Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: neil snape on May 29, 2010, 05:20:09 am
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Just wanted to vent and share this with anyone thinking about buying an HP printer.
I have a 24" Z3200 Photo printer left over for testing.
I use it occasionally, but printing needs are really small now, and other than printing the rare portfolio print, the printer has seen nothing but test prints on OEM or third party papers.
Since new the printer had 81:01 Paper Jam errors , when there were no paper jams or any other possible cause.
5 times I had to call , wait for a service person to show up, 5 times the same story.
I have had excellent phone support, just the follow up dismal. Like not showing up on the day reserved, times, or not having the parts that were supposed to be replaced.
Out of these times, the process of recording the service calls changed so the history was lost between times too.
Each time the technicians replaced the same parts.
Each time it changed nothing , the intermittent 81:01 paper jams continued on both roll or sheet fed.
Each time I asked why sheet paper sometimes goes up the sheet back tray thingy and sometimes not. No answer. No answer for the tray to have malformations either which was NOT replaced, their suggestion put a piece of tape here and there. Since the repair people only know CAD printers I suppose they never had any training in photo. That is okay HP is abandoning photo anyway.
So I had the same errors saving the scraps of roll, sheet etc when it happened but the printer so rarely used, I didn't have the time or patience to ask again, after all 5 times, wasting ink media, and my time is a bit much.
I phoned again this week when yet another print did not complete.
Furious, as the printer is useless in the state it is, unreliable, and not worth anything to anyone in this state.
The answer from Tech support was oh , we only guarantee the repairs for 3 months. You're out of luck.
My answer is incompetent repair people, lousy build quality, lack of honouring guarantees, lack of follow up, generally a buy an extended support program type of deal for which I know why*
I certainly hope that the Epson 9900 I use would have better support if needed than this.
Funny how when others had serious problems I couldn't really feel what they felt until now. Certainly will have a hard time ever recommending any HP printer again, regardless of some of the fine qualities they have!
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Sorry to hear about your bad experiences, Neil. I've had the full range of good to bad support from HP. Some very capable and dedicated types, and some apathetic and untrained ones.
You mention that HP is abandoning the photo market. I know that they seem to have checked out of the large desktop segment with the abandonment of the B9180, but thought they still seemed to be moving forward in larger format with the recent introduction of the Z5200, but it is an extension of the high volume target market, not specifically photo or fine art. Do you think they have given up on fine art and high end photo printing already?
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Since new the printer had 81:01 Paper Jam errors , when there were no paper jams or any other possible cause.
I realize this is probably not the cause of your 81:01 error, but thought I would offer this suggestion anyway. My identical 81:01 Paper Jam error was caused by the fact that the wire that locks over the blue handle that accesses the printheads wasn't seated exactly correctly. It looked OK, but re-seating it onto the handle a couple of times caused the 81:01 error to go away.
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I realize this is probably not the cause of your 81:01 error, but thought I would offer this suggestion anyway. My identical 81:01 Paper Jam error was caused by the fact that the wire that locks over the blue handle that accesses the printheads wasn't seated exactly correctly. It looked OK, but re-seating it onto the handle a couple of times caused the 81:01 error to go away.
Interesting. I didn't know there was a wire in there, but will look. The first time , the online support suggested opening and closing the print head cover. He said this was often a faulty part with the Z series. The other tech service people had no idea on that subject.
I know the wire that runs from the paper feed to the logic board is easily undone. I have checked that often, and the rocker switch was replaced twice already.
If anything I suspect the body of the printer to be out of alignment which was discussed here on MM by others. Hence the paper not always ending up in the right path, nor the paper path sensor working properly.
Thanks.
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Sorry to hear about your bad experiences, Neil. I've had the full range of good to bad support from HP. Some very capable and dedicated types, and some apathetic and untrained ones.
You mention that HP is abandoning the photo market. I know that they seem to have checked out of the large desktop segment with the abandonment of the B9180, but thought they still seemed to be moving forward in larger format with the recent introduction of the Z5200, but it is an extension of the high volume target market, not specifically photo or fine art. Do you think they have given up on fine art and high end photo printing already?
HP won't be trying to hold their CAD and high speed market. In fact that is where they have been going for many years. The Z printers are spin offs of the CAD printers, for which a lot of good research was conducted. Yet unfortunately the chassis and design is poorly done, poorly adapted from CAD printers. Things like a decent aspirated feed, tray, thick media printing, etc, would have made the difference.
They checked out when they didn't agree if the 18" model should be a Photosmart or a Design Jet. They abandoned the market when they decided that dedication to the market was not a priority as it is with Epson or surprisingly Canon.
I remember top brass at Epson telling me that for them is is indeed all about money, but the products have to be solid to continue advancing.
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I certainly hope that the Epson 9900 I use would have better support if needed than this.
Wishful thinking there. It wouldn't. Doesn't sound like much was accomplished, but at least the HP guys showed up and made an appearance. That's more than I ever got from Epson.
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Wishful thinking there. It wouldn't. Doesn't sound like much was accomplished, but at least the HP guys showed up and made an appearance. That's more than I ever got from Epson.
Don't know, haven't had any problems with the 9900, it's the schools anyway not my personal printer.
I just went through the logs. 81:01 errors since the beginning of the printer life. Always the same thing, always the same result. 5 times for service guys to come, not able to fix it. HP doesn't honour their repairs let alone have a diagnostic for fixing the darn things. In the US the tech support guys measured the printer bed, here they just swapped parts. Do it once okay , but you have to expect to look deeper if it doesn't work or fix the problem.
Whenever I have had repairs on monitors etc, I always had a written guarantee of 6 months or more on the repair work done.
One thing that really bugged me was the repair guy saying you should really get the extended warranty.
I'd say that is either a sign of either the competence of their repair work , or a sign of build quality.
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Sounds like they should just replace the printer, offer you a refurbed model, something. Cheaper for them, better for you. Sadly, common sense doesn't always seem to come into play any of the big three's support. Then again, there are people who pour a cup of coffee into their printer or drop kick it and then expect a replacement. Those folks make life harder for the rest of us.
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Is this HP France? Did they give you this printer or did you buy it with an extended warranty? You were all glowing and were a super public endorser of HP when they gave you one to play with awhile back.
My support has always been good in the US. I bought the 3 year extended warranty that was very reasonable, and the one time I needed them to replace the Hitachi hard drive, they showed up as they said the next day and took care of it in 10 minutes with no charge. There was some bad media out there they replaced it by giving me 3 extra 44" rolls, and once again showed up the next day to evaluate that. That was a defective factory run in Germany. I have used my Z daily for everything for three and a half years, and it has been incredibly reliable and far less wasteful with ink than any of my Epsons and NO retarded ink switching nightmares. If you are not in warranty with any of these companies you are screwed. All I can say is got my money's worth out of my Z the first year I had it and I'd never go back to Epson, Canon maybe, we'll see how they perform with reliability.
john
Sounds like they should just replace the printer, offer you a refurbed model, something. Cheaper for them, better for you. Sadly, common sense doesn't always seem to come into play any of the big three's support. Then again, there are people who pour a cup of coffee into their printer or drop kick it and then expect a replacement. Those folks make life harder for the rest of us.
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My experience with HP is bad as well. Now I did not have a Z series but I had a B9180. I had it for a little over a year. After it went out of warranty I started to have issues with clogs. I called HP support and they said it sounds like print head issues. So they suggested I buy a new print head. I bought it and same issue including the same thing across the board on all heads. So get this I replaced all print heads and bam same thing. They then told me it is more and likely ink and to replace all carts. Did that... same issue.
So I wasted all that money on ink and new print heads to have the same outcome. Top that off with me having to pay for the support. After not having a working printer I asked if I could get some sort of credit towards a replacement and the answer I got was no. They suggested I buy a new B9180 or get a Z series. I was furious. They wouldn't take the new ink or heads back because once it was opened it was not returnable.
I played with the printer for 3 months trying to get it working right. I cleaned the NEDD (or whatever its called), I came to the conclusion that something was wrong with the vacuum that sucks the ink into the heads. I basically wasted $400 on ink and heads (maybe more) and ended up throwing it away.
Epson on the other hand has been awesome. I had a r1800 that was 3 months out of warranty that had issues. After speaking with tech support for 2 days they finally just replaced it for free. All I had to do was pay for shipping.
My 7900 has worked flawless so I can't really say much about the support for it, but I am guessing it is top notch (i hope).
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Probably there are going to be issues with every printer out there. The design paradigm is to make money on the ink not the printer. Were they to design a very robust printer the cost would probably be very high. I bought my z3200 for so little after the rebates. Considering the cost of the ink supplied with the printer they had to be loosing money on it or close to it.
I do understand what you write though about the service making the same repair over and over again - thats just stupid and probably they could really improve their margins by spending some time figuring out the common problems and training their service staff to a higher level.
But I just can't see any of these printers being trouble free. None that I have have been perfect. The epsons the worst and my HP's (z3200, b9180) the best so far.
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Probably there are going to be issues with every printer out there. The design paradigm is to make money on the ink not the printer. Were they to design a very robust printer the cost would probably be very high. I bought my z3200 for so little after the rebates. Considering the cost of the ink supplied with the printer they had to be loosing money on it or close to it.
I do understand what you write though about the service making the same repair over and over again - thats just stupid and probably they could really improve their margins by spending some time figuring out the common problems and training their service staff to a higher level.
But I just can't see any of these printers being trouble free. None that I have have been perfect. The epsons the worst and my HP's (z3200, b9180) the best so far.
I had three Z3100s, none had any problems except the first one with a NEDD/optical sensor that died . I think there was one cartridge that showed empty but was new, HP replaced it quickly, without hassle.
I had 2 9180s, the first one died after being in storage for 6-8 months. It never worked again. The other worked perfectly until I sold it preferring the overall quality of BW on the 3100/3200.
The 9180, 8850 are at the end of life in more than one way. Estimated life was 4 years if I remember right. Many problems with those models riddled the user satisfaction to the point where it's a good thing they were quietly discontinued.
The 3200 has had feed problems since new, a broken cutter, other various problems. It is paradoxical in that this printer was loaned to me for testing and reporting, for making a positive report and review. That created an impasse as although seldom used each and every time used I feared the 81:01 paper jam was going to waste yet another sheet. Not so bad when you're printing on A4 or junk paper for tests, but if you fear an A2 or A1 Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta getting wasted, you'd have reason to do so.
Tech support said I should contact customer relations and ask for a gracious repair offer considering the history of the printer.
I might but begging for something that most certainly should be covered by warranty and should have been duly repaired is nonesense.
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Just my 2 cents. I bought one of the first z3100 44" machines and had immediate multiple problems. HP sent a tech the next day each time I had a problem, and after the third visit, HP sent a new printer (their idea), along with TWO full sets of inks and a set of heads, for my trouble. Since then the only problem I've had was a defective POS, which was replaced the next day. I have been impressed with the speed of HP service, and with the rapid replacement without being asked.
It sounds like perhaps HP has widely varying quality of service depending on locality (I'm in southeastern Pa.)
David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
David V. Ward Fine Art Photography
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Another 2 cent opinion-
I've owned a 24" Z3100 for about three and a half years. I've loved the output quality, when everything works right. Black & white prints have been wonderful, with the deepest D-max you can get on either matte/cotton rag paper or glossier paper. Saturated red/orange colors are a definite weak point, and no amount of profiling or fiddling will give you anything remotely approaching Epson reds. I presume the Z3200 is better in this regard. The built-in spectro was great, and worked like a charm for me. I really wish Canon and Epson included this feature as a standard; it was that good and easy to use.
But it's always been a delicate, fiddly, finicky printer. Loading sheet paper was always an exercise in frustration, typically taking four or five tries to get it to load properly. The roller & starwheel paper transport system tends to mar the surface of delicate papers, and is much less robust than Epson's vacuum system for heavy sheets. I repeatedly had problems with long panoramic prints, which would randomly develop obvious banding about 75% into a 72" pano. This seemed to go away when I started doing a head cleaning cycle before any expensive big print. Doing any high volume production printing generally meant having to take a break to clean off the accumulated matte black ink that collects under the printhead assembly, otherwise you get random black drops and smears on your (very expensive) 24x36" sheets. The inked print surface is insanely delicate, both matte and gloss. The slightest brush with a fingernail or the corner of another print badly scratches and burnishes it. And don't get me started on the driver/firmware update process. I did two major updates, each one harrier and buggier than the previous one. I finally decided to keep a firmware/driver setup that worked, rather than chancing more chaos and downtime.
My experience with HP service has been mixed. About 4 months after getting the printer, the optical paper sensor died, rendering the printer unusable. Two HP technicians showed up two days after I called, and after a one day delay replaced the sensor assembly under warranty. After the second driver update Photoshop kept crashing, so I called HP tech support. They patiently spent an hour talking me through manual removal of all the older driver bits and reinstalling. This worked, but why was the software so absurdly buggy in the first place?
I gritted my teeth and bought the 2 year extended warranty because of my experience with the optical sensor failure. Go figure, I had not another significant problem (other than the paper transport woes and need for repetitive messy cleaning of the printhead carriage assembly). Two weeks ago an HP rep called my home to point out that my extended warranty was about to expire, did I want to buy another? Seeing as how this costs $1,383.99, I decided to pass on it. Of course, the printer then failed catastrophically a couple of days ago, about 10 days after the warranty ended. I wonder, do they program it to fail if you pass on the very expensive extended warranty? Just joking.
But I can tell you my next printer won't be an HP.
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Neil,
I am terribly sorry to read of your HP service woes. Because of your reviews and posts, I purchased an HP DJ130 some time back and had you profile it for black and white printing. You have been extremely helpful to me and many others learning about printing. I was very tempted to buy the Z3200 due in part to your posts and my history with HP. I did become concerned when I read of the discontinuation of the consumer grade HP printers and lack of continued production for certain papers. Thus, when I bought my new large format printer, I went with a Canon IPF8300 and could not be happier at the moment. It is a shame that HP has dropped the ball so badly. In many ways, they were poised to grab market share with the built in profiling, fabulous black and white quality, and user replaceable heads that separated HP from Epson's offerings. Now that Canon has entered the fray with quality offerings, it is less clear whether HP could have continued to grab a lot of market share, but it is sad to me to see them seeming to abandon their commitment to quality in this area. I am shocked they are treating you, of all people, this way. While I suspect that their marketing folks would accommodate you to the extent needed given your history with them, you should not have to go that route to get a functioning machine.
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Another 2 cent opinion-
I've owned a 24" Z3100 for about three and a half years. I've loved the output quality, when everything works right. Black & white prints have been wonderful, with the deepest D-max you can get on either matte/cotton rag paper or glossier paper. Saturated red/orange colors are a definite weak point, and no amount of profiling or fiddling will give you anything remotely approaching Epson reds. I presume the Z3200 is better in this regard. The built-in spectro was great, and worked like a charm for me. I really wish Canon and Epson included this feature as a standard; it was that good and easy to use.
But it's always been a delicate, fiddly, finicky printer. Loading sheet paper was always an exercise in frustration, typically taking four or five tries to get it to load properly. The roller & starwheel paper transport system tends to mar the surface of delicate papers, and is much less robust than Epson's vacuum system for heavy sheets. I repeatedly had problems with long panoramic prints, which would randomly develop obvious banding about 75% into a 72" pano. This seemed to go away when I started doing a head cleaning cycle before any expensive big print. Doing any high volume production printing generally meant having to take a break to clean off the accumulated matte black ink that collects under the printhead assembly, otherwise you get random black drops and smears on your (very expensive) 24x36" sheets. The inked print surface is insanely delicate, both matte and gloss. The slightest brush with a fingernail or the corner of another print badly scratches and burnishes it. And don't get me started on the driver/firmware update process. I did two major updates, each one harrier and buggier than the previous one. I finally decided to keep a firmware/driver setup that worked, rather than chancing more chaos and downtime.
My experience with HP service has been mixed. About 4 months after getting the printer, the optical paper sensor died, rendering the printer unusable. Two HP technicians showed up two days after I called, and after a one day delay replaced the sensor assembly under warranty. After the second driver update Photoshop kept crashing, so I called HP tech support. They patiently spent an hour talking me through manual removal of all the older driver bits and reinstalling. This worked, but why was the software so absurdly buggy in the first place?
I gritted my teeth and bought the 2 year extended warranty because of my experience with the optical sensor failure. Go figure, I had not another significant problem (other than the paper transport woes and need for repetitive messy cleaning of the printhead carriage assembly). Two weeks ago an HP rep called my home to point out that my extended warranty was about to expire, did I want to buy another? Seeing as how this costs $1,383.99, I decided to pass on it. Of course, the printer then failed catastrophically a couple of days ago, about 10 days after the warranty ended. I wonder, do they program it to fail if you pass on the very expensive extended warranty? Just joking.
But I can tell you my next printer won't be an HP.
When I bought my Z3100, my initial problem was something really stupid, out of my control, and caused me great inconvenience. During the installation of the hp-branded eye-one, the supplied serial number failed, rendering installation of the software impossible. It took a significant amount of effort and time to get the issue resolved. Other than that, I've had one printhead go bad, and that was replaced in two days.
But trying to get information from HP tech support to do basic things, is like trying to pull teeth. Trying to find information or tips on their web site - is a joke. And getting through their annoying phone system requires much patience.
If I had the opportunity to extend the warranty for two or three years for $1500 Canadian - I might consider it. When I bought the printer, I never considered paying a $50 a month "protection" fee because HP's reputation for producing good quality printers preceded them.
But I too, got a fantastic price on the 44" GP Photo model with built-in Advanced Profiling Solution. I think it was half the regular price? Less than $4000 anyways.
HP Tech support aside, this printer was/is pretty darn impressive.
Before investing in a large format printer, I was using the cheap consumer inkjet printers from Epson. Ink was expensive, and I went through printers like a kid eats candy. I had nothing but problems with print head clogs that ate ink to get working, or failure of the printhead from infrequent use.
So, all in all, I'm like a happy little pig rolling in excrement. While I occasionally have stupid little problems (most frequently with paper sizes), I continue to produce incredible prints.
Unfortunately, I have been plagued with scratches on prints and have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out where it's occuring. Now I understand. Everyone is plagued with scratches if the print is not very carefully handled. Though I had read about such problems, I never encounted the types attributed to the star wheels or rollers in the printer. My prints would come out looking gorgeous, and after some (i guess) careless handling, I would be dismayed to see fine scratches and dents.
Anyways, I'm excited where technology has been heading in printers and digital cameras. The money I spent on this large format printer, has been probably the best money I ever spent, regardless of problems or potential problems. The money has been well spent - I have learned many new things - and I am able to produce at a quality I consider more than good enough.
If this printer ever packs it in, I would have no problem considering another HP.
But things can change. Just today it was announced that HP is shedding itself of another 6,000 employees.
Something has to suffer as a result.
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I've probably only printed 200 sheets of 17x22 and 3 rolls of 24inch by 50ft paper in my z3200 but I haven't had any problems at all. I did have a problem with a b9180 but it was replaced under warrantee. Both printers make excellent prints. I've been quite happy with the HP printers. The epsons they replaced (4000 and 7600) never truely failed either but I had so many clogs and jams and other feed issues (particularly with the 4000) and just sheer wastage of paper, ink and my time that it makes the HPs just look perfect. Heck I'm still on my starting inks in most of the cartridges, and the epsons would have used all theirs up in cleaning by now.
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I'm just a beginner so a grain of salt is appropriate;
In contacting HP on at least 1 dozen occasions,
I've been given poor phone support,
and stellar phone support.
I had a tech come out here and expertly refit the new starwheel assy and pinch rollers while fielding several questions whose answers helped me.
The next tech came out and replaced my formatter in less than an hour.
The next tech opened the replacement part I had replaced under warranty before he came out and wasted a trip and most of my day to see if it was correct, (it wasn't)
I now have for the first time in over a year had some difficulty in being a priority to someone in HP's up till now impeccable customer service experience.
I have read how some folks have had a hard time from the beginning,
and just don't get it.
I have always been treated more than fairly,
and just wish someone would call me back as they said they would,
I would lose the contract if I ever treated a client thusly.
Maybe they do what they can to a degree, and then when we fit into a "OTHER"
category when calling for support,
they fail to deliver depending on the acuity of the technician you receive.
Well, I know you guys are pros and know how to deal with phone support,
but I'm telling you being absolutely polite is a requirement for any measure of support at all from HP.
They'll put you on a list of jerks I think,
because there are generally at least a few gripes per month regarding HP and what seems like pretty straightforward service modalities
They offer a thousand dollar repair we get pissed,
they offer a less than perfect solution, we get pissed,
they must be very adept at throwing any of us to the lions,
there are millions of pissed HP users if you think of it.
It's the "OTHER" category that I think gives z series users the biggest obstacle to stellar service.
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I'm just a beginner so a grain of salt is appropriate;
They'll put you on a list of jerks I think,
because there are generally at least a few gripes per month regarding HP and what seems like pretty straightforward service modalities
They offer a thousand dollar repair we get pissed,
they offer a less than perfect solution, we get pissed,
they must be very adept at throwing any of us to the lions,
there a millions of pissed HP users if you think of it.
It's the "OTHER" category that I think gives z series users the biggest obstacle to stellar service.
I treat all tech support people as individuals, and treat others as I would have them treat me.
I really don't think there is any conspiracy, nor list.
As stated , and I always call a spade a spade, the phone support has always been right on, polite, efficient.
I treat the service people in the same regard.
Yet there is a reality check when , after five calls for the same damn problem there is a question of competence.
There is also a question of a users patience, time and money on faulty products. If the said products are not honored, nor repaired in a timely manner, the results are against HP's policy, and brand in general.
It is a company that has only one thing in mind, and that thing is a short term project in the eyes of photographers. The doors opened with a squeaky hinge, but the window was in reality a one way mirror. It seems like the window now has returned to being a mirror, all have left the building, and the door fell off.
Sad , as the potential was right there.
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... The doors opened with a squeaky hinge, but the window was in reality a one way mirror. It seems like the window now has returned to being a mirror, all have left the building, and the door fell off.
Sad , as the potential was right there.
This is the biggest story of the day in my mind. (and the cleverest writing I've seen in a while)
Have they abandoned development of a fine art and photography printer?
I know even you commented how the b&w prints you were getting were phenomenal.
There is going to be an even better printer,
will it for sure not be HP?
I'm absolutely committed to getting a 9880 when the price/condition on one meets my needs.
But when new I'd absolutely consider a next generation Z The 5100 doesn't necessarily appeal,
so, waiting for new as the 9900 seems a little $$ for a # of problems the 5100 is OK,
and getting a canon seems like an option I haven't considered enough.
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This is the biggest story of the day in my mind. (and the cleverest writing I've seen in a while)
Have they abandoned development of a fine art and photography printer?
I know even you commented how the b&w prints you were getting were phenomenal.
There is going to be an even better printer,
will it for sure not be HP?
I'm absolutely committed to getting a 9880 when the price/condition on one meets my needs.
But when new I'd absolutely consider a next generation Z The 5100 doesn't necessarily appeal,
so, waiting for new as the 9900 seems a little $$ for a # of problems the 5100 is OK,
and getting a canon seems like an option I haven't considered enough.
If only we could design our own 'hermaphrodite' large format printer with the best features from each manufacturer. I'd love a printer with the bulletproof build quality of the Epsons, but without the repeated clogs and ink wastage. I'd love the built-in spectro and profiling of the HP, without the lousy paper handling, the flakey driver and the ink overspray. I'd love the speed and ink economy of the Canon, but with better 3rd party support and a straight-through paper path.
Sigh.
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Well this can’t be good news either....
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201006...DLETopHeadlines (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100601-704903.html?mod=WSJ_earnings_MIDDLETopHeadlines)
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This is the biggest story of the day in my mind. (and the cleverest writing I've seen in a while)
Have they abandoned development of a fine art and photography printer?
I know even you commented how the b&w prints you were getting were phenomenal.
There is going to be an even better printer,
will it for sure not be HP?
I'm absolutely committed to getting a 9880 when the price/condition on one meets my needs.
But when new I'd absolutely consider a next generation Z The 5100 doesn't necessarily appeal,
so, waiting for new as the 9900 seems a little $$ for a # of problems the 5100 is OK,
and getting a canon seems like an option I haven't considered enough.
The overall IQ of the Z 3200 is very good. Lots of gamut, excellent BW. The biggest problem and a big one is the highly glossy grey inks. To overcome that they made the GE but it has it's own peculiarities. Unfortunately GE doesn't fix the gloss differential on any Baryta papers, as the underlaying inks still exhibit way too much haze, and gloss diff.
IQ wins out on the Epson 9900. I haven't played with the recent Canon, but do hear very good things.
Not sure what will be out at Photokina. It would be nice to see a 17" 10 ink Epson.
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The answer from Tech support was oh , we only guarantee the repairs for 3 months. You're out of luck.
My answer is incompetent repair people, lousy build quality, lack of honouring guarantees, lack of follow up, generally a buy an extended support program type of deal for which I know why*
If you have all the case file numbers you should argue your point that the repair never worked in the first place. I've had a really good experience with my 44" Z3100GP. The built in spectro and self calibration have really worked well with my printing patterns.
Of course, I got mine during the fantastic discount period ($2995!) and I went without any extended warranty. Had to replace a print head right after the warranty gave up but it was cheap and worked like a charm. I should have called when it was under warranty as the warning did pop up intermittently but that was my fault I guess.
Only used HP support twice. Once for the bad Mac serial numbers on the i1, which this forum was a great reference to give to the tech.
Second was to replace the star wheels and pinch rollers, just in case. The media scratching did show up but usually on very curled media. Counter curling helped a bit. The tech who came by was really nice, knew enough about the printers to do the job and really sounded positive about the support aspect to me.
I guess HP service in Western Canada is better than France. I got the tech's card and was encouraged to call him directly in case anything about the fix wasn't working so they would extend the case file if need be.
Whenever I read the horror stories of expired warranties and failures of the Z-series I always worry about my out of warranty printer. But other than it needing to be hard shut off every now and then (months of constant on without any print jobs), it has been near flawless for me.
Annoyances are the buggy firmware (although the latest has been OK), calibration nags, and hard to align sheets, but everything else has been great for me. I really should take better care of it (check for dust and ink overspray) but it just lumbers on without complaint. My previous printers were Epsons, which were clog monsters so if I decide to upgrade it would be HP if they offer the same kind of deal or Canon.
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Well this can’t be good news either....
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201006...DLETopHeadlines (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100601-704903.html?mod=WSJ_earnings_MIDDLETopHeadlines)
Those cuts are in IT services. I think HP wants to go with a more automated model.
According to this link, HP printing division looks pretty healthy:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=avBBjK7SC0FA (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=avBBjK7SC0FA)
Of course, there's no mention of how the photo printers are doing relative to the rest of the printing division, or how well it is doing with respect to Canon and Epson printers. Hopefully the B series and Z series photo printers get an upgrade and much needed fixes. Would be a shame to see them retreating from this market.
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Those cuts are in IT services. I think HP wants to go with a more automated model.
According to this link, HP printing division looks pretty healthy:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=avBBjK7SC0FA (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=avBBjK7SC0FA)
Of course, there's no mention of how the photo printers are doing relative to the rest of the printing division, or how well it is doing with respect to Canon and Epson printers. Hopefully the B series and Z series photo printers get an upgrade and much needed fixes. Would be a shame to see them retreating from this market.
Retreating by omission or by just a huge drive towards the high speed printing market is yet to be seen.
The so called upgrade to a 3200 was not a feature packed upgrade , certainly not a new model. It fixed the problems of the first ones.
The 9180 8850 are simply discontinued. Nothing has been on the photo front since some years ago. Epson and Canon advance. Where does that leave HP in the photo market?
A full featured aspirated bed LFP with media feed over 1.5mm and a new grey ink such as Canon , faster, more robust would be the only way to stay in the game. Otherwise it will be the ticket out.
PS. HP had the last two service calls on record. The others according to the telephone support are not in the list. I have them written down somewhere. They suggested that I put together all I could and ask customer service for a gracious repair.
I might. It's just beyond my patience as I have that throw the thing out the window or beat it to a pulp feeling. I wouldn't do either, as when it is printing normally it is fine, just the intermittent waste of a sheet and restart comes up making it an unreliable printer. Warranty should have taken care of it, but didn't. I didn't use it after the repairs, months in fact as I use the Epson 9900 at my disposition. I saved the prints for a long time when it was capricious, but just didn't want to go through this again. The number of problems with the 9180/8850 that happened , the problems with the Dream Color monitors QA, the problems with this printer, the problems with incompetence in the tech support, all tell me that HP and the photo market makes for an embarrassing series of mistakes that customers have to be aware of before entering.
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Retreating by omission or by just a huge drive towards the high speed printing market is yet to be seen.
The so called upgrade to a 3200 was not a feature packed upgrade , certainly not a new model. It fixed the problems of the first ones.
That's sort of my impression. The Z3100 had so much unrealized promise when it was released; the built-in spectro and automated profile generation was just a brilliant idea, and worked great for me. Black & white printing was terrific. And the upgradable firmware seemed to indicate a commitment on HP's part to continuing improvement. But that's not what happened. The Z3200 was an underwhelming upgrade that fixed some of the Z3100's problems, but it still failed to address the paper handling shortcomings and lack of robustness of the basic design.
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Between this and stories I'm hearing about Epson/Decision One service, Canon is starting to look really good right now.
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I never had any trouble with my Z other than poor handling of 8.5x11 inch media. I never had any trouble with 11x14 and up. It always loads the first time. Roll media, which is all I use really works great.
But I totally agree. Canon is the company to watch and I'm very curious to hear how these latest offerings from them hold up. I think they are built like a tank and fast as hell. I really want to see a black and white print from the new ones on fiber gloss. The earlier versions didn't have the gamut or the dither to go straight at Epson. I think this new one may very well have that dither, and better gloss smoothness apparently. Want to see a few prints though. What is really amazing is how they are keeping their price down so low for the 44" model to go directly at HP at the same time and they are surpassing Epson longevity. Of course none of these printers are selling well. The economy continues to suck globally. It is a very rough time to invest in spectacular R&D and be innovative.
john
Between this and stories I'm hearing about Epson/Decision One service, Canon is starting to look really good right now.
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Somehow, I'm guessing that HP's money would have been better spent sorting out Neil's problems, rather than see an early evangelist for the HP fine art platform turn publicly against them. The profit from a printer or two (or more accurately, from ink sales for another one or two printer sales) could have averted a significant amount of bad PR. Postings on LL have a pretty high ranking on search engines that eclipse the normal readership of these forums. Someone doing research on a new wide format fine art printer would be quite likely to stumble across this post.
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Postings on LL have a pretty high ranking on search engines that eclipse the normal readership of these forums. Someone doing research on a new wide format fine art printer would be quite likely to stumble across this post.
They're also likely to stumble across virtually identical threads bemoaning the lousy service of every other manufacturer. With all due respect to the OP, these threads are a dime a dozen and do little to raise overall consciousness. Although they probably help the OP feel better.
For what it's worth, my experience of HP service (in the UK) has been fantastic.
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I suspect Neil's reputation is such as to raise this thread well beyond the "dime a dozen" variety. You may not know that Neil has been an outstanding source of information for years on wide format printing on a number of different message boards and blog groups as well as having many reviews of papers and printers over the years. This is very much a niche market and when someone of Neil's stature publicly states his disgust with support from a brand with which he has been associated for years, I suspect its impact will be noticed. There simply are not that many good objective sources of information out there on wide format printers for the fine art market and Neil's voice has long been one of them.
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There's no question about Neil's stature in the online LFP world. My point is that individual experiences of customer support vary so widely that personal accounts of poor service here or there signify little. Neil's experience of what he describes as lousy support doesn't change the fact that I've had nothing but stellar support from HP for the same machine. And likewise, my experiences don't change his. Unfortunately, it's the gripes and grousing that make it onto the discussion boards, and hang around for years exerting an influence far beyond their true significance.
The way I see it, customer support is people doing their jobs - sometimes, like everyone, they screw up. Perhaps, if I were Neil, and my attention was not engaged elsewhere, I would have got serious and put my foot down long before the fifth unsuccessful repair. Clearly there was a major fault with the machine and it needed to be replaced.
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I have to agree with that. There is lousy support from all of these giant corporations. But the fact that they are giant corporations allow us to buy a 44" printer ( in HP's case) with an on board Eye One spectro, one that calibrates,profiles, aligns, and maintains nozzles automatically without wasting ink, with a spectacular permanence and clean black and white for a little over $4,000.00 US , and use it for 3 or 4 years of good use. From what I can see there is far more complaint on all of these lists about the Epson 7900/9900s clogging and banding issues that there ever was about Hp support issues. However, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. They do, with all of these companies and the huge size of an outfit like HP worries me too and always has. Half the the time the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing and they even frustrate themselves which is kind of odd to watch in their phone conversations to each other.
In the end though it seems to me that the company that can build a really solid printer that doesn't NEED much support is the company that is going to eventually sell a lot of ink. And, that is the key for their survival, selling ink. I'm thinking THAT company may end up being Canon. Time will tell. They certainly did it with cameras.
john
There's no question about Neil's stature in the online LFP world. My point is that individual experiences of customer support vary so widely that personal accounts of poor service here or there signify little. Neil's experience of what he describes as lousy support doesn't change the fact that I've had nothing but stellar support from HP for the same machine. And likewise, my experiences don't change his. Unfortunately, it's the gripes and grousing that make it onto the discussion boards, and hang around for years exerting an influence far beyond their true significance.
The way I see it, customer support is people doing their jobs - sometimes, like everyone, they screw up. Perhaps, if I were Neil, and my attention was not engaged elsewhere, I would have got serious and put my foot down long before the fifth unsuccessful repair. Clearly there was a major fault with the machine and it needed to be replaced.
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the Z3100's problems, but it still failed to address the paper handling shortcomings and lack of robustness of the basic design.
Nothing is perfect, but in the word of wide format photo printers, the z3100 comes pretty close for me. I've never experienced any shortcoming with paper handling. My z handles 44" canvas and 8 inch wide sheets with ease. The design has been far more robust than any printer I've used. Three years of printing without a serious problem and not even one clog. That last part still pleasantly blows my mind! I think I've only had to replace one printhead. Certainly has paid for itself many times over, but equally important, all that time, stress and frustration and ruined prints wasted on Epson clogs is time, ink and material I have reclaimed. Hard to put a price on that, but definitely more than the price of the printer. YMMV
As for the layoffs in HP, sorry for the folks losing their jobs, but I have definitely spoken to some useless folk while working through support. The layoffs are good news from the customer's standpoint if they are getting some of the clowns and bloat out of the way. In my experience, the problem with HP support was getting through to the right person who actually had a clue. Once you find that person, you better write down a direct name and number to that person or dept., because you will likely never find them again if you just call the support number.