Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: annamaerz on June 18, 2010, 04:47:30 am
-
I need help with these RGB values in Phase One's Capture One Pro advanced color editor. I do not understand at all what these values stand for! Which RGB model are they in? I thought, maybe C1 uses the output RGB model, which I leave at ProPhotoRGB. But that makes no sens here. Or maybe somehow the camera's space?
Let me give you some examples. I tried to understand the patches from the color checker RAW image.
"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 ???
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 ???
...
I 'm sure all this is easy, but I can't figure it out.
Thanks in advance for your help.
-
Or maybe somehow the camera's space?
yes, they show the values of the input profile.
The RGB values shown centered at the top of the viewer are referring to the output recipe (resp. to the proof profile).
Which RGB model are they in?
RGB and HSV
-
yes, they show the values of the input profile.
The RGB values shown centered at the top of the viewer are referring to the output recipe (resp. to the proof profile).
I don't understand that at all, tho_mas. My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB, and the C1 Base Characteristics ICC Profile is set to "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic", but these values do noy make any sens in Adobe RGB:
"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 ???
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 ???
...
Which RGB model are they in?
RGB and HSV
Yes but RGB what ??? To what does this relate? Which RGB model? How could RED be R13 !!! G59 B39?
-
I don't understand that at all, tho_mas. My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB, and the C1 Base Characteristics ICC Profile is set to "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic", but these values do noy make any sens in Adobe RGB:
"Dark Skin" patch gives me R83 G66 B51 (That makes maybe sens in ProPhotoRGB, which I use for output).
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 ???
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 ???
For a detailed analysis of digital sensor colorimetry, see this article by Doug Kerr (http://dougkerr.net/pumpkin/articles/Sensor_Colorimetry.pdf). In your camera's raw file, the RGB values that are recorded represent the output of the RGB elements of the Bayer array. These values depend on the sensitivities of the elements to red, green and blue light and determine the color space of the sensor. Because of failure to meet the Luther-Ives conditions (see the article), Mr. Kerr argues that this is not a true color space such as ProPhotoRGB. However, a standard color matrix conversion can be used to convert from the camera space to a reference space such as CIE XYZ or directly to the working color space such as ProPhotoRGB.
If you set your camera to Adobe RGB, the preview on the LCD will be rendered into aRGB as would a JPEG output from the camera. However, the raw file will be recorded in terms of the camera space, and the file will merely be tagged with the intended Adobe space. If you use the camera maker's raw converter (DPP for Canon), the converter will read the tag and render into Adobe RGB. Other raw converters (such as Adobe Camera Raw) will ignore the tag, and it is up to the user to select the space for the rendered raw file.
In your instance, the Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic profile tells the raw converter how to convert from the native space of the camera to the chosen working space. Although I don't use C1, I would imagine that the RGB values are in terms of the chosen working space.
-
My 5dm2 is set to Adobe RGB
that only affects the camera JPG, not the RAW file...
"Light Skin" patch reads R17 G15 B14 ???
"Red" is R13 G59 B39 ???
in fact those values don't make sense.
could you please post a screenshot of the picked colors in the Color Editor, like here:
[attachment=22659:col.jpg]
Yes but RGB what ??? To what does this relate? Which RGB model?
Color model or color profile?
As already mentioned, the values shown in the Color Editor are related to the camera profile (unlike the RGB values on the top of the viewer which are related to the output).
-
I think I understand.
- The aRGB in the camera is in fact only a tag for the JPG-rendering and for the Canon software.
- The RGB values in the Color Editor are based on the input profile, namely "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" in this case (which renders the camera sensor color data)
- The RGB values on top of the viewer are related to the output profile, that is, in this case, ProPhotoRGB selected in the "process" tab.
I will most definitely read this article, bjanes.
Now, in the advanced color editor what are those RGB values, and how do they make sens. Here is the screen shot tho_mas:
[attachment=22661:Untitled_1.jpg]
different pic, but still, how could red be R15?
-
[attachment=22661:Untitled_1.jpg]
different pic, but still, how could red be R15?
I don't know, that's weird.
The respective color should look like this:
[attachment=22662:5d2_15_46_41.jpg]
Maybe something strange in your color- resp. color management settings ... but I've no idea.
Sorry...
-
I'm not getting your response. I uploaded a photo of an MacBeth chart and white balanced on medium gray. I checked red, green and blue values using the Color Editor in the advance mode. My readings were 183, 139, and 144. The green number is much different CS5 were I got a green reading of 171. The red and blue numbers were relatively close, with the CS5 numbers being a 5 or so points higher. Some of that variance depends where I took the reading within the color square--the reading would vary 3 or so points within the color square.
At least I never got a 15 reading on red.
Good luck. I'm going to continue to rely on my eyes and rely on getting the numbers consistent within the C1 and not compare to other program.
-
Make sure your monitor color profile is correctly loaded for the display C1 loads into. I've had a few screwball color situations come up related to that, one drove me crazy with white balance RGB values being slightly off - I restarted my machine and it fixed it. Totally odd, OS issue I guess.
-
Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.
To sum up:
- ColorChecker, studio strobes @5500
- RAW files from 5Dm2
- tethered Capture One Pro 5.1.2
- only WB, no other treatment
- Base Characetristics ICC Profile "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" with standard film curve
- Proof Profile set to "Selected Output Profile (Default)"
- Process Recipe ICC Profile "ProPhoto RGB"
-
Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.
To sum up:
- ColorChecker, studio strobes @5500
- RAW files from 5Dm2
- tethered Capture One Pro 5.1.2
- only WB, no other treatment
- Base Characetristics ICC Profile "Canon EOS-5D MkII Generic" with standard film curve
- Proof Profile set to "Selected Output Profile (Default)"
- Process Recipe ICC Profile "ProPhoto RGB"
Shoot a color chart and see how it reads the red. Maybe you could post the image and we can test the colors and see what we get.
-
Shoot a color chart and see how it reads the red. Maybe you could post the image and we can test the colors and see what we get.
Here is the crop of the ColorChecker. Except WB and -0.10 exposure, nothing else. It's a jpeg with ProPhoto RGB profile embedded, directly processed out of C1.
[attachment=22691:Untitled0000768.jpg]
and a screen shot again, of how this same thing reads here:[attachment=22692:Untitled_2.jpg]
-
Red being R15, this can not be just an issue of slightly off color balance. Also I work on a properly calibrated and profiled dual Eizo setup.
what happens if you switch back to a single monitor setup? (temporarily, just for testing...)
-
what happens if you switch back to a single monitor setup? (temporarily, just for testing...)
Ok, I tried that with a restart, but the problem remains.
A colleague just found out that someone posted on Phase One's user forum about the same problem ( http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8771 (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8771) ) but till today there seams to be no answer or solution!
-
Anna,
I got the following RGB reading from your color chart: R 188, G 158, B 165. If you are getting 15 in red, then I would go to PhaseOne and submit a trouble ticket. There is something wrong with your program (maybe they will have you reinstall) or a setting is off. Your problem is something I've never heard of before and hopefully never will again.
Good luck
-
submit a trouble ticket. There is something wrong with your program (maybe they will have you reinstall) or a setting is off.
Meanwhile I did both. I opened a case with Phase One technical support. I also deactivated, uninstalled, restarted and than reinstalled 5.1.2 Pro. The values remain the same.
Your problem is something I've never heard of before and hopefully never will again.
Well, it seems that we are not alone, as we found at least one user in the P1 forum that experience apparently the same problem, but, at least in the forum, there is no answer to the problem.
-
anything new?
-
Please help me with this: In relation to my case:
Under WINDOWS 7, do you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker.
Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.
Thanks a lot
-
Please help me with this: In relation to my case:
Under WINDOWS 7, do you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker.
Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.
Thanks a lot
Sorry, I use a MacPro. Maybe it is a Windows thing.
Good luck
-
Sorry, I use a MacPro. Maybe it is a Windows thing.
Good luck
Maybe it is. FOr that reason I would need help. If other C1 user under Win7 could check, it would be of great help.
The question is, whether you get coherent RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor (not on top of the viewer)? It is easy to notice when using a ColorChecker. Could you please specify which kind of windows 7 you use. I use Win7 64bit Ultimate for example.
Thanks a lot
Maybe I should start a new thread with that?
-
I get the same as you (Win7 64B) and I can check on a Vista64B machine tomorrow or Thursday.
It's clear that the numbers don't mean anything conventional. While on the Advanced colour editor I get R19, G74 and B60 on a corrected Macbeth chart (picking red), above the image the picker shows me R148, G56, B23, L80.
-
I get the same as you (Win7 64B) and I can check on a Vista64B machine tomorrow or Thursday.
It's clear that the numbers don't mean anything conventional. While on the Advanced colour editor I get R19, G74 and B60 on a corrected Macbeth chart (picking red), above the image the picker shows me R148, G56, B23, L80.
OK. That makes already 4 Win7 64bit user, that get meaningless RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor. Maybe we should start a new thread, and ask other win7 users?
We filed a case.
Did you? Maybe you should, don't know. It appears to be a bug.
Anyone else?
-
Just something that crossed my mind - is it possible to resize the colour editor window ? Maybe parts of the numbers are hidden (i.e. you see 15 where it should be 115). I don't have C1 so can't test myself.
-
Just something that crossed my mind - is it possible to resize the colour editor window ? Maybe parts of the numbers are hidden (i.e. you see 15 where it should be 115). I don't have C1 so can't test myself.
Thank you Rainer! I really like your idea, especially as I had the same. But it has no influence. Anyways one can use the RGB values above the viewer. It's for sure not the same thing but you can make go.
-
OK. That makes already 4 Win7 64bit user, that get meaningless RGB values in the Advanced Color Editor. Maybe we should start a new thread, and ask other win7 users?
We filed a case.
Did you? Maybe you should, don't know. It appears to be a bug.
Anyone else?
I checked my Vista 64b system and it has the same issue.
I don't really have time to create a case with C1 but I think I know what's happening. I don't have time to create any screenshots so I'll try to describe;
It's recording the value of the height of the level histogram of the colours that the picker is on...
Example;
Open your levels tool and select the red histogram
Select your advanced colour editor and the picker then click on the red box on your colour checker image
Look to see where in the level histogram the indicator falls
Now look to see how HIGH the histogram is at the point (make a % estimate with 100 being the box max)
Switch to the blue level hitogram then hover back over the red box on your colour checker.
The indicator is now at a completely different place in the histogram (lower of course)
But look to see where the indicator intersects the height of the level histogram
Repeat for the Green
You should find that the numbers you jotted down are approx what you have in the advanced colour editor box.
Give that a try and see if you get the same.
-
I checked my Vista 64b system and it has the same issue.
You are right! There is a similar issue with the Levels! I see what you mean, allbite it's a bit different by me (see attached screen shot):
[attachment=22761:C1_bugs_and_issues.jpg]
You clearly see that blue is higher then red for the red patch! But it does not seem to be directly corresponding to the bug in the advanced color editor, because here the green value is significantly lower than the blue and the red one.
Maybe you should also file a case. I think it would be important. That way Phase one can be aware of the fact that there is more than one bug in Capture One, not only concerning Windows 7 and the advanced color editor, but also Vista 64bit and Levels.
-
Not only C1 5.1.2 is concerned, already at least in 5.1.1 we had these issues.
-
As a dealer for Phase One I just wanted to extend my thanks to the community for bringing such detailed/carefully-analyzed bug reporting on such issues.
While people like me, and a few of the members of the Phase One team (including notably Yaya who is very active here) do try to pass forum-posted bugs I would note that Phase One has a huge customer base and receives many bug reports, feature requests, and therefore has built a modern system of receiving, checking, and prioritizing such reports - it is through their support system at phaseone.com. It's not your job to find such bugs and report them, but if you're in a generous mood I would encourage you to start a support case (like annameraz did) so that the Phase One team can properly log your findings, verify them, and (hopefully) fix them in a future version.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
Just right now we got a message from Phase one, saying that a future update will fix the issues with the Advanced Color Editor, Levels and the crashes.
As Doug said, I think it is important to file a case with the problems you encounter, as it was clearly demonstrated in this case. P1 would maybe still not be aware of these issues. It is obviously in our common interest that our preferred image editing software gets better and better.
Only, before we filed a case, we wanted to make sure that this was not just simply induced by some mistake on our side.
Thank you.
-
I'll do that if I have a chance. things are a little quieter now.
By the way are you getting frequent crashes on Win7? I probably don't get more than 20 mins or so of processing before it crashes. The log files say it's out of memory as though it's not using the virtual memory on the HD. As it's a 32 bit app it can't use the full 8 or 12GB I have on my Vista/Win 7 machines respectively. It seemed quite stable for a couple of weeks, but I have a vague feeling that it started having trouble when I increased the amount of floating tools and started using the Viewer on my main screen to view the full image (all tools on my 2nd screen). I use the floating tools extensively so that C1 has a similar feel to PS. As a test yesterday I killed all of my workspaces and created a new one without the viewer but a lot of floating tools. I'll be checking to see how stable this is over the next 4-5 days.
-
By the way are you getting frequent crashes on Win7? I probably don't get more than 20 mins or so of processing before it crashes.
Exactly the same thing here.
The log files say it's out of memory as though it's not using the virtual memory on the HD. As it's a 32 bit app it can't use the full 8 or 12GB I have on my Vista/Win 7 machines respectively.
Same here.
It seemed quite stable for a couple of weeks, but I have a vague feeling that it started having trouble when I increased the amount of floating tools and started using the Viewer on my main screen to view the full image (all tools on my 2nd screen). I use the floating tools extensively so that C1 has a similar feel to PS. As a test yesterday I killed all of my workspaces and created a new one without the viewer but a lot of floating tools. I'll be checking to see how stable this is over the next 4-5 days.
I tried that and it had no influence.
I think it is very important to that you file a case. I would like C1 to work, because as it is, it's on the verge of being unusable in some situations. I already had to look for alternatives.
-
Thanks for the feedback... I will do that
-
I think it is very important to that you file a case. I would like C1 to work, because as it is, it's on the verge of being unusable in some situations. I already had to look for alternatives.
Like a mac? :-)
Seriously though Dell is a good customer of ours so we put a lot of effort into making sure we could support them properly. We've had several customers running Capture One 8 hours a day in a full-production environment with absolute stability (in this case defined as approx. 1 crash every week in a facility with four capture stations) with Win 7 64-bit. We've also had two customers have a nightmere of a time trying to resolve what the issue was with frequent crashes. One of those two found his solution with an anti-virus software and the other bought a Mac - his was a strange color problem rather than crashes and ended up being tied to a corruption of his user account but the process of troubleshooting wore him out so much he still changed systems.
Generally speaking Windows 7 64 and C1 should run fantastically together, but if there is a problem Windows machines can be a nightmare to troubleshoot (not that macs are without any issues!) because of the variety of manufacturers/component-combination/driver versions/OS versions and the annoying copy protection of the OS (with a mac you can just plug any other mac in by firewire and boot the computer from the software of the target system but the hardware of the host system to see if the issue is hardware or software related.
I once spent most of my free time for two weeks of my life troubleshooting Photoshop crashes on a Windows XP machine during college. So I sympathize with you! Please keep us up to date on the forum here of what you find through your support case!
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
By the way are you getting frequent crashes on Win7? I probably don't get more than 20 mins or so of processing before it crashes. The log files say it's out of memory as though it's not using the virtual memory on the HD.
There are a number of people (including me) reporting this exact issue in the Phase One forums.
-
There are a number of people (including me) reporting this exact issue in the Phase One forums.
I've submitted a case for this now.
-
Running win 7 64bits, no crash, no problem, nothing.
(the only precaution I had was to removed previous versions).
I must say anyway, that my computers are pretty well maintained. Not because I know how to, no! these things are not for me. But I run only a very limited range of softwares that I really need and use.
I don't know if it has something to do.
-
Running win 7 64bits, no crash, no problem, nothing.
(the only precaution I had was to removed previous versions).
I must say anyway, that my computers are pretty well maintained. Not because I know how to, no! these things are not for me. But I run only a very limited range of softwares that I really need and use.
I don't know if it has something to do.
I'm the same really. I built both of these PCs (oh-oh there's a commonality ) and they both only run photo software for editing and printing. Nothing else is unstable on them.
-
Like a mac? :-)
Seriously though Dell is a good customer of ours so we put a lot of effort into making sure we could support them properly. We've had several customers running Capture One 8 hours a day in a full-production environment with absolute stability (in this case defined as approx. 1 crash every week in a facility with four capture stations) with Win 7 64-bit. We've also had two customers have a nightmere of a time trying to resolve what the issue was with frequent crashes. One of those two found his solution with an anti-virus software and the other bought a Mac - his was a strange color problem rather than crashes and ended up being tied to a corruption of his user account but the process of troubleshooting wore him out so much he still changed systems.
Generally speaking Windows 7 64 and C1 should run fantastically together, but if there is a problem Windows machines can be a nightmare to troubleshoot (not that macs are without any issues!) because of the variety of manufacturers/component-combination/driver versions/OS versions and the annoying copy protection of the OS (with a mac you can just plug any other mac in by firewire and boot the computer from the software of the target system but the hardware of the host system to see if the issue is hardware or software related.
I once spent most of my free time for two weeks of my life troubleshooting Photoshop crashes on a Windows XP machine during college. So I sympathize with you! Please keep us up to date on the forum here of what you find through your support case!
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
I might believe the there's-more-pc-configurations excuse, if I hadn't been using C1 for years and seen it go from rock-solid 3.0 to the mess it is today. I also often use it on the Mac, and there's plenty of issues there.
I've gotten to the point where I dread upgrading C1 because every time there's been new, worse bugs introduced. I now randomly lose capture settings with 5.1.2 regularly, resulting in loss of time and confused clients. I'm curious at what point it will start simply destroying captures.
knock on wood...
I like the results P1 delivers, but man, one competitor that comes along with just as good files and a working interface will get my money.
-
Running win 7 64bits, no crash, no problem, nothing.
(the only precaution I had was to removed previous versions).
I must say anyway, that my computers are pretty well maintained. Not because I know how to, no! these things are not for me. But I run only a very limited range of softwares that I really need and use.
I don't know if it has something to do.
I am running the 5.1.2 BETA "Out of memory fix" which seams to have fixed a few other issues as well. I am finally happy with C1 :). I technically do not understand how it is possible that you are able to run the standard C1 on win64 without crashes and issues ????! Only this new 5.1.2 beta adresses that.
nino
-
I am running the 5.1.2 BETA "Out of memory fix" which seams to have fixed a few other issues as well. I am finally happy with C1 :). I technically do not understand how it is possible that you are able to run the standard C1 on win64 without crashes and issues ????! Only this new 5.1.2 beta adresses that.
nino
BTW the fix does not address the nonsense data produced by the Color Editor and the Levels tool!
-
Same here, I'm also using the Out of Memory Fix Beta on my Vista 64 bit (8GB) machine. No crashes but the colour values are still meaningless. My Asus MB died on my Win7 machine a couple of weeks ago. I've just got it back and have yet to rebuild it, but I'm hoping for the same.
-
[...] I've just got it back and have yet to rebuild it, but I'm hoping for the same.
good luck and let us know about c1 on you rebuilt computer.
P1 wrote me today that they still work on that...
-
The new 5.2 PRO solved the problem, at least on my computer.
nino