Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: OLE.M on October 10, 2010, 05:21:51 am
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Hi.
Anybody knows the difference of the new Epson Stylus Pro 7890 and 7900?
They look the same and have the same inks with PK and MK.
Is it a downgrade and is it going to be cheeper?
Thanks
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Two inks less on the 7890. The same PK/MK switch though. 9 inks on 8 channels for the 7890, 3880 style. 11 inks on 10 channels on the 7900, 4900 style.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Dan Steinhardt (better known as Dano) from Espon America here:
The 7890 will carry a lower price than the 7900 as will the 9890 in comparison to the 9900.
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the 7900/9900 range is the better printer.
my belief is that Epson put the 7890 out there so they can compete with Canon's 6300/8300 on price.
the older head design and fewer nozzles means they have lower production price.
Canon with its economic bubblejet head design is annihilating Epson on price/value/lack of clogs, so they are repackaging older technology at a price point they can at least break even on.
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Hi Ole,
I was at the Photokina and asked Epson how to position the 7900 against the 7890. Their reply was that the extra green and orange ink was only in the 7900 (and 9900) to be able to obtain certain Pantone colors. For them the 7900 is for the proofing market. They were very specific on this.
I asked them whether in a landscape image the green would have a "fresher" look with the 7900/9900 as that ink is already onboard, so you only have to mix that color to get various shades of green. They denied that and went even so far to say that if someone for that reason wanted to buy the 7900 instead of the 7890, they would not recommand that as you have to pay €1.000,- more but would not gain anything from a photographic point of view as the orange and green ink would hardly be used at all.
BTW: There are more differences between the 7880 and the 7890: new printhead (the same as the 7900, though with less channels), new dither algoritms, new LUT tables.
cheers,
Remko
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the 7900/9900 range is the better printer.
my belief is that Epson put the 7890 out there so they can compete with Canon's 6300/8300 on price.
the older head design and fewer nozzles means they have lower production price.
Canon with its economic bubblejet head design is annihilating Epson on price/value/lack of clogs, so they are repackaging older technology at a price point they can at least break even on.
It's not old technology.
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my belief is that Epson put the 7890 out there so they can compete with Canon's 6300/8300 on price.
the older head design and fewer nozzles means they have lower production price.
Then you would be wrong...it's the same head tech as the 79/9900 with 360 nozzles/inch and using the new and improved dither algorithms also found in the 79/9900 printers. So, it ain't "old tech".
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the 7900/9900 range is the better printer.
my belief is that Epson put the 7890 out there so they can compete with Canon's 6300/8300 on price.
the older head design and fewer nozzles means they have lower production price.
Canon with its economic bubblejet head design is annihilating Epson on price/value/lack of clogs, so they are repackaging older technology at a price point they can at least break even on.
Not sure what you mean by "older head design". If you are referring to piezo heads vs bubblejet, both are "old". If you mean older in that they've put the 7880 heads into the new x900 chassis, wrong. All the technology is the same as the 7900 including new heads, better dither. The heads are cheaper to make only because they have less channels of ink. Only difference between the two is the inkset, the expanded gamut of the 11 inks for photographic applications in the x900 printers may rarely offer some improved gamut, but really is designed to help the printer hit pantone colors that are not real world colors. The majority of users do not need those colors, and Epson has consolidated their production line offering those who don't need them a nice upgrade.
As far as the illusion of Canon annihilating epson, interesting idea, but unclear on what you base that. Canon remains a niche player in the large inkjet market, maybe finding a small window in the higher end photo market but still far behind and really not closing on Epson in the large format inkjet market. As a dealer for both (printers are not a product we actively promote, but we still sell a fair number each year), I have yet to have anyone ask about the canon printer. I can't even justify putting a demo on the floor. If Canon wants to sell them they certainly could provide one to run along side the 11880, a 7900, and a 3880 running daily.
Not knocking the Canon ... I've used one extensively. Good printer, and good output, and finally with the new ones it appears they've finally gotten close to Epson with GD and bronzing.
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Not sure what you mean by "older head design". If you are referring to piezo heads vs bubblejet, both are "old". If you mean older in that they've put the 7880 heads into the new x900 chassis, wrong. All the technology is the same as the 7900 including new heads, better dither. The heads are cheaper to make only because they have less channels of ink. Only difference between the two is the inkset, the expanded gamut of the 11 inks for photographic applications in the x900 printers may rarely offer some improved gamut, but really is designed to help the printer hit pantone colors that are not real world colors. The majority of users do not need those colors, and Epson has consolidated their production line offering those who don't need them a nice upgrade.
As far as the illusion of Canon annihilating epson, interesting idea, but unclear on what you base that. Canon remains a niche player in the large inkjet market, maybe finding a small window in the higher end photo market but still far behind and really not closing on Epson in the large format inkjet market. As a dealer for both (printers are not a product we actively promote, but we still sell a fair number each year), I have yet to have anyone ask about the canon printer. I can't even justify putting a demo on the floor. If Canon wants to sell them they certainly could provide one to run along side the 11880, a 7900, and a 3880 running daily.
Not knocking the Canon ... I've used one extensively. Good printer, and good output, and finally with the new ones it appears they've finally gotten close to Epson with GD and bronzing.
If the inclusion of green and orange in the colour pallet has little benefit then why do you suppose they upgraded the 4900 with these two colours and not just fixed the black switching problem alone? Is it just a marketing ploy?
Right now Vistek in Toronto has the 7900 for sale at $3899 can along with a rebate of $1000 was going to wait a while and get a 4900 but now I'll rethink this as its only $400 more for a 24" printer what do you think
Pierre
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If the inclusion of green and orange in the colour pallet has little benefit then why do you suppose they upgraded the 4900 with these two colours and not just fixed the black switching problem alone?
Because there are tons of agencies, design firms and photographers that don't have a need for 24" printers but still need accurate proofing and the ability to hit more spot colours than the 9 colour ink set can reproduce. There's a much bigger world out there than just photo printing.
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With the introduction of the 7900/9900 the printers were praised for the extended gamut, not just for proofing, but for photography and art printing too. By Epson and the reviewers. Check the LL review of the 7900 and the comments in it on the gamut, including its advantage for portraits. In my view it was Epson's answer to the Canon and HP 12 ink models introduced 18 months before the 7900/9900.
The argument then was that the optional Spectroproofer was purely there for the proofing market and no need to include that spectrometer in the package for photography or art printing. The Spectroproofer is an optional item for the 9890 too. Why if it isn't intended for the proofing market?
The arguments seem to shift in time. Not in Epson's docs or ads though, if they can sell both types in 3 or more markets they couldn't care less and that's what I read there. The salesman on the Epson booth may have another opinion or adjust his opinion on his estimation of the customer's wishes. A good salesman acts like that.
I see a higher price and a wider gamut for the 4900/7900/9900 models. Usable for all mentioned jobs.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Not sure about the difference between the two models but the 7900 is a really terrific printer. I just sent one back to Epson (reluctantly) after having it on review for a couple of months. Wonderful B+W, on the Epson Semigloss the blacks are rich and the tones are smooth. Some church interiors I shot look positively luminous with full details right down to around level 4 or 5.
I have a Canon 6300 arriving in a day or so, it will be interesting to compare...
Gotta love these 24" printers, being able to crank out 20"x30" prints is very satisfying.
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Is the 7890 better in any way than my 7800, when you print B/W?
The MK and PK ink inside is of course a must, but the printerqality between the two?
Thanks
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Is the 7890 better in any way than my 7800, when you print B/W?
Well, not in terms of the base K3 Vivid inks, but in terms of speed (almost 2x) and dither, yes. The 7/9890 is using the new thin film piezo and produces finer detail because of the improved dither. So, while for B&W there would be no major differences in tone and color, there would be differences in speed and detail in the prints...
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Well, not in terms of the base K3 Vivid inks, but in terms of speed (almost 2x) and dither, yes. The 7/9890 is using the new thin film piezo and produces finer detail because of the improved dither. So, while for B&W there would be no major differences in tone and color, there would be differences in speed and detail in the prints...
To add to what Schewe said, you also get a faster cutter (that lasts longer as well) in the rotary cutter, you get a spindle-less paper load (it's really easy to handle the media), and a powered paper feed (great for keeping the media properly tensioned, particularly if you feed back), easier/better single sheet loading, too.
Regarding target markets - there are always variations within each segment as to what they want, what their RIPs support (if we're talking proofing) and the cost to upgrade RIPs can come into the equation, too (it may be cheaper to upgrade to a new model with the same inkset than to get a new one for a new inkset) and so on and so on.
The real question to ask is, which printer suits your needs the most and enjoy the fact that there is a significant amount of choice from the various manufacturers.
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Is the 7890 better in any way than my 7800, when you print B/W?
The MK and PK ink inside is of course a must, but the printerqality between the two?
Thanks
Is this a typo? If you are comparing a 7880 to a 7890, then Jeff nailed it.
If on the other hand you really mean a 7800, then the difference is more significant including better print quality and larger gamut, more consistency and although I don't do B&W I think there would be an improvement there.
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...although I don't do B&W I think there would be an improvement there.
Not some much with the inks for B&W, no...very little color is involved so the 7800/7880 would be the same. The difference in the 7890 would be the new head and finer detail.
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this may come as a shock to some of you guys but photographers aren't Epson large formats number one market, proofers are by a long shot.
now the 7880/9880 is getting long in the tooth photographers and proofers who don't need super wide gamut still have a lower priced option in the 7/9890 just in the same was poster printers and CAD can go with the 7/9700. After all what’s the point of buying a 7900 for someone that still only shoots sRGB??
Why keep producing different engines when you can make one that’s configurable for all?
all the same basic engine but tailored to the markets needs make perfect business sense
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After all what’s the point of buying a 7900 for someone that still only shoots sRGB??
It would be a mistake to think that the only benefit of the added Orange and Green is to extend gamut. The extra colours give more options for mixing colours inside the gamut. Green is also optically lighter than Light Cyan which results in smoother B&W rendering (not as bad as it sounds).
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It would be a mistake to think that the only benefit of the added Orange and Green is to extend gamut. The extra colours give more options for mixing colours inside the gamut. Green is also optically lighter than Light Cyan which results in smoother B&W rendering (not as bad as it sounds).
And add better color constancy with changes in illumination if the hue pigments are carefully selected.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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The HDR inkset only uses the K inks, LC, LM and Y. not the O & G in Advance B&W mode. Same HTM as the K3 driver.
the point is if you run a business for quick and dirty prints there's now an option. 99% of these people won't spend the extra on a printer which was designed to hit spot colours when they can use a 8 colour and still get output with surpasses the customers expectations.
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The HDR inkset only uses the K inks, LC, LM and Y. not the O & G in Advance B&W mode.
Look again.
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You’re wrong, but that's not important or worth getting into a discussion about.
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My colleague at Epson America ran a test to confirm which inks are used in the ABW Mode with Ultrachrome HDR.
The test was done with the Default (no tone) setting and the Sepia setting.
The Attached Data Shows:
-The same number of inks are used in the Default (no tone) setting as with the Sepia setting.
-Orange and Green are not used.
One Note Back to the Original Question:
While Orange and Green are not used in the ABW Mode, I have seen color photographs, with a wide color gamut, that have benefited from the Orange and Green inks in the 7900/9900.
Being from Epson its fair to point out some bias on my part, but the differences I've seen are most noticeable with PK vs MK and without exception files have been native Pro Photo RGB.
Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Epson America
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It's the same 2D LUT for ABW.
there's no doubt there's a benefit in having the O&G channels, less guess for for an ICC can only be a good thing.
It's my opinion is 90% of users in the photo/art markets will never hit the limits of the 7/9900 which is where the x890 comes in. K3VM is still an outstanding CcMmYK ink set.
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Here is an enlarged version of the chart showing the ink usage with the ABW Mode
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The test was done with the Default (no tone) setting and the Sepia setting.
You wouldn't expect green to be added in Sepia mode when it's adding its opposite (magenta) to the mix. Try again with the Premium Lustre 260 media type on smooth surfaced paper, set Vertical to 5, and examine the highlight areas with a high powered loupe. Looks like green to me.
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Looks like green to me.
It ain't...
The colors that print in the ABW mode are; LLK, LK and either MK or PK depending on the media and Y, LC and VLM depending on the color toning. Not sure why you refuse to believe Dano. Will you believe me? No green, no orange, at all, ever, when printing in the ABW mode of the Epson driver.
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Looks can be deceiving, which is why Dano posted the data that he did.
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Looks can be deceiving, which is why Dano posted the data that he did.
I'll run a test again the next time I switch to PK. I had another close look with a loupe and maybe I'm mistaken. The dots are damn small! If not, it begs the question why Green isn't being used. Accelerated aging tests look promising for this colour.
While I'm here, I'd like to see ABW updated to something like the following. The current implementation has its limitations.
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It ain't...
The colors that print in the ABW mode are; LLK, LK and either MK or PK depending on the media and Y, LC and VLM depending on the color toning. Not sure why you refuse to believe Dano. Will you believe me? No green, no orange, at all, ever, when printing in the ABW mode of the Epson driver.
At least up to the 9800 range the ABW mode used color inks to create neutral B&W. I wouldn't call that toning. More in the highlights (up to 20%K) than over the rest of the range. I doubt that has changed in the new models given Dano's numbers. The monochrome inks are not neutral by themselves like on the HP Z models but warm. So sepia is created by removing LC, check the numbers in Dano's message.
Gromit didn't mention ABW mode for printing B&W in his first message. I wonder whether the color mode isn't using green and orange when printing neutral greys. There are more cons than pros for that though. The Wasatch Softrip driving HP Z3xx models shows RGB inks together with CMmY inks up to 60% K. when printing in color mode. No need for that at all with neutral monochrome inks, just a lousy N-color driver configuration and too little black generation. On the other hand toning images in B&W mode with the pigment that has the best fade resistance isn't a bad idea.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
spectral plots of +100 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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This thread is very timely!
Today I received an announcement of the 4900 via email. I have been away from photography for awhile and was surprised to see the proliferation of models in the Epson Pro line. This thread was very helpful in coming up to speed.
Does the 4900 add any benefits over the 7900 other than smaller footprint and less cost?
Thanks,
Bruce
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Does the 4900 add any benefits over the 7900 other than smaller footprint and less cost?
Well, other than the fact you can load a bunch of paper in the tray and spit out prints compared to sheet by sheet loading in the 7900, no. The inkset and dither is the same.
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The 4900 is a pretty slick little machine, and represents the consolidation of the new line. With the X900 representing the high end and the x890 representing the lower end line. I was a little surprised to see the X890 announced, but really I think Epson has to respond to the slew of technical printers offered by HP and Canon, and for the proofing, architectural markets, and certainly a number of photographers this will be a pretty compelling printer, and expect these to cannibalize a piece of the x900 market.
While I don't see the 4900 having any published features that would put it in a league above the 79/9900 it does represent a big leap forward. They showed this off at a dealer meeting in spring, and I think they really went back to the drawing board with this one, and while it shares the ink and heads with it's bigger brothers it's really a new machine. It uses new ink carts, and the size has changed to 200ml, and the carts are all now completely internal. Also I expect that the false positive nozzle cleaning should be improved with this model. Also the fact they are offering a spectro with this is a really cool feature.
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Thank you, Jeff and Julian; very helpful.
Bruce
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Also I expect that the false positive nozzle cleaning should be improved with this model.
Just curious as to the reason you believe this. Improved AID circuitry? Did someone at Epson mention this?
Would certainly be nice if it were true (although my 7900 hardly ever triggers a clean now that it gets used on a daily basis).
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New design on the inking system, new capping assy, new AIDS sensor etc.
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Different system components. The degree to which they offer improvements over the 9900 will be shown when the 4900 hits the street. The AID issues have been discussed with some key individuals at Epson and at dealer meetings and Epson has conveyed that they are doing a number of things to improve it. Some adjustments have already been implemented in firmware fixes.