claim to be able to tell the difference by looking at the images, but without a loupe I doubt it in most cases.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 19, 2010, 05:27:05 pm

I guess what I am trying to figure out really is , what image resolution should I set in PS before I send to my printer ? (180 ?  360 ?   300 ?)  and why ?. And, what is the 'finest detail setting' really going to do ?

If you do your own resizing, using 180/240/360/720 would probably be the best, although most of the time just sending the image data at it's native size and allowing the printer driver to resize as part of the screening/dithering process will yield very good results. Personally I print almost exclusively from Lightroom, because the biggest challenge is resizing and sharpening correctly which just works with LR 3.

As far as 'finest detail' ... don't use it for photographs.  Here is a quote from the user manuals

Finest Detail for sharper edges on vector-based data including text, graphics, and line art.  (This setting does not affecdt photographs and is not recommended for large files).
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: gromit on November 19, 2010, 05:36:52 pm
As far as 'finest detail' ... don't use it for photographs.  Here is a quote from the user manuals

Finest Detail for sharper edges on vector-based data including text, graphics, and line art.  (This setting does not affecdt photographs and is not recommended for large files).

How does the driver differentiate between vector/text/line art and photographs? Answer: it doesn't.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Christopher on November 19, 2010, 06:14:23 pm
I would probably say still to leave it off. Even though I have't tested it.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: deanwork on November 19, 2010, 10:48:54 pm
Well if you are determined to think that sending 720 to the printer is going to help you with small photographs ( for large prints the file size is out of the question) then do a quick test on your favorite gloss paper using your sharpest photo file, well sharpened, and see for yourself. I don't think you can see any difference with your eyes. But if you do, then go for it. I agree that proper file handling and output sharpening is the more significant variable.

My procedure is to use the best you can SEE for gloss papers, and for matte media you can get away with what is practical file size wise, often less than the "native" resolution.

Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: langier on November 19, 2010, 11:05:18 pm
Simple solution and a simple test:

Take your favorite file.

Resample downward and save: as a 90 dpi, 180 dpi, 240 dpi, 300 dpi, 360 dpi, 480 dpi, 600 dpi, and 720 dpi files and print each at the same size, say an 8x10 sample of each file. Mark on the back the res you did and put them away overnight. Next day shuffle them take a look and see what you think is the best.

You'll then know which res works best for you with your printer, workflow, files, and paper choice.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 20, 2010, 04:05:54 am
Well if you are determined to think that sending 720 to the printer is going to help you with small photographs ( for large prints the file size is out of the question) then do a quick test on your favorite gloss paper using your sharpest photo file, well sharpened, and see for yourself.

Indeed. That is when so many people experience such an increase in quality by printing with Qimage. Even some on a MAC platform go through the trouble of running it via Parallels, or setting up a dedicated Windows system to handle the printing needs. The benefits outweigh the initial hassle.

The better upsampling quality, plus the automatic sharpening after the resampling, plus the fact that there is no need for a resampled file copy, makes for an efficient printing workflow. This becomes even more evident when printing different sizes  of the same file, perhaps on roll paper where Qimage will also take care of the nesting to save paper. Qimage feeds the printer spool file just the data that's needed as it's created, so no need to create a gigantic output file first. It's only limited by the speed of your printer, and the maximum output size of the printer driver, if there is a hardcoded one. There are even ways to overcome those size limitations ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on November 20, 2010, 08:29:12 am
Maybe Jeff Schewe can weigh in.  In the newest LuLa LR tutorial he notes that images can now be printed at 720 in contrast to the previous advice.  I can't remember if he was speaking about images from MF cameras or the smaller DSLRs.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: NikoJorj on November 20, 2010, 09:31:30 am
In the newest LuLa LR tutorial he notes that images can now be printed at 720 in contrast to the previous advice. 
As far as I've understood, the main difference is that LR3 can now send up to 720dpi to the printer, and he said it could be useful in some cases (don't remember which, but I'd guess images with very fine linear detail from my personal experiments based on Ctein's article hereabove).
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: deanwork on November 20, 2010, 12:01:40 pm
Yea, I agree, and that is why I use a PC just for output so I can use Q-Image. It is an amazing program for the money. Lightroom is also excellent.

I prefer Q-Image personally, especially for upsizing digital slr files. I've done a lot of things 40x60 from files of Canon 5DM2 and IDS files on semi-gloss media and I was totally impressed when I first started using Q-Image for that kind of thing.....sending the file over there at like 150 ppi and letting it resample for output.

One thing though to watch out for, you can easily over sharpen if you get carried away with cranking the output sharpening slider option. I do tests on a swatch of the big file to observe the edge sharpening results. This is not something that can really be seen on a screen.

john
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Schewe on November 20, 2010, 01:05:36 pm
Maybe Jeff Schewe can weigh in.  In the newest LuLa LR tutorial he notes that images can now be printed at 720 in contrast to the previous advice.  I can't remember if he was speaking about images from MF cameras or the smaller DSLRs.

Yes, Lightroom 3 can now upsample to a max of 720PPI and then output sharpen. It was put in because, well, I could get better output from my P65+ images in Photoshop because there I COULD keep the native resolution of the file and output at the dimensions I wanted. Lightroom 2 capped the resolution to 480PPI. So, yeah I kinda got the engineer working on the LR Print module to increase the cap to 720PPI.

As for why? If the native resolution of your file is above 480PPI at the final print size (and this will depend on your camera and print size) it's silly to waste the resolution and force a downsample (which softens) and then have to output sharpen.

Also, what I have found in my own work is that if the native resolution of your image is on the low side of the old 180-480PPI range Bruce Fraser said was useful, adding about 50% in pixel density (upsampling) can help the print when printing from Lightroom. You can do the same thing in Photoshop as well but it's not as easy/efficient. So if your image was at 200PPI at the final print dimension adding 50% (100PPI) in Lightroom would produce a better result for high frequency texture and certain high contrast diagonals or curves...

What I have not found is that taking an image with the low end of the resolution range and upsampling to 720PPI producing a consistently better result.

And taking image's whose resolution is already on the high side (360PPI and above) will not get much benefit at all. Upsampling to 720PPI won't hurt anything...but the returns do diminish. And, you are pushing a lot more pixels which means slower spooling although the actual printing speeds seem about the same.

This all presumes Epson printers like the 2880/3880 and higher. If you are printing to Canon or HP, the numbers to hit would be 600PPI not 720PPI.

I still believe in Bruce's old 180-480PPI range as being able to produce good printed output on inkjet printers...but printers, resampling and output sharpening have improved since he did his trial and error tests a few years ago. So, for images whose native resolution is already over 480PPI, don't downsample. For images on the low end of the range, some images can be improved by adding 50% or so. I do think it's important for people to avoid doing arbitrary resmapling of images to try to hit some magical PPI numbers though. The old saw of resampling to numbers divisible by the "native resolution" of the printers is, I think wrong-headed. And downsampling any image for inkjet printing is simply wrong. However, the same can NOT be said for halftone printing...for halftone printing sending too much resolution can actually produce inferior results...but that's a different discussion.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 20, 2010, 02:09:19 pm
How does the driver differentiate between vector/text/line art and photographs? Answer: it doesn't.
Your may be right ...but the difference is the user enabling the option - that's how the driver knows.

Basically according to Eric Chan and others, finest detail forces the printer driver/printer to operate at 720dpi, whereas the default is 360dpi.  While this might be beneficial for the sharp clean edges of vector graphics, it is not recommended for photographs and large images.  It most likely has more to do with longer rendering times and memory issues when printing the file and not actual image quality. I've tested it several times years ago, and I couldn't ever see any improvement from enabling finest detail.

The challenge with any output is understanding and correctly applying output sharpening, so using finest detail after sizing to 720dpi and correctly sharpening may indeed be beneficial for some images, but using it without those steps most likely will accomplish nothing.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 20, 2010, 03:16:35 pm
In Qimage there's another good reason to select a higher print quality that asks for a higher image resolution input than the image data delivers at 1:1 printsize. The downsampling + anti-aliasing processing, though excellent, is much slower than the upsampling routine. The print time will of course be longer.

In the past I have rasterised vector designs in Photoshop or exported them as Tiffs from vector design software at 720 PPI, in both cases anti-aliasing on, to feed them to the Epson 9000s that didn't have 720 PPI rendering resolutions. The fonts and designs were sharper that way than when I kept the input on 360 PPI. My best guess is that something similar is done with the Fine Detail setting in modern drivers. The actual print resolution not increased but the data optimised. In analogy to the sub pixel rendering/anti-aliasing of fonts for displays.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: jeremypayne on November 20, 2010, 03:25:59 pm
I've been playing around with this since LR 3 came out.  I have an Epson 2880 and an older 6 ink HP.

My conclusion: When the native PPI will fall under 360/300, I use LR to send 360/300.

When the native PPI will be above 360/300, I use LR to send approximately the native PPI ... but never more than 550.

I found that even when I have native 720 ppi to send, I can't see the any difference from about 550 and up.

Based on what I see with my own eyes, 480 wasn't such a bad place to draw the line ... but I appreciate the upgrade.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: gromit on November 20, 2010, 03:41:53 pm
The challenge with any output is understanding and correctly applying output sharpening, so using finest detail after sizing to 720dpi and correctly sharpening may indeed be beneficial for some images, but using it without those steps most likely will accomplish nothing.

I don't disagree with this assertion, I was just pointing out the nonsensical basis of Epson's oft-quoted guideline. In my experience, Finest Detail is beneficial with photographs when sufficient original resolution exists and the paper is capable of showing it. It also, as you point out, involves careful tandem resampling/sharpening rather than just turning it on. The best results I've be able to obtain have been with Qimage and Blow Up 2, both of which can outdo that of Photokit Sharpener 1.x (without attendant resampling to 720ppi). I have yet to test Lightroom 3 in this regard.

Note also that Finest Detail is required to preserve detail in 360ppi files when printed to roll media (it's not required  for sheets). Why there would be a difference is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Farmer on November 20, 2010, 06:50:02 pm
Note also that Finest Detail is required to preserve detail in 360ppi files when printed to roll media (it's not required  for sheets). Why there would be a difference is a mystery to me.

Which printers, which versions of the drivers, and what evidence do you have for this?

Finest Detail is designed to deal with perfectly straight lines, such as you would find in vector output, along with the sharp edge contrast.  Most photographs, even of straight edges, aren't purely straight or such complete contrast as you have with vector art.  The 720 mode is designed for the type of output you would expect from vectors and may not provide an improvement in other printing.  You might get some benefit, but generally unless you have that much resolution natively, any opportunity for improvement will be lost in the upsampling process and you just have larger files that take longer to print.

For large native resolutions files, as Schewe said, it makes sense to send it through and take advantage of it.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: gromit on November 20, 2010, 07:25:45 pm
Which printers, which versions of the drivers, and what evidence do you have for this?

Originally tested on a 7900 and just repeated 2 minutes ago on my new 9900. Latest Mac driver. It's easy enough to test for yourself. Send a file with 180 line pairs per inch (vertical or horizontal), no color management (remember this?) and you'll get a flat patch on roll media, the lines precisely resolved on sheets. Finest Detail restores the lines on rolls. Surprising huh!
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Farmer on November 21, 2010, 05:17:11 pm
Originally tested on a 7900 and just repeated 2 minutes ago on my new 9900. Latest Mac driver. It's easy enough to test for yourself. Send a file with 180 line pairs per inch (vertical or horizontal), no color management (remember this?) and you'll get a flat patch on roll media, the lines precisely resolved on sheets. Finest Detail restores the lines on rolls. Surprising huh!

What media and what media settings in the driver (for each run)?

Such lines should print better with Finest Detail, but there should be no difference between sheet and roll feed.  Once I have your driver settings and media, I'll do some testing.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: gromit on November 21, 2010, 06:05:49 pm
What media and what media settings in the driver (for each run)?

Such lines should print better with Finest Detail, but there should be no difference between sheet and roll feed.  Once I have your driver settings and media, I'll do some testing.

I'm not sure the media and settings make any difference. The original testing was done with Doubleweight Matte. I just re-ran some tests on Premium Lustre 260 on my 7900 with both 1440 and 2880 high speed. Only the run with Finest Detail shows the lines.

I've attached the file I'm using for testing.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Farmer on November 21, 2010, 08:24:18 pm
Very interesting!

I did the prints on 170gsm PGPP roll and sheet (sheets cut from roll) and there's no different using Finest Detail or not, but there is a difference between sheet and roll.

I was printing at 720x1440 super microweave on, using canned ICC profile and PS manages colour.

I'm going to look into it some more.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 22, 2010, 12:45:10 am
I'm not sure the media and settings make any difference. The original testing was done with Doubleweight Matte. I just re-ran some tests on Premium Lustre 260 on my 7900 with both 1440 and 2880 high speed. Only the run with Finest Detail shows the lines.

I've attached the file I'm using for testing.

So the file is a 240 dpi file 3x3 inches, did you print it 3x3? To me logically the test would be designed to use the image at 360 dpi printed at 2x2.    At 240 it isn't at the printers native resolution, so some dithering artifacts seem likely as it is resized.  Using Finest Detail, the dithering would optimize the straight lines (which it is engineered to do) so it might enhance the resizing of the driver.  Still that wouldn't explain the difference between roll and sheet.

Using Epson Premium luster on my 11880, printing it at 2x2/360 dpi on roll paper set to retain size gives me the same results as a sheet.  I can see the lines, but there is a sort of moire look to the pattern on both.  Using Finest Detail eliminates most of the moire as the dither optimizes the straight lines ... which it is designed to do, and again printed on roll or sheet match.  I didn't try with borderless (auto expand) which could definitely alter the results as the driver would also have to resize the file up slightly.

I'll play with it some more tomorrow on some Glossy paper and at the native size of the file.



Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: gromit on November 22, 2010, 01:22:06 am
So the file is a 240 dpi file 3x3 inches ...

The file I attached is nominally 360ppi so if it's coming out at something else you may want to look at what's happening your end. Its resolution can be changed (Image Size, No Resampling) to test other image resolution/driver interactions. Note that after doing so you won't be printing images at 288ppi, 300ppi etc. anymore :-).
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Berry on November 22, 2010, 07:42:42 am
I have not looked at every reply to you question but as far as I know Epson printers have a native resolution of 360ppi-which should be set in PS.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 22, 2010, 08:39:56 am
Berry

 Berry , as you know , if your image has sufficient resolution, then automatically resampling is not the preferred choice. If what you say is true, then this means that no matter what, you should be resampling any photo that is not 360 ppi upt to or down to 360.  Is this right or wrong? It doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Berry on November 22, 2010, 09:09:08 am
I am by no means an expert but just relaying from experience-I could be wrong so anyone please correct me if I am.
Resolution choice is printer dependent like I commented before. While it's possible to set resolution at other values, such as 180dpi or 240dpi, etc., the printer will apply upward interpolation to such files to arrive at a printed resolution of 360dpi. This can create less than optimal results in sharpening, since the latter should always be based upon final image size. Other printers may have different native resolutions-if printing to a non-Epson printer,you should always determine native resolution and size the file accordingly. Does this make sense.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 22, 2010, 10:25:12 am
I am by no means an expert but just relaying from experience-I could be wrong so anyone please correct me if I am.
Resolution choice is printer dependent like I commented before. While it's possible to set resolution at other values, such as 180dpi or 240dpi, etc., the printer will apply upward interpolation to such files to arrive at a printed resolution of 360dpi. This can create less than optimal results in sharpening, since the latter should always be based upon final image size. Other printers may have different native resolutions-if printing to a non-Epson printer,you should always determine native resolution and size the file accordingly. Does this make sense.

Qimage does the interpolation (up- down) to the native printer resolution automatically (300,600  360,720 PPI) on the fly with the knowledge it gathers of the available image resolution, image print size and native printer resolution. Based on that knowledge too it also applies smart print sharpening. Sliders, interpolation algorithm choices, allow you to interfere if you know better than what Qimage + its default settings do. All on the fly, without creating a special image print files and without affecting the original image file.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Soon: spectral plots of +150 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 22, 2010, 10:28:57 am
oh so the answer is to spend a $100 and by qimage. problems solved. OK everybody ..... forget my original question. I'll just buy qimage.  >:(

NOTE to self > buying qimage does not answer the question. Also, you don't need to buy qimage if you understand what is going on with the original software and you want make your own adjustments there (for free).





Qimage does the interpolation (up- down) to the native printer resolution automatically (300,600  360,720 PPI) on the fly with the knowledge it gathers of the available image resolution, image print size and native printer resolution. Based on that knowledge too it also applies smart print sharpening. Sliders, interpolation algorithm choices, allow you to interfere if you know better than what Qimage + its default settings do. All on the fly, without creating a special image print files and without affecting the original image file.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Soon: spectral plots of +150 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 22, 2010, 11:30:10 am
oh so the answer is to spend a $100 and by qimage. problems solved. OK everybody ..... forget my original question. I'll just buy qimage.  >:(

NOTE to self > buying qimage does not answer the question. Also, you don't need to buy qimage if you understand what is going on with the original software and you want make your own adjustments there (for free).

What you are missing is that Qimage interrogates the (in this case Epson) printer driver, which returns the answer to the original question. Depending on the driver settings (highest quality and e.g. glossy paper type), Qimage will select 720PPI, as requested by the printer driver. Whether people prefer a more manual workflow and use lower quality upsampling or not, is beside the point. People are free to ignore good advice, but the question has been answered; it depends on the driver settings.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 22, 2010, 11:34:06 am
oh so the answer is to spend a $100 and by qimage. problems solved. OK everybody ..... forget my original question. I'll just buy qimage.  >:(

NOTE to self > buying qimage does not answer the question. Also, you don't need to buy qimage if you understand what is going on with the original software and you want make your own adjustments there (for free).


I should have added that Qimage does this in a transparent way. Above the preview window the printer driver requested native printer resolution is shown in PPI (in case your printer driver doesn't tell that, HP Z drivers do tell). Next to the degree choice of interpolation to be done by Qimage it shows the Qimage interpolation output resolution (0-25-50-100% of the requested resolution). In the print queue you will see the original image resolution but at printsize + the size in MB of the extrapolated file. Now you know anything you would like to know to change the Qimage defaults if they are not what you like to have. Of course a cropped proof of the intended print can also tell; you what the selected interpolation algorithm does and whether the paper coating is coping with the image data quality or vice versa. There are several nice crop tools in Qimage for that purpose, on the fly as well and not destructing your original file.

With that transparency Qimage is also a good tool to understand what is going on. That despite the fact that it can do things fast and automatic. And when there are questions, the manual is a good source, Mike's Technical essays on the subject of this thread unsurpassed:

http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/october-2008-interpolation-revisited/
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/articles/january-2005-coming-to-terms-with-dpi-ppi-and-size/
and more.

Qimage Light is 35$, there are more expensive video tutorials that tell less :-)


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Soon, spectral plots of +150 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 22, 2010, 12:19:44 pm
If, based on what people seem to be saying here, the epson driver requires 360ppi for best image reproduction, then why bother paying for qimage when all i have to do is type in 360ppi in photoshop ?  I gues qimage does a better job.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 22, 2010, 12:55:14 pm
I gues qimage does a better job.

Countless numbers of people have come to that conclusion. In the end, 720PPI and (if the output size requires it) better upsampling quality does pay off.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Aristoc on November 22, 2010, 01:19:18 pm
I just wanted to know what to do with photoshop. not anything else.  It sounds like people feel upsampling or downsampling to 36 is better than not resampling at all. (for epson's that it).

Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: NikoJorj on November 23, 2010, 03:55:56 am
It sounds like people feel upsampling or downsampling to 36 is better than not resampling at all. (for epson's that it).
Some but not all...
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/05/more-on-printer-sharpness.html
Neither do I (I ran the experiment and saw the results - but I'm nowhere as good a source as Ctein).
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 23, 2010, 04:35:13 am
Some but not all...
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/05/more-on-printer-sharpness.html
Neither do I (I ran the experiment and saw the results - but I'm nowhere as good a source as Ctein).

Much depends on the quality of the up- and downsampling algorithms + anti-aliasing with the last + the smart print sharpening possible given original image information and its dilution to larger print sizes. Drivers in general improved on the upsampling over the last decade. Several applications and plug-ins improved on more aspects. Photoshop isn't at the front of that development. Which sheds another light on Ctein's article as he wasn't interested in exploring this issue outside Photoshop's and the printer driver's capabilities. It is all less relevant when there is ample image resolution for the print size though even then it can be done wrong like heavy downsampling with inadequate algorithms where the better choice would have been to use a higher print quality setting that asks for a higher input resolution.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +165 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: jheiser on January 17, 2011, 07:56:31 pm
For lack of any better guideline, I leave the Lightroom print resolution set at 360PPI when sending images to my R2880.  Sometimes I get some banding, like a pattern of 1/8" checks, in light, relatively featureless areas of prints--both matte and glossy.

Thinking it might be some sort of moire that would still be there at 720, I just tried one of the problem prints at an intermediate value of 600, and it printed out very nicely. I can't see a bit of difference in fine details (hairs on closeup of butterfly), but it made a huge difference in the background, smoothing out the objectionable banding in the areas that have no detail.
Title: Re: do epson printers use 360/720 ppi no matter what you set in photoshop ?
Post by: robb thurmond on January 24, 2011, 07:10:40 pm
Your may be right ...but the difference is the user enabling the option - that's how the driver knows.

Basically according to Eric Chan and others, finest detail forces the printer driver/printer to operate at 720dpi, whereas the default is 360dpi.  While this might be beneficial for the sharp clean edges of vector graphics, it is not recommended for photographs and large images.  It most likely has more to do with longer rendering times and memory issues when printing the file and not actual image quality. I've tested it several times years ago, and I couldn't ever see any improvement from enabling finest detail.

The challenge with any output is understanding and correctly applying output sharpening, so using finest detail after sizing to 720dpi and correctly sharpening may indeed be beneficial for some images, but using it without those steps most likely will accomplish nothing.


I'm not sure that my answer is on topic, but as a graphic designer, I actually know something about this. That Finest quality selection is for text(most of which is vector) or any other vector object, and YES the printer does know the difference. Vector elements aren't rastorized until the final destination is known and allows the post script processor to raster the vector elements to optimize their curves. With the finest detail I can print 2 point type legibly, without it 8 point type is so aliased it looks muddy. It may also have some resolution influence, I am not as educated in that area, but I can tell you that if I am seeing aliasing its not a resolution issue. It's a post script issue. InDesign has an  option to "print as .bmp" which also turns off the post script processing, thus making text and vector images look muddy when there is fine detail.

I printed a page of business cards last night and forgot to make that selection, and the difference is night and day, no loupe needed.

My photography skills aren't sharp enough that printing at anything over  300dpi would display it, but I am fairly positive that the finest detail setting wouldn't touch your image. PostScript isn't a raster engine.