Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on July 27, 2010, 09:29:00 am
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http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/07/27/new-mac-pros-2/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/07/27/new-mac-pros-2/)
Don't get confused: the new Mac Pros have been announced and specs and pricing have been posted, but they are NOT yet available for purchase in the Apple Online Store.
Specs & Info (http://www.apple.com/macpro/)
Doug Peterson ()
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Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Hmmm. No USB3, no FW1600. No real innovation here. Kinda surprised.
2xDisplay Port plus 1xDualDVI port is pretty cool though. You can run a 30" in the center and two 24" vertical to each side without the need for an additional graphics card.
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Hmmm. No USB3, no FW1600. No real innovation here. Kinda surprised.
2xDisplay Port plus 1xDualDVI port is pretty cool though. You can run a 30" in the center and two 24" vertical to each side without the need for an additional graphics card.
If I buy the graphic card and put it in my 2008 macpro - I am about at the same level-
better spend money on SSD and RAM I think.
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I'm now running a 2008 mac pro with the fast ATI3870, 8 core 2.8, 10GB
It seems that if I really want to boost my speed I have to go to the 12 core, price wise I wonder if I really find that interesting seeing the speed my "old" 8 core is still running.
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That is why now I upgrade 1 time each 3 manufacturer magical upgrade.
For example, I run currently Photoshop CS4, so my next upgrade will be CS7. I would ignore CS5 and 6.
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That is why now I upgrade 1 time each 3 manufacturer magical upgrade.
For example, I run currently Photoshop CS4, so my next upgrade will be CS7. I would ignore CS5 and 6.
If you are on Mac you are really missing out on CS5 compared to CS4.. I find the upgrade kind of meager as well, especially considering the price hike. I do like to put a 5870 in my 2009 MacPro (a flashed one that is ).
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If you are on Mac you are really missing out on CS5 compared to CS4.. I find the upgrade kind of meager as well, especially considering the price hike. I do like to put a 5870 in my 2009 MacPro (a flashed one that is ).
Yes. The problem of my system is that it is completly lucky. I might want to be flexible and go for the best updates.
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Well it's about damn time.
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Hmmm. No USB3, no FW1600. No real innovation here. Kinda surprised.
2xDisplay Port plus 1xDualDVI port is pretty cool though. You can run a 30" in the center and two 24" vertical to each side without the need for an additional graphics card.
Yup, it would seem that my 3+ years old Mac Pro will be enjoying another year+ of hard work. Replacing my boot raptor by an OWC 200 GB SSD a few months ago was probably the right move. Once again improvrements in the performance of pano software like PT Gui or Autopano pro are showing much larger real world benefits compared to another lukewarm Mac Pro generation change.
It should be pretty clear by now that the engineering invested by Apple in the Mac Pro line has gone down very significantly. I wasn't too serious about this until today, but it looks like I might have to consider very seriously a move back to Windows platform next year. I have been using Win7 on a SSD in my work laptop for 3 months now and it just rocks. It appears that Apple is not interested anymore in keeping their monopolistic hardware close to the fore front at reasonnable prices.
Disapointing.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yup, it would seem that my 3+ years old Mac Pro will be enjoying another year+ of hard work. Replacing my boot raptor by an OWC 200 GB SSD a few months ago was probably the right move. Once again improvrements in the performance of pano software like PT Gui or Autopano pro are showing much larger real world benefits compared to another lukewarm Mac Pro generation change.
It should be pretty clear by now that the engineering invested by Apple in the Mac Pro line has gone down very significantly. I wasn't too serious about this until today, but it looks like I might have to consider very seriously a move back to Windows platform next year. I have been using Win7 on a SSD in my work laptop for 3 months now and it just rocks. It appears that Apple is not interested anymore in keeping their monopolistic hardware close to the fore front at reasonnable prices.
Disapointing.
Cheers,
Bernard
I believe that the problem is that, with respect to PCs Apple is just an other intel reselling company. The days of surprises / innovation are over. I hope AMD don't die any time soon because the lack of innovation will be even greater. Intel basically controls the PC market. They have the sight on killing Power7 and Spark. Nehalem EX it's great to run throughput jobs. For the ones that don't use the Mac Pros, on the other hand, the upgrades are interesting. The 27" know have support for 2 drives an SSD and a HD,together with the new 27" display (glossy only) it will make for a interesting premium costumer iMAC.
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I need a tower. The 17" MBP I got a few weeks ago handles the big files decently, with a 10k RPM eSATA scratch disk, but I could really use more, especially since I'm playing with video now. I just can't do the Windows environment. Bad design makes me angry and unproductive. I'm anxious to take the plunge, no matter how paltry the improvements. I'm sure Doug will be able to make it scream too!
I'm all in.
-CB
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For me the most exciting thing is the battery charger and the new AA cells.
Followed by the possibility to finally upgrade my graphics card with something that isn't prehistoric.
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For me the most exciting thing is the battery charger and the new AA cells.
Followed by the possibility to finally upgrade my graphics card with something that isn't prehistoric.
^
Ha ha
and I thought I was the only one who looked at the battery charger and thought "instant purchase"
am
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I believe that the problem is that, with respect to PCs Apple is just an other intel reselling company. The days of surprises / innovation are over.
Yep, but Apple would still have had the freedom to go far beyond what they have achieved.
The Mac Pro looks more and more like another ODM solution with more and more standard components. The R&D investement on this generation of Mac pro appears to be very low.
Cheers,
Bernard
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On the other hand, the 8 core I'm running now (2008) is so fast that I also don't feel the need to upgrade.
Switching back to windows ?
Ok, and how about for example final cut pro ?
As soon as windows runs all the programs the same way a mac does and has the same multitasking options and looses the registry maybe.
On the other hand, when I was on the PC platform (I only switched in 2008) I needed to install windows every 4-5 months because it was getting slower.
When a program crashed the whole PC needed to be rebooted.
Going to the mac at that time was an incredible speed boost (8 core macpro), over the last two years windows caught up a bit, but you would need a dual CPU board to get real 8 core or 12 core performance like the macpro I'm running now and that drives up the costs and driver problems a lot.
I think I will inform what my 2008Macpro has for trade in value, my wife owns a PC/Mac store and the company that she buys the macs from does some great trade ins.
Maybe I shelf out 2000.00 euros for the 12 core, I don't see me upgrading to an 8 core again.
It runs flawless and fast, so I don't really NEED an upgrade unless it's indeed a lot faster.
On software.
I always upgrade to the newest versions as soon as possible, there is always enough there to give me satisfaction.
With CS5 for example the speed has improved, and content aware fill is very handy.
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Yes CS5 is much better. If only for the usage of my memory. Annoying to see I have 24gb and most of it sitting idle while PS is doing a batch job. Much better in CS5. Content Aware with spot healing is a big time saver as well. CS5 also utilizes multiple cores much better, many operations in CS4 were only able to use 1 core! Having 8-cores (16 since there are 8 virtual ones) and seeing 7 of them picking there nose is discouraging to say the least. Imagine having 12
I wait a couple of generations with upgrading. The first thing I will be upgrading is my drives when SSD's are coming way down in price. My MBP is rocking because of the SSD, imagine a stripe set of 3 or more SSD's
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Yes CS5 is much better. If only for the usage of my memory. Annoying to see I have 24gb and most of it sitting idle while PS is doing a batch job. Much better in CS5. Content Aware with spot healing is a big time saver as well. CS5 also utilizes multiple cores much better, many operations in CS4 were only able to use 1 core! Having 8-cores (16 since there are 8 virtual ones) and seeing 7 of them picking there nose is discouraging to say the least. Imagine having 12
I wait a couple of generations with upgrading. The first thing I will be upgrading is my drives when SSD's are coming way down in price. My MBP is rocking because of the SSD, imagine a stripe set of 3 or more SSD's
Just surious I'm always using the MBP on location and in the studio for capture with LC and Capture One.
With the i7 and 7200rpm it's a lot faster than my duocore MBP last generation.
If I add the SSD can it be placed next to the drive, in other words I don't want to loose my internal drive.
There are some SSD's that can be placed in the expresscard slot but will those also speed everything up.
On the other hand, booting doesn't bother me and when I capture I will probably not store it on a SSD but on the 7200rpm anyway so will there be any advantage ?
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I cant see when the should be available I cant even pre-order it?
I currently have two MBPro's both have 500gb 7200rpm drives in there which the operating system sits on. One has another 500gb 7200 drive where the super drive used to sit and the other has a 120gb ssd. Obviously the ssd is faster and when I upgrade to a i7 (next rev.) I'll put in atleast 200gb ssd into the dvd space. I never burn dvd's and if I need to the external one is just as fast. I found an alternative to the optibay online that is easy enough to install.
I also did the same thing to a 27quad iMac but that was a pain to do.
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I cant see when the should be available I cant even pre-order it?
The Apple Store in Switzerland only says "August"…
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So November/Dec in Oz. Might jump on a plane to LA with my tenba. :-)
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I agree with (particularly) Bernard and Doug; I don't think we're seeing anywhere near the sort of innovation from Apple that there was a few years ago, in any of their products.
Granted I'm not firing huge workloads at my macpro (August 2006; version 1,1) that some of you are, but it's doing just fine. I'd happily admit that it's great engineering that's meant it still runs as good today as it did when I bought it. Doesn't really seem to have dated at all in terms of performance.
Is it the case that for most, even with pro photographers using big files, there's enough processing power available in the current lineup to fulfill needs, if not wants?
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Hi,
I have a 2 year old MacPro that really needs more RAM more than anything else. Do you think CS5 really would be all that big of an improvement. I must admit that Adobe’s software is the one quitting more and more often, but I think that’s because I need more RAM.
So long for now, TOM
If you are on Mac you are really missing out on CS5 compared to CS4.. I find the upgrade kind of meager as well, especially considering the price hike. I do like to put a 5870 in my 2009 MacPro (a flashed one that is ).
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Just surious I'm always using the MBP on location and in the studio for capture with LC and Capture One.
With the i7 and 7200rpm it's a lot faster than my duocore MBP last generation.
If I add the SSD can it be placed next to the drive, in other words I don't want to loose my internal drive.
There are some SSD's that can be placed in the expresscard slot but will those also speed everything up.
On the other hand, booting doesn't bother me and when I capture I will probably not store it on a SSD but on the 7200rpm anyway so will there be any advantage ?
There are Express Card SSD's however these are not as fast as the 2.5" SSD's though still at least twice as fast as your 7200RPM drive. There are also brackets that replace your DVD drive in which you can put a SSD.
The OWC SSD drives do 200MB/s write speeds & 300MB/s read speeds which is appr. 10x as fast as a regular harddrive. They are also allegedly much more reliable since they don't have moving parts. I would surely capture into a SSD instead of a regular drive when having a choice.
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Hi,
I have a 2 year old MacPro that really needs more RAM more than anything else. Do you think CS5 really would be all that big of an improvement. I must admit that Adobe’s software is the one quitting more and more often, but I think that’s because I need more RAM.
So long for now, TOM
Yes CS5 is definitely a big improvement over CS4 on the Mac. CS5 is what CS4 should have been (64bit for Mac as well, Windows CS4 was already 64bit). CS5 can use more memory, use more cores more efficiently. Depending on the amount of memory in your machine naturally but my guess is that unless you are really underspecc'ed upgrading to CS5 is going to have more effect.
BTW. I still have 12GB for sale, for use in a MacPro which came out of my MacPro (1 year old). Have to look up whether that fits in your machine though.
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I just found this interesting review from a professional point of view. Sad but true...
http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/...fessional-line/ (http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/)
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Pricing for the 12 core is indeed steep.
Maybe build a pc that runs macos
Or just keep using the macpro we are using now.
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I just found this interesting review from a professional point of view. Sad but true...
http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/...fessional-line/ (http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/)
That's a very good read. Thanks for sharing.
'Steve == Make more money' (...and to h3ll with anything else, like serving clientbase (pardon my french, as we say here))
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I just found this interesting review from a professional point of view. Sad but true...
http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/...fessional-line/ (http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/)
Nicely written blog.. thanks for sharing
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To everyone who appreciates Apple's hardware and software platform, make sure you give Windows 7 a try. Things have really turned for the better in Microsoft's domain. Just make sure you have quality and supported hardware and crashes will be a thing of the past. Also be sure you setup your system for LUA+SRP, this way viruses, trojans, and other malware will be a distant memory as well.
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To everyone who appreciates Apple's hardware and software platform, make sure you give Windows 7 a try. Things have really turned for the better in Microsoft's domain. Just make sure you have quality and supported hardware and crashes will be a thing of the past. Also be sure you setup your system for LUA+SRP, this way viruses, trojans, and other malware will be a distant memory as well.
I know windows 7. And trust me it's no SL
I work with both on a daily basis.
7 is much better than vista in most cases but there are so many differences it won't push me back to the pc for my own work.
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I just found this interesting review from a professional point of view. Sad but true...
http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/...fessional-line/ (http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/)
I have to pile on here. The critique linked above is very true and accurate from my pov.
Michael & I took a deep breath and upgraded to a refurb top-of-the-line 2.66 Quadcore MacPro about a month ago during the time I was trying to complete the Capture One Tutorial and knowing that Lightroom 3 was in the pipe - also knowing full well that a new MacPro was coming soon.
The price of the refurb was good with a substantial discount and the machine has already proven its worth as a second machine. BUT - all of its PCI slots are filled, I have had to replace the pathetic video card with something slightly less under-powered (the still-standard NVIDIA GeForce GT 120) in order to get smooth HD playback and I still need a second machine if I want to compress video and continue editing at the same time - and the new beast has 24 GB of RAM!
As the Brook Willard column points out, the new MacPro doesn't look any less in need of substantial add-ons.
Folk who need a pro Apple machine for professional apps are now in the hands of the after-market manufacturers - with no change from Apple in sight. Too bad.
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Honestly, the latest windows workstations like the high-end Dell are IMO to consider seriously.
I run both Mac and Windows, no doubt that until recently Mac was THE system to have. But they are getting worse step by step and curiously Windows is getting better.
Maybe in a close future, Windows will be what Mac was and vice-versa. So keeping an eye on windows product is not a wired fantasy.
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I have to pile on here. The critique linked above is very true and accurate from my pov.
I'm not defending Apple, God knows they can throw us all into a world of hurt from time to time, but in reality, I really do wonder how much profit is in a Macpro?
I go a lot of places and rarely, very very rarely do I walk into a studio, retoucher, pre press house (the few that are left), digital lab, editorial house, colorist that is running the latest and greatest MacPro.
In fact you'd be amazed at the number of G5's cranking along on their last breaths, being worked by very accomplished artists.
I have a tricked out tower, previous this latest generation, but it doesn't get even 50% of my use. Heck I now just buy new I-macs, run them till they're ugly and give em away like old lawn furniture, because honestly they're not worth much more and I don't get rid of them until they've just given up all usefulness.
Heck I run one of our servers off of a G4 dual processor because all it does is stay online and catalog drives.
Once again I'm not defending Apple, but I know in my business, I'm not going to spend a great deal of time and R+D on anything that doesn't result in better work and profits.
Also I loathe changing machines. It's never a simple clone and go procedure, half the software has to be dumped, relocated, updated, installed and then they're are issues.
I've come to the realization that it's not just money, it's time. I have one machine I cut 95% of our video on. It's slower than some of the other machines, but stable as a Rock and everything works from ftp uploads to burning dvds.
I'd like to dump it, but it works and nothing is worse than spending a whole bunch of money and then losing a week getting something up to speed.
As far as the PC thing, I've gone that route when Apple's USB was a slow as the DMV line, but in reality Vista and 7 weren't bad but just not that intuitive for a Mac User. You have to watch out for Viruses, load goofy software to read a Mac formatted drive and no offense to the PC world but man they can make some damn ugly machines.
The upside is their fast. The downside is I really don't care about another learning curve just for the sake of cutting my rendering time by 20%, relearning NLE software like AVID or Premier and buying all new PC based software just to speed my workflow by some percentage, even if that percentage is substantial.
Computers are enow like cameras. People with time on their hands and tech heads love to buy gear, but if you really knew how many of the photos the world admires were shot with 2nd or 3rd generation cameras, processed on 4th generation machines I think you'd be surprised.
We're kind of over it and unless somebody comes out with something you can't live without there is better places to put your time and money.
IMO.
BC
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I really do wonder how much profit is in a Macpro?
Your question suggests the answer: Time=Money. If machines can accomplish the same thing in half or better the time....
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kroowww... and no offense to the PC world but man they can make some damn ugly machines.... krowwnn
it is damn true!
That is what Apple always understood and windows never: the cool factor as you say in english.
But I completly agree with you about time-money equation, as Chris Sanderson also pointed.
But Chris makes another calculation: if time is money, and the latest machines do the same thing faster, we should then save money upgrading.
Yes and no IMO. It really has to be groundbreaking to see such a difference. Bc explains that many upgrades bring a lot of hassles and when you are in the middle of
heavy work, the last thing you want is a problem. I agree indeed with that statement.
Digital is wonderfull but it is like we need to control ourselves to not fall into the latest upgrades spirals.(and the sellers sirens calls)
This can be a frenetic consuming and the gain in time and money is never guarantee. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
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I should perhaps add that the older macpro is close to 4 years old... so for multiprocessing stuff like rendering video in AE or video compression, the difference is marked. But as pointed out by bcooter - it remains a good stable workhorse for everyday editing.
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I should perhaps add that the older macpro is close to 4 years old... so for multiprocessing stuff like rendering video in AE or video compression, the difference is marked. But as pointed out by bcooter - it remains a good stable workhorse for everyday editing.
But here we are Chris. This industry is going really fast. So now a new compression, a more powerfull format or whatever novelty oblige us to upgrade, and IMO you pointed more or less 4 years seems to be the max a device is usable before being obsolete.
That's the way it is yes, but I'm asking myself until wich point that politic is sustainable? and until wich point people are willing to accept the learning curve, from 4 to 3 years? From 3 to 2?
Are we going to arrive to the point that you buy something that will be completly obsolete 6 months later?
I'm concern about that speed really, and I think behind the scene it is more than just this industry but a way of (un)life issue.
It is like the new tech that was supose to help us is putting ourselves in a slavery state more than ever.
Honestly, since digital, do we spend more time with our wife and friends? And how much less (???) time do we really save in reaching the final result?
That would be good if we could answer to this question honestly.
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I just found this interesting review from a professional point of view. Sad but true...
http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/...fessional-line/ (http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/)
Very true indeed.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Very true indeed.
Cheers,
Bernard
Fascinating article.
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Digi Lloyd feels the same about the new Mac Pro, that he calls "semi-pro":
http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProWestmere.html (http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProWestmere.html)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've decided to just buy the 5870 today, when it's available.
I don't need all the extra slots but I don't think for Photoshop and final cut pro the 12 core will be much faster than what I use now, I would have to pay 3000.00 euro at least to upgrade and that's a huge amount of money for maybe a noticable slight speed increase, I think the new card will boost my 2008 macro much more.
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Let's face facts- the discussion whether Mac Pro, seen from hardware point of view, is still for pros or not could've taken place the very moment Apple decided to switch to Intel architecture. Now it's quite obvious.. there's nothing special about Mac anymore. It was the moment when they become the same computer as a PC, the difference was a beautiful and appealing aluminum box and, more importantly, the OS. It's literally THE SAME architecture, it's only OS that makes any difference. And the fact that you can get a monster-PC which is probably 2 times faster and twice as versatile for the same money as a Mac Pro (at least thats the case in Central Europe). Speaking of OS- neat and tidy Win XP (you have to know how to care for a Windows computer) with service pack 3 and *ALL* updates was as stable as they get in terms of Adobe Creative Suite applications, 3d software, rendering, etc etc. I've been using macs and pcs for years in flash/photoshop/illustrator/indesign and even though it's hard to crash Mac OS, the Adobe applications were crashing as much as they were on Windows based PC ( = they weren't crashing much, even though I squeezed the last drips of sweat from both while working with huge files). I don't have years of experience with digital backs software, but my back is 1.5 year old and during that time, using latest versions of C1 and earlier- Leaf Capture, I didn't notice any stability difference- neither in processing nor in tethering. My point is that a 'computer for a pro' is a computer which delivers. Nothing more and nothing less. And that's the case of your own habits and experience, whether you feel more comfortable with a Mac OS or Windows, it's a SUBJECTIVE choice.
Many years ago, Mac was the industry standard. Why? Because there wasn't really any competition. Now it's also a standard and a default platform, but it's due to the fact that people are USED TO Macs. Macs are not better. You can talk to Apple zealot and he'll try to convince you that Apple is far superior in all possible ways. Don't believe him, and him stating such things can tell that he's not a pro. In fact, there is one exception from this and that's movie (and more generally- motion) industry- the software for Mac is industry standard so there's no other solution really. Other than that and maybe some niche applications- it's only your own preference and subjective choice- you have to decide with which you feel more comfortable: is it a good-looking, gorgously designed not-so-high-end machine which is uncustomizable and expensive but has accordingly good looking and intuitive OS or is it an obscure plastic box with a rip-off OS, which will fit all your needs and more in terms of power and versitality for half the price of a Mac. There is no perfect solutions. For instance, for me the biggest benefit of working with a Mac is the aesthetics. I know I'll feel better when I draw, design, work on typography etc etc in Mac environment, because everything which surrounds me there is aesthetically appealing. It's easier to focus and not be disturbed but awkward and ugly design of Windows, even their fonts- I find them to be disturbing. I just don't understand how would any pro make a choice of their platform looking at the charts or thinking that a Mac equals rock-solid stability in comparance with a Windows PC. Maybe quite a few years ago, definitely it's not the case nowadays.
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As far as the PC thing, I've gone that route when Apple's USB was a slow as the DMV line, but in reality Vista and 7 weren't bad but just not that intuitive for a Mac User. You have to watch out for Viruses, load goofy software to read a Mac formatted drive and no offense to the PC world but man they can make some damn ugly machines.
Just to make sure everyone is aware, Windows XP onward did not have a virus attack vector issue, 90% of systems are not configured properly by their owners to be LUA+SRP enabled. I have not used virus scanning software in over 7 years. I NEVER have issues. I am sure you understand how that 90% of camera owners don't know how to properly create images... it is the same in the Windows world.
I suggest all running Windows to properly learn how to setup your machine. It takes about 10 minutes to setup LUA+SRP and then your good. This site has it written for a novice to understand:
http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/ (http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/)
I will summarize, "make any directory I can write to, NOT be executable", when you make that simple change along with being logged into the machine as a non-Admin, then viruses CAN NOT run, if your browser get's high-jacked and writes to a temp location, they CAN NOT run. You get the idea.
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Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true? I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems. However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.
Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?
You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.
Hmm...
CB
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Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true? I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems. However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.
Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?
You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.
Hmm...
CB
Well MainGear, looks nice but expensive, if I put together my current workstation I end up at 11.700 US which is around 9000EUR. Well I payed around 6000 for mine. So as far as I see it if you really want to save money, you have to built it yourself, other wise it will be expensive no matter whether PC or Mac.
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Let's not make this a Mac vs pc topic.
As mentioned before I've worked with PCs exclusively till 2 years ago, and still use PCs on a daily basis.
My wife owns a store that sells both PC and Mac.
There is a difference between the two.
One can say that a PC has the same specs so should be a better option but a PC is not a Mac and a mac is not a PC.
They are both different machines.
For me the attraction to the Mac was the simple fact that every component is optimized for the use they get.
Also speed. I never ever seen a PC in the time I bought my 8 core that was faster with huge files than that 8 core.
Now two years later there are fast PCs but when seeing the price point om something that would equal the new macro 12 core one can also not be done for half the price, only when looking at specs, but if you want the best components it's simply more expensive.
Leaves us to the simple fact that a pc doesn't run macos.
Ok windows7 is nice but it's no snow leopard.... It doesn't aperture, it doesn't run final cut pro.
Yes there are alternatives but I don't like light room that much and final cut is just better for me than avid or ulead or adobe.
I also don't like the fact you pay a lot of money for the MacBook pro or the macro but to be honest I never ever used a laptop that after a year of heavy used looked liked it was new out of the box.
I never had a PC laptop that never crashed on me on location, did not needed a reboot during a full day, or simply had the screen quality the Mac has, and to top it off that had powered FireWire to run my back.
Macs are no PCs and PCs are no macs, no reason to push people towards a PC, if they would have wanted they would do it
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Few things I'd like to add- first, yes- you cant buy twice faster PC for twice less money in the day of newest Mac Pro generation premiere.. but keep in mind that Macs will be refreshed with new CPUs probably in about 2 years. wait less than half year.
Then, second thing- Christopher is right that if you want to achieve a really fast PC within the mentioned budget, you'd have to buy it part by part. Yes, it is troublesome. Few months of delay + some time sacrificed to get that cheap parts and voila, you have it. Apple invests in great CPUs, ok mainboards / RAM and mediocre rest, to say the least. but the biggest disappointment and field of speed gain for PCs are the graphic cards. CUDA gains more and more ground, getting support from everywhere. Mac Pros usually come with these $50-100 graphic cards. And you can upgrade, but not that much.. ATI Radeon HD 4870? Please...If I was after performance / specs, I'd go for a PC. But for reasons mentioned in my post earlier, I'll stick with a Mac.
However, I admit I get more and more irritated by their marketing practices. The banner on their very first page informing how much they care and love their subcontractors following the suicidal events in Foxconn was hard to swallow for me. PCs are same story, it's all really messed up, but how much hipocricy can these Apple marketing guys engage amazes me.
And this also isn't encouraging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOGTbA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOGTbA)
oh yes, brainwash me
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Is the old "twice as fast for half the money" adage really true? I'm not sure where to compare Apples to Oranges, but I hear MainGear makes some smokin' inexpensive systems. However if you try to configure a 12 core machine at their website you're starting off at over $7k.
Any ideas who else would offer dual hexacores?
You can actually pile more ram into their case than the MacPro... actually 96GB but that and the 12 cores puts you at $14 grand.
Hmm...
CB
Given the camera gear you have put together, building a pc should be a cakewalk for you....
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It must be another sign of the weak economy that pros have time to waste with the age old, completely pointless debate of PC vs. Mac.
Buy what you like and use it.
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Are you surprise?
If those topic A vs B are inundating the internet forums.
As Frank said, these are different animals, and as C.Barrett also said, design plays a big role. There is no sense IMO, if you are used and happy with Mac design (wich is still a better design no doubt, at least in terms of usability)
to move to PC. What would you win? Another learning curve in the very very long list.
Very true also that PC can indeed be extremely powerfull, and beats the macs but then to a much higher price.
Also, most of the retouchers, videographers etc...are used to Mac more than PC and this is an important factor when you have people working for you in the studio.
I don't see PC for the moment, invading the photographic studios. For the moment, and that is where my point is. And my point is probably somewhat speculative.
The reality is starting to change in the sense that we observe a move on the Mac's politics with the pro devices.
Mac wants to fill the consummer marketplace with their products and that is not a very good news for us, because we all know what does it mean.
But this is not going to be relevant now, I think more in a long term so we do not have to preocupate, there are no reasons for it.
Just wait and see and keep an eye on Mac (because they are changing), but no rush to PC world. That makes no sense.
It is true that I was using Mac much more before, and I see myself using PC more and more. I'm used of both and that's fine.
Mac external design also is cool, it ads a visual design to the studio that does not have pc. Mac is clean, minimalist and looks better, for some it is also important.
Now, I've seen a degradation in their stores and services clearly. Mac is fashionable nowdays, very fashionable even in "targets" that where not addicted to Mac and the result reflects in their
products stored. Want a non-glossy screen? Not easy, waiting list. Unthinkable a few years ago. Things like that.
In Madrid, there are more and more Mac shops, sign of the time.
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Well it certainly is a important to what you are used to. I would never go back to a mac. I still have a mac mini sitting here, which is nice and fun, but I wouldn't say the OS is any better than Windows 7. On the other side I only worked for with macs for 4 years and worked with PCs over 10 years, so that could be the main point, why I just prefer to work with a PC. "Mac external design also is cool, it ads a visual design to the studio that does not have pc." Well I think there are some very nice designed PC cases which look better than any MacPro, but again everyone has different taste.
Which System is cheaper and so on, can't really be said until we see some actuall MacPro prices.
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Are you surprise?
If those topic A vs B are inundating the internet forums.
I don't think we have a PC vs Mac discussion here. At least not one that is based on brand loyalty as opposed to being based on an objective analysis of the value proposition put forward by both companies.
The OSX platform is very close to a camera system in that it is closed and leaves no options but those provided by Apple. Just like a closed camera system it did deliver good enough value to me until now to make me forget about the downsides of being closed. The past tense is important here.
Just like serious users of Nikon were rightfully mad at Nikon a few years back for not delivering to them the cameras they thought they needed, it is legitimate for people having invested in Apple with software and often more than one computer to be un-satisfied with Apple not delivering the kind of system we expect. Actually, not complaining this time around would be a sign of unreasonnable brand loyalty.
There are is only one reasonnable option besides OSX for people into using computers (as oppose to people building computers), and that is Win 7 as we speak. It is therefore unavoidable that reasonnable users of computers question the relevance of investing more money on Mac Pros at this point of time.
I do not need to upgrade my Mac Pro right away and will give Apple the benefit of the doubt over one more generation. If things stay what they are next time I will move back to what might be win 8 by then. That will be one more fact based decision similar to that involving buying a Toyota instead of a Hyundai.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Just to make sure everyone is aware, Windows XP onward did not have a virus attack vector issue, 90% of systems are not configured properly by their owners to be LUA+SRP enabled. I have not used virus scanning software in over 7 years. I NEVER have issues. I am sure you understand how that 90% of camera owners don't know how to properly create images... it is the same in the Windows world.
I suggest all running Windows to properly learn how to setup your machine. It takes about 10 minutes to setup LUA+SRP and then your good. This site has it written for a novice to understand:
http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/ (http://www.mechbgon.com/srp/)
I will summarize, "make any directory I can write to, NOT be executable", when you make that simple change along with being logged into the machine as a non-Admin, then viruses CAN NOT run, if your browser get's high-jacked and writes to a temp location, they CAN NOT run. You get the idea.
+1 here with NO VIRUS software or virus issues. I did have a few bot browser add ons a couple years back that anoyd me... that was cleared quick.
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What I find a bit dissapointing is the lack of expansion + expense of upgrades. The base Mac Pro system still has no onboard RAID, still limited to 4 spindles, etc.....
For the base price - you can do better:
http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end (http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end)
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What I find a bit dissapointing is the lack of expansion + expense of upgrades. The base Mac Pro system still has no onboard RAID, still limited to 4 spindles, etc.....
For the base price - you can do better:
http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end (http://imagesbymurray.com/technology/33-gracing-the-high-end)
Hello John,
After seeing your home build high end desktop I have a few questions.
I am a photographer that uses Photoshop. I use currently a Macpro 2008
in line with Diglloyds findings iI think that for photoshop a fast GPU is not that important . Because it hardly uses it.
Like him I even turned GPU acceleration off for it only brought me trouble- it makes the program instable ever since CS4 and turning it on does not add serious benefits.
Do you think that is a Mac related problem?
Also - only few programs use more than 2 cores - so one six core Westmere would be sufficient. and then rather the fastest one ( 3,33KHZ)
Does that sound logical to you?
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Also - only few programs use more than 2 cores - so one six core Westmere would be sufficient. and then rather the fastest one ( 3,33KHZ)
Does that sound logical to you?
Actually, there are some programs that make efficient use of multi-cores:
- Helicon
- C1 Pro
- autopano pro/PT gui (at least part of the process)
Besides we can expect further improvement and to see more and more use cases where applications making efficient use of multi-cores are used simultaneously.
So assuming that you intend to keep your next Mac Pro for 4 years, which seems pretty standard, I would personnally disagree with the opinion that 6 cores is going to be enough. Now the current prices of 6 cores CPU is beyond reason and it seems to me that this is not the right time to upgrade. I would wait one more generation of CPUs - probably 8 cores ones - before upgrading.
What is the issue with your 2008 Mac Pro?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Same goes for:
Hasselblad's Phocus.
Photoshop CS5 (not everything but quite a lot of parts of it use all cores it can).
I cannot tell about other programs but these 2 I have noticed on my own MacPro (2009 Nehalem model).
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Despite the limited number of applications with multicore support (it's my understanding that Lightroom is), it's important to remember that the underlying O/S *is*. The ramification here is that various operating system chores, disk access, etc will be offloaded to other cores - freeing up resources for the application in question.
In the case of GPU support, the machine I describe will effectively manage dual displays of up to 1920x1200. I've had no CS5 issues running one of these into a single 2560x1440 display.
Although I suppose you could call this a "home built" machine, assembling this is a bit more involved (I'm an Intel Channel Partner). I build a fair number of machines based on this platform for a variety of purposes, including Directory Services, Departmental Database, and Medical Imaging.
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What is the issue with your 2008 Mac Pro?
Cheers,
Bernard
As always if you try to do it right- it goes wrong… I installed CS5 premium production in a fresh installed OSX 10.6.4 environment but i only had problems- serious freezes with photoshop 12.0 - the hole system came down- twice a day
after doing it all over again i decided to put the cpu acceleration off- I had no freezes since… ( I know that is no scientific proof- but i have no time or knowledge to investigate it further)
Although I suppose you could call this a "home built" machine, assembling this is a bit more involved (I'm an Intel Channel Partner). I build a fair number of machines based on this platform for a variety of purposes, including Directory Services, Departmental Database, and Medical Imaging.
No offense- I am dutch ( that is my weak defense)- I only used the term 'home build' to state it was not an OEM system but put together by ones specific choice...
Same goes for:
Hasselblad's Phocus.
Photoshop CS5 (not everything but quite a lot of parts of it use all cores it can).
I cannot tell about other programs but these 2 I have noticed on my own MacPro (2009 Nehalem model).
I know some programs use my 8 cores (DXO for one) but they are rare. besides the hexacore is able to provide 12 lanes of work if i am not mistaken…
Photoshop CS5 is an improvement compared to CS4 but hardly uses more than 4 cores-
The main problem with photoshop 12 is the PSD format I guess- Opening and saving still uses one core.
It is rather silly to see photoshop saving again the 1 GIG file while you know you only changed some metadata ….
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I have to pile on here. The critique linked above is very true and accurate from my pov.
...
As the Brook Willard column points out, the new MacPro doesn't look any less in need of substantial add-ons.
I agree with many things he said re. the shortcomings of the MacPro, but I think he is plain wrong when he believes the G3/4/5 models were competitive .
Let's face it, the Mhz myth was just that - a myth, but one invented by Apple to defend their lacklustre hardware.
BUT - all of its PCI slots are filled, I have had to replace the pathetic video card with something slightly less under-powered (the still-standard NVIDIA GeForce GT 120) in order to get smooth HD playback and I still need a second machine if I want to compress video and continue editing at the same time - and the new beast has 24 GB of RAM!
No offence, but you must be kidding. Running a multi-core aware program, and keep using other power hungry apps at the same time ?
It's like doing squats while riding a bike uphill - something's got to give.
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...something's got to give.
Yep, the Lu-La pocket book did - for that 2nd machine
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The main problem with photoshop 12 is the PSD format I guess- Opening and saving still uses one core.
It is rather silly to see photoshop saving again the 1 GIG file while you know you only changed some metadata ….
I think you nailed PS biggest problem. This is MY biggest problem with the program. I thnk it is such a core issue, I can't see why so many others are not pulling hairs over this?
I know what you're thinking..."Save as a layered TIF". I myself like to be able to distinguish my layer files from my TIF finals. And I do this for work meaning, I need to find it fast without getting confused. So I have file types help me, and making a flat tif and a layer tif is not practical when you have over 100 folders you jump in and out of to edit for clients daily. READ/WRITE is the BIGGEST issue. Now the PSD single core and the drive writing is a MAJOR issue. My harddrives claim over 3GB sec R/W burst and 106MB/s sustained.....If I time it, its likely ALWAYS the sustained rate!!!! How do we make this right? We have UDMA CF cards that have finally been fast enough to clear buffers, why cant we get the files to save any faster? What harddrive can someone buy , say around $200 for minimum 1TB (thats more than 2x the price of a average drive) that can move some data?!...without Raid0, ssd obviously not an option for save/storage)
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No offence, but you must be kidding. Running a multi-core aware program, and keep using other power hungry apps at the same time ?
It's like doing squats while riding a bike uphill - something's got to give.
So we should expect to have a seperate system for CS5, C1, a DAM like ACDSee or what ever you like as a DAM, and say another for Acrobat, and Illustrator, and InDesign?
I alway need 3 of the above on...ACDSee, CS5 and C1 are constant. Usually Acrobat Pro, and often InDesign. Is InDesign hungry? Acrobat? Helicon? ACDSee?
I already have a seperate print "server" computer running the RIP to print, and double tasking doing emails, QuicBooks and Acrobat. then I have the tether to Digi back capture computer, then the G5 just sitting idle so I look cool to a Rachel Zoe Director that doesnt know any better, and another for web, TV, music. And another for the manager to use QBooks, MS Office, Acrobat, web, ACDSee. and all systems have Acronis, Acrobat CS4/5, ACDSee, and likely a couple other things.
What else do we NEED to isolate to get things to move FAST? I think its the hard drives that are slow to read and write PSD or even TIF files....thats the bottle neck in most systems I would say.
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I agree with the reading & writing being the current bottle neck. I am anxiously awaiting the moment SSD drive prices come out of the stratosphere. My 2009 MacPro handles everything mentioned above with 2 fingers in its nose figuratively speaking. The only times it slows down significantly is when it need to read and write a lot of stuff.
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I can only speak about my Windows Workstation. ( two Intel Xeons at 3ghz, 48gb RAM and so on. ) the gerat Thing is that i can do man Things at the Same Time. Let Ptgui work on panoramics, let C1 convert RAW Files and sort through Images in lightroom.
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I agree with the reading & writing being the current bottle neck. I am anxiously awaiting the moment SSD drive prices come out of the stratosphere. My 2009 MacPro handles everything mentioned above with 2 fingers in its nose figuratively speaking. The only times it slows down significantly is when it need to read and write a lot of stuff.
SSD in the normal world is not good for storage, size and being flash..Now Tex Inst has a TMS RAMSAN 630 or other models that DO look amazinf...but I have not heard any prices.
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SSD in the normal world is not good for storage, size and being flash..Now Tex Inst has a TMS RAMSAN 630 or other models that DO look amazinf...but I have not heard any prices.
I think even if you have very fast storage- the problem is still the CPU usage when saving a file-( psd format ) for the unelegant way it seems to compress each layer LZW -one by one ( at least it looks like it works like that)
Is that the reason you use- uncompressed- layered tiffs?
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I think even if you have very fast storage- the problem is still the CPU usage when saving a file-( psd format ) for the unelegant way it seems to compress each layer LZW -one by one ( at least it looks like it works like that)
Is that the reason you use- uncompressed- layered tiffs?
I sometimes do as I get more frustrated...But 90% I dont, as that is how I know my flat finals vs my layered files, and it would be a PAIN to convert over 4000 or more files to TIF layered and then the flat finals into PDF...as thats the only other format I know that is flexible and uncompressed