Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: geesbert on September 19, 2010, 03:42:22 pm
-
http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/images/pages/Tilt_Shift_engl.pdf
Man, this is what I was waiting for for years! I am making 95% of my substantial income with a canon 90mm TSE and nearly at every shooting I hate it's shortcomings
Advantages of the Schneider over the Canon:
Tilt and shift axis independantly movable
Macro design (hopefully close range to 1:1)
Lens can be attached to a tripod, not camera
it would be nice if the filter ring wouldn't turn while focussing, but I doubt that.
f4 is a tad slow, but I can live with that...
-
This is good news. I lament the lack of independent tilt/shift function, and a non-circular aperture on the Canon 90 TS-E. Hopefully we'll see these on the marketplace soon.
-
http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/images/pages/Tilt_Shift_engl.pdf
Man, this is what I was waiting for for years! I am making 95% of my substantial income with a canon 90mm TSE and nearly at every shooting I hate it's shortcomings
Why not get a proper Medium Format Digital View Camera?
-
I tried, spent € 30.000 on it, fought with it for months. I really hated it. what a glorious waste of time and resources.
none of my clients saw any quality improvements once printed in a magazine or on a billboard. I challenge anyone to show me the difference.
MF' shortfalls for my kind of work: pathetic live view, pathetic high ISO, pathetic screens which makes them unusable untethered, really tough ROI, prone to technical difficulties, slow workflow, difficult to have backup if not spending another fortune... just to name a few....
on my screen I see a quality improvement for sure, but once it went through post processing and into print I don't see any. and clients don't see it either. at least mine don't, and I am not dealing with small fish.
-
I hope the make one for the Sony Alpha's.
-
At Photokina Schneider's expected to have a 50mm f/2.8 and a 90mm f/4 T/S lens for Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax, and a 28mm 2.8 for Mamiya/Phase One.
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/photokina-2010-Drei-Tilt-Shift-Objektive-von-Schneider-Kreuznach
Schneider Kreuznach stellt auf der photokina mit dem PC-TS Super-Angulon 2,8/50 mm HM und dem PC-TS Makro-Symmar 4,0/90 mm HM zwei neue Tilt-Shift-Objektive mit Anschlüssen für Kleinbildkameras von Canon, Nikon, Sony und Pentax vor. Weiterhin wird das PC-TS Apo-Digitar 5,6/120 mm HM Aspheric für Mittelformatkameras von Mamiya / PhaseOne angekündigt:
Die Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH können auf eine gewisse Tradition zurückblicken, was Tilt- und Shiftobjektive angeht. Da gab es einst das PA-Curtagon 4/35 mm und das PCS Super-Angulon PQ 4,5/55 mm; das Shiftobjektiv PC Super-Angulon 2,8/28 mm ist nach wie vor auf der Webseite gelistet.
Auf der photokina 2010 nun stellt das Bad Kreuznacher Unternehmen drei neue Tilt-Shift-Objektive vor:
* PC-TS Super-Angulon 2,8/50 mm HM
mit Anschlüssen für Canon EOS, Nikon, Sony Alpha, Pentax K
Preis ca. 2.800,00 € (UVP)
* PC-TS Makro-Symmar 4,0/90 mm HM
mit Anschlüssen für Canon EOS, Nikon, Sony Alpha, Pentax K
Preis ca 2.700,00 € (UVP)
* PC-TS Apo-Digitar 5,6/120 mm HM Aspheric
für Mamiya / Phase One
Preis von ca 3.900,00 € (UVP)
-
no wide angle ...
-
2700 is not really a bargain, but schneider Glass never was.
0.6m close focus distance is not too great, though. that means even more fumbling with tubes for me...
-
MF' shortfalls for my kind of work: pathetic live view, pathetic high ISO, pathetic screens which makes them unusable untethered, really tough ROI, prone to technical difficulties, slow workflow, difficult to have backup if not spending another fortune... just to name a few....
on my screen I see a quality improvement for sure, but once it went through post processing and into print I don't see any. and clients don't see it either. at least mine don't, and I am not dealing with small fish.
All good points...
¿Would it not be nice if they did decent colour live view on the back of the digiback (with a magnifying pseudo-SLR type viewer)?
Decent high-ISO on budget MFD would be nice.
"They" seem to be unaware of what the market wants... how about a 20Mpx pseudo-SLR point-and-shoot with built-in movements that you could use with 90 degree lenses?
-
no wide angle ...
Wide angles have short focal lengths, and quality wide angles are as short as their focal lengths (non retro-focus), and they cannot be used on SLRs. (I think there were SLRs on which you could lock up the mirror to allow you to use non-retro-focus WA lenses
See Doug's post (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=46224.msg388880#msg388880)
-
I like that they can be mounted directly to the tripod, IMHO it is much better for stitching. Move the camera back, not the lens. Still need something wider than a 50...
-
MF' shortfalls for my kind of work: pathetic live view, pathetic high ISO, pathetic screens which makes them unusable untethered, really tough ROI, prone to technical difficulties, slow workflow, difficult to have backup if not spending another fortune... just to name a few....
I agree. The few times I've rented a Phase back with a view camera (Sinar), the shutter system seemed like a kludge, sync'ing the Copal shutter to the back. It worked, but for the money I wanted something more integrated, less ghetto. The other thing I didn't like was focusing, and manipulating the tilts & shifts. It was nothing like a 4x5 or 8x10, where a loupe and a hand on the controls quickly placed the plane of focus.
-
All you guys will one day look back at this as the day that the first real nail in the coffin of MFDB
-
All good points...
¿Would it not be nice if they did decent colour live view on the back of the digiback (with a magnifying pseudo-SLR type viewer)?
Decent high-ISO on budget MFD would be nice.
"They" seem to be unaware of what the market wants... how about a 20Mpx pseudo-SLR point-and-shoot with built-in movements that you could use with 90 degree lenses?
MFDB is great to make your clients think that you're good;"you must be good if you can afford the big expensive camera,Its always been like that.
Mind you, Its like that with women too.The better the car the more interest they show.
-
MFDB is great to make your clients think that you're good;"you must be good if you can afford the big expensive camera,Its always been like that.
Mind you, Its like that with women too.The better the car the more interest they show.
Difficult to be selective about the former but there are definitely ladies who don't care about cars. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Related Zoerk goodies [in German] :
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Zu-Besuch-bei-Zoerk
-
Wide angles have short focal lengths, and quality wide angles are as short as their focal lengths (non retro-focus), and they cannot be used on SLRs. (I think there were SLRs on which you could lock up the mirror to allow you to use non-retro-focus WA lenses
That's the conventional wisdom, and it's true to a certain extent; but it doesn't preclude the existence of wide-angle T/S lenses. Canon's latest 17mm and 24mm TE-2's certainly proved that.
Schneider does make a 28mm Super-Angulon PC, but it's shift-only and optically a dud (not to mention massively over-priced given its performance). Frankly, the quality of the 28mm SA-PC doesn't inspire much confidence that these new lenses will be worth their price tag. They may be newer designs but that doesn't necessarily mean they're any better optically than the Nikkor PC-E's.
-
All you guys will one day look back at this as the day that the first real nail in the coffin of MFDB
How do you figure? Tilt/shift lenses are nothing new for 35mm format.
-
I have also been using the Canon TS 90 but its not quite good enough with the close-up macro stuff whereas the 120mm Zeiss on Hasselblad is sharp enough but shooting MFDB is too much of a mission and its too expensive.When Canon brings out its next 1DS mk IV the combination with the Schneider will allow me to never have to shoot MFDB again.
I was convinced that the dynamic range would be better on MFDB so I tried a P25 to compare roughly the same pixels and was surprised that only with the 120mm macro could I notice the diffs.At the moment my 90 with the 5D MKII is not good enough for jewelery but I'm hoping that the Schneider will be as good as the Hasselblad 120mm macro
I did a very brief test here:Let me know your opinion
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=192650&id=753183824&l=a93dd98c3c
-
I have also been using the Canon TS 90 but its not quite good enough with the close-up macro stuff whereas the 120mm Zeiss on Hasselblad is sharp enough but shooting MFDB is too much of a mission and its too expensive.When Canon brings out its next 1DS mk IV the combination with the Schneider will allow me to never have to shoot MFDB again.
I was convinced that the dynamic range would be better on MFDB so I tried a P25 to compare roughly the same pixels and was surprised that only with the 120mm macro could I notice the diffs.At the moment my 90 with the 5D MKII is not good enough for jewelery but I'm hoping that the Schneider will be as good as the Hasselblad 120mm macro
I did a very brief test here:Let me know your opinion
The Hasselblad is very obviously superior,
even with a lowly P25
even well out of the 1:1 comfort zone of the lens (or you cropped)
I am thinking about doing some jewelery photography,
with an H4D-60 and a
Sinar P3 and
Zeiss Luminar Macro lenses and
a Sinar eShutter and
auto bracket focusing...
¿What do you call "good enough"?
-
The Hasselblad is very obviously superior,
even with a lowly P25
even well out of the 1:1 comfort zone of the lens (or you cropped)
I am thinking about doing some jewelery photography,
with an H4D-60 and a
Sinar P3 and
Zeiss Luminar Macro lenses and
a Sinar eShutter and
auto bracket focusing...
¿What do you call "good enough"?
Hey Dick!
The 2 ring shots were 100% so they were both cropped.I shot them both at about the same size in the frame which was a bit tricky so its not totally scientfic.
Here are 2 pics the close ups of earings f22 and the bangle with charm at f16.If I can shoot at f16 I am usually ok but if I need DOF then I have a problem and then its not good enough.My client doesn't really need higher resolution but it offends my desire for perfection to know that it could be sharper.
I have shot jewelery with a LF and MF system and I find that I can't get into small spaces between the softbox and the reflectors and also you mostly see the camera in the convex surfaces so a small camera helps.I have even being considering the micro 4/3 system with the Leitz macro but when I saw this Schneider 90mm lens I knew that it was the answer.
Are you putting a H4D back onto a Sinar P body? Nice! I would love to see results on small apertures.I have seen some unbelievable close-ups from that lens.
-
It seems that you are getting a great deal of diffraction @ f22.
I intend to avoid small apertures by using DOF merge, which (with auto step focusing) might cost a grand, but if I am going to specializing quality macro, it should be worth it.
-
Its like that with women too.The better the car the more interest they show.
:D :D :D
-
MFDB is great to make your clients think that you're good;"you must be good if you can afford the big expensive camera,Its always been like that.
definitely not my experience, they literally don't give a shit about what camera you use, and nearly everybody can't tell a difference between a MF and a large Canon. and they don't care.
anyway, I went to photokina and looked at those lenses.
I have mixed feeling about them.
- they are huge! I'd say impossible to use handheld, which I do quite often with the TSEs.
- at f4 the viewfinder gets quite dark and it is difficult to see the tilt or shift effect. much easier at f2.8, although I hardly ever use that for shooting.
- Aperture is preselect only, no automatic diaphragm, again not good for handheld
- all movements are set by very large rings, and there are a lot of them:
two rings for aperture
one focus ring
one shift ring (which only goes in one direction, which means you have to rotate the whole thing to gor 180° )
one ring to rotate the shift
one tilt ring (again only one direction)
one ring to rotate the tilt mechanism
- the tripod mount is quite flimsy, but they said this will be revised.
- the lens is unchipped, so no focus confirmation yet
- the build quality seems great, I'd say worth the price
- close focus for the 90 is closer than 60cm, I'd say between 50 and 55.
They still have to do their homework, I will look into these lenses once they are out in early 2011. by then I expect the 90mm tse to have a successor, probably introduced at PMA with the new 1ds Mk4
-
I am very satisfied about the Canon TSE 17 and the new TSE24mm.
Hopefully Canon will come soon with a replacement of the TSE45
-
definitely not my experience, they literally don't give a shit about what camera you use, and nearly everybody can't tell a difference between a MF and a large Canon. and they don't care.
Yes you're right actually, as long as you have a sense of humor and know how to use it,they don't really care about the size of your equipment. ;D
-
anyway, I went to photokina and looked at those lenses.
Thanks for the report, Stephan. Mechanically, they don't sound like an improvement worth twice the price of a Canon TS-E. Optically, it may be another story.
My hope is that the improvements that came to the 24mm TS-E (and were integrated into the 17mm), will come to the 45mm & 90mm TS-E.
-
Thought I'd dig up this old thread and see if anyone has tried one of these Schneider lenses, I can't find much of anything on them but noticed an advertisement in one of my photog magazines last night and it got my curiosity going.
My bread and butter lens: http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/2174/PC-E-Micro-NIKKOR-45mm-f%252F2.8D-ED.html
If I ever make some serious bread and butter, I've though about getting one of these: http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_80mm.htm
Anyone using a Schneider dslr TS lens these days?
-
I too have seen some recent magazine ads for these. Apparently they're just starting to ship. B&H doesn't list them, but 17th Street Photo does (http://www.17photo.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWord=pc-ts). The 50mm is for pre-order, they claim to have the 90mm in stock. At those prices, I'm going to want to see some reviews from reputable sources first. Hopefully Lloyd Chambers will get some for review.
-
Thanks Jeff, interesting how 17th Street shows the 90mm in stock, but still no information is available under specifications. I imagine Lloyd Chambers will be checking these out before too much longer, it will be worth keeping an eye on them in the meantime. Not sure I can justify the expense over Nikons TS/PC lenses (nor Canon's lineup for that matter) which have excellent optics and good weather seals, too. But I guess I'll have to leave that assessment to the likes of Mr. Chambers. He gives very positive reviews for the HARTBLEI lineup, but they are near impossible to find in stock as well. I've seen the price for the Hartblei TS 80mm with a Nikon mount at $850, new, on eBay.
Any feedback on the Hartblei lineup is likewise appreciated.
-
The Hartblei - the new Zeiss Superrotator versions - are amazing. They are in a whole different league compared to Nikon and Canon ts-pc versions , both in terms of mechanical quality - precision, and in terms of optical qualities : resolution, rendering style, bokeh stopped down (12 blades) are simply amazing - both on my 40 and 80 Hartblei Zeiss Superrotators. They are definitely on top of the current Zeiss ZF/ZE lineup (at least from 5.6 onwards :))) - 21, 35, 50 MP and 100 MP included :))) ) . I've used all of them extensively on my D3x. They are the best studio lenses you could think of, for 35mm DSLR . And you can definitely use - at least the 80 - handheld (and yes, that 80, from f4 onwards, will put to shame your 85 L or 85 G lens :))) ) .
-
The Hartblei - the new Zeiss Superrotator versions - are amazing. They are in a whole different league compared to Nikon and Canon ts-pc versions , both in terms of mechanical quality - precision, and in terms of optical qualities : resolution, rendering style, bokeh stopped down (12 blades) are simply amazing - both on my 40 and 80 Hartblei Zeiss Superrotators. They are definitely on top of the current Zeiss ZF/ZE lineup (at least from 5.6 onwards :))) - 21, 35, 50 MP and 100 MP included :))) ) . I've used all of them extensively on my D3x. They are the best studio lenses you could think of, for 35mm DSLR . And you can definitely use - at least the 80 - handheld (and yes, that 80, from f4 onwards, will put to shame your 85 L or 85 G lens :))) ) .
Sounds very nice. I can't find the 40 Harblei Zeiss Superrotator anywhere. Any ideas where one can be had?
-
A really nice set of Hartblei Zeiss Superrotators (40 + 80 + a lot of accessories) , from a really good friend of mine, just showed up on ebay. In case anyone is still interested it's totally worth looking at - when I bought mine, I had to buy them new, from Hartblei, as they are very very hard to find used.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/phtbff09/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562
-
Any feedback on the Hartblei lineup is likewise appreciated.
I actually read Lloyd's reviews on the Hartblei Zeiss lenses and came to the conclusion they weren't for me. I don't have a subscription to his site at the moment so I can go back and look for specific reasons, but I seem to recall he was mostly enamored with the bokeh, which wasn't of interest for me. I was most interested in the 40mm, and based on his review I came to the conclusion that with regards to sharpness and distortion it just wasn't enough of an upgrade from my Nikkor PC-E to justify the price. I also didn't like the fact that the shift only works in one direction, requiring rotation to shift in the opposite direction for stitching (and if you use the lens tripod foot, that means rotating your camera upside down).
I would watch out for prices on the Hartblei lenses that seem too good be to be true, there's a good chance you could end up with the old non-Zeiss glass (which wasn't very good at all). The Hartblei-Zeiss three-lens set goes for something like $10K new, so the chances of legitimately picking up one of those lenses for under $1K is unlikely.
The new Schneider lenses also have the one-way shift limitation, which is disappointing. But I'm interested in these lenses due to the huge image circle (considerably larger than most 35-format tilt/shift lenses), since it should mean that sharpness and distortion hold up well even at maximum shift/tilt.
-
I actually read Lloyd's reviews on the Hartblei Zeiss lenses and came to the conclusion they weren't for me. I don't have a subscription to his site at the moment so I can go back and look for specific reasons, but I seem to recall he was mostly enamored with the bokeh, which wasn't of interest for me. I was most interested in the 40mm, and based on his review I came to the conclusion that with regards to sharpness and distortion it just wasn't enough of an upgrade from my Nikkor PC-E to justify the price. I also didn't like the fact that the shift only works in one direction, requiring rotation to shift in the opposite direction for stitching (and if you use the lens tripod foot, that means rotating your camera upside down).
I would watch out for prices on the Hartblei lenses that seem too good be to be true, there's a good chance you could end up with the old non-Zeiss glass (which wasn't very good at all). The Hartblei-Zeiss three-lens set goes for something like $10K new, so the chances of legitimately picking up one of those lenses for under $1K is unlikely.
The new Schneider lenses also have the one-way shift limitation, which is disappointing. But I'm interested in these lenses due to the huge image circle (considerably larger than most 35-format tilt/shift lenses), since it should mean that sharpness and distortion hold up well even at maximum shift/tilt.
As far as Lloyd's article on the Hartbleis his main gripe with the lenses was that they needed a tripod, most of the time (not his personal style of work). And they were expensive. Aside bokeh and colors, which he was in love with, in terms of sharpness, he calls the lenses outstanding (rare thing coming from Lloyd :) ), stopped down a little bit. He recommends the 80 (the "weakest" of the bunch ) for portrait work, saying that neither Canon nor Nikon have nothing that can touch it.
Aside the correctable / small distortion on the 40, it is an amazing lens. Resolution / sharpness (a bit stopped down from 5.6 up for side areas with shift) , microcontrast, shadows/ highlits details, overall rendition is comparable only to the best of European / supertele lenses ; with the same incredible colors and bokeh (stopped down - 12 blades) . Sorry, from my point of view, in another league from the Canikon ts-PC lenses (which I have owned, used, tested in the past, extensively). For my kind of work (complicated composits), it also has a minimal amount of focus breathing (also useful in video), which is quite hard to find these days.
The unidirectional shift may seem a bit strange at first, but once you start working with it, it's really manageable. The reason for it is superior mechanical precision / durability, one of the things Lloyds himself appreciates in the Hartbleis, and dislikes particularly in regards to the Nikon pc-e lenses (significantly less than perfect alignments for stiching shifted shots, for example) . Lloyd even calls the Hartbleis dream lenses for the technical / studio shooter, for those who want that "medium format look" in 35mm , on a budget. And I have to agree with him, as I can do simple 40-50 MP stiched shots (including people, foreground objects etc. ) on my D3x with those lenses that will kick serious Hasselblad butt ...
-
Jgbowerman, what is the purpose of the above quote with no reply ? :) Just curious, that's all ... :))
-
Jgbowerman, what is the purpose of the above quote with no reply ? :) Just curious, that's all ... :))
Sorry about that! My effort to quote was initiated prior to logging in and apparently got corrupted, or I suppose an error due to my digital incompetence! Oh well, I can do better and I'll redo it.
-
I actually read Lloyd's reviews on the Hartblei Zeiss lenses and came to the conclusion they weren't for me. I don't have a subscription to his site at the moment so I can go back and look for specific reasons, but I seem to recall he was mostly enamored with the bokeh, which wasn't of interest for me. I was most interested in the 40mm, and based on his review I came to the conclusion that with regards to sharpness and distortion it just wasn't enough of an upgrade from my Nikkor PC-E to justify the price. I also didn't like the fact that the shift only works in one direction, requiring rotation to shift in the opposite direction for stitching (and if you use the lens tripod foot, that means rotating your camera upside down).
I would watch out for prices on the Hartblei lenses that seem too good be to be true, there's a good chance you could end up with the old non-Zeiss glass (which wasn't very good at all). The Hartblei-Zeiss three-lens set goes for something like $10K new, so the chances of legitimately picking up one of those lenses for under $1K is unlikely.
The new Schneider lenses also have the one-way shift limitation, which is disappointing. But I'm interested in these lenses due to the huge image circle (considerably larger than most 35-format tilt/shift lenses), since it should mean that sharpness and distortion hold up well even at maximum shift/tilt.
Thanks, Jeff. Lloyd is especially into bokeh and not necessarily a big fan of obtaining sharpness throughout the field of view... not at all my style when it comes to landscapes. The Hartblei-Zeiss glass appears to be difficult if not impossible to find and at 10K, it comes at a price I cannot justify over Nikon's 45mm PC/TS lens... an outstanding lens and my favorite for landscapes.
-
Just to be clear the 10K price was for all 3 Hartblei Zeiss lenses, although I think that may have been Euros not US$. That was actually considered a "bundle" price with savings over buying the individual lenses; but Hartblei no longer has the price list on their website, so I'm not sure if that info is still current and I don't know where you could get current pricing or dealer availability. Still, the Hartblei 40mm probably sells for more than twice the Nikkor PC-E; and even if it is somewhat better than the Nikkor, Lloyd's comments about distortion, astigmatism and field curvature lead me to believe it might not be good enough to justify its price tag for my uses. From Llloyd's comments the 120mm seems to be the real standout of the three, but that's not really a focal length I'm interested in.
-
Just to be clear the 10K price was for all 3 Hartblei Zeiss lenses, although I think that may have been Euros not US$. That was actually considered a "bundle" price with savings over buying the individual lenses; but Hartblei no longer has the price list on their website, so I'm not sure if that info is still current and I don't know where you could get current pricing or dealer availability. Still, the Hartblei 40mm probably sells for more than twice the Nikkor PC-E; and even if it is somewhat better than the Nikkor, Lloyd's comments about distortion, astigmatism and field curvature lead me to believe it might not be good enough to justify its price tag for my uses. From Llloyd's comments the 120mm seems to be the real standout of the three, but that's not really a focal length I'm interested in.
Well if you compare Lloyd's comments on the 40 Hartblei and the 45 pc-e (and Hartbleis vs pc-es in general) (no direct comparison, just read the individual articles and compare) the Hartblei is, even in his view, more than just "somewhat" better ... :))). Sorry guys, but my 1st hand experience with the aforementioned lenses, still makes the Hartblei soooo much better :))) (for me at least, for all the reasons already mentioned)
-
Well if you compare Lloyd's comments on the 40 Hartblei and the 45 pc-e (and Hartbleis vs pc-es in general) (no direct comparison, just read the individual articles and compare) the Hartblei is, even in his view, more than just "somewhat" better ... :))). Sorry guys, but my 1st hand experience with the aforementioned lenses, still makes the Hartblei soooo much better :))) (for me at least, for all the reasons already mentioned)
Lloyd's criticism of the PC-E is primarily mechanical, not optical. Optically he found the lens to be quite excellent: "Optical performance is very high, superior to any 50mm or wider shift lens this author has used..."
The mechanical aspects and "lens slop" of the PC-E 45 are worth consideration for a prospective buyer; but I already own the lens, and if I were going to replace it at considerable cost I would want substantially better optics, not just better mechanics/build-quality.
It is too bad Lloyd didn't bother with direct comparison of those two lenses when he did the Hartblei review, as I'm sure a lot of folks would have found it useful. I don't doubt the Hartblei is better unshifted, but Lloyd's comments about needing to stop down to f/16 in some cases when using large shifts, along with the greater distortion led me to believe that it wasn't what I was looking for in a $3K+ lens.
But this thread was started about the Schneider lenses, which I'm hoping will be better suited to my type of work than the Hartblei's. The Schneiders have particularly large image circles (79mm for the 50, even larger for the other two) which should mean particularly good performance when shifted. For those interested I found the user's manual for the PC-TS lenses at http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/PC-TS%20Anleitung%201-12%20en.PDF
-
Lloyd's criticism of the PC-E is primarily mechanical, not optical. Optically he found the lens to be quite excellent: "Optical performance is very high, superior to any 50mm or wider shift lens this author has used..."
The mechanical aspects and "lens slop" of the PC-E 45 are worth consideration for a prospective buyer; but I already own the lens, and if I were going to replace it at considerable cost I would want substantially better optics, not just better mechanics/build-quality.
It is too bad Lloyd didn't bother with direct comparison of those two lenses when he did the Hartblei review, as I'm sure a lot of folks would have found it useful. I don't doubt the Hartblei is better unshifted, but Lloyd's comments about needing to stop down to f/16 in some cases when using large shifts, along with the greater distortion led me to believe that it wasn't what I was looking for in a $3K+ lens.
But this thread was started about the Schneider lenses, which I'm hoping will be better suited to my type of work than the Hartblei's. The Schneiders have particularly large image circles (79mm for the 50, even larger for the other two) which should mean particularly good performance when shifted. For those interested I found the user's manual for the PC-TS lenses at http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/PC-TS%20Anleitung%201-12%20en.PDF
Lloyds tested the pc-e lenses before the Hartbleis so "the superior to any other 50 or wider shift lens ..." does not take into consideration the Hartbleis (or Schneiders for that matter :) )
As far as image circle in comparison to the Schneider 50, (aside the serious FOV difference and design differences between a 40 and a 50mm ) the Hartblei 40 mm has an 80 mm image circle as it is based on an improved Zeiss design of the legendary Zeiss 40 CFE IF Distagon for Hasselblad so I don't see the problems there. And judging on the mosaic crops from Lloyds, performance both in central unshifted areas and lateral shifted areas was excellent, except extreme shifted corners where you would need to stop down to f11 for optimal performance ... pretty much what you would expect for a large circle shift lens , nothing unusual here.
Lloyds complains also about optical aberrations in shifted areas when it comes to the 45 pc-e, not only about mechanical build and shift / plane of focus allignments. And he mentions the overall uninsipiring / flat look and poor rendition of shadows/highlight details also of pc-e lenses when compared to Zeiss. Not to mention bokeh wide open or stopped down and colors / tonal gradations ... :)))
But enough of the Hartbleis, back on topic to the Schneiders, you are correct :) .
-
All good food for thought. Thanks guys!
-
Interesting Schneider states the 50 "is therefore recommended mainly for architectural photography as well as for town and landscape imagery."
I ordered one when it was announced, but when they sent me the MTF's from Germany I couldn't quite believe the distortion graphs (over 2%). When I asked why they would design a modern lens with this much distortion they replied it was not intended for architecture but for table-top, and they recommended using a plate camera such as the Alpa for architecture.
That along with it not being a new optical design (basically the old mf SA in a new house), the cost of over $4k, and the shipping date being pushed back over and over led me to cancel my order.
I checked with my dealer, they have received a 90 but still no 50.
-
That along with it not being a new optical design (basically the old mf SA in a new house), the cost of over $4k, and the shipping date being pushed back over and over led me to cancel my order.
I checked with my dealer, they have received a 90 but still no 50.
-snip-
The cost of these lenses really turned me off. Don't get me wrong, I love Schneider lenses, along with my Rodenstock lenses too on my 4x5 and my 8x10. I looked real careful at these lenses because as much as I love my LF gear and still use it, there are times it's very hard to go hauling all that gear into some locations or situations. But for the price - like you said - over $4K - you can get lone heck of a good 4x5 system with lens. Depending on the job at hand, I personally think there are time plain old 4x5 film and a good scan of the negative is still the best way to go.
joe
-
What I'd like is a second party to make tripod mount collars that can support any of the current Nikon or Canon Tilt/Shift lenses and up to a D3 / 1Ds size body. I understand that the moving parts of the PC-E and TS-E lenses are not designed to support the weight of a camera which is why such a mount collar would need to have some sort of secondary support for the mass of the body.
-
I think Hartblei is selling such a thing.
-
Interesting Schneider states the 50 "is therefore recommended mainly for architectural photography as well as for town and landscape imagery."
I ordered one when it was announced, but when they sent me the MTF's from Germany I couldn't quite believe the distortion graphs (over 2%). When I asked why they would design a modern lens with this much distortion they replied it was not intended for architecture but for table-top, and they recommended using a plate camera such as the Alpa for architecture.
That along with it not being a new optical design (basically the old mf SA in a new house), the cost of over $4k, and the shipping date being pushed back over and over led me to cancel my order.
That's disappointing to read, I had hoped the 50 would be something special. I didn't realize it was an older, recycled lens design. Given that the price seems kinda ridiculous.
-
That's (as someone mentioned above) why one can't assume that because its a Schneider it is inherently a superior lens (though I own many superior LF lenses by Schneider). It is always an inherently a more expensive lens and usually a superior lens, but sometimes it seems that they get lazy and just trade on their name.
-
Difficult to be selective about the former but there are definitely ladies who don't care about cars. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
Absolutely
-
Interesting Schneider states the 50 "is therefore recommended mainly for architectural photography as well as for town and landscape imagery."
I ordered one when it was announced, but when they sent me the MTF's from Germany I couldn't quite believe the distortion graphs (over 2%). When I asked why they would design a modern lens with this much distortion they replied it was not intended for architecture but for table-top, and they recommended using a plate camera such as the Alpa for architecture.
That along with it not being a new optical design (basically the old mf SA in a new house), the cost of over $4k, and the shipping date being pushed back over and over led me to cancel my order.
I checked with my dealer, they have received a 90 but still no 50.
I have a 50mm on order and raised these points with Robert White - the UK distributor - this is their response:
The truth is that a Distagon design is required in order to make space for a mirror box as well as for the complex movements that are required for a PC lens
this type of lens design is also used by Zeiss for the Hasselblad system and is known from Schneider as the premium medium format Rollei lens 50/2.8. both these lenses have very high optical performance and have an image circle that it big enough to cover medium format, as well as being large enough to allow perspective control on full
If you look at the Canon and Nikon PC lenses they also use a Distagon design for the 24 and 45mm lenses... they do this because there is no other way .
We have also to remember that all lenses distort and for this reason Nikon Canon Zeiss and indeed Schnieder list MTF charts to document the lens performance. the selling point is that the Zeiss and Schneider 50 MF lenses have an even greater image circle that the Nikon and canon equivalent, this means a large sweet spot to the lens.
In terms of price the Schneider 50/2.8 lens in a Rollei mount used to cost around £2800 + VAT new. The Zeiss 50/4 CFE lens sells for £2700 new. so given that this optical design has been mounted into such and expensive tilt shift mount and costing a little over £2000 shows great value for money.
Having said all this if you look at the 90/4.5 PC TS HM lens you will notice that it has the image circle optical layout and performance of the 90/4.5 Apo macro Digitar lens.
Due to the focal length this lens does NOT need to be a Distagon ( retrofocus ) design and so is one of the finest lenses in the World .
I have not cancelled my order as I think that the points made are valid.
-
Keep us posted once you get the lens, I'd love to hear some first-hand reports on the 50mm.
-
Yes we do - the infos for that are here:
http://hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm
and also the pricelist for the Hartblei /HCam Products is online again:
http://www.hcam.de/de/Pricelist_7_2011.pdf
all products available - just send me a mail s.steib@hartblei.de
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib Hartblei.de / Hcam.de
-
Schneider does make a 28mm Super-Angulon PC, but it's shift-only and optically a dud (not to mention massively over-priced given its performance). Frankly, the quality of the 28mm SA-PC doesn't inspire much confidence that these new lenses will be worth their price tag. They may be newer designs but that doesn't necessarily mean they're any better optically than the Nikkor PC-E's.
I suspect sample variation may have been an issue for you. My Schneider 28/2.8 PC Super Angulon is excellent in the corners shifted 5-8mm (along the short axis) when stopped down between f/8 and f/11, and it is even decent slightly beyond that at f/16. My Nikkor 24/3.5 PC-E started to look dreadful at the edges on my D300 when shifted along the long axis. If the Schneider 28 PC is a "dud" then I have had many "duds" that I consider excellent lenses, including the Sony 50/1.4, Sigma 105/2.8 macro, Minolta 200/2.8 all being currently used on my A850; and on my D300 I have used the Nikkor 24/3.5 PC-E, 45/2.8 PC-E, 90/2.8 PC-micro, 14-24/2.8, 70-200/2.8 VR (first version), and Tokina 90/2.5 macro. The Schneider has been a great lens for me on my A850 and has brought out the full potential of my A850 when I use them together.
-
I have a 50mm on order and raised these points with Robert White - the UK distributor - this is their response:
The truth is that a Distagon design is required in order to make space for a mirror box as well as for the complex movements that are required for a PC lens
this type of lens design is also used by Zeiss for the Hasselblad system and is known from Schneider as the premium medium format Rollei lens 50/2.8. both these lenses have very high optical performance and have an image circle that it big enough to cover medium format, as well as being large enough to allow perspective control on full
If you look at the Canon and Nikon PC lenses they also use a Distagon design for the 24 and 45mm lenses... they do this because there is no other way .
We have also to remember that all lenses distort and for this reason Nikon Canon Zeiss and indeed Schnieder list MTF charts to document the lens performance. the selling point is that the Zeiss and Schneider 50 MF lenses have an even greater image circle that the Nikon and canon equivalent, this means a large sweet spot to the lens.
In terms of price the Schneider 50/2.8 lens in a Rollei mount used to cost around £2800 + VAT new. The Zeiss 50/4 CFE lens sells for £2700 new. so given that this optical design has been mounted into such and expensive tilt shift mount and costing a little over £2000 shows great value for money.
Having said all this if you look at the 90/4.5 PC TS HM lens you will notice that it has the image circle optical layout and performance of the 90/4.5 Apo macro Digitar lens.
Due to the focal length this lens does NOT need to be a Distagon ( retrofocus ) design and so is one of the finest lenses in the World .
I have not cancelled my order as I think that the points made are valid.
Your response came from a dealer, I asked Schneider Germany directly.
This lens will most likely have very good performance in many aspects, but it is not a new design of an old lens, it is the old lens in a new house. The mirror box on a Canon is not the same as the mirror box on a Rollie.
Canon redid the 24 tse when updating it to the version 2, and distortion-wise it is a better performer than this new Schneider 50 shift. It's also half the price.
Schneider gave me the retrofocus causes distortion line too initially, but when I pointed out that Canon seems to be able to solve it for the 24 and 17 they had no response except to say "Our target group of professional photographer are the pack shot and studio photographers to do the “bread and butter” business."
A US rep told me Schneider looked into making new wide shift lenses but they would have to be priced too high to get a return on their investment. To me this explains the warming over of existing lenses and putting them in a new housing.
-
Well the 50 lens turned up yesterday and I got a chance to play with it a little around 7pm this evening (Saturday) i.e. about half an hour before sunset in my garden so it is not an ideal test but then I am not a lens tester.
My first impressions are that it is a big very solid very well engineered piece of kit. In fact almost too well engineered in terms of tolerances as I found the tilt ring would not budge initially until a fair amount of pressure was applied. It is of course all manual so that on my Sony 850 bodies there is no autofocus assist and without live view it is extremely difficult to get the focus right whilst using the tilt.
The shift is more straightforward but unlike the Nikon, Canon and Hasselblad units I have used in the past the shift only works in one direction - why? I have no idea but it seems like a strange and undocumented omission. You can of course fiddle about to rotate the lens and/or the camera to shift the other way but as this involves a 180 degree movement of both camera body and lens barrel it is hardly ideal. IMO therefore it is not particularly useful for panoramic images.
I managed to take one image which I think was in focus all over (please judge for yourself) of a part of the garden with a lot of light and shade The lens has good contrast, appears to have good edge to edge sharpness. The leaves in the foreground are immediately in front of the camera.
This image was taken at f8 with 3 degrees of tilt downwards. Processed in LR with 200% sharpening applied in PS CS5 Smart Sharpen before printing.
My opinion? It really needs Live view so the A850 and A900 are not the best bodies to use. On a D3X or 5DmkII it should be fine but not for panos.
-
The shift is more straightforward but unlike the Nikon, Canon and Hasselblad units I have used in the past the shift only works in one direction - why? I have no idea but it seems like a strange and undocumented omission. You can of course fiddle about to rotate the lens and/or the camera to shift the other way but as this involves a 180 degree movement of both camera body and lens barrel it is hardly ideal. IMO therefore it is not particularly useful for panoramic images.
That is very odd and disappointing.
-
David, is the mount replaceable; i.e., can I adapt the lens to fit another system?
-
David, is the mount replaceable; i.e., can I adapt the lens to fit another system?
I believe it can as it is simply an adapter with a few screws and I have seen other Schneider shift lenses advertised with interchangeable mounts. I will check that out.
-
This morning I had another attempt to use the lens. This time in bright sunlight which made focussing easier but not easy! I took two shots (well actually about 20 but only 2 or 3 which were acceptable). One is without any movements and is of a flat surface (my barn door). You can judge distortion and edge to edge sharpness from the attached image. The other was of the back of one of our cars and I was focussing and tilting to keep both the number plate and the decal at the top of the rear window in sharp focus. In the end I settled on f11 with 3 degrees of tilt.
I also attempted a simple panorama but not with any great degree of success. In order to make a pano the first shot is taken with the shift to the right (or left) and then the tripod collar is loosened, the whole assembly turned through 180 degrees, the tripod collar retightened, and finally the camera itself (which is now upside down) rotated through 180 degrees the other way. Having tried it once the whole process is such a pain I won't be repeating the exercise.
It seems to me that I will only be using this lens for a bit of landscape and some architecture but it will mostly sit in my bag unused until I can buy a FF Sony A camera with Live View sometime next year.
-
Wow, that looks totally disappointing. My Zeiss Hartbleis will wipe the floor with that Schneider !
-
That distortion looks worse than I'd expected - is that unshifted?
From what I've seen the 40 Hartblei has even more distortion (and it's complex distortion too). Aside from the distortion it is supposed to be a special lens.
Was the 50 Super Angulon (for MF) regarded as one of the better performers?
-
The shift is more straightforward but unlike the Nikon, Canon and Hasselblad units I have used in the past the shift only works in one direction - why? I have no idea but it seems like a strange and undocumented omission. You can of course fiddle about to rotate the lens and/or the camera to shift the other way but as this involves a 180 degree movement of both camera body and lens barrel it is hardly ideal.
Although this feature of the lens is disappointing, you have a splendid back yard!
-
That distortion looks worse than I'd expected - is that unshifted?
From what I've seen the 40 Hartblei has even more distortion (and it's complex distortion too). Aside from the distortion it is supposed to be a special lens.
Was the 50 Super Angulon (for MF) regarded as one of the better performers?
None of the shots were shifted. What distortion specifically are you referring to?
-
If there's no distortion in that shot of your fence then you have a rather warped fence.
As a test subject a wooden fence like that, especially a single image of it, can't really indicate much, but it looks quite distorted to me. But perhaps that's what that fence really looks like.
If you don't see it, or it doesn't bother you, or isn't relative to the work you do, you have nothing to worry about.
-
If there's no distortion in that shot of your fence then you have a rather warped fence.
As a test subject a wooden fence like that, especially a single image of it, can't really indicate much, but it looks quite distorted to me. But perhaps that's what that fence really looks like.
If you don't see it, or it doesn't bother you, or isn't relative to the work you do, you have nothing to worry about.
The "fence" is actually a barn door made 3 years ago out of new oak. That is exactly what the door looks like and there is no distortion.
-
If I use ACR and add around +1.5 to +2.5 to the distortion correction tool it looks more natural to me.
The image of the fence shows exactly the kind of barrel distortion one would expect from Schneider's published MTF charts for this lens. (see attachment)
The good thing is this distortion is not complex and can be easily corrected. Unless of course one uses the shift function, then a bit more work is needed.
For those not needing straight lines remaining straight in their work there is no problem.
-
If I use ACR and add around +1.5 to +2.5 to the distortion correction tool it looks more natural to me.
The image of the fence shows exactly the kind of barrel distortion one would expect from Schneider's published MTF charts for this lens. (see attachment)
The good thing is this distortion is not complex and can be easily corrected. Unless of course one uses the shift function, then a bit more work is needed.
For those not needing straight lines remaining straight in their work there is no problem.
There is no distortion. The piece of wood at the top of the picture is actually bent in reality and is used to secure the doors. The bigger problem with this lens for me is that it only shifts in one direction at a time. What I wanted was a lens that would shift right and left and tilt at right angles to the shift and occasionally one that would shift up and tilt down. I have sent it back to the supplier.
-
Got hold of a new 50 PC TS today and did some quick testing on some interiors with a lot of straight lines - as expected it showed barrel distortion in line with the published data, especially noticeable when shifted.
It is a great big lens, very well constructed, really felt like something special compared to Canon lenses. Too bad it's not really useable for my purposes. Still thinking about the 90 though.
-
LensRentals.com has the 50mm available in Nikon mount, so I'm going to try it out. Simple barrel distortion is not a big concern for me (mostly shooting landscapes), I even have a PS action for correcting shifted images with PTLens (I have to do this with my 24mm PC-E sometimes). The one-way shift mechanics will be annoying, but the if optics are substantially better than the PC-E I may be willing to live with that. Guess I'll see once I get a chance to work with it a bit.
-
LensRentals.com has the 50mm available in Nikon mount, so I'm going to try it out. Simple barrel distortion is not a big concern for me (mostly shooting landscapes), I even have a PS action for correcting shifted images with PTLens (I have to do this with my 24mm PC-E sometimes). The one-way shift mechanics will be annoying, but the if optics are substantially better than the PC-E I may be willing to live with that. Guess I'll see once I get a chance to work with it a bit.
I hear the thing weights a ton! Might be too much for my backpacking-weight limitations. Look forward to hearing more.
-
Llyod Chambers is testing the 90 Schneider and is expecting the 50 in a few weeks. Based on his findings and currently available samples / data I suspect a Hartblei - Schneider showdown will look like this (also based on the fact that we are discussing basically Zeiss Hasselblad - Rolllei Schneider rebadged designs - with different approaches) :
The 40 Hartblei (based on an improved formula for digital of the legendary Zeiss Hasselblad 40 IF CFE) , though with somewhat similar distortion and one stop slower than the Schneider, is still significantly wider and kicks serious resolution / rendition / bokeh Schneider butt (a lens based on the Rollei Schneider 50 2.8 ) . With the 80-90 duel, it's somewhat a different story - we are comparing a 90mm Makro originating from the legendary Apo-Macro Rollei Schneider lens with an 80mm portrait lens (significantly better than any CaNikon offerings, also according to Lloyd), originating from the (best) Zeiss Hasselblad "normal" lens. The 90 will probably be better for most purely technical applications (no distortion whatsoever, clinical sharpness across the frame etc) except for portraits / people shooting, where the 80mm Zeiss Hartblei is still the better lens (1.5 stop faster, better bokeh, better drawing style and even significantly lighter - 795g vs 1100 g)
For videographers, the Zeiss Hartbleis should be a better choice than the Schneiders for a few simple / important reasons : instant integration within the CP.2 Zeiss line of lenses in terms both of color / overall rendtion matching and focus rings, and signifcantly better bokeh stopped down due to 12 aperture blades vs 7 blades on the Schneider.
Incredible build quality is definitely the same on all lenses (in a different league even from Zeiss ZF, ZE lenses ).
-
Lloyd Chambers review of the Schneider TS lenses is now available on his website. He had some problems which I will not describe here in deference to Lloyd's site being a pay for view but anyone considering these lenses should have a look. There may be some sample variation also with these lenses, which would be frightening considering the high price.
Jeff, I would love to hear your experiences with the 50 and see if they parallel Lloyd's. I'm sitting on the fence on trying one of them out depending on at least one other report.
-
So I took a rented Schneider 50mm TS on a trip to the Eastern Sierra Nevada. Overall I'd say I'm not impressed. The build quality is very robust and the lens movements are secure, but that's about all it has going for it over the Nikon PC-E. While I didn't find the weight too objectionable, the size/bulk of this lens was surprising even though I knew it was going to be big. And when I rented it I hadn't considered that I wouldn't have a polarizer to use with it, so that cut down the lens' usefulness also.
Optically, the un-shifted/un-tilted image is good but not spectacular. As LLoyd noted you need to stop down a bit and even then there's some CA (it seemed worse in Lloyd's samples, but I'm not sure if that lens sample variation of just a matter of shooting conditions). Sharpness falls off a bit at the edge, and once you start shifting that becomes even more of an issue. Given that some CA is really the only optical weakness of the Nikon PC-E, I just don't see the Schneider lens as an upgrade from a purely optical standpoint (the Schneider definitely has better build quality though).
On the ergonomics side, I was also disappointed. The unidirectional shift is just a PITA, no way around it. I supposed I could get used to it if everything else about the lens was wonderful, but it's not. Oh, and don't get me started about the tripod collar - it's worthless IMHO. The problem is this: when using the tripod collar, you can't use either rotation axis of the lens to change the shift direction; you have to rotate the lens in the tripod collar, and the collar has no index markings so this quickly becomes far more trouble than it's worth. To add injury to insult, the tripod foot is too small to use with RRS lever-style QR clamps. So I quickly discarded the tripod collar after the first time trying to use it.
While I understand the theory of parallax-free stitching, the reality is that parallax is rarely an issue at 50mm; and even if you do have a close foreground you can avoid parallax by simply sliding the camera a bit left/right in the QR clamp to get the same effect. So to me this is not at all a selling feature of the lens, especially given the poor ergonomics required to actually use the tripod collar.
-
Jeff, thanks so much for your report. You said everything I need to know in a short post. And you've saved me the price of a rental!! But I'm tempted to try the 90.
-
Dear JeffKohn,
thank you for so usefull for me information about 50/2.8 TS. Only five days ago I was near buying it on B@H.
Lloyd Chambers review of this lense gave rise to doubts about the correctness of my choice. There was problem that Lloyd didn't made any test shots of 50/2.8 TS without tilt/shift, simply as a prime lens - exactly what you did for my biggest pleasure.
Only one I would like to ask from you if it possible - some RAW files with different apertures and without (or minimal) tilt/shift for my clear understanding of 50 TS's IQ and usefulness its for my needs. I have full range of Canon TS-E (17mm, 24mm II, 90mm) and there is only one issue - it is gap from 24mm to 90mm. ???[/color]
-
So I took a rented Schneider 50mm TS on a trip to the Eastern Sierra Nevada. Overall I'd say I'm not impressed. The build quality is very robust and the lens movements are secure, but that's about all it has going for it over the Nikon PC-E. While I didn't find the weight too objectionable, the size/bulk of this lens was surprising even though I knew it was going to be big. And when I rented it I hadn't considered that I wouldn't have a polarizer to use with it, so that cut down the lens' usefulness also.
Optically, the un-shifted/un-tilted image is good but not spectacular. As LLoyd noted you need to stop down a bit and even then there's some CA (it seemed worse in Lloyd's samples, but I'm not sure if that lens sample variation of just a matter of shooting conditions). Sharpness falls off a bit at the edge, and once you start shifting that becomes even more of an issue. Given that some CA is really the only optical weakness of the Nikon PC-E, I just don't see the Schneider lens as an upgrade from a purely optical standpoint (the Schneider definitely has better build quality though).
On the ergonomics side, I was also disappointed. The unidirectional shift is just a PITA, no way around it. I supposed I could get used to it if everything else about the lens was wonderful, but it's not. Oh, and don't get me started about the tripod collar - it's worthless IMHO. The problem is this: when using the tripod collar, you can't use either rotation axis of the lens to change the shift direction; you have to rotate the lens in the tripod collar, and the collar has no index markings so this quickly becomes far more trouble than it's worth. To add injury to insult, the tripod foot is too small to use with RRS lever-style QR clamps. So I quickly discarded the tripod collar after the first time trying to use it.
While I understand the theory of parallax-free stitching, the reality is that parallax is rarely an issue at 50mm; and even if you do have a close foreground you can avoid parallax by simply sliding the camera a bit left/right in the QR clamp to get the same effect. So to me this is not at all a selling feature of the lens, especially given the poor ergonomics required to actually use the tripod collar.
This was exactly my experience Jeff which is why I sent the lens back for a full refund.
-
grayooooowl - sorry, I don't have any test shots suitable for sharing RAWs from.
-
But I'm tempted to try the 90.
Yeah it does sound like a nice lens. I'm just not sure I could justify the price for a focal length I don't use as much, especially when my 85 PC is no slouch and I also have the Zeiss 100 f/2 for stitching which is stellar.