Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EinstStein on September 11, 2010, 03:03:24 am
-
I want to buy a used 22MP digital back from Hasselblad, the CF-22 or Cf-132. But it almost never showed up anywhere, including Ebay.
Phase P25/P25+ and Leaf Aptus II 22 are easy to spot, but most of them are either for Mamiya or Hasselblad H.
The only often seen DB for V is the old Ixpress 96. I don;t like it, I don't like the digital bank.
The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.
Why a used CF-22 or used digital back for Hasselblad V is so rare?
-
It is a back not well known. This line came in between the Imacon backs and the H2/3D series. Most people went for the integrated series is my guess. There are also more CF39's available than CF22's. If you can try getting a CF39 instead of a CF22. You will have ISO800 vs ISO400, 64sec's vs 32sec's exposure, less moire and more resolution naturally. Pricewise the 2 will not be far apart probably.
I had a CF39 for sale but not anymore. The Pro Centre in London had several for sale for pretty decent prices with support and a 6month warranty if I am not mistaken.
-
The conspiracy theorist in me hypothesis that most bacsk of that generation will have been upgraded through dealer and trade-in offers.
So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again. The returned units are probably used to support service and support obligations but more likely they are just dumped so they can never reach the secondhand market.
Keeping new prices suitably high and people who would settle for the older backs wanting and saving for the low end offerings.
I recently sold my 132C and the interest was crazy given it's vintage.
-
The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.
FWIW I have an ixpress unit and the HD has worked perfectly for 8 or so years, I guess the HD will fail at some point which is why I have a spare Image bank, (plus the internal drive is not hard to replace).
There is a bunch of stuff for sale here:
http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html
Nick-T
-
I think you are very correct. Both Phase and Hasselblad have very high value trading program. This helps to maintain the new digital back's price tag. I suspect, at the same time, this actually also push down the medium format's market size. From what I know, a lot of wedding professional photographer have moved to 35mm FF DSLR. Partly due to 35mm FF DSLR's boosted capability, but also largely due to MFDB's high price tag.
It seems Leaf (now owned by Phase) is pushing the price down to fight against the tide. The recent released Leaf 22MP is priced ~$9000. Good sign to compete against the very high end Nikon or Canon DSLR. Alas, it might be too late. Hope not. I'm watching if MFDB used market would come up.
-
It seems Leaf (now owned by Phase) is pushing the price down to fight against the tide. The recent released Leaf 22MP is priced ~$9000. Good sign to compete against the very high end Nikon or Canon DSLR. Alas, it might be too late. Hope not. I'm watching if MFDB used market would come up.
It was smart of Leaf to have a "nearly" full frame 22mp option where no one else is offering one. I think there is a market for it. For most of us, 22 mp is more than enough resolution and going forward I hope there is more focus on all other aspects of DB IQ besides megapixels.
-
The simplest reason Hasselblad CF-22 digital backs are rare is that relatively few were sold, compared to H2D/H3D solutions (and Leaf Aptus 22/54-S and Phase One P25/25+). Hasselblad has devoted little marketing push to non-HXD products, for the most part. And, by the time the CF-22 product was released, the CF-39 was already in production. I don't know about the rest of the market, but most of my CF sales were 39MP, rather than 22MP.
And as has been mentioned, 22MP products have largely been traded in, although we regularly still see P25/25+ products come into our company via upgrade paths.
Steve Hendrix
-
The simplest reason Hasselblad CF-22 digital backs are rare is that relatively few were sold, compared to H2D/H3D solutions (and Leaf Aptus 22/54-S and Phase One P25/25+). Hasselblad has devoted little marketing push to non-HXD products, for the most part. And, by the time the CF-22 product was released, the CF-39 was already in production. I don't know about the rest of the market, but most of my CF sales were 39MP, rather than 22MP.
And as has been mentioned, 22MP products have largely been traded in, although we regularly still see P25/25+ products come into our company via upgrade paths.
Steve Hendrix
Hey Steve,
As a major dealer, you are in a unique position to be able to confirm/deny/comment on the assertion made above by studioseven ("So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again..."). Is this true? I have seen used backs for sale on the C1 website - is this what becomes of all of your trade-ins?
Ray
-
The used prices of a p25+ is too high in my opinion. For the same or less, you can get a brand new Aptus II 5 with 1 year warranty.
-
Hey Steve,
As a major dealer, you are in a unique position to be able to confirm/deny/comment on the assertion made above by studioseven ("So the backs go back to the manufacturers, never to been seen again..."). Is this true? I have seen used backs for sale on the C1 website - is this what becomes of all of your trade-ins?
Ray
Certainly if a manufacturer takes back one of their own products in trade, it likely goes back out to the marketplace, after refurbishment. In the USA, these are typically offered back to us as refurbished units. Competitive products obviously don't go back out. Traded-in products that we at Capture Integration accept are either resold after inspection and testing, or sent in to the manufacturer, depending on if it makes more fiscal sense to get credit or sell. It varies.
Steve Hendrix
-
The used prices of a p25+ is too high in my opinion. For the same or less, you can get a brand new Aptus II 5 with 1 year warranty.
Yes, but it depends on what your application might be. For example, if you need a 10 minute exposure, then the P25+ would be the appropriate solution.
Steve Hendrix
-
The hard disk based digital bank is bound to fail, very soon, and after that the DB will be useless.
Why is it so easy for someone to speak in absolutes as if they have factual data to back in up? More and more like dpreview every day.
a) For what its worth - I still shoot with a IBM 320 microdrive in a Kodak 760c and it has never failed. Probably older than most are to the concept of digital photography.
b) The imagebank is a rugged device IMO that is as dependable as modern portable drives. Use an auto parking 3.5" drive with high MTBF if it makes you feel better.
c) Formatting a larger/new capacity drive to the back is not difficult once you see the instructions...
d) Send me all useless DBs due to failed drives please.
-
Why is it so easy for someone to speak in absolutes as if they have factual data to back in up? More and more like dpreview every day.
a) For what its worth - I still shoot with a IBM 320 microdrive in a Kodak 760c and it has never failed. Probably older than most are to the concept of digital photography.
b) The imagebank is a rugged device IMO that is as dependable as modern portable drives. Use an auto parking 3.5" drive with high MTBF if it makes you feel better.
c) Formatting a larger/new capacity drive to the back is not difficult once you see the instructions...
d) Send me all useless DBs due to failed drives please.
I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products. Any hard drive is likely bound to fail at some point, but "soon" was an odd way to put it. :D And my understanding was that the ImageBank was pre-sectored, meaning each capture had a space set aside for it, rather than files or bits of files being dispersed all over the drive. And as a result, one could shoot continuously and the drives were perhaps more reliable (or the integrity of the data more secure at least) as a result.
Still, I typically recommended having a second on hand because if the ImageBank did fail, you were SOL at that moment.
More encounters occurred with the interface port becoming loose for the ImageBank than drive failures, in my experience. Having a backup resolved that situation as well, although back then spending $1,950 on a solution that one might never need wasn't always palatable for my customers. But that was their choice.
At any rate, I'm sure they're significantly more affordable today, in fact some of my customers may still have some extra Imagebanks hanging around they no longer need, since they've upgraded.
Steve Hendrix
-
I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products....
Understand that an Imagebank can fail, but how is that any different from any other media failing? CF, SD, etc. do fail. Further, it would not be difficult to use solid state memory as the drive for an Imagebank.
But, making a DB unusable from that point on is a stretch.
I have an ImageBank and a spare BTW that I have yet to have need for.
-
Actually I think Flash memory is equally easy to fail. Let's say it's even worse. But the different is it's so easy to replace it.
However, the hard disk IS bound to fail and very SOON, count the FIT rate, particularly when it's used as portable in the situation of data bank.
Ever heard about the word "RAID" ? Guess why it's becoming popular?
A data bank based digital back would be obsolete when the data bank is no longer available. Another 3 years, perhapes.
-
I have owned an Ixpress with imagebank. Never one single failure. I have never needed it but replacing a harddrive in the Imagebank shouldn't be too hard. One thing I really liked about the Ixpress backs is the Ixpress cable (which is another of those things that are pretty proprietary and you better have spares of that too). Especially the connection to the back is a work of art. If only firewire connections could have been like this..
Anyway. If I would have a tight budget and could get a Ixpress back for a nice price I would not hesitate because of the IB. I would prefer something that has its storage inside and doesn't need a cable perse attached to an external device. This preference comes more from the desire for convenience than the fear of failure of the IB.
-
SUPER rare for V series...at the time of release I think most people on V weren't thinking digital. I have seen CF39 for V, but no 22. ever thing about going with H3D-22 integrated solution??
-
I think I had one customer who experienced failure with the ImageBank the years that I sold the iExpress products.
Understand that an Imagebank can fail, but how is that any different from any other media failing? CF, SD, etc. do fail. Further, it would not be difficult to use solid state memory as the drive for an Imagebank.
But, making a DB unusable from that point on is a stretch.
I have an ImageBank and a spare BTW that I have yet to have need for.
I was making the point that I only had 1 failure from all the units I installed, not that it was notable that there was a failure. So the rate of failure was very, very low. As has been pointed, out, the cabling, or the coupling for the cabling, was more likely to be the problem, in the event there was one.
Steve Hendrix
-
It's a very wise and honest advice for all data bank owners to keep at least one more back-up.
As a dealer, would you take back that advise, given that you've only seen on failure case?
Or you'd advise otherwise to save customer's money?
-
It's a very wise and honest advice for all data bank owners to keep at least one more back-up.
As a dealer, would you take back that advise, given that you've only seen on failure case?
Or you'd advise otherwise to save customer's money?
My concern is that my customers can be successful in their business. As such, I am on the side of recommending backup. Saving the money by not purchasing is a decision my customer will ultimately make, but that conclusion will be the result of discussion between my customer and me. I recommend backup, strongly in some cases, not strongly in others, but there are many factors and no two situations are identical. As the Imagebank had a $1,995 price tag, many chose not to opt for a backup ImageBank. However, the majority did opt for a $200 backup cable, since the cable was a) much less money and b) much more likely to fail. My customers who were less able to accept being down for even several hours were more likely to purchase the backup Imagebank. Those who could afford to receive a loaner unit the next morning from me would typically opt not to.
Steve Hendrix
-
This is the reason, I have at least 2 more or less equal digital backs plus bodies. I have in most focal lengths 2 options for lenses. If the IB is your concern because it can fail, so can everything else. The IB has proven itself to be much more reliable than other vital parts of the entire system.
I once had fungus on the IR filter which basically rendered my back useless as well (unless you are willing to spend more time on getting rid of the spots than on the actual shoot).
My point. There are a million ways things can go haywire, don't keep staring on just one thing. The other point is, whatever you do things will mess up eventually.
-
I agree with the statements that the 22MP digital backs were not sold in great numbers compared to the CF-39 and H2D models available at the time. My experience was that photographers where looking for the advances on the H2D platform with auto-focus lenses with metadata to post-correct for lens distortion, etc. instead of the limits of a digital back.
Look, we sell digital backs, too - but ultimately, the decision on what to buy is the photographer's - not the marketing department or executive board at major camera manufacturers as some suggest.
One of the questions earlier was what happens to the backs when they are returned to the manufacturer as a trade-in or repair? Hasselblad in the US will refurbish the unit and publish on the CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) list for redeployment into the marketplace - providing a Hasselblad for every budget.
Like our brand competitors, we do accept trade-ins from older equipment to substantially offset the cost of a new Hasselblad system. I would like to think the sensors can be recovered, but it is only my speculation.
The Imagebank series I (about the size of a VHS tape, remember those?LOL) provided not only storage, but also power to the digital magazine. The second generation is smaller (slightly larger than an iPhone) and uses FireWire 800 instead of gigabit CAT5. Each use ruggedized, shock-proof hard drives inside.
Stay Inspired! Find out what all the fuss is about. We can help.
John
-
I agree with the statements that the 22MP digital backs were not sold in great numbers compared to the CF-39 and H2D models available at the time. My experience was that photographers where looking for the advances on the H2D platform with auto-focus lenses with metadata to post-correct for lens distortion, etc. instead of the limits of a digital back.
Look, we sell digital backs, too - but ultimately, the decision on what to buy is the photographer's - not the marketing department or executive board at major camera manufacturers as some suggest.
One of the questions earlier was what happens to the backs when they are returned to the manufacturer as a trade-in or repair? Hasselblad in the US will refurbish the unit and publish on the CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) list for redeployment into the marketplace - providing a Hasselblad for every budget.
Like our brand competitors, we do accept trade-ins from older equipment to substantially offset the cost of a new Hasselblad system. I would like to think the sensors can be recovered, but it is only my speculation.
The Imagebank series I (about the size of a VHS tape, remember those?LOL) provided not only storage, but also power to the digital magazine. The second generation is smaller (slightly larger than an iPhone) and uses FireWire 800 instead of gigabit CAT5. Each use ruggedized, shock-proof hard drives inside.
Stay Inspired! Find out what all the fuss is about. We can help.
John
John,
Can you consult that CPO online?
Thanks.
-
The inventory changes quickly and is first-come, first served; the best strategy we have found is to keep a list of interested equipment/photographers and notify when a match occurs.
Trying to avoid a pitch for our services to meet the T&C of Luminous Landscape, so I proceed with caution. An online list can be viewed at our website - look at the clearance aisle on the store.
If you want to get on the list, we can help.
John
-
Sure, but don't expect to find many if any H3D11-22 cameras, comparatively few were ever made. It took me almost a year to find mine and believe me, I'm not selling. Insert yellow grin thing.
i have a H3D-22 and feel the same way...steve sold it to me 3 or 4 years ago...