Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: fredjeang on July 02, 2010, 06:45:28 am

Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 02, 2010, 06:45:28 am
Hi,

After reading an article in french about the importance of the conjoined in the business I had this idea to post a thread on that matter.

It is different of what could be expected on that forum, but the article (not about photography) was pointing that according to researches,
the wife, the husband, the lover etc...have generally a real impact on the business side, whatever the activity sector is. They can enhance it or complicate it.

I'm aware that this is a little abstract and at the same time very real. I find the subject quite interesting. As we are in the business area, it is aimed to that
aspect, as the article was.

Obviously, I'm not talking about the muse. Remember Helmut Newton and his wife? She was not inspiring him artistically but she seemed to play a key role for him.

The article was stressing that the election of the conjoined can be really the most important one in once career.

Is or was your life compaignon a master peice (and peace...) in your carrer that has or had real consequences on the business side?

Is that statement, "being with the right person" true when it comes to professional activity?
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 02, 2010, 08:54:02 am
Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,

After reading an article in french about the importance of the conjoined in the business I had this idea to post a thread on that matter.

It is different of what could be expected on that forum, but the article (not about photography) was pointing that according to researches,
the wife, the husband, the lover etc...have generally a real impact on the business side, whatever the activity sector is. They can enhance it or complicate it.

I'm aware that this is a little abstract and at the same time very real. I find the subject quite interesting. As we are in the business area, it is aimed to that
aspect, as the article was.

Obviously, I'm not talking about the muse. Remember Helmut Newton and his wife? She was not inspiring him artistically but she seemed to play a key role for him.

The article was stressing that the election of the conjoined can be really the most important one in once career.

Is or was your life compaignon a master peace in your carrer that has or had consequences on the business side?

Is that statement, "being with the right person" true when it comes to professional activity?


Fred,
I have no doubt that many spouses are very wary of their husband's photographic obsessions and the excessive expenditure that may be incurred.

I remember years ago, when I was working in the Australian Public Service, a female colleague complained to me (or at least enquired for some insight) as to why her husband kept buying new cameras, but rarely took any photos. He just played with the cameras, apparently obsessed with the technology.

I was stumped for an answer. I've always bought cameras because they had features which I believed would be useful.

My first hi-tech camera was the Pentax Spotmatic with built-in light meter. I thought it was fantastic, and took many photos on Kodachrome (45 years ago) which I've scanned many times with different scanners.

I think we have to accept that there's a lot of status-seeking in the world, which people are prepared to pay 'big bucks' for. It may be designer clothes which are priced at 100 times the cost of production. It may be expensive sports cars with a speed performance which is illegal on most roads.

It may be expensive cameras which have a slight performance edge on a much cheaper competitor. I place MFDB in this category.

If you want the best bang for the buck regarding hi tech cameras, get the Nikon D3X. MFDB is for a world where money is no issue and the cost of hiring a model for a few days may be more than the cost of the MFDB camera.

If that's the case, as I believe it is, but correct me if I'm wrong, the $50,000 cost of a camera is no big issue.

I would imagine that any savvy wife even remotely aware of such issues would be very concerned.

There a very strong tendency in human behaviour, as I'm sure you understand, to compensate for deficiencies; ie. deficiencies in talent.

I'll add that I have no urge whatsoever to buy into an MFDB system.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 02, 2010, 09:08:06 am
Quote from: Ray
Fred,
I have no doubt that many spouses are very wary of their husband's photographic obsessions and the excessive expenditure that may be incurred.

I remember years ago, when I was working in the Australian Public Service, a female colleague complained to me (or at least enquired for some insight) as to why her husband kept buying new cameras, but rarely took any photos. He just played with the cameras, apparently obsessed with the technology.

I was stumped for an answer. I've always bought cameras because they had features which I believed would be useful.

My first hi-tech camera was the Pentax Spotmatic with built-in light meter. I thought it was fantastic, and took many photos on Kodachrome (45 years ago) which I've scanned many times with different scanners.

I think we have to accept that there's a lot of status-seeking in the world, which people are prepared to pay 'big bucks' for. It may be designer clothes which are priced at 100 times the cost of production. It may be expensive sports cars with a speed performance which is illegal on most roads.

It may be expensive cameras which have a slight performance edge on a much cheaper competitor. I place MFDB in this category.

If you want the best bang for the buck regarding hi tech cameras, get the Nikon D3X. MFDB is for a world where money is no issue and the cost of hiring a model for a few days may be more than the cost of the MFDB camera.

If that's the case, as I believe it is, but correct me if I'm wrong, the $50,000 cost of a camera is no big issue.

I would imagine that any savvy wife even remotely aware of such issues would be very concerned.

There a very strong tendency in human behaviour, as I'm sure you understand, to compensate for deficiencies; ie. deficiencies in talent.

I'll add that I have no urge whatsoever to buy into an MFDB system.
Thanks for your answer Ray, but I think my OP was not aimed that much on gear but on the impact concerning the professional carreer.
Although I admit your points (the lady breake ABS in opposition to the male crazy gear orientated) are maybe part of this oscur equation.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 02, 2010, 10:26:53 am
It's a difficult one to answer: at best, you can only really know your own situation intimately enough for truthful response to such a question.

In my own case, I was already married and we had two kids when I started off on my own. My wife was totally behind me in the venture and I have to say, through good times and the inevitable bad ones, she never complained or suggested I do something else. But then, we met when she was fifteen and I seventeen, so there were few surprises to come along out of the blue and rock the boat. Even our backgrounds were pretty similar and I'm sure that helped a lot too; for a start, I realised from school that we had different strengths and she was far more into mathematics and the sciences than I ever was, which even now reflects on my attitude towards digital.

As far as the work side went, she did a fair amount of business entertaining for us which went well because she was a very accomplished chef, she had seen her own parents doing the same business thing from a very young age and it seemed natural to her; she had a clear mind and very little went past her. I remember once when we were down in England because I had a calendar being printed by a firm down there: the guys took us out to dinner and towards the end they made a pitch for me to do a calendar for one of their clients. She almost choked with amusement because of the way it was done - wine em, dine 'em and then make 'em a pitch! She always found male business strategy a strange, silly business where to speak clearly and upfront would save so much time and money and confused messages. For a start, all parties would be sober and remember what went down. She never did seem to want to accept that the need for the booze stems from insecurity and that without that lubricant many can't function...

When I first started doing foreign shoots I used to travel alone with the model(s) and client, if the client wanted to come along, and it might have seemed every man's dream life. It wasn't. Working alone with a girl for a week or two quickly and inevitably brings up many unstated problems/situations. The glaringly obvious one is: if I make a play she will either respond positively or it could wreck the shoot if she takes offence. The alternative is just as bad: if I don't make a pass, will she take that as an insult? Will she think I wished I had booked somebody else? Both ways you lose and the work can suffer. So, as soon as budgets allowed, I formed an offical business partnership and we both went on trips together. It resolved the sex problem for both sides, gave the girls somebody to talk with about their spots and, better yet, gave me someone with whom to share memories of places we had worked in, which was far better than memories for and of one.

But, but and but: there were certainly times when I just knew that I would have got better results from the girl if we had not had a wife standing there helping out. It all depends on the time, mood and circumstances of the job. Some girls react very positively to verbal flirtation during a shoot whilst others just want to get on and do their job without saying much. They are all different and I suppose so are the photographers.

If anything, I believe that where a wife can be invaluable is in the client relationship, particuarly on shoots, where tempers can rise and it helps to have a calming influence present - a buffer, someone who sees both sides of a problem at once and has the personal skills to pour oil where the waters need it most!

Overall? I would do it the same way again.

Referring to Ray's comments about equipment and wives: when I was working, Ann never, ever complained when I sometimes stretched us a bit to buy something I thought we needed to make the photography more flexible. But, after I quit, she hated me to buy anything photography-related. Again, I have to admit that she was right and I was wrong. Perhaps that's why I have so little stuff anymore: I realised she was right and photographic life for the amateur does not depend on covering ever situation that life might throw in your face.

Rob C

Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 02, 2010, 10:35:59 am
Very interesting. Difficult topic indeed.
Thanks Rob for this well writen, as always, description of your experience.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 02, 2010, 10:49:37 am
Quote from: fredjeang
Thanks for your answer Ray, but I think my OP was not aimed that much on gear but on the impact concerning the professional carreer.
Although I admit your points (the lady breake ABS in opposition to the male crazy gear orientated) are maybe part of this oscur equation.

I understand Fred. I wasn't really addressing the business aspect. Business is business, and image is important in more ways than one. If the purchase of expensive equipment pays for itself because it attracts the clients, I see no reason why the average wife would object.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 03, 2010, 04:25:39 am
Quote from: Ray
I understand Fred. I wasn't really addressing the business aspect. Business is business, and image is important in more ways than one. If the purchase of expensive equipment pays for itself because it attracts the clients, I see no reason why the average wife would object.



Boy, Ray, that's a red rag to many a - well, hardly bulls! Bravery indeed, though I suspect that you have given up on expectiong much distaff response in this forum... more female superiority at work, then.

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 03, 2010, 12:21:46 pm
Quote from: Rob C
Boy, Ray, that's a red rag to many a - well, hardly bulls! Bravery indeed, though I suspect that you have given up on expectiong much distaff response in this forum... more female superiority at work, then.

Rob C

Hi Rob,
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I'm of the opinion that business is business whatever the product. All businesses advertise to encourage interest in their product, and a good advertisement always exaggerates the benefits of the product.

If I were in the business of producing photos according to the clients' needs, I might find that the use of ridiculously expensive photographic equipment would attract more clients and even justify higher prices. I'm sure I could explain that situation to my spouse.  
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 03, 2010, 03:21:36 pm
Quote from: Ray
Hi Rob,
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I'm of the opinion that business is business whatever the product. All businesses advertise to encourage interest in their product, and a good advertisement always exaggerates the benefits of the product.

If I were in the business of producing photos according to the clients' needs, I might find that the use of ridiculously expensive photographic equipment would attract more clients and even justify higher prices. I'm sure I could explain that situation to my spouse.  




Hi Ray

Guess you missed the added italics... " the average wife".

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 03, 2010, 03:34:01 pm
Quote from: Rob C
Hi Ray

Guess you missed the added italics... " the average wife".

Rob C

Of course I did. You're not supposed to change peoples' quotes, Rob. That's very devious.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 04, 2010, 04:38:51 am
Quote from: Ray
Of course I did. You're not supposed to change peoples' quotes, Rob. That's very devious.




Nonsense, Ray, I changed it in public, not behind the cycle shed!

Next time, maybe I'll go for the BOLD, but it's so vulgar it might be misunderstood...

;-)

Rob C

P.S. Any Russian shots to look forward to seeing?
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 08:25:06 am
My OP was basically not directed to the average whife or husband or lover or whatever who's going to watch if the mortage is not in danger after the last MFD purchase  

Think about Gala and Dali. Gala did have a real impact on Dali's business. Rob got it, but it seems that it does not interest anybody,

so back to gear specs, photokina rumors and sensors wars  

Cheers.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 04, 2010, 10:41:17 am
Quote from: fredjeang
My OP was basically not directed to the average whife or husband or lover or whatever who's going to watch if the mortage is not in danger after the last MFD purchase  

Think about Gala and Dali. Gala did have a real impact on Dali's business. Rob got it, but it seems that it does not interest anybody,

so back to gear specs, photokina rumors and sensors wars  

Cheers.



Hey, Fred

I think there might be two problems:

a.  maybe most photographers don't have time for a relationship;

b.  those that do are perhaps unwilling to risk telling the world how great the input of their wife, girlfriend, partner or whatever because if or when the divorce comes along, WOW! hoist by their own petard!

I think I joke.

I was lucky: the reationship came before the serious commitment to the work, before wish became do it, one of my very rare moments of impeccable timing. Hell, she even helped me finance my first adjustable camera, the Voigtlander Vito B, out of her pocket money. I think the thing cost about 23 pounds in 1955 or thereabouts.  Maybe she should have known then what was to come...

I think (hope) I joke again.

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 04, 2010, 11:05:47 am
Fred

Gala was one, but as we both know, Helmut had Alice, David Bailey had Jean as a muse if not wife, Sam Haskins had his wife working very cleverly, and unless I'm wrong, Patrick Demarchelier has had the same 'angel' for many years and as you say, I had mine. Picasso had a series, so I don't know if that counts as an advantage or a liablity.

Many fashion designers have had muses ( a muse fits into a separate but linked category) around whom they have built their reputations; my own was a young model who started out in fashion at more or less exactly the moment that I did. She came to see me for tests from the same agency I mentioned a couple of days ago that I heard about via their commercial over pirate radio - Radio Scotland - and that was it. From the first TXP in the Rollei I knew we were home. The joy of understanding that you have found somebody who is on the same wavelength, has all the energy and easily as much interest in the job as you do is worth its weight in platinum. I remember my in-laws meeting some other young model at some function and the girl saying to them, when she learned the connection with me, that had I but given the other girls the same attention... but she missed the point: it wasn't about trying others at all - it was about reaching upwards and outwards with the piece of good fortune you already hold in your life. I never liked surprises at work - happy accoidents, of course - but the thing about using one girl a lot is that each job you are building up from all that went before. Can anybody do that now, with costs as they are? And that was part of the bonus: we were happy to work with each other for the hell of it, no client involved, nada, just the buzz of new pictures. Priceless.

But, as with all good things, time moved inexorably along and brought change - husband, babies...

Now I have the blues again.

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 11:52:39 am
For what I know about Gala, she was far more prepared than Dali and had the right connections.
When she met him, Dali was a wreck, just about to give-up but she saw in him a genious mind.
She appears always as a docile spouse, hardly talk in public but she has the real control on the Dali business.
Also, she had very priviliged informations and litterally trained Dali.
In some interviews he talks about these things in between lines and has always recognized that without her he would have never
acheived the career we all know.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 11:58:52 am
Quote from: Rob C
Fred

Gala was one, but as we both know, Helmut had Alice, David Bailey had Jean as a muse if not wife, Sam Haskins had his wife working very cleverly, and unless I'm wrong, Patrick Demarchelier has had the same 'angel' for many years and as you say, I had mine. Picasso had a series, so I don't know if that counts as an advantage or a liablity.

Many fashion designers have had muses ( a muse fits into a separate but linked category) around whom they have built their reputations; my own was a young model who started out in fashion at more or less exactly the moment that I did. She came to see me for tests from the same agency I mentioned a couple of days ago that I heard about via their commercial over pirate radio - Radio Scotland - and that was it. From the first TXP in the Rollei I knew we were home. The joy of understanding that you have found somebody who is on the same wavelength, has all the energy and easily as much interest in the job as you do is worth its weight in platinum. I remember my in-laws meeting some other young model at some function and the girl saying to them, when she learned the connection with me, that had I but given the other girls the same attention... but she missed the point: it wasn't about trying others at all - it was about reaching upwards and outwards with the piece of good fortune you already hold in your life. I never liked surprises at work - happy accoidents, of course - but the thing about using one girl a lot is that each job you are building up from all that went before. Can anybody do that now, with costs as they are? And that was part of the bonus: we were happy to work with each other for the hell of it, no client involved, nada, just the buzz of new pictures. Priceless.

But, as with all good things, time moved inexorably along and brought change - husband, babies...

Now I have the blues again.

Rob C
I certainly beleive so!
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 04, 2010, 12:01:39 pm
Quote from: fredjeang
My OP was basically not directed to the average whife or husband or lover or whatever who's going to watch if the mortage is not in danger after the last MFD purchase  

Think about Gala and Dali. Gala did have a real impact on Dali's business. Rob got it, but it seems that it does not interest anybody,

so back to gear specs, photokina rumors and sensors wars  

Cheers.
 

Think about Gala and Dali?? Are you in search of titillating drama, Fred?  

Here's an extract from that wonderful encyclopedia, the internet.

Quote
Gala had a commercial streak. I am sure that came as a result of her childhood in Russia and her life as an ex-patriot in Paris. She became, well, not only an entrepreneur but a total opportunist. Regretfully, it spoiled the character of an otherwise wonderfully civilized woman, that's too bad. And also of course, she was a nymphomaniac and Dalí alone couldn't satisfy her sexually, so that boatmen or young actors or anything else would do. Eventually, Dalí got fed up and he slugged her in the Hotel Meurice. They broke up and that was the end for Dalí because she did all the business.

Not a good example, I think. Wouldn't you agree?

Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 04, 2010, 12:22:26 pm
Quote from: Rob C
P.S. Any Russian shots to look forward to seeing?

Lots! But I have other work to do before I sort through the 8,000 images I took in Europe and Russia. But don't get me wrong. I'm not a 'spray and pray' type because I'm not religious. I spray with confidence   .

I still haven't quite finished the grouting of my tiling. Remember that job I mentioned a while ago? I had an accident breaking my right wrist during a fall, which caused a delay. My European and Russian trip has caused another delay.

I also think I should get a new computer to maximise the benefits of CS5, and a huge desk to accommodate all my equipment. Thank God I don't have the deadlines of the professional   .

Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 12:22:42 pm
Quote from: Ray
Think about Gala and Dali?? Are you in search of titillating drama, Fred?  

Here's an extract from that wonderful encyclopedia, the internet.



Not a good example, I think. Wouldn't you agree?
Okay, some of these statements are truth.
But according to the nymphomaniac, I find that term really sexist. If a woman has, let's say it correctly as we are here, a strong sexual apetite, she is a nymphomaniac to the society. (nymphomaniac is consider as an hillness...) But if a man has the same apetite he is a sort of genious.
I love high-sexual-apetite women!

But despite her extravagances she did a lot for Dali at a time he was just sinking. Did he paid such a price for that? Yes, but much less than he won.
That was a very profitable equation for both. Dali was not a poor indefensed victim beleive me.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 04, 2010, 12:50:33 pm
Quote from: fredjeang
Okay, some of these statements are truth.
But according to the nymphomaniac, I find that term really sexist. If a woman has, let's say it correctly as we are here, a strong sexual apetite, she is a nymphomaniac to the society. (nymphomaniac is consider as an hillness...) But if a man has the same apetite he is a sort of genious.
I love high-sexual-apetite women!

But despite her extravagances she did a lot for Dali at a time he was just sinking. Did he paid such a price for that? Yes, but much less than he won.
That was a very profitable equation for both. Dali was not a poor indefensed victim beleive me.
 
Not really. If a man has an insatiable sexual appetite, it's also considered an illness. Consider the film star Michael Douglas and the more recent revelations re Tiger Woods. Sex addiction, whether in the male or female, is considered to be a treatable condition.

Since you seem to know something about Gala and Dali, is it true that Dali sometimes watched his wife having sex with other men? Did he use them as subjects for some hidden pornographic paintings?
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 01:08:13 pm
Quote from: Ray
Not really. If a man has an insatiable sexual appetite, it's also considered an illness. Consider the film star Michael Douglas and the more recent revelations re Tiger Woods. Sex addiction, whether in the male or female, is considered to be a treatable condition.

Since you seem to know something about Gala and Dali, is it true that Dali sometimes watched his wife having sex with other men? Did he use them as subjects for some hidden pornographic paintings?
I know from absolute trustable sources in France that Dali did organised hot parties at home, but he personally did not participate. He was not just interested. He would just disappear while the guests where living their life. That was also very wised.

We are now in the Luminous hotscape and don't know if not out of topic.
Moderators will irrupt soon with some ice cubes to cool down the terminology  
Maybe we should focus again on the matter and the photo business before they close it.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 04, 2010, 01:32:57 pm
Quote from: fredjeang
I know from absolute trustable sources in France that Dali did organised hot parties at home, but he personally did not participate. He was not just interested. He would just disappear while the guests where living their life. That was also very wised.

We are now in the Luminous hotscape and don't know if not out of topic.
Moderators will irrupt soon with some ice cubes to cool down the terminology  
Maybe we should focus again on the matter and the photo business before they close it.

Okay! I understand.

My spouse is Chinese. She has no practical business sense whatsoever. But she has a strong ethos of saving money. She'd spend $10 in order to save $5. We argue a lot but I guess I love her, against all reason. The European/Russian cruises were her idea.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 04, 2010, 03:06:32 pm
Quote from: Ray
Okay! I understand.

My spouse is Chinese. She has no practical business sense whatsoever. But she has a strong ethos of saving money. She'd spend $10 in order to save $5. We argue a lot but I guess I love her, against all reason. The European/Russian cruises were her idea.




Ray

Note my italics above!!

I always thought that that sort of psychology was the natural preserve of the Brits: we are reputed to be willing to drive fifty miles to a hypermarket in order to get three packs of cornflakes more cheaply than we can at the corner store. Well, when there were corner stores before the super/hypers killed most of them...

Regarding sexual appetite ŕ la affliction: it has always smacked, to me, as a defence born of an easy and modern way out of an embarrassing case of caught in the act! Never heard of a poor man having such a problem. He only gets caught in the act, if he gets caught at all, and it is either accepted and forgiven, possibly condoned or he goes to sleep alone for the duration of the sulk. Or due process.

Regarding relationships behind the artist - does it matter if they turned out to be positive or negative ones? The point is, they made the difference, however it turned out, and that's the theme - I think!

Rob
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 04, 2010, 03:10:37 pm
Quote from: Rob C
Ray

Note my italics above!!

I always thought that that sort of psychology was the natural preserve of the Brits: we are reputed to be willing to drive fifty miles to a hypermarket in order to get three packs of cornflakes more cheaply than we can at the corner store. Well, when there were corner stores before the super/hypers killed most of them...

Regarding sexual appetite ŕ la affliction: it has always smacked, to me, as a defence born of an easy and modern way out of an embarrassing case of caught in the act! Never heard of a poor man having such a problem. He only gets caught in the act, if he gets caught at all, and it is either accepted and forgiven, possibly condoned or he goes to sleep alone for the duration of the sulk. Or due process.

Regarding relationships behind the artist - does it matter if they turned out to be positive or negative ones? The point is, they made the difference, however it turned out, and that's the theme - I think!

Rob
Yes, that was the all point of the article too.
In fact he was stressing that it has a much more important influence that we generally might think. In a positive or negative way.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 04, 2010, 03:27:11 pm
Quote from: Rob C
Ray

Note my italics above!!

I always thought that that sort of psychology was the natural preserve of the Brits: we are reputed to be willing to drive fifty miles to a hypermarket in order to get three packs of cornflakes more cheaply than we can at the corner store. Well, when there were corner stores before the super/hypers killed most of them...

Regarding sexual appetite ŕ la affliction: it has always smacked, to me, as a defence born of an easy and modern way out of an embarrassing case of caught in the act! Never heard of a poor man having such a problem. He only gets caught in the act, if he gets caught at all, and it is either accepted and forgiven, possibly condoned or he goes to sleep alone for the duration of the sulk. Or due process.

Regarding relationships behind the artist - does it matter if they turned out to be positive or negative ones? The point is, they made the difference, however it turned out, and that's the theme - I think!

Rob

Rob,
It's all a matter of practical common sense. Some folks have it, and other folks don't. We're stuck with our genes and upbringing. Sex is an unavoidable reality. It has to be dealt with, one way or another.

I tend to opt for self control. I didn't shag those Thai transvestites I've posted images of on this site. They were just photographic subjects of interest who were compliant and proud to be photographed, just as I imagine many of your female models for Pirelli calanders were.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 05, 2010, 03:52:49 am
Quote from: Ray
Rob,
It's all a matter of practical common sense. Some folks have it, and other folks don't. We're stuck with our genes and upbringing. Sex is an unavoidable reality. It has to be dealt with, one way or another.

I tend to opt for self control. I didn't shag those Thai transvestites I've posted images of on this site. They were just photographic subjects of interest who were compliant and proud to be photographed, just as I imagine many of your female models for Pirelli calanders were.




Ray

I would imagine it might be very difficult to do what you believably deny doing: the limitations on available strategies would naturally seem to preclude it!

But it leads us into an as interesting thought: the model psychology.

One girl once told me that in her opinion, all of them, 'us' she phrased it, have something wrong with 'us'. I didn't believe it at the time, but those words have come back to me quite often over the years and I have started to include many photographers within the collective 'us'.

To be honest, I now believe some of us inhabit a sort of parallel world, a space where we try to suspend the humdrum, deny its existence even, in an effort to make life as interesting as we believe it should be. That's why some search for themselves within it whilst others simply examine the hardware. I have worked alongside other photographers who did the job, went home and never gave it another thought until the following day when they got off the bus or parked the car. Others I have known, self included, thought of little else all day long. I don't think you slip from one sort into the another - I guess you are type-cast from the beginning; as you suggest, the genes have a lot for which to answer!

But does it really make the measure of success or not? I remember seing a documentary on the 60s fashion photography scene and Jean Shrimpton was interviewed. As I remember it, she seemed not really to care much (at the time of the interview) about her fame at the time with Bailey. Yet there it was - success and the world at her feet and possibly without really caring about it all? Or because of not really caring? I don't appear to remember Shrimpton going through a decline: she was ubiquitous and then she was not; like a butterfly whose season arrives with a glow of warm sunshine and is then gone before you notice.

Is it delusion? Can we create a word for ourselves that matches the expectation, the hopes?

I still don't know and the time for finding out is pretty well blown.

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 05, 2010, 06:53:38 am
Quote from: Rob C
Is it delusion? Can we create a word for ourselves that matches the expectation, the hopes?


Rob C
I think that this word is clew: expectation

Strictly talking from my experience, and trying to avoid falling in abstract philosophy, the concept of expectation is the problem.

Precisely because there is expectation, there is no possibility of acheivement.  

When there is expectation, is that something is expected.
The problem is that there is a confusion between the acheivement of the expectation, the goal, and the way to reach that goal.

The goal is nothing exiting. When you get it, it is just disappointing, unsubstantial. And then you need another one because this one is just borring.
What really is exiting, is the path.

Think of a montain climber. What do you feel when you reached a summit? In this precise moment? You just stays there a few minutes because you have to go down quickly. People did not understand very well why Amstrong and Aldrin where not excited when they walked on the moon (please no hoax debate).
Simply because what is exiting is the path. Once you're there there is nothing, just boring but another chalenge.

Have you ever felt some kind of short depression when you finally acheived a difficult project? You've been working on it like crazy during many time, you put all your energy and expectations in it. Suddenly, you did it, it's done. What do you feel? Depressing instant. Nothing interesting any more there. Nada.
Suddenly you feel completly empty. The sense of your efforts has just collapsed on these seconds.

The path is the goal, and the goal is the path.

So, what is exiting is the shooting, not the result. Not the 2 pages editorial in Vogue that has been acheived, but just the shooting.
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 05, 2010, 08:27:08 am
Quote from: fredjeang
Have you ever felt some kind of short depression when you finally acheived a difficult project? You've been working on it like crazy during many time, you put all your energy and expectations in it. Suddenly, you did it, it's done. What do you feel? Depressing instant. Nothing interesting any more there. Nada.
Suddenly you feel completly empty. The sense of your efforts has just collapsed on these seconds.



That's exactly right.

I can remember the sudden and unexpected depression, alone in the studio after the model had left following a great shoot.

As for post-c blues - let's not even go there. That's why even in the movies the folks light up a cigarette - nothing better to do with their hands or minds. Many things collapse in those few seconds, many regrets surface.

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Ray on July 05, 2010, 09:15:56 am
Quote from: fredjeang
The path is the goal, and the goal is the path.

So, what is exiting is the shooting, not the result. Not the 2 pages editorial in Vogue that has been acheived, but just the shooting.


Fred,
I think we can agree on this point. It certainly resonates with me. This concept is often phrased as "Life's a Journey", or, "It's the Journey that counts".

But for me, I get two paths; the excitement of travelling and taking photos, followed by the excitement of exploring the editing and processing possibilities offered by Photoshop   .
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: fredjeang on July 05, 2010, 10:03:47 am
Quote from: Ray
Fred,
I think we can agree on this point. It certainly resonates with me. This concept is often phrased as "Life's a Journey", or, "It's the Journey that counts".

But for me, I get two paths; the excitement of travelling and taking photos, followed by the excitement of exploring the editing and processing possibilities offered by Photoshop   .
Agree. That is also part of the path. So I'll ad to my previous post "just the shooting and the editing".
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 05, 2010, 12:46:21 pm
Quote from: Ray
Fred,
I think we can agree on this point. It certainly resonates with me. This concept is often phrased as "Life's a Journey", or, "It's the Journey that counts".

But for me, I get two paths; the excitement of travelling and taking photos, followed by the excitement of exploring the editing and processing possibilities offered by Photoshop   .




And there we differ: once the shot's shot, so am I. I find the subsequent processes to be relatively boring. I get very little buzz from actually doing any Photoshop stuff even though I do sometimes enjoy the final result on paper or on the sceen. For me, that's a part of the 'journey' too far, a bit like that last hour on the journey back home.

But this isn't new: it was like that even in my youth. My enthusiasm was all tied up in the shoot - everything after that was not so much anticlimactic as much as a nuisance. As with the tourist trade, photography shares the common sentiment: why can't they just send the cheque and stay home?

Rob C
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: blansky on July 06, 2010, 02:16:09 pm
As for the business side of studio portrait photography which is my background, the wife may very well be the reason that many male photographer are still in business. The basic premise that a creative person is rarely good at business is probably true and whether it's blowing money on the latest equipment or the fact that he knows and cares very little about the actual business side of things, the wife is very often the one who holds things together.

A lot of the most successful portrait photographers (main street studio types) all have the wife running the business end, the hiring, selling, talking to clients and booking sessions, and handling the advertising.

In fact a lot of the newer studios are now run by women, with women photographers and managed by them as well.

Maybe men are an endangered species.

Michael
Title: The importance of the spouse
Post by: Rob C on July 07, 2010, 05:10:32 am
Don't know about an endangered species, but I think you are pretty much on the money, Michael, regarding the rôle of women in some businesses. I think that a great part of it may have to do with inter-personal skills: females seem to have these under a far better state of development than do males, which is partly why I suppose so many of them are to be found at the sharp end of selling to the public. Further, where they are working in tandem with a male photographer, they are able to disassociate themselves from the immediate zone of damaged pride should any little quibble arise about the work - they can agree, or explain why they do not, in a one-step-removed manner and even suggest mutually helpful solutions.

The one thing they should have, though, is real understanding of the subject if they are in a specialist situation. Few things are more frustrating than being up against a woman who really doesn't know what she's talking about - there is the frustration of not wanting to be rude mixed with anger at the thought of perhaps having this woman there for that very purpose of fobbing one off!

So like Kodachrome, she has to be very good or she ends up being very bad! (Thank goodnes I usually met good Kodachrome ladies in those little cassettes.)

Rob C