Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: fredjeang on November 17, 2010, 03:23:43 pm

Title: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 17, 2010, 03:23:43 pm
Hi,

As some of you know, I currently assist in commercial (mostly fashion) productions. I'm very happy and thankfull to have such an oportunity. But in the back of my head, I also feel that something is not exactly right. More I'm involved into it, more it appears clearly that this is not the path I'd like to keep going for myself. In fact, I really enjoy shooting with models but doing commercial does not fullfill me.
I'm taking this moment as a tremendous luck to be able to learn a lot, but when I start to think seriously about my own path, something very different emerge naturaly.

I'm attracted to LF, but never end to make the step. Maybe for intimidated. Indeed, when I hear you guys talking about the Rodenstock, all those strange LF devices etc... I feel totally stranger to that and lost, but immensly attracted. It's like another photographic world that I don't know, I'd like to know, but I always end avoiding it because it seems too abstract.
Here, I do not know anybody who is working with 8x10. Madrid in that sense is a village, a desert land so in terms of direct communication with an experienced LF photographer, I can't really have this oportunity for the moment.

When I joined Lu-La, I asked some LF advices here, I was motivated but finally the events and this assistant job kept me really busy and all that falled into an uncertain "tomorrow".  

As I prefer todays than tomorrows, I decided to start anyway on my own.

The think is that I don't really know from where to start with. I have absolutly no idea what should I e-bay, (talking strictly for cameras and lenses). Is there equipment that you could recommend for starting, and very important, that is compatible with digital backs. I will start with film but want to have the possibility to use digi in the future.
Basically I'm looking for good quality/price cameras because my budget is limited.

Any advice very welcome.

Fred.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dennis Carbo on November 17, 2010, 03:33:59 pm
Hi Fred,

I got an absolutely mint Graflex Grafix View II 4 x 5 camera with Nikon 135mm lens in the case with graflok back and 2 holders for $150.00  From the 40's up to late 60's it was a very popular Pro Level View camera.  Its no P2 but dude....its $150.00 and takes great picts !  Has both front and rear shift , swings and tilts

Regards,

Dennis

Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Josiah Davidson on November 17, 2010, 04:13:57 pm
Hi Fred,

I shot 8x10 landscape for 20 years. I used a Sinar P modular monorai view camera and then a Deardorff flatbed folding field camera. The Sinar P was good for studio work, but the Deardorff was far better outside -- sharper and faster.
Superb lenses are crucial. My favorites were the top-of-the line Rodenstocks (the "Caltar" vesions tested better than the brand-name versions, best color and contrast). Sinar and Nikkor were also good. And I had an exqusite 240mm Computar (whatever that was). Every Fuji I ever tested was junk. Un-tilted they were pretty good, but when tilted they fell apart.
8x10 is great because you can see what you're doing on the groundglass, but a camera, lenses, tripod, and 20 film holders weighs a good 60-100lbs!
4x5 is nice and compact--really about as good as a 35mm kit. And you can use lightweight compact ready load film packets instead of bulky heavy film holders. You can get a nice, small lightweight field camera like a Wista, but it does not have enough bellows for longer lenses, and is not as fast to operate as a Deardorff (if you can find one). I have used MANY LF field cameras, but none are as good and quick as the Deardorff (which is a rickety contraption that just plain WORKS!)
For depth of field, don't bother with trying to inspect the ground glass while stopped down, use a focusing calculation system like what Sinar uses. Faster and much more accurate. Set your tilts and swings. Focus on first item that come into focus. Mark your focus spot on the dial. Focus on last item that comes into focus. Mark your focus spot on the dial. Now set your focus dial physically 1/2 way between the two. Set your aperature according to the scale on your dial. You can make your own scale according to what is an acceptable circle of confusion for your purposes.

There's a little carryover from LF film to digital, but not much. Really only with a scanning back. LF film images are enlarged very little. Sensors (even MF) are MUCH smaller and therefore enlarged much more. So everything needs to be far more precise. For fun, low production work, there is no better bang for the buck than a 4x5 kit with a good film scanner. All used.

Have fun!

-jd
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 17, 2010, 04:38:47 pm
Fred, in this case, art photography, I think you are looking at the wrong measuring sticks.

I believe that the secret of success is exactly the same as with fashion, commercial or anything else: networking.

If you can contrive to meet the right people, get invited to the right houses and parties, your Contax will do very nicely, thank you! As, indeed, would 35mm film or digital. Look at so many of the stars of photo art - Leicas, Nikons and Zeiss too, sometimes. You can have the biggest, sharpest prints in the world, but unless you are considered hot, it doesn't mean a thing. It's all a game, and you have to be asked to play.

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 17, 2010, 04:39:40 pm
Hi Fred,

I got an absolutely mint Graflex Grafix View II 4 x 5 camera with Nikon 135mm lens in the case with graflok back and 2 holders for $150.00  From the 40's up to late 60's it was a very popular Pro Level View camera.  Its no P2 but dude....its $150.00 and takes great picts !  Has both front and rear shift , swings and tilts

Regards,

Dennis


Grafaxes are nice cameras for the price, no big investment.  I would recommend buying one of these to start if you are not that sure of what you want to do.  And a 135mm is a good focal length, should get some decent movement since it is not that wide, but wider than normal.  You can also shoot hand held with them.  If you are handy, you can get a special film holder that can hold 5 sheets of film, but you need to buy three and fool around with them to get one working model.  (Grafax does not make these any more)

When you get a cheap camera like this one, the important thing to make sure the bellows are light tight.  You can do this by inserting a lit light bulb into the camera in a dark room.  If you see spots of light on the bellows then you need to do some repair.  The cheapest way to repair small holes is to paint the inside and outside area with think black acrylic paint (matte finish inside).  

Also, older lenses tend to get less accurate with the longer shutter speeds; something to watch out for.  Hint: always adjust the shutter speed before cocking the lens.  

Something that I would not recommend buying too used are film holders; they can get leaks and are harder to repair.  

Make your own light shade/blanket.  Use two sheets of cloth, inside black, and outside white (it can get hot under there during the summer).  

And you will need to loupe to focus; dont get anything expensive since you are only using it for ground glass.  
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 17, 2010, 04:43:12 pm
Fred, in this case, art photography, I think you are looking at the wrong measuring sticks.

I believe that the secret of success is exactly the same as with fashion, commercial or anything else: networking.

If you can contrive to meet the right people, get invited to the right houses and parties, your Contax will do very nicely, thank you! As, indeed, would 35mm film or digital. Look at so many of the stars of photo art - Leicas, Nikons and Zeiss too, sometimes. You can have the biggest, sharpest prints in the world, but unless you are considered hot, it doesn't mean a thing. It's all a game, and you have to be asked to play.

Rob C
I totally agree with you on the business end, but sometimes you learn different things about doing photography by using different types of cameras.  Shooting with large format really trains you to move slow and pay attention to everything; 35 mm not so much. 
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Sheldon N on November 17, 2010, 04:50:20 pm
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

and

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

All the info you could ever want, and more...
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dennis Carbo on November 17, 2010, 06:17:50 pm
@Joe

I think you are thinking of the Speedgraphics also made by Graflex, I also have one of these..popular newspaper camera, Flag Raise on Iwo Jima, and Hindenberg disaster were both shot with these and you can hand hold them . I was referring To the Graflex Graphic View II which is an actual View Camera with its own Tripod base made from 1948 to 1967 . Earlier Graphic View 1 ones had less desirable movements. They are well built and fully functional View cameras that give the full range of movements unlike the Speed Graphics which is more of a field camera with some front tilt and rise only.

Great place to get your feet wet with LF there are a million of them out there cheap and they are still very useful

Regards,

Dennis
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Policar on November 18, 2010, 03:43:48 am
I found the site mentioned above and this book helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Camera-Steve-Simmons/dp/0817463534/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290066612&sr=8-1

From what I understand, the caltar ii-n lenses are the best for the money if you're looking for modern lenses and sharp, well-corrected images.  These sell for very little on ebay and are apparently rebranded rodenstock lenses.  Just don't bid on a 240mm or 300mm one.  I want it!  There are better, more advanced lenses (schneider super symmar xl, etc.) but they cost a lot and mostly only provide more coverage for lens movements.

LF is the simplest format in terms of how the camera works.  The front standard holds the lens, the rear standard holds the ground glass.  A light-proof bellows stretches between them.  You can move both the lens and ground glass with quite a bit of freedom, and so focus (the focal length of a given lens is the approximate distance needed between the front and rear standard to focus), rotate the plane of focus (by angling the lens slightly), and frame the shot while maintaining perspective (rise/fall/shift).  This is a big advantage for shooting architecture; you can  aim at the horizon and then frame up or down as need be so you won't have trapezoid buildings, which you get from physically tilting the camera.  One problem is that large format lenses are SLOW (usually f4.5 to f11 wide open) so you need to view the ground glass under a dark cloth and use a loupe (magnifying glass) to focus.  It's a pain.

When you're ready to shoot, you close the shutter (built into the lens), set the f-stop to what you want, take a light meter reading, calculate for bellows compensation (if the bellows is extended further than infinity focus you need to let in more light to compensate), set the shutter speed, and then slide a film holder in under the ground glass.  The ground glass slides back and the film rests where the ground glass was when you were focusing.  Remove the dark slide, trip the shutter, reinsert the dark slide, and then your film is exposed and ready to process.

The extra quality you get with LF, which isn't even that much better than a good dSLR, doesn't really justify all the work it takes unless you enjoy all the work it takes.  The lens movements are nice, though.

Focus on first item that come into focus. Mark your focus spot on the dial. Focus on last item that comes into focus. Mark your focus spot on the dial. Now set your focus dial physically 1/2 way between the two. Set your aperature according to the scale on your dial. You can make your own scale according to what is an acceptable circle of confusion for your purposes.-jd

How can I get such a device for my camera (toyo 45aii)?  This would be so welcome.  Reading the focusing scale on the bed is quite a pain and I don't know how many millimeters correlate with what f-stop; I'd much rather have a knob I could refer to.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on November 18, 2010, 05:03:02 am
Do yourself a favor and get a monorail, preferably a reasonably light one ...
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: ondebanks on November 18, 2010, 05:41:41 am
Do yourself a favor and get a monorail, preferably a reasonably light one ...

Yes, that is the biggest initial decision you must make - what shape of LF camera?

There are 3 basic shapes. In order of both decreasing portability but also decreasing flexibility, they are: monorail, folding flatbed (field), and pancake (lens cone).

The pancake types usually only give no other movements than lens shift, but they are light, rigid, and even good for shooting handheld.
Folding field cameras are good all-rounders with decent movements but limited bellows extension. Typical landscape shooter's camera.
Monorails have complete movements, and due to their unwieldy shape are best used indoors but can certainly be taken out into the field too.

I picked up a Toyo 45G monorail for about $150, and it's been fun to play with, to satisfy my LF curiosity, but I haven't seriously shot with it.

Another big consideration to research in advance is - how/where will you get the film developed? Will you be happy with the timescales and price?
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on November 18, 2010, 05:48:16 am
When I recently started again developing (120, not sheet) film I bought a dark cloth changing bag and am very happy with it.
No need for a darkroom anymore - the rest, after film development is scanning and digital.
Color Film I give to a lab.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: ced on November 18, 2010, 06:28:56 am
Fred I think 4x5 and larger are overkill today and will kill you carrying that equipment into the field too, (not to mention the pain in dealing with the film these days).
The 6x9 format has the same feel and slower pace as the big ones but lighter and more compact.
The 6x9 gives you the possibility to work with sheet or roll film and adapts perfectly to digital formats around right now.
I think it will be years before digital gets to the larger formats at the price one can afford.
The key is precision, stability and simplicity in the optics and the system. Price should not be the only factor in your decision process.
Here is an example, though there are other systems too:
http://tomwestbrook.com/Photography/arca_swiss.html
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Pages/arca_core.html
http://www.galerie-photo.com/misura_peronne_us.html

Good luck in your direction.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on November 18, 2010, 06:36:18 am
Fred I think 4x5 and larger are overkill today and will kill you carrying that equipment into the field too, (not to mention the pain in dealing with the film these days).
The 6x9 format has the same feel and slower pace as the big ones but lighter and more compact.
The 6x9 gives you the possibility to work with sheet or roll film and adapts perfectly to digital formats around right now.
I think it will be years before digital gets to the larger formats at the price one can afford.
The key is precision, stability and simplicity in the optics and the system. Price should not be the only factor in your decision process.
Here is an example, though there are other systems too:
http://tomwestbrook.com/Photography/arca_swiss.html
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Pages/arca_core.html
http://www.galerie-photo.com/misura_peronne_us.html

Good luck in your direction.

+1

Thats why I'm planning to get an Arca Swiss F-Line metric 4*5", but with a 6*9 and a 6*12 film back. I know theres a 6*9 version, but 6*12 is tempting and the 4*5" is not much more bulk. The days of my Mamiya Universal are counted....
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: ondebanks on November 18, 2010, 06:50:14 am
+1

Thats why I'm planning to get an Arca Swiss F-Line metric 4*5", but with a 6*9 and a 6*12 film back. I know theres a 6*9 version, but 6*12 is tempting and the 4*5" is not much more bulk. The days of my Mamiya Universal are counted....

Christoph, one of the reasons I chose the Toyo 45G was that I already had a large Mamiya Universal system, so I picked up a Toyo "quick roll slider" which uses the Mamiya Press 6x9 backs on the 4x5 camera. (Note that Type 3 Press backs won't work with the slider: their built-in shutter release sticks out too far).

Ray
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Gigi on November 18, 2010, 06:58:34 am
There is something elemental and pure about shooting large format: the controls are just what you need, and the ability to shift and rise give a simple precision that is lacking (!) in smaller formats. I shoot with 4x5 collapsible  and have also used a 6x12 back on it for roll convenience when I want it.

That said, I haven't used it in a while, but would be hard pressed to give it up. Was thinking about it the other day tho. Go figure. Keep going.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on November 18, 2010, 07:06:28 am
Christoph, one of the reasons I chose the Toyo 45G was that I already had a large Mamiya Universal system, so I picked up a Toyo "quick roll slider" which uses the Mamiya Press 6x9 backs on the 4x5 camera. (Note that Type 3 Press backs won't work with the slider: their built-in shutter release sticks out too far).

Ray

And these old dinosauruses 6x9 backs are well-known for excellent film flatness ....
Still I'm going to switch. I think in January, after my Mallorca stay I'll start selling,
since I won't adapt my Universal lenses to the 4x5" camera - I want complete movements.

I still wonder what I will get as a street camera then - maybe just use this old Minolta 35 mm film camera I inherited a while ago ... oops - I'm digressing ....
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: UlfKrentz on November 18, 2010, 07:22:13 am
Fred,

Being in Europe, you might find a cheap sinar these days, too. Their system is modular, you can always use parts of a simple camera like the f if you decide to "dive in" the system later. If not, you´ll probably be able to sell it for about what you have to pay now. Most 4x5 cameras (all?) will accept a digital back because they use an international adaptor. You could also use roll film holders for 6x7 or 6x9. I like the sinar lenses (AFAIK Sironar=Rodenstock), Nikon LF lenses are very good, too. Both provide a high contrast. You will have to decide, which shutter to use. If you work in the field or for short lenses I would recommend a lens with build in shutter, although the sinar mechanical copal shutter does work very well, once you are used to it it is very comfortable. LF is nice to work with, nearly all of our still work is done with it, although we don´t use film anymore...

Cheers, Ulf
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 18, 2010, 09:34:34 am
Do yourself a favor and get a monorail, preferably a reasonably light one ...

Well, Fred... I know you like the climate in Spain, and you have a job there, but you could team-up with me, and assist me with/use P3/86H/Apo-Digitars & H4D-60, and have use of my comprehensive P2 system with lenses 47-900mm.

Quote
Being in Europe, you might find a cheap sinar these days, too. Their system is modular, you can always use parts of a simple camera like the f if you decide to "dive in" the system later.

Might seem a good idea, but £1,000 for a P2 is the tip of the iceberg, and by the time you have the LC shutter, sliding back, P3 converter etc. it is £10,000, then it is another £20,000 for a top digiback, and £20,000 for a set of Apo-Digitars with eShutters.

... or you can accumulate (most of) this kit over several years from eBay, as I have done.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Fritzer on November 18, 2010, 09:53:43 am
Fred, I agree with the suggestions to try a monorail LF camera, in particular Sinar - are you going to shoot digital with it ?

In that case, skip the F/F2 models, they are a bit too weak in the rear for sliding adapters.
I don't know your budget, but I got a couple of Sinar P2 a few years ago for under 1000 euros each, even cheaper now.

Monorails in general are great to get to down to the very basics of photographic technology, and using them is not hard at all.
Do a little reading on the movements and the rest is pretty self-explanatory with those things.

Rodenstock, Schneider and Nikon all make very good lenses; don't by too old (over 10yrs or so) or cheap, these might not work well or at all with digital backs .
And the resale value for decent LF lenses is amazingly good.

As you work as an assistant (?), try and find a nice still life photographer you can work with, and you'll learn the basics in no time.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: TMARK on November 18, 2010, 11:01:16 am
Fred,

Assuming you want to shoot film, I'd go with a Sinar P.  Modular, cheap-ish, one of the best view cameras made.  Accessories are readily available.  I have a P that was my fathers.  I've been shooting it since 1990. I added bellows, wide angle bellows, extension rails, hoods, masks, binocular viewer, binocular reflex viewer, 8x10 format changing kit, etc etc.  For less than $2000 US you can have an amazing, versitile set up.  Or go even cheaper and get a Sinar F2, although they are flimsy feeling.

With my P I can shoot anything:  Macro, portraiture (which is what I mainly shoot), landscape, architecture, from 8x10 down to 6x6 if you get the proper back.

Lenses:  I like Rodenstock and the Caltar II-N branded Rodenstocks.  I have some Schneiders now, and the jury is still out on them.  For portraits in 4x5 I use anything from a 135 Symar-S, a 150 Caltar II-N, or a 210 super symar.  For 8x10 portraits I use a Geortz Dagor, which is like a 280mm. For architecture, strictly a hobby, I use a 115 6.8 Grandagon MC, a 90 F8 Super Angulon, and a 120 F8 Nikkor, which is one of the best lenses every made.

Shoot color and take it to a lab.  If you find you don't like large format, sell it for ewhat you paid for it.

I like to scan.  A V700 or V750 makes decent 11x14's from 4x5.  I use the Epson for proofs, really, or to provide a reference for pre-press. I, or a client, has drum scans made of final selects.

One thing:  Get a polaroid back.  Use it with the Fuji films, and learn that way.  Instant feedback.  Like digital but you have an artifact to keep in a shoebox for 20 years.

As an aside, I had a project to shoot architecture, commissioned by my father.  I bought an Arca Swiss F line and leather bag bellows.  Perfect kit.  The entire kit (lenses, dark cloth, camera, rail, film holders, meter, polaroud back, 6x9 back, fuji film, loupe etc fit in two Tenba Metro Pack shoulder bags.  Very managable for working from a car or a Rock 'n' Roller.  I didn't use the Sinar because it is too big and heavy for an extended project.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 18, 2010, 11:17:57 am
Well, Fred... I know you like the climate in Spain, and you have a job there, but you could team-up with me, and assist me with/use P3/86H/Apo-Digitars & H4D-60, and have use of my comprehensive P2 system with lenses 47-900mm.

Might seem a good idea, but £1,000 for a P2 is the tip of the iceberg, and by the time you have the LC shutter, sliding back, P3 converter etc. it is £10,000, then it is another £20,000 for a top digiback, and £20,000 for a set of Apo-Digitars with eShutters.

... or you can accumulate (most of) this kit over several years from eBay, as I have done.

Just come back from a shooting day, it was cahotic but fun. 6 models at the same time. Then lunch with the brooker, stylist and his assistant, model and my boss. A nice day.

Opened the Lu-Lu and saw all your answers. Thanks a lot guys, I now have to read them quietly (and at these precise moment I have construction workers in the studio that are putting such a noise that I'm going crazy).

Dick, your offer is very tempting! I'd love it. The spanish climate is not something I value as much as before. Madrid is very limited in many aspects.
I really don't know how could I assist you, my knowledge in LF is absolute zero. ;D
I would be a burden for quite a while until I get use to it, but you'd like my french accent! Anyway, assisting is the best school and learning close to an experienced master in real field goes very fast indeed.

That was the "old school" and the only way a painter could learn before until they did those silly fine arts schools. I really beleive in that path.

I'm open and free. (actually I was thinking leaving Spain soon or later) There is nothing really that blocks me here.

Cheers.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on November 18, 2010, 11:28:34 am
And just for not missing a classic:

Ansel Adams: "The Camera"

Cheers
 ::)
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 18, 2010, 12:13:54 pm
Dick, your offer is very tempting! I'd love it. The spanish climate is not something I value as much as before. Madrid is very limited in many aspects.
I really don't know how could I assist you, my knowledge in LF is absolute zero. ;D
I would be a burden for quite a while until I get use to it, but you'd like my french accent! Anyway, assisting is the best school and learning close to an experienced master in real field goes very fast indeed.

That was the "old school" and the only way a painter could learn before until they did those silly fine arts schools. I really beleive in that path.

I'm open and free. (actually I was thinking leaving Spain soon or later) There is nothing really that blocks me here.

Cheers.
I am master of nothing, and we would be mutually-supportive: most of what I have to offer is use of my kit.

I am working towards  3/4 systems: Sinar P + P2/LF, Sinar P3/86H, Hasselblad H4D-60(/P3), and I would not be using all of them all the time.

If your day job was to be fashion photography based in the UK Midlands, would your contacts help?

I am posting this on the forum and not as a PM, as there may be other forum members that might contemplate working with me.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 18, 2010, 03:21:31 pm
I am master of nothing, and we would be mutually-supportive: most of what I have to offer is use of my kit.

I am working towards  3/4 systems: Sinar P + P2/LF, Sinar P3/86H, Hasselblad H4D-60(/P3), and I would not be using all of them all the time.

If your day job was to be fashion photography based in the UK Midlands, would your contacts help?

I am posting this on the forum and not as a PM, as there may be other forum members that might contemplate working with me.
Dick, That's exactly the way I understood your post. I was half kidding with the use of "master", it's so abstract and potentially pretencious that I rather use, experienced in...
Mutual collaboration, support is indeed the way I see the things in general.
That's funny, With the photographer I assist, I am in a different situation that the other assistants in the sense that I never wanted to be the assistant of someone, I use the term for practical reasons here but it's not exactly the relation we have. We collaborate on a larger scale than the shooting and tech tasks.
I've always liked the cooperation. Therefore I have almost all the freedom I want and I know when I can use it or when it's convenient not to.

It's very possible actually that in the next months, I shall appear in London. Maybe there will be some move there, something happened in that sense just last week.
I know very well England. I've always liked it a lot and to be honest I'm thinking more and more about a move over there.
But those are speculations for now until the reality tells it is there, and I will let you know in that case.

Contacts? yes indeed, that's the most important. I met my boss because of a contact, a photographer that I worked with, much smaller structure, and he was happy with me and recommended me. That's how I entered. Step by step I'm doing contacts, knowing the "rules" the right and wrong people etc...

I'm very much in your idea of giving-receiving. I'll let you know for sure about England if something happen in that sense.

Also, that would be great if other forum members might contemplate to work with you. Best luck.

Cheers.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 18, 2010, 03:27:56 pm
Fred,

Assuming you want to shoot film, I'd go with a Sinar P.  Modular, cheap-ish, one of the best view cameras made.  Accessories are readily available.  I have a P that was my fathers.  I've been shooting it since 1990. I added bellows, wide angle bellows, extension rails, hoods, masks, binocular viewer, binocular reflex viewer, 8x10 format changing kit, etc etc.  For less than $2000 US you can have an amazing, versitile set up.  Or go even cheaper and get a Sinar F2, although they are flimsy feeling.

With my P I can shoot anything:  Macro, portraiture (which is what I mainly shoot), landscape, architecture, from 8x10 down to 6x6 if you get the proper back.

Lenses:  I like Rodenstock and the Caltar II-N branded Rodenstocks.  I have some Schneiders now, and the jury is still out on them.  For portraits in 4x5 I use anything from a 135 Symar-S, a 150 Caltar II-N, or a 210 super symar.  For 8x10 portraits I use a Geortz Dagor, which is like a 280mm. For architecture, strictly a hobby, I use a 115 6.8 Grandagon MC, a 90 F8 Super Angulon, and a 120 F8 Nikkor, which is one of the best lenses every made.

Shoot color and take it to a lab.  If you find you don't like large format, sell it for ewhat you paid for it.

I like to scan.  A V700 or V750 makes decent 11x14's from 4x5.  I use the Epson for proofs, really, or to provide a reference for pre-press. I, or a client, has drum scans made of final selects.

One thing:  Get a polaroid back.  Use it with the Fuji films, and learn that way.  Instant feedback.  Like digital but you have an artifact to keep in a shoebox for 20 years.

As an aside, I had a project to shoot architecture, commissioned by my father.  I bought an Arca Swiss F line and leather bag bellows.  Perfect kit.  The entire kit (lenses, dark cloth, camera, rail, film holders, meter, polaroud back, 6x9 back, fuji film, loupe etc fit in two Tenba Metro Pack shoulder bags.  Very managable for working from a car or a Rock 'n' Roller.  I didn't use the Sinar because it is too big and heavy for an extended project.
Tmark,

Reading your post, you seems to be using (or prefering) film to digital for LF. Am I right? or is it just an interpretation of your post. If so, what are your reasons?
Yes, about film, I have the intention to take a lab. I don't think I'd scan either.

Cheers.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 18, 2010, 04:52:45 pm
It's very possible actually that in the next months, I shall appear in London. Maybe there will be some move there, something happened in that sense just last week.
I know very well England. I've always liked it a lot and to be honest I'm thinking more and more about a move over there.
Cheers.
I am between Stratford-upon-Avon and Banbury, between Oxford, Birmingham and Bristol, and two or three hours from London... let me know when you are coming to England.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 18, 2010, 05:41:09 pm
OMG, that was very technical, sorry. I hate it if I sound like a little know it all. There is even more to say about this, but I don't want to write a book.


Best,
Johannes
It was interesting indeed. As long as you don't upload mystical graphics jpegs I'm happy
Sander, yes.
I'm actually convinced that it's possible to do wonderfull fashion with LF, but not in a commercial assignment but fashion to it's pure artistic commercial free expression.
As models move slowly anyway, and more experienced they are more easy it will be with a LF. Distance is exactly in between 1 and 10 meters.

Cheers.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: TMARK on November 18, 2010, 05:52:00 pm
Johannes,

Thanks!  Your explanation matches my practice.  I've been shooting an architecture project on 4x5 and 6x7 with a Mamiya 7, and on images with distant elements, there is little or no difference in look, using the same film.

As to Burtenski and Gursky not as affected by a switch to digital because of the subject distances, I do buy that.  I's like to see how Alec Soth's 645 digital files look as opposed to his 8x10 work.  I think his work will look entirely different.

And Fred, I favor film over digital for large format because of the look.  If I shot buildings for a living I'd do so digitally, but in the end its just a 645 (max) sensor.  The only reason I'd use a digital monorail camera would be for movements and the better lenses, but the images would look identical to a MF camera using the same back.  I know I know, the made-for-digital lenses from our German friends are superior, but I'm talking look, not res or minor color differences.  
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Policar on November 18, 2010, 08:54:09 pm
How does lens breathing significantly change the image?  I doubt something taken with a Leica rangefinder at f1 would look that much different from the same shot taken with a 300mm 8x10 at f8--other than grain structure, etc.  With a great lens you can get shallow focus on smaller formats.

While I own a field camera and can't really understand why anyone would need more movements at the cost of portability, all this talk makes me want an 8x10 monorail...
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 19, 2010, 04:22:45 am
One remark about lenses: Lenses for smaller formats are much more corrected for spherical aberration than LF lenses. Consequently LF lenses have a nicer transition from sharp to unsharp and their bokeh is less harsh.

OMG, that was very technical, sorry. I hate it if I sound like a little know it all. There is even more to say about this, but I don't want to write a book.

Best,
Johannes

The most spherical-aberration free device you can put on a camera is a pinhole, and large format non-retro-focus, non-tele "normal" lenses are more like a pinhole than most "Lenses for smaller formats" You do not need to correct aberrations that do not occur!
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 19, 2010, 05:54:27 am
It will depend a lot on what it is you want as a finished picture. If as I suspect at the moment it is a bit of exploring photography, I would stick with 5x4. There is lots of choice in gear but more importantly in film. A folding flatbed is very versatile, make sure if you are buying off e-bay it takes the modern darkslides.
I know e-bay is a good place to buy, but I think you need a bit of knowledge to ask the correct questions.
I would get over to http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ where there is a goldmine of experience and equipment for sale.

Kevin.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: yaya on November 19, 2010, 05:57:40 am
Just saw this (http://markmannphoto.blogspot.com/2010/11/leaf-back-on-graflexand-crown-graphic.html?spref=fb)
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 19, 2010, 06:01:03 am
I would not get to hung-up about the latest lenses etc, most LF optics from 50 years ago and beyond are very capable of top quality results. The same with a camera at this stage, providing it is light tight, takes a film holder and will focus your lens you will be 90% there.

Kevin.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 19, 2010, 11:36:41 am
I would not get to hung-up about the latest lenses etc, most LF optics from 50 years ago and beyond are very capable of top quality results. The same with a camera at this stage, providing it is light tight, takes a film holder and will focus your lens you will be 90% there.

Kevin.




You're right, Kevin. In the early 60s I used to print from 4x5 film and glass plate, shots of whole jet engines, and the detail at almost any magnification the darkroom could handle was extraordinary. As was the tonality. And tonality, I believe, is something that matters to Fred, even if he does like white faces like John French used to do so well. ¡Olé!

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 20, 2010, 04:42:37 am
Yes, I love those whitish scotish girls skins! Why have you left Scotland Rob ?!? Actually, I'm doing some fashion testings for my personal book with completly washed faces. Watched again the Lindberg movie http://www.peterlindbergh.com/#FILMS/15, Have you noticed that all his models have strong personality but I'm particularly impressed by Vera Lehndorff in the end. What a character!



Short answer:

a. I brought my Scottish girl with me;

b. she, like myself, preferred the tanned look to the misty paste - so much healthier, on the face of it (groan), but so, so damaging to the skin after many years. My mother always used to tell us both that. Now, I could give Keef Witchards a run for his lines.

Have you noticed that all his models have strong personality but I'm particularly impressed by Vera Lehndorff in the end. What a character!

I give up: the short answer will never do!

Yes, of course they have character, that's why they can offer their art in response to the photographer's own, which is why I claim that that kind of work is creative whereas landscape can't ever be as long as it consists of framing the view. That's a skill, but hardly an art; it's virtually passive at the moment of conception, like a sleeping, drunken, drugged rape.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Zenny on November 20, 2010, 05:56:09 pm
Very interesting thread with immensely useful pointers to LF from the experienced!!! Love it!!! Would love to read further!!!

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 21, 2010, 03:40:31 am
Very interesting thread with immensely useful pointers to LF from the experienced!!! Love it!!! Would love to read further!!!

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***


Stay tuned, baby, stay tuned!

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Fritzer on November 21, 2010, 02:30:40 pm
You lads made me just buy a Sinar Norma - shame on you ... ;)
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: ced on November 22, 2010, 08:01:07 am
"You lads made me just buy a Sinar Norma - shame on you ... Wink"

How and on what are you going to use it?
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 22, 2010, 08:21:27 am
Probably on Norma.

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Fritzer on November 22, 2010, 10:17:33 am
No saucy remarks , please !
I'm not sure Fred is old enough to hear that . ;)
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 22, 2010, 01:29:21 pm
he he...going LF is not to make landscapes neither concrete and glass in my mind  ;D



Big Normas, then?

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 22, 2010, 05:18:18 pm
Thank you for this clear and nice example Johannes. And with a human being! I apreciate that.

Cheers.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Zenny on November 22, 2010, 06:24:30 pm
@Johannes, thanks for the visually-enlightening example with a live girl. The example inspired me to go for LF from MF and 35mm.

What about Sinar P and Sinar F? Are they good LF camera? Is there any pointer about the prices of LF cameras including lenses?

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Adrian Roy on November 23, 2010, 08:44:52 am
Here is a picture for you to compare the size of a 10 x 8 (Peco Universal III) with the Contax 645.

If you are looking to get a monorail, then I would also recommend the Sinar Norma, you could pick one up with a couple of lenses easily for under 500 euro. Then if you got on with the camera could purchase a 10 x8 rear standard for a couple of hundred euro.

One thing to bear in mind is the cost & weight of the 10 x 8 film holders. 12 film holders weigh just under 10kg and cost between 25 - 40 euro 2nd hand. 80 euro new.

Adrian



Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 23, 2010, 09:43:15 am
There is a big range in price, I bought a made in India folding 5x7 field camera for I think £150. 'ish, then fitted a Sinar Norma 5x7 back which came with it. I bought a 1870 brass lens which was supposed to cover only 3x4, I use it stopped down at f100 and something and it covers 5x7 very nicely, it's also very sharp. I think about £60. bought that lens. My 305 mm Kodak portrait lens from about 1950 was £350. I think that is the most I have spent on a lens. Some I bought taking a chance the shutter could be cleaned/repaired for very little money indeed.
I would stress if you are new to film, feeding a LF is expensive and the bigger the format the bigger the cost. I would go as far as to say getting a 6x9 with a roll back is a good place to start or a 5x4 with a roll back. You have all the movements without anywhere near the cost for film.
Chances are you will want to try B&W and process yourself, although darkroom equipment is seen as cheap and given away, it never works out that way when you want it and no point in skimping on a cheap poor quality enlarger if you want to try wet prints. In fact I think the enlarger choice will have more effect on the output than the camera if wet prints is your goal. A sturdy even light that takes any future format you might use in good condition can still fetch a reasonable sum, say £200 plus.
Seriously, if you have not shot film or LF before stay clear of the tempting 10x8 or bigger cameras, 5x4 or smaller is the way to go for now.

Kevin.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 23, 2010, 11:41:25 am
Sorry Kevin, let me add my point of view. "Nothing Personal" ;-)
In my opinion 8x10 is the King/Queen for Portrait/People/Fashion if you go LF - for anything else I would not use LF at the moment. Check whether your hero photographers use/used LF and whether it is still necessary to get the look you want. I tried to describe it above what I mean with this.
I work hybrid. Develop the film an scan it. A 8x10 inch enlarger and equipment to make big prints is really big and costs money and is very time consuming. On the other side the development of film with the Jobo 3005 Drum and a CPA or CPP processor is easy and quick for bw, C41 and E6.
I photographed this year already 30 people in black and white. In the beginning I gave the film to a (good) lab but quickly started to develop myself. After 80 sheets of film I reached the return on investment for the Jobo tank and processor. And you can control your negatives so much better.
But be sure you want/need this for your images. Without that it is a nice hobby to kill time - even a form of mediation or something that a photographer should do once in his life.
You know this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIZ_S38A_0&feature=related

Best,
Johannes
Johannes,
I do not disagree with you one bit. but to get to the level you are at takes a lot of time and practice, you can practice all those things at smaller and cheaper level than 10x8, wasting 5x4 sheets is bad enough, 10x8 is four times worse. Just loading a sheet of film in a holder the right way, remembering to change round the sheath to not double expose, closing the lens, cocking the shutter, locking the movements etc all those basics you do out of habit takes some learning. I say learn on 5x4 and save a packet.

Cheers,

Kevin.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 23, 2010, 12:35:56 pm
You are asking for 8x10 cameras? I like Sinar. I use them for more than 20 years (first a 4x5 f1, now as described 8x10 p2 and Norma). But they are not so "portable" (in my opinion it is no hiking camera) - but very modular and easy to find on ebay. And the Copal behind the lens shutter with automatic cable that closes the lens and stops down, when you insert a film holder are very comfortable. For a working system you have to invest a minimum of 1000-2000 Euro: Camera, Lens, Filmholders. The real weight comes not from the camera but from the film holders. And the expenses come form the film and the development: bw (film 3-6 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 8-15 Euro per click) color (film 10-16 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 15-25 Euro per click). You should really consider to develop yourself. That is not too difficult and something where you easily save money (4-8 Euro per click).

If you look for a light system, you can consider this camera: http://www.argentumcamera.com/eng/pages/cameras/excursor_eng.htm
I haven't touched it so far, but I'm very interested in it.

Best,
Johannes
Those cameras are made by Argentum are simply beautifull!

Actually, my interest for 8x10 is of course fashion and people. Yes, it's like meditation, and that's why I also probably want it. In this overspeed and crazy digital world this is a very interesting alternative to have.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Audii-Dudii on November 23, 2010, 02:10:40 pm
Check out Joel Sternfeld's work, as he often shoots people with an 8x10 ... street photography, even!  In fact, it was seeing his images that convinced me to move up from 2x3 and 4x5 to 8x10, with a Toyo 810G studio camera, of all things.  For many years, I was able to find outdated color transparency film for $1/sheet or less, which worked out well from a budgetary perspective, but it's become almost impossible to find these days because nobody is buying it in any quantity any more.  :-(
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: bcooter on November 24, 2010, 05:19:26 am
I don't think there is a better way to learn photography, than using an 8x10 camera.  It teaches you how to see outside of the camera, compose and treat each frame as something worthwhile.

Saying that and with respect to the artists mentioned, I don't believe there is an inch of difference between shooting an 8x10 camera and one of today's modern or almost modern digital backs.

This week we were doing an image search through one of our servers and came upon some old 8x10 film drum scans.  Beautiful scans, very nice look, but looking at them close the only difference I saw was the slight grain, which can easily be added in post.

Large film may seem romantic and to some galleries and collectors more "pure", but I think at this stage in photography film is more of a romantic notion of the past than it is any real artistic of technical improvement.

The only think I know that film does easier (short of having a lab process it), is when you put strong light behind a subject film tends to wrap smoother and seems to have less of an abrupt cut off than digital.  the only other plus I see from film of any format is  . . . well actually I don't.

Even if you shoot film 99.999% are still going into the digital domain and require photoshop, then purposed either back out in a chemical or ink jet print.    In fact of many of the fine artists film photographers everyone mentions, more than you would every know place their images in retouching and then output to a wet print.  They may not admit it in a press release, but I've seen it time and again.

Once again, shoot with the camera you like,. enjoy and learn from the process, but remember it's only the final image that matters, not the capture device.

(http://ishotit.com/star.jpg)

IMO.

BC

Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 24, 2010, 08:39:34 am
I bet you did not start photography shooting 10x8. We have a generation that thinks film is a new exciting path in their photography, we were brought up with film from the beginning, our first cameras took film. 10x8 is certainly the deepest of deep ends to jump into when learning about film and LF. If money is not a factor then 10x8 is fine to learn on, if money is a consideration 5x4 and a roll back will save a great deal of money while ironing out the 101 basic mistakes he is going to make many times over.

Kevin. :-)
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Dick Roadnight on November 24, 2010, 11:02:07 am
I don't think there is a better way to learn photography, than using an 8x10 camera.
My father used to say that he could not understand how anyone could be a good car driver if they had not driven a pony and trap... and we must try to convince ourselves that it should be possible to become a good digital photographer without have first used film?

It is quicker to learn digital, as you get instant feedback, but not necessarily better.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 24, 2010, 11:09:44 am
I was reading in a french website dedicated to LF, http://www.galerie-photo.com/index.html
that the idea that LF is slow and somewhat "religious" is not true. The guy was explaining that in most shooting situations the time, elements like lightning... change very quickly, a few minutes and it's over. So they where pointing that speed in operation is actually something that LF photographers are very concern.


Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 24, 2010, 02:51:21 pm
Well, I used film all my life, and I can say the thought of going back to 4x5 is horrendous!

We used it almost exclusively in the industrial unit, sometimes going larger, and also a little bit in my first commercial job, but if you ask my opinion, which no one did, I'd say anyone thinking of 'starting' with 8x10 would be better starting with a visit to their local mental heath centre. Forget it.

If you really feel you want film, go no larger than one of the 120 roll formats; it'll give you anything you realistically imagine you can do. Should you someday feel the hand of the good goddess Gallerie on your shoulder (or in your pants) then yes, if she promises more for 8x10, rent and try her out...

You can be as deliberate, slow and/or anal as you like with any camera.

Rob C

Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 24, 2010, 03:04:12 pm
Well, I used film all my life, and I can say the thought of going back to 4x5 is horrendous!

We used it almost exclusively in the industrial unit, sometimes going larger, and also a little bit in my first commercial job, but if you ask my opinion, which no one did, I'd say anyone thinking of 'starting' with 8x10 would be better starting with a visit to their local mental heath centre. Forget it.

If you really feel you want film, go no larger than one of the 120 roll formats; it'll give you anything you realistically imagine you can do. Should you someday feel the hand of the good goddess Gallerie on your shoulder (or in your pants) then yes, if she promises more for 8x10, rent and try her out...

You can be as deliberate, slow and/or anal as you like with any camera.

Rob C



I understand your point Rob.

But thinking about it, isn't it like chasing a fat girl? If you have fat girl fantasy I'd say go for the real fat one and not just the curvly. No... no...this is not a good example.
Ok, if you want a Texan lady, isn't it better going directly for the most Texan one? But what's the most texan one then? doesn't work either.

If LF is an hassle anyway, why not making directly the hassle with the bigger? Qui peut le plus peut le moins, but the opposite is not necessary true.
I think this one works.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Rob C on November 24, 2010, 05:22:15 pm
I understand your point Rob.

But thinking about it, isn't it like chasing a fat girl? If you have fat girl fantasy I'd say go for the real fat one and not just the curvly. No... no...this is not a good example.
Ok, if you want a Texan lady, isn't it better going directly for the most Texan one? But what's the most texan one then? doesn't work either.

If LF is an hassle anyway, why not making directly the hassle with the bigger? Qui peut le plus peut le moins, but the opposite is not necessary true.
I think this one works.



Not a good idea, Fred: it leads à la recherche du temps perdu...

Also, dating the fat girl makes you spend more in restaurants - better by far to date the simply curvy one who will eat less and reward you for buying more champagne instead, which if you don't drink it yourself, really, really pays dividends; you can look upon it as an investment in, well, time, a good one.

Rob C
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 25, 2010, 04:12:43 am
I understand your point Rob.

But thinking about it, isn't it like chasing a fat girl? If you have fat girl fantasy I'd say go for the real fat one and not just the curvly. No... no...this is not a good example.
Ok, if you want a Texan lady, isn't it better going directly for the most Texan one? But what's the most texan one then? doesn't work either.

If LF is an hassle anyway, why not making directly the hassle with the bigger? Qui peut le plus peut le moins, but the opposite is not necessary true.
I think this one works.


Rob is right,
 besides forget fat girls or Texan ones etc stick with cameras. I can understand the desire for a big sexy 10x8, I can understand the desire to hold your own 10x8 neg in hand, they really are a thing of beauty, it just is there is a lot to learn to get to that thing of beauty in your hand. I do not know how much experience you have with film, even shooting roll film there is a lot to learn, not difficult but a lot. You might decide the work and effort you need to put into it does not justify the results, or you might fall in love with the whole process. A suck and see approach could save a lot of mental anguish and expense. If someone came to me and wanted to learn about film I would point them towards a TLR, a simple camera with the discipline of one lens, nothing much to think about other than the image on the screen. And a vintage Rolleiflex ( http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROLLEIFLEX-TLR-3-5E-75mm-3-5-Planar-Case-/370380993906?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item563c6d7572#ht_500wt_922 ) is a thing of beauty and sexy to me, but what do I know, I like my Girls on the skinny side of fat.
Kevin.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Policar on November 25, 2010, 12:49:08 pm
Get exactly what you want.  If it's too much you can move down (4x5) if it's too little you can move up to ULF.  It won't be too little.

Shooting large format isn't so much "hard" as it is "easy to screw up" until you get the hang of it, which I still haven't.  Worth practicing on something that doesn't move first, though.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: fredjeang on November 25, 2010, 04:48:41 pm
In terms of working experience with film and darkroom, I have a background from my fine arts period, where I was working exclusivly with MF film (Mamiya) and huge enlargements.
I've been trained by Balthasar Burkhard that unfortunatly passed away this year, a gran format master http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_Burkhard who was teaching at that time in the Fine Arts school.
So film developement, dark room is a place where I spent a lot of time during many years. I was doing my B&W and slides myself But I've never put my hand on a LF camera. Never.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: Adrian Roy on November 26, 2010, 12:30:41 am
Fred,

If you already have this much experience with film and working in the darkroom. Then you really have no reason not to give it a try.

If a lonely 48 year old housewife with no photographic training can produce images like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqnVLwRagbs&feature=related then what are you waiting for?

Adrian.
Title: Re: LF how to get into it?
Post by: KevinA on November 26, 2010, 03:33:29 am
In terms of working experience with film and darkroom, I have a background from my fine arts period, where I was working exclusivly with MF film (Mamiya) and huge enlargements.
I've been trained by Balthasar Burkhard that unfortunatly passed away this year, a gran format master http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_Burkhard who was teaching at that time in the Fine Arts school.
So film developement, dark room is a place where I spent a lot of time during many years. I was doing my B&W and slides myself But I've never put my hand on a LF camera. Never.


In that case go for it, you will still waste lots of sheets. Find a jobo drum that will take 10x8 I can't remember the product number but it's the one with chambers like a revolver. If you do B&W the jobo machine for the drum is not necessary at this stage, I've used my drum rolling up and down the table. I found the drum the most reliable easy way to get even consistent dev on sheet film. If you don't have easy access to a dark darkroom you might want to budget for a changing ten.
10x8 makes for beautiful contacts.

Kevin.