Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 01:22:37 pm

Title: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 01:22:37 pm
Background. A number of users have reported issues with non printable areas printing a gray or gray blue when using version 4 ICC printer profiles. X-Rite has a posting on their support page about this and it suggests you only build V2 profiles (http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1115&Action=support&SupportID=5083). Its been discussed in the Adobe forums (http://forums.adobe.com/message/3269849?tstart=0) and on this blog (http://www.dtgweb.com/blog/?p=93). Sure enough, I can duplicate this issue printing out of Lightroom and Photoshop CS5. But here’s the rub, I can’t duplicate this issue printing out of Preview nor Aperture. Using a V4 profile works correctly! I’m still on 10.6.4. I’m using an Epson 3880 for these tests. One must make an actual print (soft proofing or converting to the V4 profile doesn’t show the “scum dot” problem). Could this be an Adobe bug? Can others on Snow Leopard with V4 profiles confirm or deny that at the very least, Apple products print correctly or do you have any other non-Adobe product you can print a test with a V4 profile. IF indeed this is an Apple bug, I know who to present this data to but now I’m wondering if the issue isn’t Apples.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 18, 2010, 01:33:38 pm
Hi Andrew,

I'm using a V4 printer profile with Snow Leopard and either LR3 or PSCS5 for printing. It's a profile I made with the Pulse Elite kit when I up-dated my 3800 firmware and driver to the latest versions. I'm using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper. There is absolutely no change in the color of the image surround on that paper in any of the prints I've made this way since I bought the Mac and started printing with it. Now, you're talking about a 3880 printer, whereas I'm on the 3800. I know these are very similar machines, but if we are both using the same OS and the same profile format and the same applications from which we print, is it possible that the version of the Epson driver for the 3880 could be the source of the problem?
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 01:48:40 pm
I know these are very similar machines, but if we are both using the same OS and the same profile format and the same applications from which we print, is it possible that the version of the Epson driver for the 3880 could be the source of the problem?

Nope because I get the same results with a 2880 and others have reported this on other printers. Plus the Adobe and Apple products are using the same driver in both cases. It would be interesting to see if its how PULSE built the V4 profile however. Or if using the same measured data you used for PULSE, if generating a V4 profile from ProfileMaker Pro or another product produces the scum dot.

I’ll also build a V4 profile and try this on my Canon using the Export module. Under CS5, it can’t use the Adobe CMM in 64-bit, might be an interesting test.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 02:31:02 pm
I printed using the Canon Export module (5.0) out of CS5 without Adobe CMM and using 4.0 out of CS4 with Adobe CMM and a V4 profile. Printer was the iPF6300. NO sum dot!

I then printed using the Canon Printer driver using a V4 profile in CS4. No Scum dot.

I lastly printed using the Canon Printer driver using the Epson V4 profile that produced a sum dot earlier today on the 3880. Naturally, color was not so great, but NO scum dot.

So this appears to be some combo of Adobe/Epson driver issue once again. Can’t get a sum dot using a V4 profile on the 3880 printing from two Apple app’s or out of the Canon driver so I’m not sure what’s going on here in terms of the bug, but we’ve seen this before so I’m not really surprised.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: na goodman on November 18, 2010, 02:41:59 pm
My version 4 profiles print with the "scum dot" on both an Epson 3800 and 9800. They were profiles made with a Pulse but, I don't think that mattered. I finally gave up with all of the problems and connected a pc to drive the 9800 thru Qimage and can print with any profile V4 or V2 without any problems. I never thought I would be printing from a pc but it was just becoming too cumbersome and frustrating on my beloved Macs.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 02:51:24 pm
My version 4 profiles print with the "scum dot" on both an Epson 3800 and 9800. They were profiles made with a Pulse...

So why are your V4 Pulse profiles and Mark’s V4 Pulse profiles not behaving the same?

Mark, you build them on the Mac or Windows?
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: na goodman on November 18, 2010, 02:56:20 pm
Don't know, but I went thru every possible situation and also involved xrite because it seems their i1match software had conflicts with Snow Leopard.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 18, 2010, 04:39:51 pm
So why are your V4 Pulse profiles and Mark’s V4 Pulse profiles not behaving the same?

Mark, you build them on the Mac or Windows?

On PC of course. Colour management is partially fubar'd on Snow Leopard - remember the "<no color management> can't be turned off" issue?

Now on that score, I was told the other day that IF one prints the targets through the profiling application itself (in my case Pulse) it bypasses Colorsync completely and as long as I have color management OFF in the Epson driver it should be fine. Haven't re-tested yet, as it was only two days ago I learned of this and I've been real busy with other stuff. Pulse Elite is the only profiling kit I own so I can't test anything on any other profiling application, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 04:43:36 pm
On PC of course. Colour management is partially fubar'd on Snow Leopard - remember the "<no color management> can't be turned off" issue?

Now on that score, I was told the other day that IF one prints the targets through the profiling application itself (in my case Pulse) it bypasses Colorsync completely and as long as I have color management OFF in the Epson driver it should be fine.

But this is all target building stuff. Its possible that V4 profiles generated on the PC are different from V4 profiles generated on the Mac. But what I’m starting to see is that depending on the application and driver, the V4 profiles don’t produce a sum dot. We could trade profile (actually you and Na Goodman should).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 18, 2010, 07:22:28 pm
But this is all target building stuff. Its possible that V4 profiles generated on the PC are different from V4 profiles generated on the Mac. But what I’m starting to see is that depending on the application and driver, the V4 profiles don’t produce a sum dot. We could trade profile (actually you and Na Goodman should).

Much as I would be willing to help out in this way, unfortunately I'm not in a position to do so over the next ten days. If I get a PM from nagoodman by EARLY in the morning I can manage to send him the profile I'm using, but that's all I can offer for now.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 07:54:51 pm
Much as I would be willing to help out in this way, unfortunately I'm not in a position to do so over the next ten days. If I get a PM from nagoodman by EARLY in the morning I can manage to send him the profile I'm using, but that's all I can offer for now.

Its just a small data point really (why would your profile work and his not). The real issue is V4 profiles. From the testing today and communication with Chris Murphy about this, it appears that the issue isn’t system wide. But its dangerous enough that its probably not worth messing with V4 profiles, certainly on OS X with Lightroom and Photoshop. Indesign CS5? Prints just fine. Aperture and Preview, no issue.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: na goodman on November 18, 2010, 08:06:08 pm
Like I said, I have let it go and have resorted to a work around that works for me. But, you are correct - better to stay away from V4 profiles for now.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 08:18:06 pm
Its just a small data point really (why would your profile work and his not). The real issue is V4 profiles. From the testing today and communication with Chris Murphy about this, it appears that the issue isn’t system wide. But its dangerous enough that its probably not worth messing with V4 profiles, certainly on OS X with Lightroom and Photoshop. Indesign CS5? Prints just fine. Aperture and Preview, no issue.

I just did a test with a version 2 profile created from ProfileMaker and it did the same thing. The post 10.6.4 bug is not version specific. Pre 10.6.4 it was and was a much darker gray.

You are confusing this problem (post 10.6.4) by claiming it is a Ver 4 only problem
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 18, 2010, 08:21:49 pm
I recall Jeff Schewe advising a poster on another thread to use V2 profiles.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 08:23:39 pm
I recall Jeff Schewe advising a poster on another thread to use V2 profiles.

It depends which bug he was talking about.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 08:45:15 pm
I just did a test with a version 2 profile created from ProfileMaker and it did the same thing.

Did what?

V2 profiles from PMP absolutely do not produce the scum dot I’m referring to. I built a V2 and V4 today from that product (and a product soon to be released). The V2 profiles from those packages within Photoshop print fine.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 09:02:19 pm
Did what?

V2 profiles from PMP absolutely do not produce the scum dot I’m referring to. I built a V2 and V4 today from that product (and a product soon to be released). The V2 profiles from those packages within Photoshop print fine.

I just ran the version 2 test from CS5 and it produced the scum dot.  And resizing made no difference.

I think I am back to my original conclusions from a couple of mouths ago, that it has something to do with how these profiles are being produced that triggers this bug. What settings did you use in PMP?

Here is a link to that version 2 profile I just created.

http://www.dypinc.com/V2.icc.zip

Also for others, this is with a Canon iPF9000, OS 10.6.5 Latest driver version.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 09:06:42 pm
I just ran the version 2 test from CS5 and it produced the scum dot.  And resizing made no difference.

OK, I’m not seeing the same thing. Not sure what the sizing has to do with this.
Double check the PMP Prefs.

Quote
I think I am back to my original conclusions from a couple of mouths ago, that it has something to do with how these profiles are being produced that triggers this bug. What settings did you use in PMP?

Large, Logo Chroma Plus. But the issue is seen with a yet to be released profile building product too.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 09:10:20 pm
But the issue is seen with a yet to be released profile building product too.


That is not good! This problem is defiantly not there with MonacoProfiler created version 4 profiles.

You forgot the link.

PMP settings here. Large Paper-colored Gray. Logo Chroma Plus.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 18, 2010, 09:31:52 pm
That is not good! This problem is defiantly not there with MonacoProfiler created version 4 profiles.

Damn! Another wrench in this. You are correct! I just built a V4 profile from PROFILER and no scum dot. I’ll inform the party with the new product. But now its even more complicated as to what the hell is going on here.

And why did PMP work OK for me, not you.

I think we should trade not the final profiles but the data files. All the work I’ve done has been on an iSis, gathering spectral data. Our ProfileMaker Pro settings are the same but from looking into the profile you linked to, different hardware (I’m also using the latest version, 5.1.0).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 09:46:57 pm
I’ll inform the party with the new product. But now its even more complicated as to what the hell is going on here.


Oh no. Now I wished I would have created more of a stink about this when I first brought this up back in June.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2918572#2918572

But hay, I was creating profiles from MP for everything I was printing from LR and PS. And everything I was printing from ID that I was using Relative Colorimetric rendering for I created the profiles from PMP. So it just was not affecting me. But maybe I need to cancel my order for the new product.

But when you come right down to it I still think it is an Apple bug. But what the hell is triggering it?
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 10:01:10 pm
I updated the previous linked file with the Measurement Data files.

http://www.dypinc.com/V2.icc.zip
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: na goodman on November 18, 2010, 10:41:10 pm
This is from an earlier discussion on this forum from when my issues first started.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=43919.0

I'm guessing you used an i1 with iMatch software to create the profile?  Three of my group noticed the same behavior -- it appears to be an issue with the i1 software on the latest Mac OSX.  We all print on Epsons and you didn't mention your printer, but it could also be Epson/Mac/i1 specific issue. Epson canned profiles do not exhibit this behavior, only i1 generated profiles. 

It seems as though OSX>Epson is treating an i1 profile as an absolute colorimetric profile regardless of how you print with it. Note that if you build your profile by reading the target on a white base, it prints a lighter gray/cyan outside the print area than if you create the profile reading the target over a gray backing -- so it does appear to be an issue with how i1 is reading and then rendering the profile.  And FWIW this was with a version 2 profile out of i1 3.6.3, so I rebuilt the profile using i1 3.6.2 and had the same issue.

I think it has to do with what program is used in making the profile. At least it looks like it is pointing that way. Mark sent me a profile so I'll test it as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 18, 2010, 10:53:06 pm
I am using a i1Pro UV cut reading the targets with Measure Tool. Saving as for PMP and Saving LAB and converting for MonacoProfiler. So both PMP and MP measurement data came from the same read. These were Bill Atkinson's targets 1728 or 4096.

The printer I am was using for these tests is a Canon iPF9000. Latest driver version 2.17. I haven't tried the Epson 9600 that hasn't been used for awhile but I do not think this has anything to do with printer drivers. Because of the initial bug in 10.6 and the fixing of that with 10.6.4 only to have another bug surface in 10.6.4 seems to point directly at Apple.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 19, 2010, 12:18:56 pm
I am using a i1Pro UV cut reading the targets with Measure Tool. Saving as for PMP and Saving LAB and converting for MonacoProfiler. So both PMP and MP measurement data came from the same read. These were Bill Atkinson's targets 1728 or 4096.

So with the same Lab data, you build a profile using PMP and PROFILER. The PMP V2 has the scum dot (on the Canon as well as Epson?) but the PROFILER does not?

Quote
The printer I am was using for these tests is a Canon iPF9000. Latest driver version 2.17. I haven't tried the Epson 9600 that hasn't been used for awhile but I do not think this has anything to do with printer drivers. Because of the initial bug in 10.6 and the fixing of that with 10.6.4 only to have another bug surface in 10.6.4 seems to point directly at Apple.

On my iPF6300, with the driver or Plug-In, I can’t get a scum dot so this is indeed odd.

We need to stop (as Chris Murphy wrote to me off list), for a second because the matrix is getting too big, and we're going to lose track of what we've tested.

Here’s what I have thus far:

1. The V4 profile “scum dot” is only showing up with Lightroom and Photoshop print paths thus far.
2. These profiles that produce a scum dot in these app’s don’t produce this effect in InDesign 5, Aperture or Preview.
3. These profiles do not produce a scum dot with printing to a Canon iPF6300 with the Photoshop Export module or print driver (at least for me).
4. It appears that V4 profiles built on this end, with PROFILER 4.8. do not produce the scum dot. Profiles built with a beta and PMP on this end do. V2 profiles do not.
5. Here on Luminous Landscape, one user who was building V4 profiles using the old PULSE software said they get the scum dot, the other said he did not. Since this software is no longer, I’m wondering if we even want to go down this path due to the other issues.
6. Chris and I examined the print spools in Acrobat. There is a vector object around the image that is specified as sRGB (while the image is specified as the output profile) when we print from Photoshop. No vector object when printing from InDesign.
7. Its clear that Photoshop and LR use a different print path than the other app’s. Can anyone say that using other app’s with V4 profiles, built from any product produce a scum dot?
8. Up to know, this is the first post I know of where this scum dot has been attributed to a V2 profile. It would be useful to know the full conditions that produced this and if anyone else can reproduce this and if so, just using the supplied measured data to build profiles or from scratch (print target, measure, build profile).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 19, 2010, 12:39:26 pm
Here is a link to that version 2 profile I just created.

Just printed using that profile to my Epson 3880 using CS5, no scum dot.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Passnga on November 23, 2010, 05:01:17 am
After reading through this, posting my own version of events (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=48207.0) and reading a lot of other posts here and elsewhere I would have to agree with Jeff Schewe, V4 Profiles are not worth the trouble (if using OSX 10.6 at least). Though I am yet to have the differences explained to me in a straight forward real world (useful, in other words) way the differences between V2 and V4 profiles.

And an update on the testing I have done, now out of my own curiosity. I have no problems with V4 profiles in CS3, CS4 and CS5 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 (32 and 64bit). I only see the issue when using OSX10.6. Those V4 profiles were created in both Profile Maker 5 and EyeOne Match.

I look for forward to hearing about other results your guys are getting.   

 
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on November 23, 2010, 07:11:55 am
I just did a test with profiles created with EFI Printer Profiler. No scrum dot with V4 profiles from EFI Printer Profiler. I even took an existing PMP created V4 profile that printed with a scrum dot and imported it into EFI Printer Profiler and regenerated a profile and the new profile does not produce a scrum dot.

This is all very strange. Some profile generation software create profile that produce this and some do not. And even more strange Andrew's Canon iPF6300 does not produce a scrum dot, but with the same profile my Canon iPF9000 does. So I wonder what difference is there, drivers?

Doyle
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on November 23, 2010, 09:44:12 am
Though I am yet to have the differences explained to me in a straight forward real world (useful, in other words) way the differences between V2 and V4 profiles.

http://www.color.org/whyusev4.xalter
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Simon J.A. Simpson on December 01, 2010, 05:57:30 pm
Sorry to throw another spanner (wrench) into the works here.

I have just inadvertently discovered the same problem using a Canon 9000Pro.

I normally print from Tiger (10.4.11) from a venerable Mac G5 – no problem with V2 or V4 profiles – but the other day I made a print from my laptop (Mac Intel Snow Leopard 10.6.5) and, for complicated (but irrelevant) reasons used a V4 profile.  Lo and behold, a faint blue is printed around the image.  Same profile and same image on the G5 Tiger – no pale blue “scum dot” (I’d love to have an explanation as to why this description ?).

OK, some info:
Mac OS 10.6.5
Photoshop CS4
Latest Canon drivers
Profile created using an X-Rite ColoMunki – V4

When I get time I'll try making some prints from non-Adobe applications to see if the ‘scum dot’s replicated or not (no one hold your breath I’m a bit busy right now).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Manuel_A on December 01, 2010, 06:19:54 pm
Is your system V4-ready? (http://www.color.org/version4ready.xalter)


Download and print the PDF file.


I hope this helps…
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on December 02, 2010, 12:16:30 pm
(I’d love to have an explanation as to why this description ?).

Right now, what we know is, when you print out of SN with a V4 profile, the PDF Spool file has a vector object that is tagged as sRGB (unlike the image). You can see this if you have Acrobat Pro and save out the spool file prior to it getting to the printer from the CUPs folder. The process is a bit convoluted but thus far, the generation of this vector object *appears* to be the culprit.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: elolaugesen on December 04, 2010, 03:20:40 pm
I have had the same problem with 10.6.5 and version 2 profiles.  I have also had other version 2 profiles without the problems.  seems to be depend on software used to generate the profiles.  profiles work fine with 10.5.8..

ie.  Epson drivers for 3800 work perfectly, most(THE ONES I Have tested) 1isis profiles do not work,  monaco works 

 go look at my post on the MACOSX Combo 10.6.5 update
http://forums.adobe.com/message/3172635#3172635
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=12330271&#12330271
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Simon J.A. Simpson on December 05, 2010, 08:57:25 am
Manual_A
My system is V4 profile "ready" – apparently.  I'm ready too.  But something else is not.

Andrew
1:  My enquiry about the origins of the term "scum dot" were less technical and rather more tongue in cheek, but thank you.  Seems like a splendid description of something you don't want – I just wonder how you thought of it, or was it the most decently abusive thing you could think of at the time ?!

2:  More seriously, I have confirmed that the pale blue scum dot does not appear when printing from Preview.  This would appear to support the hypothesis that it is Adobe Photoshop related and effects more than one printer vendor, although it would be necessary to try other applications to be sure.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on December 05, 2010, 12:45:07 pm
Scum dot is a pretty well, accepted term used in prepress for the behavior I am seeing.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Chris_Brown on December 05, 2010, 01:14:45 pm
Info: Ink Dot Scum (http://printwiki.org/Ink_Dot_Scum).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Simon J.A. Simpson on December 06, 2010, 06:00:25 pm
Info: Ink Dot Scum (http://printwiki.org/Ink_Dot_Scum).

Aha !  Thank you.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: digitaldog on December 06, 2010, 08:22:29 pm
Aha !  Thank you.

Note that a scum dot can be produced in other ways than described in the link. For example, I’ve seen ICC profiles with bugs that introduce a scum dot in one or more color channels when converting RGB 255/255/255 to CMYK (where the result is not 0/0/0/0).
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 17, 2011, 10:46:18 am
Need help:

My setup: 
iMac with OSC 10.6, Adobe LR3 and Canon 9000 MKII
. My monitor calibrated, and I have created profiles for my camera.
I only can print with Printer managing the colors simply becase could not find how to turn OFF proter managing colors when printing with profiles.  When printing with profiles prints are darker and colors are nor vibrant.

When I select LR3 to manage colors and select paper profile printing screen reminds not to forget (on the print screen) to turn OFF printer management of colors. I never could figure out how and where it should be done. As result printing with profiles creates darker and not clear colors print.
Please, help to find how to disable printer from managing colors.


Leo
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on December 17, 2011, 12:55:14 pm
Post screen captures of your print dialogs.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 17, 2011, 02:13:49 pm
Thank you for helping.
Here for screens from Print modules. The first two tittle (1a) and (1b) are cropped from the opened Print screen with selection of Printer managed the colors (1a) and Adobe with using Canon Paper profile (1b)
The screen (2a) is the next opened when selecting Pint from the Print module. This screen opened with selected "Layout" as default. Under layout is the option "Color Matching" - image (2b) - which show  (o)Color Sync or the selected (o) Canon Color Matching, however both are shown as greyout.
Leo
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on December 17, 2011, 03:22:40 pm
Are you sure you are using the Pro9000 Mark II series CUPS Printer Driver Ver. 10.51.2.0 (Mac OS X 10.5/10.6/10.7) and not the Apple supplied driver?

Show me the rest of the printer  dialogs where you choose paper type etc.

Also are you sure your profile is still available to Lightroom. It can still be in your drop down list in LR but if is not available, Color Matching will default to Canon Color Controls, when it should I believe default to Colorsync.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 17, 2011, 07:49:28 pm
I think that was using provided DVD, however probably should get new driver from Canon. Let me know is it is good idea. Also, the attached is LR3 screen with paper profiles. To open this screen I am choosing "Other ..." I have added Red River profiles. These fit the shorter screen. The Canon profile titles are very long - the capture screen almost 2000 pix.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Doyle Yoder on December 17, 2011, 08:16:12 pm
Yes you should definitely install the latest driver.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 17, 2011, 10:11:42 pm
Thank you. I will later today.
Leo
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 18, 2011, 12:32:55 pm
Hi,
I have searched Apple.com support for Color Management and I think found the answer (find below). I also attached the LR Print module screens for Color Matching (Printer manages the colors and ColorSync manages the colors). There is no chance to select because the choice is grayed out, however one shows ColorSync and another Canon Printer.

Here is the Apple info for OSX 10.6:

Changing color management options for printing.
If the colors in your document don’t look right, you can change whether colors are managed by ColorSync or your printer.
To change color management options for printing:
   1.   Open the document you want to print.
   2.   Choose File > Print.
If the Print dialog contains only two pop-up menus and some buttons across the bottom,
                click the disclosure triangle beside the Printer pop-up menu.
   3.   Choose Color Matching from the print options pop-up menu.
   4.   Select one of the following options:
   ▪   Select ColorSync if you want the application you’re using to control the color management of the printed output.
   ▪   Select “In printer” if you want the printer you’re using to control the color management of the printed output.
   5.   If you select ColorSync and don’t believe the correct profile is selected for your printer, you may be able to change it.
                If you see a Profile pop-up menu, choose Other Profiles from the pop-up menu, and select a new one.

It seems that OSX takes care of the choice however the prints when managed by printer are almost perfect match to my calibrated monitor screen and  when using profiles the print is much darker with lost details in low light areas.
Leo
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mac Mahon on December 18, 2011, 09:07:12 pm
Leo

I have nearly the same setup as you.  I print successfully from LR - with very good monitor-print matching - using profiles.  When you choose the paper profile in LR's print dialog, the OS automatically selects Colorsync to manage the process, part of which is to turn off further colour management.  All options are greyed out.

I can think of only three explanations for you dark prints when using profiles:
(1) they're not really too dark, rather the screen luminance is too high (see digital dog's contributions elsewhere on this forum on that issue)
(2) the profile you're using is not the correct profile for the paper you're printing on - did you create the profile yourself, or is it a 'canned' profile?  supplied by?
(3) in the print driver you have somehow not selected the appropriate media setting (under 'Quality and Media' in the driver)

Do you get this dark phenomenon when you print on a Canon paper using their canned profile and the appropriate media setting?  While a canned profile may not give you superb colour matching you shouldn't be getting dreadful lightness/darkness mismatches.  If so, I would suspect explanation (1) above .

One of your screen shots  suggests you may be using a Red River paper.  If that's the case double check that you are using an appropriate media setting (ie which of the Canon media choices should you make to best approximate the reflectance, absorbency characteristics of your RR paper).  If you get that wrong all hell can, and often does, break loose. RR should have suggested an appropriate media setting when supplying the profile (if that's where you got it).

BTW if you have not updated OS 10.6 to the last version, OS 10.6.8, I would suggest doing that.  There were some issues with the initial releases of 'Snow Leopard'.

And, as suggested by Doyle, the latest Canon driver is known to work well with 10.6.8 (and 10.7 too!)

I hope this may be helpful

Cheers

Tim
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: nucleonb on December 19, 2011, 12:22:38 am
Hi Tim,
- My operating system version is 10.6.8.
- Printer Canon 9000 MK II
- I do use Canon profiles for Canon paper.
- I have used RR profiles for RR paper - printed art album for my friend artist on Zeppelin, Semi-Gloss double sided. Tried to get RR tech support to solve the dark prints problem and their advise after detailed analysis with my sent file was: use Gloss Canon profile  and let printer manage the color. The reason was - It works well and id worked well for me. Later, the publisher used my files for the album.

- My monitor (screen) is calibrated with with Spyder3 at maximum brightness and I set brightness to max when editing. Do you calibrate Monitor at the max brightness?

- My editors are LR3 (80-90%)  and Adobe Elements for minor corrections and use of layers.
- The file formats are RAW saved as PSD for farther editing (Photoshop). I print PSD.
- The printer driver updated yesterday. Have not printed yet to verify if the printer driver was causing the problem

Thank you for the time.
Leo
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on December 19, 2011, 08:44:34 am


- My monitor (screen) is calibrated with with Spyder3 at maximum brightness and I set brightness to max when editing. Do you calibrate Monitor at the max brightness?


I think this is your problem.  You don't say what kind of monitor you are using but I don't know of any case where maximum brightness will give you a good match for your print.  Tim's comment #1 is correct.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 19, 2011, 09:26:22 am
Leo, I agree with Tim and Alan - this is most likely 95% of your issue. The other 5% COULD BE the Canon profile - but I'm hypothesizing as I have no experience with them - only saying this because there can be some advantage using a well-made custom profile. The other point I would emphasize, is that once you calibrate your display to a luminance appropriate for your working conditions and reprofile it, do not touch the display brightness controls thereafter. Andrew Rodney's essay about "why are my prints too dark" on this website is excellent. Have a look before you proceed. I don't know whether your display allows you to use DDC for calibration, or you need to do it manually, but whichever the approach, getting the Luminance down to a reasonable match for the reflected light coming off your print in "normal viewing conditions" is one of the most critical parameters to nail correctly in this situation. The printer, paper and ambient lighting conditions where you work are key factors in choosing the most appropriate luminance level. I think the most helpful behavioural relationship to bear in mind when approaching this is that bright screens induce us to reduce image luminance, and the reduced values end up producing dark prints. To give you a flavour for it - and everyones' conditions vary - in my case, using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper in an Epson 4900, with only two sixty watt bulbs - surrounded by dark lamp shades about ten feet away off-side of my display, my display luminance is anchored at 100. My prints viewed under Solux D50 bulbs (only switched on for viewing the prints) about four feet overhead look fine compared with the soft-proofed display version of the file.
Title: Re: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)
Post by: Mac Mahon on December 19, 2011, 03:16:40 pm
Hey Leo

No.  I have my monitor turned way down!  A good rule of thumb is that a white page on the screen should look about the same brightness as the reflected light from a bit of photo paper where you would look at it when comparing an image on print and screen.  FWIW using this rule of thumb, my Mac monitor is usually in the region 90-100 cd/m2.

Diagnosis #1 sounds like it's right.  Thanks Mark and Alan!

Tim