Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: pcunite on June 08, 2010, 01:53:59 pm
-
With the iPhone 4 having an IPS display it is now clear to me why spending over $8K on a camera does not get you that much of an LCD preview. There where simply not enough of them to go around with the planned iPhone 4 rollout. $300 for an iPhone gets you IPS... who would have guessed?
-
It's 960x640 too. A pixel pitch like this would be great on a MFDB.
-
With the iPhone 4 having an IPS display it is now clear to me why spending over $8K on a camera does not get you that much of an LCD preview. There where simply not enough of them to go around with the planned iPhone 4 rollout. $300 for an iPhone gets you IPS... who would have guessed?
I would happily spend $300 more on a MF camera if it had IPS display. iPhone users will be far ahead of photographers with 30K cameras in the area
If we could get a wireless transmitter that would connect to the firewire port of a camera and send images directly to an IPhone or an iPad that would partially solve the problem, though.
-
With the iPhone 4 having an IPS display it is now clear to me why spending over $8K on a camera does not get you that much of an LCD preview. There where simply not enough of them to go around with the planned iPhone 4 rollout. $300 for an iPhone gets you IPS... who would have guessed?
A few weeks back I bought a HTC Desire with that same exact screen. It's a beauty..
-
If we could get a wireless transmitter that would connect to the firewire port of a camera and send images directly to an IPhone or an iPad that would partially solve the problem, though.
Me too, I am so hoping for wireless jpeg (I think raw is out of the question) transfer capability to my iPad.
-
a 3.5 screen with that resolution and quality....and it comes with the a4 chip.....and wifi N.....and an incredible and pretty open os.....a shame that nobody has found a way to attach a nice 30mpix mf sensor to it....
-
the OS is not open. that is the whole issue with it.
still, I loooove my iPad and would love this phone, but can't work without a full qwerty kb.
-
Maybe just add Apple's "FaceTime" to a MFDB to get WiFi preview on an iPhone or other device that adopts it?! I believe that Apple is making FaceTime open. Or some "iPhone as remote" App.
-
A few weeks back I bought a HTC Desire with that same exact screen. It's a beauty..
HTC desire screen is 800 x 480 on a 3.7 in display or 252.15 PPI, iPhone is 960 x 640 on a 3.5 on a display or 329.65 PPI... anyway those are a couple of incredible screens that sould be on a MDF back...
-
HTC desire screen is 800 x 480 on a 3.7 in display or 252.15 PPI, iPhone is 960 x 640 on a 3.5 on a display or 329.65 PPI... anyway those are a couple of incredible screens that sould be on a MDF back...
Yay, now we're not only competing with Mhz and MP; let the PPI race (http://blog.gsmarena.com/how-does-the-iphone-4-pixel-density-stand-in-comparison/) begin.
-
Yay, now we're not only competing with Mhz and MP; let the PPI race (http://blog.gsmarena.com/how-does-the-iphone-4-pixel-density-stand-in-comparison/) begin.
Whatever. The original poster claimed it was the same, and it really isn't even close.. Lower Rez, AMOLED, and not ips.
And it is kind of significant that a mass market display has broken the 300 dpi threshold. Sign of things to come?
-
Whatever. The original poster claimed it was the same, and it really isn't even close.. Lower Rez, AMOLED, and not ips.
And it is kind of significant that a mass market display has broken the 300 dpi threshold. Sign of things to come?
My groaning was more about what marketing people will do with the PPI figure, rather than the very welcome PPI improvement. I'm afraid beating the competition on PPI will become just like MHz and megapixels: an end in itself. Just like there's more to IQ than mere megapixels, computer power than mere MHz, there's more to display quality than PPI.
-
My groaning was more about what marketing people will do with the PPI figure, rather than the very welcome PPI improvement. I'm afraid beating the competition on PPI will become just like MHz and megapixels: an end in itself. Just like there's more to IQ than mere megapixels, computer power than mere MHz, there's more to display quality than PPI.
I agree with you. Theres a lot of variables in the IQ of a display besides PPI, but if all the other variables (contrast, angle etc etc) are equal the more PPI the better. But anybody can't deny that jumping from 165 PPI to 330 it's a HUGE improvement. Here at work I can clearly see the diference between my 24in iMac (94 PPI) and my 27in iMac (108 PPI) at same viewing distance, and that's only a 15% increment on PPI. What I really would've loved to see is a refresh ot the 3 year old 30in cinema display with the same PPI of the iPhone 3G (from 100 to 165 PPI)... imagine that, a 4224 x 2640 30 inch display... that would grab my attention immediately! . Of course, like you said, there's other variables and I guess that's why apple choose to refresh the cinema displays first with LED instead of increasing the PPI...
-
My groaning was more about what marketing people will do with the PPI figure, rather than the very welcome PPI improvement. I'm afraid beating the competition on PPI will become just like MHz and megapixels: an end in itself. Just like there's more to IQ than mere megapixels, computer power than mere MHz, there's more to display quality than PPI.
I agree, and, in this case, the marketing numbers don't show how superior the Apple display is. A few of the major tech blogs are saying the iPhone 4 screen blows everything out there away, even the resolution isn't THAT much greater.
-
I am also looking forward to working with the camera....instead of simply cramming more pix in there, they actually kept the pix size the same and made the sensor larger! what a concept....
so far everybody is saying the screen is the best there is so far....but the htc one seems to be pretty amazing as well....either one would be fine on any camera...
-
I agree with you. Theres a lot of variables in the IQ of a display besides PPI, but if all the other variables (contrast, angle etc etc) are equal the more PPI the better.
You're not kidding. Especially when as photographers our requirements are often exactly opposite of the consumer. Consumers want bright, super saturated, contrasty displays.
We want (generally) color accurate, color stable monitors with highly controlled contrast and brightness. We also care about things like evenness of illumination, viewing angle, calibration precision/accuracy, and how well tonal transitions are done (always a big problem for consumer monitors and even monitors marketed as being for photography) and correct shadow/highlight detail rendering.
That said I would KILL for a display with good photographic properties which also had 300+ ppi. I could not believe the spec when I saw it introduced; I assume someone made a typo. I thought I was pretty on top of technological trends and what was forthcoming, but 300+ ppi was not on my radar for 2010. It tells me that in a few years we can expect high-end photo monitors to also have 300+ ppi and that will be good news for everyone.
Plus not every photographic application demands monitors with stellar photographic specs. I bought an iPad mostly to use it to show portfolio work. It is bright, contrasty, saturated and you can't calibrate it, and the tonal transitions are not fantastic, BUT when you're showing a client all they notice is the picture looks "pretty". I couldn't use it for retouching, judging image adjustments, or print-matching, but I can use it to wow potential clients. Of course now I wish my iPad was 300+ ppi! I've got PPI envy!
Also 300ppi would be killer for something like a 5DIII or the RED cameras for video since it's pretty hard to judge fine focus as it is on the LCD (without zooming and thereby losing the ability to view the full frame).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
I would just love to even have the Iphone tethered if nothing else. Just make a Apple connection to Firewire 400 cable and make C1 Iphone friendly just for tethered shooting it writes to the CF card as usual but sends a small preview to the Iphone. Just have to buy shirts with pockets. LOL
Can we pass this on PLEASE.
-
Also 300ppi would be killer for something like a 5DIII or the RED cameras for video since it's pretty hard to judge fine focus as it is on the LCD (without zooming and thereby losing the ability to view the full frame).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
.... and on a phase/leaf/hasselblad/sinar....... it sounds like a broken record - but for how f...... long do we still have to put up with this laughable displays on our backs - when other electronic devices for a fraction of the price can deliver a proper display - feeling better now - well at least until I look at my MF display again.....
/A
-
It tells me that in a few years we can expect high-end photo monitors to also have 300+ ppi and that will be good news for everyone.
[/font]
Even 300 PPI for consumers are great news for photographers and designers. With the iPad everybody knows that web and electronic publications are the future (for me those are the present) and I've heard many times that todays DSLR's are to much for a 1024x768 px web images and MFD is WAY to much for that (and I agree just with the resolution standing point)... suddendly with this kind of displays instead of filling a 1024x768 px space at 100 PPI we will have to fill a 3072 x 2304 space at 300 PPI and that's are awesome new's for me... it will show all the flaws or all the awesome details in a photograph. Of course theres room left for improvement like wider gamut, contrast etc etc.
As Guy said, I would love to see any kind of wireless preview implementation on this iPhone... or iPad.
-
As Guy said, I would love to see any kind of wireless preview implementation on this iPhone... or iPad.
I would love that too - but after they have put that screen on the back itself.... Photokina is not that far away..... come on surprice us!
-
I would just love to even have the Iphone tethered if nothing else. Just make a Apple connection to Firewire 400 cable and make C1 Iphone friendly just for tethered shooting it writes to the CF card as usual but sends a small preview to the Iphone. Just have to buy shirts with pockets. LOL
Can we pass this on PLEASE.
This is possible right now with Canon cameras...:+}
DSLR remote pro works great.... with Canon and iPhone that is..
Snook
-
This is possible right now with Canon cameras...:+}
DSLR remote pro works great.... with Canon and iPhone that is..
Snook, dSLR Remote Pro is [Camera ---> Computer ---> iPhone/iPad].
In other words it still requires that you tether the camera to a computer.
You can do this with any Canon, Nikon, Phase One, or Leaf camera with Capture One and any VNC program. Read my posts on this recent thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=43885). Doing it with Capture One also has the obvious advantage that you're still using Capture One with all of it's features/power/quality. I'll be posting our preferred solution in the next week.
A direct (and fast/stable/usable) [Camera --> iPhone/iPad] solution which does not require the camera to be connected to the computer seems at least a year away for ANY camera and my bet is that Leaf/Phase-One will have it before anyone else based on the fact that Leaf had a good-but-not-great solution like this available years ago with an iPaq (notice the q) Windows handheld computer. But only time will tell and whoever does it first (assuming they do it well) will have contributed a great tool to the photographic community.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
A direct (and fast/stable/usable) [Camera --> iPhone/iPad] solution which does not require the camera to be connected to the computer seems at least a year away for ANY camera and my bet is that Leaf/Phase-One will have it before anyone else based on the fact that Leaf had a good-but-not-great solution like this available years ago with an iPaq (notice the q) Windows handheld computer. But only time will tell and whoever does it first (assuming they do it well) will have contributed a great tool to the photographic community.
Hi Doug,
do you have a wild guess how far we are from seeing an Iphone or similar screen direct on a back??? that would be a fantastic tool to the photographic community
I'm not even talking about live-view here, just a good reliable screen - but live-view would be a phenomenal tool to the community - I know, I'm asking to much here... way to much
/a
-
I would love that too - but after they have put that screen on the back itself.... Photokina is not that far away..... come on surprice us!
Agreed these will have to make there way to the backs themselves. Not sure anyone anywhere would disagree with that but even a quick fix with a cord would make me happy for right now. Would love to have something like this in the field it would ALMOST eliminate a laptop. In reality we use these types of devices more for checking lighting, exposure and what we need to fix on set or even in the field. Even a good guide would be helpful even if it is not color balanced, wide gamut and such. Most shooters unless tethered to a computer with something like a Iphone or Ipad device would accept those limitations. I know I would for sure. I'm willing to settle for 50 percent of the solution today and hopefully see these on the backs in the next versions coming.
Admittedly I am pretty dang old school and shot for years without even a polaroid so almost anything would be good, I'm not asking for the ultimate solution but some baby steps to get to the ultimate solution along the way would be great.
-
do you have a wild guess how far we are from seeing an Iphone or similar screen direct on a back??? that would be a fantastic tool to the photographic community
I'm not even talking about live-view here, just a good reliable screen - but live-view would be a phenomenal tool to the community - I know, I'm asking to much here... way to much
I know people and I read a lot, but I am NOT an engineer and I can't predict the future. But since you asked I will give you my wild guess; take it for what it is... 1-2 years before we see direct-to-iPad/iPhone wireless tethering on ANY camera (which is fast/stable enough to be useful). If I were a betting man (which I am) my money would be Leaf/Phase or Canon will be first with a usable solution given their past and current offerings of wireless. But it could be any company, and it could be anytime.
I fear cables will be with us longer than anyone (manufacturers/photographers/dealers) would desire.
-
I know people and I read a lot, but I am NOT an engineer and I can't predict the future. But since you asked I will give you my wild guess; take it for what it is... 1-2 years before we see direct-to-iPad/iPhone wireless tethering on ANY camera (which is fast/stable enough to be useful). If I were a betting man (which I am) my money would be Leaf/Phase or Canon will be first with a usable solution given their past and current offerings of wireless. But it could be any company, and it could be anytime.
I fear cables will be with us longer than anyone (manufacturers/photographers/dealers) would desire.
Doug,
sorry, maybe I was not clear enough - I'm not talking about tethering here - I'm talking about a decent screen on my back with the specs from the new Iphone or a like.... a type of screen that we have been screaming for a looooong time now - will we ever get that in the near future???
I'm not a betting man - I'm just an AP with a simple dream about my back having a screen that compares to devices that cost 40-50 times less..... still dreaming??
/a
-
sorry, maybe I was not clear enough - I'm not talking about tethering here - I'm talking about a decent screen on my back with the specs from the new Iphone or a like.... a type of screen that we have been screaming for a looooong time now - will we ever get that in the near future???
We sympathize with your frustration. The Leaf lineup (now the Aptus II) has had a great large and high resolution touchscreen LCD since 2005 but the Phase One lineup does not. It's a testament to Phase One that they have continued to lead the market despite not leading the industry with LCDs.
Do bear in mind that a "looooong" time ago in December 2007 was when the 1Ds III shipped with a good LCD. So that's a 2.5 year gap. That's a lot of time in a world where everything is expected to be updated every 1.5 years, but it's not a period of unfathomable length.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
1Ds mkIII has a good screen? News to me. My 5D original's are better than my mkIII.
-
1Ds mkIII has a good screen? News to me. My 5D original's are better than my mkIII.
All things are relative; put the 1Ds III next to the 1Ds II for an idea of what I mean :-).
You can pick whatever product/year you want as the benchmark. Many non-pro point and shoots had good (relatively speaking) LCDs before the Canon 5D. The 1Ds III is my own personal point of reference because it was the first time Canon put a decent LCD on their body targeted exclusively at professionals.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
-
We sympathize with your frustration. The Leaf lineup (now the Aptus II) has had a great large and high resolution touchscreen LCD since 2005
Yes I know, I have used them since 2006 - and yes they are large but I would not call them great my PS cameras have always had better lcd - I really like the interface of the leaf backs, they just deserve a better screen.
I will leave it for now and hope for the future!
thanks!
Adam
-
Also 300ppi would be killer for something like a 5DIII or the RED cameras for video since it's pretty hard to judge fine focus as it is on the LCD (without zooming and thereby losing the ability to view the full frame).
how strange, a simple P&S can zoom only within a certain square area corresponding to the focus point (including it) leaving the rest of the screen (surrounding area) of its LCD to show the full frame for you...
-
I remember back to the summer of 2008 before Photokina when Phase One announced the P65. Phase had taken a lot of bashing here and elsewhere about the quality of the LCD on the P45 and the P25. I thought at the time, well, here they are releasing a brand new back with the highest resolution of any photographic product in the marketplace at the astonishing price of $42,000. There is no way that Phase will not update the LCD on the P65 to a state of the art LCD. I was wrong. Same old LCD on a $42,000 digital back! Now it's the summer of 2010, a few months before the next Photokina, and here is Pentax with a medium format camera for $8,500 with a real decent LCD(though not the state of the art in LCDs). Is it conceivable that Phase will show up at Photokina with a new camera or back with the same old, same old LCD? Sure. 90 mp for $50,000, same LCD. I wonder if I will upgrade. [G]
-
I don't get it Apple IPhone 4 Parts Cost About $188 (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2010/tc20100627_763714.htm)
"a 3.5-inch LCD screen that Apple calls a "retina display." As the smartphone's most expensive component, it costs $28.50 and may have been made by LG Display"
-
I don't get it Apple IPhone 4 Parts Cost About $188 (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2010/tc20100627_763714.htm)
"a 3.5-inch LCD screen that Apple calls a "retina display." As the smartphone's most expensive component, it costs $28.50 and may have been made by LG Display"
Cost of parts is just one component of cost-price of manufactured goods, and often not even the most significant. BW points it out clearly in the article: "The estimate doesn't include costs for items such as labor, shipping, advertising, software development, or patent licensing."
-
Cost of parts is just one component of cost-price of manufactured goods, and often not even the most significant. BW points it out clearly in the article: "The estimate doesn't include costs for items such as labor, shipping, advertising, software development, or patent licensing."
I understand that part, I'm a graphic designer too and I'm aware of all the other "hidden" costs too... but what we don't understand is why a $20,000 camera can't have a decent LCD or at least a decent way to preview an image without a PC... I'm not saying a $28 retina display or the whole $299 iphone stuck on it or a "expensive" $500 LCD... they should have by now at least the 2 year old nikon D300 922,000 pixel LCD.
Hasselblad had their chance to change this with the H4D-40... pentax 645D has done it, I know pentax has all the pentax k series to help with LCD units demand... but how companies like Ricoh have close deals for LCDs and hasselblad and phase one have not?... It's that low the MFD demand? or how come sony, nikon, canon, pentax, kodax, panasonic, samsung, Fujifilm, olympus, ricoh, leica, coby, LG, HTC, Motorola etc etc have done it? maybe next photokina...
P.S. I understand all the heat and processing power issues too, but pentax and leica have already done it, so that shouldn't be an issue by now.
-
Maybe phase, leaf and hasselblad should start making point and shoots so they can get their order numbers up on the screens to get lcds and have a way to share r&d costs? Imagine how many of us freaks would love to have a phase one point and shoot? only four buttons though, they couldn't imagine changing a thing like that:)
-
Phase One: how about bulk ordering a few hundred canon ixus (ixuses? ixi?), ripping out their LCD and dropping them into the back? I would really wonder if there would be one back owner who wouldn't pay at least 1000$ to get a great screen on their p65+
-
If this source is to be believed, the price of a iPhone 4G screen is... 29US$. http://www.koreaherald.com/business/Detail...=20100629000901 (http://www.koreaherald.com/business/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20100629000901)
Now, that is true when Apple buys it...
To be fair, there are engineering constraints with backs due to the sensitivity of their CCDs to heat,...
Cheers,
Bernard