Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: CBarrett on May 27, 2010, 11:16:29 am
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There's an app for the iPad called Air Display (http://avatron.com/apps/air-display/) that expands the desktop of your Mac (connecting through a WiFi {or AdHoc} network). I put my new toy to good use as the image viewer for C1 Pro. It doesn't work as fast or as effortlessly as I might like, but you gotta admit, this is just friggin cool!
-CB
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I really wanted to wait until this weekend to redo this video with higher production quality, but seeings how this beats me to it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10NE0QxWT0U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10NE0QxWT0U)
I'll fill in some details this weekend. However, my strong recommendation is AGAINST the program Air Display and to an alternative using a difference VNC solution.
The flexibility that C1 offers to customize the interface and use two viewers at the same time makes this one of the most powerful ideas I've seen in a long time. It requires some refinement (the link below was preliminary and will be redone with more detail and production value this weekend).
I've already done all the work to tell ya'll how to do this. Just need to write it up and right now im busy!
Suffice it to say that when chris says "its not fast or efficient" ... after reading my article the similar-but-different solution we've researched IS fast (almost instant), it IS efficient, and its enormously flexible and powerful.
Like I said details this weekend. Hope you don't mind a few days wait :-).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Indeed cool - looking fwd to my Pad - due any day.
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Leave it to Doug to come up with the Right way to do this...
LoL
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Leave it to Doug to come up with the Right way to do this...
;-).
You're on my s@#% list for beating me to it though :-P.
Just kidding of course.
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Wow. Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly? Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.
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Wow. Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly? Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.
Yeah, there will definitly be a growth period and refinement.
Phase One will be offering it's own iPad app soon enough. I just don't like waiting and this is also a fundamentally different concept with it's own advantages and disadvantages :-).
Though I would caution that the concept is already significantly more refined than that test video shows. I beg some patience in this regard.
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Wow. Who expected a game changing integration of the iPad into photo shoots this quickly? Nice, and obviously still in it's infancy with room to grow.
There is DSLR remote for Canons and Nikons that work much in this same way though an Ad-hoc system.
I've tried these things before, even back to the days of sending a wireless NTSC signal from a desktop to a hand held ICan Monitor and like all move around wireless, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but most are just a gimmick under fast pace production, unless you dedicate one single person to do nothing but tech the viewing devices.
This Ipad thing "may" be different in it's use, but at least it's a way to see a phase file on a good lcd, though I wouldn't really like clients screwing around with color and exposure, but that's just me, maybe other photographers would think that's fine.
When these hand held devices do work, everyone is kind stoked for the first 30 minutes, then they are back to the tethering stations and the portable monitors are just sitting on a table burning through batteries, or worse someone yells out hey can you go back that that other shot you know the one with the hair behind her head and let me see that?
In other words a lot of this stuff is more distracting than useful IMO and more for a client than a photographer. The photographer needs to see the shot as they are working and would be more photographer useful if Phase would just glue it on the back of their Pee systems.
Actually, I'd love to see it get back to the days where the A.D. actually looked at the set, rather than the screen, because there is inspiration on the set, reviewing everything on the screen is usually just damage control to make sure you have "that" shot, safe, but not very inspirational.
It's more a democratization of the shoot and in my view detaches the creatives from the set and if one of these devices ever gets out in the crowd, you'll never get anything shot, it will just be a million voices willing to give "suggestions".
Now the one use I can see for this is to build a bracket and mount it to the tripod leg, that way the photographer doesn't have to run over to the monitor to see the lighting set up.
Now if you really want to open up a world of hurt, shoot a job long distance. We did a gig last year where the C.D. could not travel, so we set up with a company that gave her a live view on her computer of the images as we shot. It took about 10,000 cell phone calls with stuff like, "can you move that prop to the left and can you get the model in the blue shirt to smile more. At first it seemed somewhat useful and "safe", but then you'd make the changes, call the C.D. and she's in a meeting, or on another phone call, so the crew sits, the rhythm is broken and then you get back to work.
What would have been an easy day, turned into 12 hours and a lot of opportunities were missed.
Photography is now a collaborative process, but not necessarily democratic, not if your going to produce anything interesting.
Once again, IMO.
BC
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It's a much better solution than having to let the client/a.d. view the image on the camera's lcd or a tethered laptop. I would much prefer not to be slowed down by someone looking over my shoulder.
The best option, if possible, would be to have an automatic process that would copy each raw file to a seperate directory that the ipad can access and display. this way the client/a.d. would be able to shuffle back and fourth independently. For high volume shooters, this might not work since the ipad can only have 64GB of storage. Maybe there is a way to access a directory remotely on a macbook from the ipad ??
just thinking out loud.
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It's a much better solution than having to let the client/a.d. view the image on the camera's lcd or a tethered laptop. I would much prefer not to be slowed down by someone looking over my shoulder.
The best option, if possible, would be to have an automatic process that would copy each raw file to a seperate directory that the ipad can access and display. this way the client/a.d. would be able to shuffle back and fourth independently. For high volume shooters, this might not work since the ipad can only have 64GB of storage. Maybe there is a way to access a directory remotely on a macbook from the ipad ??
just thinking out loud.
All part of what I'll be writing about. This is one of the best features of the iPhone App Leaf wrote for Leaf Capture and is sure to be part of the solution Phase One releases. Until then though...
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just thinking out loud.
I've tried most ways of viewing, seen them all from Icon L.A's digital trailer to tech stations with multiple technicians etherneted to multiple computers where one person techs the actual shoot the other edits and process with a client.
I've seen and tried hand held devices, showing the back of cameras, usually tether multiple monitors and though it's safe, I've never seen it improve the photography.
In fact one of the fastest and most creative projects I've done was with a good A.D. that did not want to tether, other than a few frames once we were set, so we'd set up, shoot, get it to where it can be shown (kind of like in the days of polaroid, except think 30" polaroid), then unplug and shoot to cards.
The A.D. had faith in himself to see what was happening on the set, he had faith in us to expand the project to more than the original creative brief and didn't want a thousand voices involved.
It's rare, but it can happen.
I can see where this device can be useful but it should never get out of the hands of the A.D. (a good A.D. that you work closely with and probably should come with handcuffs), but since all of these systems run from camera to computer to hand held device, it's another level of complexity, another screen in the room and for some reason digital invites comments like film never did. Maybe because they are seeing the actual shot, or what they think will be the actual shot, though as we all know after editing and post production what we deliver looks a lot different that what we are shooting..
I use to have this love hate thing with polaroid mainly because it was about as stable as Mel Gibson and was tiny on most medium format cameras, but my favorite way of proofing was to shoot that folding polaroid camera and fire of 4 or six images to be stitched (not photoshop stitched, but scotch tape stitched) so the client could see the "idea" of the shoot.
It's amazing to look back at that and remember how respectful everyone was of this process. Sure there would be comments, some constructive some not, but nobody was constantly directing from a TV screen. I don't believe in going back, I know the toothpaste is way out of the tube, and I know the tech geeks get a boner for this stuff, but just because we can do something doesn't mean we always should.
Can you imagine Avedon's West series shot today. Two 30" monitors a group of twenty holding I-pad's and saying "uh Dick, I've been looking at this guy with the snake and I think it would look really cool in color instead of black and white, maybe if the snake was real, real green and oh BTW: can you remove some of those tattoos and get the snake to look more aspirational?".
BC
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All part of what I'll be writing about. This is one of the best features of the iPhone App Leaf wrote for Leaf Capture and is sure to be part of the solution Phase One releases. Until then though...
Just a little teaser...at your nearest (app)store soon...
[attachment=22230:Screen_s...16.21.28.jpeg]
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Just a little teaser...at your nearest (app)store soon...
[attachment=22230:Screen_s...16.21.28.jpeg]
Not sure what use I would have for that - even if I could fit in it, red is really not my color.
edit: ohhhh, I see... Sorry, but already have a Harley.
edit2: ohhhhhhh... never mind, I'm gonna shut up now.
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Doug,
You are to be congratulated, or Phase, or Leaf, or someone.
For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.
My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.
I'm not saying you can snap your fingers and make this happen, but in this New Economy, there are more shots to do in a given day's time. The KEYWORD is ease of use, and portability, and speed. My ideal solution: A camera on a tripod with a photographer behind it, and then a cord coming out of the back, and that cord runs right into an Ipad, with a paying AD standing there holding the iPad. That solution makes sense to me.
When the George Whitfield system hits the market, it'll be called "Just Show Me The Damn Picture, and Let's Keep Moving".
I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it. If I already can't decide at which restaurant to eat at with Wife#1, why would I want to interject yet another Wife with a third opinion? Why? I know the answer is: "Well, it's because the Ipad is not powerful enough", but like StinkyCooter said somewhere else, "Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD".
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Doug,
You are to be congratulated, or Phase, or Leaf, or someone.
For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.
My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.
I'm not saying you can snap your fingers and make this happen, but in this New Economy, there are more shots to do in a given day's time. The KEYWORD is ease of use, and portability, and speed. My ideal solution: A camera on a tripod with a photographer behind it, and then a cord coming out of the back, and that cord runs right into an Ipad, with a paying AD standing there holding the iPad. That solution makes sense to me.
When the George Whitfield system hits the market, it'll be called "Just Show Me The Damn Picture, and Let's Keep Moving".
I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it. If I already can't decide at which restaurant to eat at with Wife#1, why would I want to interject yet another Wife with a third opinion? Why? I know the answer is: "Well, it's because the Ipad is not powerful enough", but like StinkyCooter said somewhere else, "Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD".
The iPad would be remotely operated and would give a photographer at least 5-10 feet of breathing room. You'd get everyones opinion, but at least they would be less likely to smear your laptop screen with their fingers.
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You'd get everyones opinion, but at least they would be less likely to smear your laptop screen with their fingers.
Now there is a real working photographer. You know the real deal. That was the password -- you're in. It's the door on your right.
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My ideal solution, for my type of location work: ELIMINATE the laptop altogether. Shoot to CF card, but let some kind of signal (and JPG) leave the Phase back, and be sent to the iPad, (since you can't see squat on the Phase LCD anyway). A system similar to the VIDEO OUT port of the 1ds3. We need smaller. We need Less stuff, not more stuff. Less cables. Less cords. Less adapters. Less things to be dropped on the ground.
I think there is not a single camera engineer in the world who disagrees.
Leaf's iPaq remote viewing system was about as close to this concept as has been created. I think it showed both how cool this can and will be (eventually) but also how there are a lot of challenges involved.
Honestly, I know this sounds biased, but I think that of all camera companies of all types of cameras that Phase One with it's resources and Leaf with it's past experience with both the iPaq viewer and the iPad application is probably the best bet to have a solution which is both powerful enough to help workfow and simple enough to actually use even during heavy shooting and without having to be (or hire) a nerd to use.
The solution I will detail that you can start using today may not be right for everyone. But for some shooters I think it will be a very big help to shooting.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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You guys will make me go and finally blow $$$ on apple stuff. Just figures, a couple months back I got an asus lappy, very nice and light fast long battery. It has no firewire but it has blue tooth. Is there any way to have a leaf back work with win7 bluetooth? Sounds like I need a mac pro, a macbook for tether, as that's what drives the ipad. So it requires that the back be tethered in order for the files to be available on the ipad. That would mean a mac book is first piece I need.
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I dunno guys. I feel like working off the laptop allows me to make better pictures. I get to see if the HDR sliders are gonna get me the window detail or just how much I need to bracket for post. I can see whether Color Editor can get rid of that green cast in the background or if I need to pull out gels and finally, looking at the image as large as possible allows me to more effectively analyze all the graphical interactions within the composition.
Shooting the old way with 4x5 Polaroid just made me miss all the shit that I catch now. I think this is all more relevant to my situation than, say a fashion shooter's and I have the advantage of generally having very few folks on set.
It's all relative, of course. Relatively speaking.
CB
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For me, ideally, I can't see how I'd use this. It's just another pigtail hanging off my camera. The Mother Duck (camera), followed by BabyDuck#1 (the laptop), followed by BabyDuck#2 (the Ipad). Just more stuff. More gadgets, to slow down the process. Then add a Honda generator, or 200 feet of extension cord, and we're working and moving at a snail's pace.
[...]
I just don't get why, if you're already dragging around a laptop or a 27" Imac, why you'd then want to hang an IPad off of THAT, and risk having one other dumbass speak up with yet another opinion. I just don't get it.
The iPad is a 100% wireless part of this system whether you are using AirDisplay (which I don't recommend - not fast or stable), the upcoming Phase One iPad App for C1 (not out yet), or our solution. If you aren't using it for a while you put it to sleep, and later in the shoot wake it up (it will auto reconnect) in about 3 seconds. That's different than something "hanging off your camera".
It can be viewed in a room down the hall, across the room, or right next to the photographer and can stay with the person who is using it. The interface can be display only (so the person can't make any adjustments), rate/browse only (so the person can rate the images and browse between images), or full C1 functionality including histogram, adjustments, rating, capture naming etc.
For your style of shooting the iPad would be set up Display Only and you could turn the display of the MacBookPro off or put a hood on it to discourage more than one viewer at a time. In this configuration it would simply be a larger, higher resolution of the back of the camera LCD except for a few second delay between shutter release and showing on the iPad, and the image will include any styling you've done in C1 (contrast, curves, vignette, color adjustments, highlight/shadow, tinting, lens correction, crop, overlay, clarity etc etc).
It can also be used as a easy editing tool. This is the mode the system is in when you view the youtube video. Big, easy-to-use buttons to move to the next image and rate it (green, yellow, red) with or without the ability to make adjustments to the images.
I'm not looking at this thread anymore until I'm able to post my article. Half-way explanations don't help anyone.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Doug,
Good job for trying on this.
Don't get me wrong for some people this will work. Especially if your on a crane and the A.D. is on the ground on the in the RV and wants to view the shot.
For me, this system is kind of backwards.
Now if a Phase back didn't require a tethered computer to get a preview and a phase back had a photographer friendly lcd amd the Ipad tethered or non tethered went straight to the camera, not the computer, then you have me. Where do I sign.
But if you gonna run a tech station, have a dozen people hanging out there, then introduce another device for viewing the same thing on the computer you lost me.
As far as photographers that shoot people needing to view the scene and lighting with intricacy, it's as heavy a load as anyone that shoots stuff that doesn't move, cause if I blow a window highlight, its a lot of work to blend that back to hair or fine garments, especially with the subject moving.
For you inanimate objects guys I know it's a tough biz, but fixing a highlight on a table usually isn't as expensive or consuming as blending hair and skin, plus your chairs don't charge you $1,000 an hour while you futz with lighting.
BC
I'm not looking at this thread anymore until I'm able to post my article. Half-way explanations don't help anyone.
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson ()
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It can be viewed in a room down the hall, across the room, or right next to the photographer and can stay with the person who is using it. The interface can be display only (so the person can't make any adjustments), rate/browse only (so the person can rate the images and browse between images), or full C1 functionality including histogram, adjustments, rating, capture naming etc.
For your style of shooting the iPad would be set up Display Only and you could turn the display of the MacBookPro off or put a hood on it to discourage more than one viewer at a time. In this configuration it would simply be a larger, higher resolution of the back of the camera LCD except for a few second delay between shutter release and showing on the iPad, and the image will include any styling you've done in C1 (contrast, curves, vignette, color adjustments, highlight/shadow, tinting, lens correction, crop, overlay, clarity etc etc).
It can also be used as a easy editing tool. This is the mode the system is in when you view the youtube video. Big, easy-to-use buttons to move to the next image and rate it (green, yellow, red) with or without the ability to make adjustments to the images.
Doug,
But the laptop or tower is already sitting there, and much more capable of doing all those things listed above. And if you don't mess with the Ipad, it's just one less thing to pay for, insure, and risk dropping.
What am I missing here? Until you eliminate the computer part of the equation, what have you really gained, other than some newfangled supposedly slick sexy device that the client might be impressed with, (for five minutes).
Not being contrary, but just being honest. I promise.
You lose the computer, and photographers will run through the streets in glee, breaking down your door to buy your product.
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Doug,
But the laptop or tower is already sitting there, and much more capable of doing all those things listed above. And if you don't mess with the Ipad, it's just one less thing to pay for, insure, and risk dropping.
What am I missing here? Until you eliminate the computer part of the equation, what have you really gained, other than some newfangled supposedly slick sexy device that the client might be impressed with, (for five minutes).
Not being contrary, but just being honest. I promise.
You lose the computer, and photographers will run through the streets in glee, breaking down your door to buy your product.
Stop the presses, gwhitf is immune to Steve Jobs' reality distortion field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHZzb42s3y4)!
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IMHO.
Apple is going to be the tomorrow's Microsoft.
And Microsoft will be obliged to be the tomorrow's Apple.
Many signs are saying it.
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My respect for Doug and Capture Integration is high. But this never-ending Trail Of Gadgets is surging out of control. Ipads and Laptops; three and four people craning their necks to see the tethered laptop in order to yell out an uninvited opinion; strobeheads controlled from laptops; where will it end.
My advice: Get up off your ass and walk over and turn up the power on that Profoto pack, BY HAND. Be a man.
It's to the point where you'll soon have to start having a line item on your Estimates for both a Digital Tech, and an I.T. Guy.
This is not what photography is about.
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I think that this topic, started with an aparently harmless news is indeed pointing some crucial and deep arguments.
This is all the task in itself that is questioned: Where is the limit.
I join completly the gwhitf and bcooter's voices. When all this will end? Wich more gadget involved, wich more complication in order to automatized more, but when the basic, I mean the really basic needs are not covered, and again peripherical solutions that will add more complications than will help.
In some cases? Fine. Why not, But...
The craftman driven by gear, more exactly, "obliged" to do it that way because there is no other good reason than the manufacturer.
It's the world backward, but we know I guess that this world is going backward and accelerating.
All that affects the act of photography in itself.
When I read a Michael Reichmann's article about the "whao" of the I.pad in the task itself, I just remembered that Karl Lagarfeld, when at the head of Chanel, went crazy with a photographer that could not understand according to him the philosophy of the last collection and ended taking the Pentax and doing the edito himself. Nice ambience...
That was in film age, I was in Paris, young...but when I saw the Ipad, I thought that this would have been THE Lagarfeld gadget.
All that mess and distractions are not desirable.
I'm not totally enthousiastic by the new Pentax, but I have to say that it could play another song. If others keep going adding more and more stuff and complications, even if they come with a nice intention, there will be proportionally more and more photographers that will buy the Pentax, for its
simplicity and low cost (that does not mean low IQ).
As it has been mentionned, looking more and being more involved into the action, as it should be.
Less is more.
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Most useful piece of studio gear I own is a wired Elinchrom remote. Twiddle, shoot, twiddle, shoot.
My advice: Get up off your ass and walk over and turn up the power on that Profoto pack, BY HAND. Be a man.
This is not what photography is about.
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I am close to bringing to market my own invention. The YouTube of it will be ready soon. It'll be software that'll let you connect an iPhone to an iPad, (which was first connected to the laptop). The trademark is not yet official, but I think I'm gonna call it "RussianNested", based on this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_ma...m_doll_open.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_matryoshka_museum_doll_open.jpg)
The goal is to see how many useless devices that you can string together before all of them stop working.
In my scenario, the Creative Director looks at the laptop, and then the Art Director looks at the iPad, and then the Account Executive back in the Home Office in Des Moines will be looking at his image on his iPhone, and then screaming his directions through the iphone that's connected to the iPad. While all those guy are arguing with each other, I'm going to go ahead and do the shot, so that we get the first Setup done before Sundown of the first day.
Version Two of my product: In the chain, the iPhone will be then connected to a GameBoy, down the line, so that the Makeup Artist's kid can have something to do, while the Makeup Artist watches the show on the computer, instead of looking at the Talent in real time.
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I am close to bringing to market my own invention. The YouTube of it will be ready soon. It'll be software that'll let you connect an iPhone to an iPad, (which was first connected to the laptop). The trademark is not yet official, but I think I'm gonna call it "RussianNested", based on this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_ma...m_doll_open.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_matryoshka_museum_doll_open.jpg)
The goal is to see how many useless devices that you can string together before all of them stop working.
In my scenario, the Creative Director looks at the laptop, and then the Art Director looks at the iPad, and then the Account Executive back in the Home Office in Des Moines will be looking at his image on his iPhone, and then screaming his directions through the iphone that's connected to the iPad. While all those guy are arguing with each other, I'm going to go ahead and do the shot, so that we get the first Setup done before Sundown of the first day.
Version Two of my product: In the chain, the iPhone will be then connected to a GameBoy, down the line, so that the Makeup Artist's kid can have something to do, while the Makeup Artist watches the show on the computer, instead of looking at the Talent in real time.
I almost drop my night tea on the monitor!
Thanks for this good laugh.
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I rarely chime in, but I just have to jump in on this one. First, (and some of you aren't going to like this) what kind of unprofessional sets are you on that everyone seems to chime in? The way you guys describe it the caterer and make-up assistant must be peeking at the screen and telling you a lower angle might be better. ;-). You might be the same guys that hate to teether at all because now people can see your images (mistakes). Are people still so insecure and whining about this? Really? It is true that on set from time to time there is an errant hair/MUP/Style/Prop/Assis/etc that is out of line and chimes in, but professionals know better ,and its rare from my experience. If any photographer cant see the merit of such tools then by all means don't buy them or as some of you say "drop them". It just sounds so short sighted and dinosaur like to be complaining about tools that may make your life better. Just put another roll of EPP or other outdated film in your (insert old MF camera here) and relax. What the Ipad can do or will do is nothing new. You could do it on your iphone via VNC 3 years ago. Heck you can use a laptop to do the same thing. The art director can sit in the motorhome and see the same image the same size on a calibrated monitor. The leaf solution (as Doug said) was/is pretty sweet and far ahead of its time. There are so many cool things about it. For one, many of the Ipaqs (viewing PDA's) had transflective screens. Transflective you ask? You could view it sunlight. Try that with a laptop or ipad or what not. It was like so many things in that it was not always the easiest to setup or use. Anyone who uses VNC or Screen-share knows its not always bulletproof depending on your network and other factors. I have no doubt it will be even closer to foolproof than it is today. I'm with those that suggest that skipping the computer and going to the ipad (ie leaf) would be amazing. Let us hope Phase uses their Leaf resources and does just that.
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Jeff,
I think that I can understand the reasons of your "hot" post, but I would like to express that in my opinion, and understanding your points perfectly,
that this is not the I.pad potential that is discussed, but the I.pad + the laptop or whatever tower configuration that it has been condamned and for some reasons.
We all agree that the I.pad is indeed a nice machine, BUT it depends if this is going to be a substitute, and in that case we can talk about an improovment (not for today),
OR...and that's the point, if it is going to be another more gadget on the chain. And in that case, I do not see where is the professionalism you are talking about if
you are going to complicate even more the chain.
I will end my answer saying that some of the members that you are targeting are among the very best professionals and respected as professionals.
I can not agree with them, and when it happens I express it, but I never put in doubt the professionalism of anybody without knowing in person.
Disagreement is one thing, free depreciation because it does not match ones p.o.v is another one, IMHO.
Regards.
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Anyone who uses VNC or Screen-share knows its not always bulletproof depending on your network and other factors.
I've never seen ANY wireless device which was bulletproof.
However if you follow our suggestions it's solid in my testing so far. I'll detail in the future but if you create a password protected ad-hoc network and turn off all non-essential network protocols and encoders (lots of words, but about 4 seconds of work on a mac) then 99% of your problems with VNC go away and the speed/responsiveness goes way up.
If the above is making you go "I don't want to deal with all that" then no biggie. Keep doing what you're doing.
Some photographers here consider tethering a godsend, some consider it a huge hassle, still others have never tried it. There's nothing wrong with any of those views. They just represent different shooting styles in different situations.
Completely reliable, fast, easy, and computer-free wireless previews will be the god-send that gwitf and bcooter (and others including myself and a huge % of photogrpahers) desire. Developing such a system would be a holy grail for any high end camera company. But such a system is at least a year away in my opinion. So if you're only going to be happy with wireless previews then you should probably ignore any threads about the semi-wireless solutions (tethered to a computer, wireless to a viewing device) that appear between now and then. They'll just remind you that what you want doesn't yet exist.
Doug Peterson ()
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Doug,
I think that what you are doing here and in Capture Integration is fantastic and I will never forget how many times your helps and knowledge have been and are indeed usefull.
I understand the excitment about the goal you are wiling to acheive with the I.pad.
I had a good laugh with the gwhitf russian joke and that was not at all against you but it describes so well what could be first a nice proposal transformed into something that could end in a nice hassle.
Completely reliable, fast, easy, and computer-free wireless previews, yes I would buy the idea but what about the laptop(sssssss) then?
Then we are exactly in the russian dolls configuration. And that is where my reserves are.
Let's wait and see. It is fair to say that this is worth seeing all the possible oportunities.
Maybe I do not realise at that point all the potential of the proposal.
Cheers.
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Oh my God. You guys are like a bunch of frightened villagers huddling around the Space Alien with your pitchforks!
Here is a great new bit of technology. If it can improve your process do it. If not... Fuhgidaboudit.
Move on and go make pictures.
CB
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IMHO.
Apple is going to be the tomorrow's Microsoft.
And Microsoft will be obliged to be the tomorrow's Apple.
Many signs are saying it.
Actually I think google is rapidly becoming the next Microsoft.
Additionally it also appears some postings here in this thread are displaying "internetitis", a condition where one can't accept the fact that there are multiple ways of doing things and just because someone likes to do it differently doesn't make you right and them wrong. Debating the usefulness of the iPad in a workflow at this stage of development is baffling to me. Seems like such a waste of time when no one really knows where the device or similar devices will evolve to. And to assume that just because you see no point in handing a device like this to an AD means no one should seems is a littte arrogant.
I do know some will find the device useful, as they look for innovative ways to use it. A friend has already found using the iPad as a presentation device while consulting with potential wedding customers has been very successful. That's simple to do. The device is extremely capable for it's size, who knows what is coming. Obviously shooting directly to the device wirelessly would be amazingly useful, but lacking that (for now) doesn't mean there aren't a myriad of ways to apply the device as a useful tool.
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Actually I think google is rapidly becoming the next Microsoft.
On that I also think you are 100% right.
Will have Googapples.
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Oh my God. You guys are like a bunch of frightened villagers huddling around the Space Alien with your pitchforks!
Here is a great new bit of technology. If it can improve your process do it. If not... Fuhgidaboudit.
Move on and go make pictures.
CB
Now, each time Aplle is lauching a new gadget, it is like the 21st century Allah's gift.
Whaos, Ahhhs, Ohhhhs...
New-age siren's sounds attractive indeed.
Is it really to make pictures or to make us buy even more useless stuff?
I do not have the answer honestly, maybe this will be excelent, maybe not and
each person will choose the best for him/her.
The only thing I know for sure, and as I get older; is exactly your claim: "less is more".
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Actually I think google is rapidly becoming the next Microsoft.
Additionally it also appears some postings here in this thread are displaying "internetitis", a condition where one can't accept the fact that there are multiple ways of doing things and just because someone likes to do it differently doesn't make you right and them wrong. Debating the usefulness of the iPad in a workflow at this stage of development is baffling to me. Seems like such a waste of time when no one really knows where the device or similar devices will evolve to. And to assume that just because you see no point in handing a device like this to an AD means no one should seems is a littte arrogant.
I do know some will find the device useful, as they look for innovative ways to use it. A friend has already found using the iPad as a presentation device while consulting with potential wedding customers has been very successful. That's simple to do. The device is extremely capable for it's size, who knows what is coming. Obviously shooting directly to the device wirelessly would be amazingly useful, but lacking that (for now) doesn't mean there aren't a myriad of ways to apply the device as a useful tool.
Wayne,
I think that it has been misunderstood. I do not see frankly any arrogance. Some members, me included, where not convinced by a proposal and we simply express it, and why.
But in any case I read that this should be the rule for everyone.
The reasons that where expressed are showing indeed some issues concerning this configuration and legitimaly some questions emerged.
But that does not mean that it is bad, that Ipad is not interesting and that some people can not find it amazingly useful. It simply means, in that configuration not everybody is convinced, and not
because we are tech frightened.
See, life is funy. Today precicely, I went to the studio of an international fashion photographer because I have some work with him. There are enough Macs in his studio to open an entire shop.
I think I saw every possible existing versions. 6 computers are running permanently 15 hours/day, while the retoucher is using 2 tower units. Well, this conversation emerged about a question I asked him
about tethered stuff and guess what, he told me exactly the same than bcooter and gwhift where first pionting in this thread.
Now, I have no doubt that the I.pad can and will be a great tool for many applications.
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Now, each time Aplle is lauching a new gadget, it is like the 21st century Allah's gift.
Whaos, Ahhhs, Ohhhhs...
New-age siren's sounds attractive indeed.
Is it really to make pictures or to make us buy even more useless stuff?
I do not have the answer honestly, maybe this will be excelent, maybe not and
each person will choose the best for him/her.
The only thing I know for sure, and as I get older; is exactly your claim: "less is more".
But us old guys aren't the market. Apple is masterful at marketing to the tech toy obsessed and they deliver a cool factor that Microsoft has never understood.
Less is more. But more is more profitable.
IMHO, iPad 2 will be a useful tool for photographers. But again Apple is brilliant in releasing a handicaped iPad now because developers worldwide will be doing all the work of figuring out new uses (markets) for it.
So keep it up Doug and all the rest of you. I'll sit back and wait till you've got it sorted. I'll buy the new iPad 2 when it has twice the memory, a faster processor, higher res screen with matt finish available and the necessary ports. In the mean time my 13" MPB works great by VNC.
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Just a little teaser...at your nearest (app)store soon...
[attachment=22230:Screen_s...16.21.28.jpeg]
This has probably already been mentioned... but if that Leaf App was able to act as a viewing app for leaf mos files using the bluetooth connection directly to the DB rather than through a tethered laptop network that would be huge for me. Strap or mount the iPad to the tripod and off you go. Great for location architecture shooting where tethering is a pain but a big view would be very useful.
Matt
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This has probably already been mentioned... but if that Leaf App was able to act as a viewing app for leaf mos files using the bluetooth connection directly to the DB rather than through a tethered laptop network that would be huge for me. Strap or mount the iPad to the tripod and off you go. Great for location architecture shooting where tethering is a pain but a big view would be very useful.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Yes that would have been cool and it has been discussed here and elsewhere in the past on more than one occasion:-)
The Bluetooth on the iPhone/ iPad is rather "primitive" and geared towards use of headsets and handsfree devices.
But the main thing is that the Mac does all the processing and that includes colour management, noise reduction, sharpening etc. which makes the viewing experience far, far better than what the digital back will ever be able to do, processing wise.
You can try it today: zoom into 100% on the Aptus and then do the same on the iPhone
Yair
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Oh my God. You guys are like a bunch of frightened villagers huddling around the Space Alien with your pitchforks!
Here is a great new bit of technology. If it can improve your process do it. If not... Fuhgidaboudit.
Move on and go make pictures.
CB
Man there are some touchy people here.
CB, if this gizmo works for you good, great, amazing, tremendous, but you dig geek stuff and personally I find a lot of it just gets in the way.
Now without a doubt I commend these small companies like Phase and Leaf trying to bring us more usability and it's a hell of a feat considering Canon's wi-fi is still a failure in progress.
I also appreciate Doug and Yair taking the shit they do and still pushing forward with answers. Me, I'd bolt from here so fast the screen door would still be flappin' in the wind as I saddled up.
In fact Yair and Doug both e-mailed me with offers to help. They're a hell of a lot nicer and smarter people than me.
Still, back to you comments, CB, you do something way different than a lot of other photographers do and until you pay that $1,000 an hour per chair or desk to sit there while you try to connect some gizmo I think it would be nice to recognize that all of us have different clients, pressures, and complexities in our specialties. To you a sick grip truck is a cute Mercedes SUV, to me it's a 20' box end, has a roll up back door and a harry armed guy named Big Jud to roll that stuff out.
As far as taking pictures, OK thanks, I think we all get that and maybe that's the point, because when we spend our studios' resources working out devices we could spend more time on the make a photo process.
Few of us are luddites, crap I have 10 Macs in our studios and a combined 24 raid 5 drives, so technology doesn't make me want to grab the pitchfork.
Silly ass comments do. (And this isn't only directed at you. I make a lot of silly ass comments myself).
I also have two I-pads on order though I doubt if I'll use them on set for any form of tethering, but I've been wrong before so we'll see.
BC
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I strongly believe the iPad will be a game changer.
I'm DYING to see the Leaf application on the iPad, I already loved it on the iPhone but on location on the iPad it will rock.
Otherwise indeed as second monitor is a great option.
Everything that can make our live easier and workflow faster is a good thing.
At the moment I use the iPad a lot for mails and surfing, gives me more time to do things I really like instead of being stuck at a workstation.
So we'll see what the future brings, but it will be fun and handy.
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I strongly believe the iPad will be a game changer.
I'm DYING to see the Leaf application on the iPad, I already loved it on the iPhone but on location on the iPad it will rock.
Otherwise indeed as second monitor is a great option.
Everything that can make our live easier and workflow faster is a good thing.
At the moment I use the iPad a lot for mails and surfing, gives me more time to do things I really like instead of being stuck at a workstation.
So we'll see what the future brings, but it will be fun and handy.
Frank you can already run version 1.0 on your iPad in X2 mode
Yair
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I think that the problem of photographic gear is very specific, specially since digital.
I do not know any professional activity that depends so much on unprofessional machinery involved on the chain in order to make the all circus
working (un)properly.
Go to see a Formula One Gran Prix, every single tool from a screwdriver to a computer is just made for doing what it's been built for with maximum
performance and reliability. They do not run Macs neither Pcs but Unix platforms. These guys are not kidding, there is no room for averageness. Things simply works, point.
The cine industry would not accept the hassle and compromises we are obliged to deal with in photography. It simply would not happen.
All the chain works to professional standart and has to.
As photography navigates between a big consumer industry and a small niche pro market, the tools are indeed reflecting this situation.
It makes its charm, it's romantic, but also it is the open door to many hassles.
In no other craft that I know, I've heard so much complains about the systems and the gears for a reason or another, in all possible languages.
Back to I.pad, it is first a fancy, promissing, cool consumer object (underpowered, and frankly, the shiny screen...) that can be included into a professional environment but with some compromises. It has never been built for the photographer. The laptops we are using are simple consumer computers that can be found in les Galleries Lafayette. Let's call it Mac, Pc, whatever.
They are all underpowered, and made to suit an average user that can be sometimes a photographer. They are cool and attractive until a blast of tethered 30MP raw files reveals the engine behind the mask.
Brands are talking advantage of these unperfections because we are tempted to buy gadgets, more softwares etc...
It is very interesting for them to leave us with unfinished or unperfect products. Then they can also sell the remedies.
I can't beleive that we are still talking about lcd, interface issues and usability with cameras. They know perfectly how to make perfect cameras but it just will not happen because it is not a market made for the pro, it is made for the consupro.
Cinema gear have no consumer market but just pro, and there is a big difference: Hassle free and cost.
So, wired situations are going to continue and MacGyver solutions are going to keep going exactly like yesterday.
On that comic play, the photographer will keep going asking: how could I solve this or that, spend half of his life in internet to find a solution while the only thing he/she really cares about (IMO) is the shooting and the artistic aspect.
Yes K.C, you are right: more is more profitable.
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Could be however, and I speak for myself here, the iPad is used for me to do mail, read, watch a movie when traveling etc. However in the future it will replace my home theater remote, it will be used for my photography but all just to make things easier, I think it Wil never take away from the core business and that is creating the image.
Or at least it should not, it's all just tools that you can use for what you need it for it should not be used I think as gadgets. Have a pile of those somewhere
@yaya,
Will test that soon.
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This would be an ideal use to help those of us in the field. Probably more of these users that would run to the bank for this application than as a second or third portable viewer inside a studio.
My 2cents. Eliminating the tether and a desktop is the dream.
Robb
This has probably already been mentioned... but if that Leaf App was able to act as a viewing app for leaf mos files using the bluetooth connection directly to the DB rather than through a tethered laptop network that would be huge for me. Strap or mount the iPad to the tripod and off you go. Great for location architecture shooting where tethering is a pain but a big view would be very useful.
Matt
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This would be an ideal use to help those of us in the field. Probably more of these users that would run to the bank for this application than as a second or third portable viewer inside a studio.
My 2cents. Eliminating the tether and a desktop is the dream.
Robb
Bluetooth was a big selling point (sorry, promise) of the P+ backs.
Edmund
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It would have to be tumbnails than, transporting files in the 75-100+ range over Bluetooth would mean that you can shoot two images and wait for a long time to see them.
Even with normal wifi I found shooting with the normal 5d in raw to be too slow to really work in a normal fashion setup.
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It would have to be tumbnails than, transporting files in the 75-100+ range over Bluetooth would mean that you can shoot two images and wait for a long time to see them.
Even with normal wifi I found shooting with the normal 5d in raw to be too slow to really work in a normal fashion setup.
I still would have found some form of Bluetooth link useful. Essentially Phase promised a hardware feature, I think it's actually there maybe, then killed it.
Everybody who needs a preview isn't necessarily shooting fashion.
Also, once you have some hardware going, you can write software around it eg. have the camera just send one small area, or a histogram of that area, or an indication of overexposed zones etc.
Edmund
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I still would have found some form of Bluetooth link useful. Essentially Phase promised a hardware feature, I think it's actually there maybe, then killed it.
Everybody who needs a preview isn't necessarily shooting fashion.
Also, once you have some hardware going, you can write software around it eg. have the camera just send one small area, or a histogram of that area, or an indication of overexposed zones etc.
Edmund
You're right about fashion and that some people won't mind waiting for a minute or two before the preview comes in.
I was just thinking out loud.
For me wifi was way too slow on the 5d for some others it might be good enough of course.
I would love to see the iPad or iPhone to be used without the need for a laptop, let's say indeed a compressed jpeg in half res would be enough to preview in most cases.
Main reason for me is focus check.
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You're right about fashion and that some people won't mind waiting for a minute or two before the preview comes in.
I was just thinking out loud.
For me wifi was way too slow on the 5d for some others it might be good enough of course.
I would love to see the iPad or iPhone to be used without the need for a laptop, let's say indeed a compressed jpeg in half res would be enough to preview in most cases.
Main reason for me is focus check.
Yes Frank,
I think that this would be the ideal and was the message sent in this thread.
In that case I will see the iPad as a great improvement.
Is it going to be a "message in a bottle"?
Cheers.
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Is it going to be a "message in a bottle"?
Cheers.
Just to add something to the bottle:
Just remember the good old times when shooting 4x5 or 8x10 inches - in front of a huge screen, really being able to design your image...
It would be great to have a proper life view from the back - no laptop in between - and an iPad which would help the poor guys (including me)
shooting with a DB on an Alpa or a similar camera in real time and not seeing what they capture until they see the image on screen of their laptop after half of an eternity.
So hopefully we will some improvements from Phase One for Photokina - at least we should be able to expect something out of the Phase back after the merge of Phase and Leaf - and Leaf seems to be rather close...
Markus
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Leaf already had a great iPhone app but you need a pc/Mac in between.
With the limited Bluetooth options of the iPad I don't think we will see something like we want, but we can all hope.
A digital with wifi, now that would be a solution, route the raws through FireWire or on the card and send a preview file to wifi to the iPad or iPhone. Now that would seriously push me to an upgrade.
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Leaf already had a great iPhone app but you need a pc/Mac in between.
With the limited Bluetooth options of the iPad I don't think we will see something like we want, but we can all hope.
A digital with wifi, now that would be a solution, route the raws through FireWire or on the card and send a preview file to wifi to the iPad or iPhone. Now that would seriously push me to an upgrade.
Yes.
What I do not get totally, is why would we need specially the iPad to acheive this? Why not an "home-made" solution from the photography industry and specially thought for the photographer?
With just the feature that are needed but perfectly implemented.
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Yes.
What I do not get totally, is why would we need specially the iPad to acheive this? Why not an "home-made" solution from the photography industry and specially thought for the photographer?
With just the feature that are needed but perfectly implemented.
I'm afraid that if leaf or phase one would release something like that it would be much more expensive. Plus I almost always have the ipad or iphone with me.
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Yes.
What I do not get totally, is why would we need specially the iPad to acheive this? Why not an "home-made" solution from the photography industry and specially thought for the photographer?
With just the feature that are needed but perfectly implemented.
Frank is right. Specialized hardware solutions (read: small production runs) from the photography industry are by necessity more expensive than writing software for existing non-specialized hardware with much larger market. Not to mention that anything labeled "photography" demands a premium over the generic stuff, from (gaffers) tape to high-def monitors.
Finally, there already are solutions from the industry: I believe onOne Software has an iPhone app which is to be released for iPad in the near future. Not sure about its feature set, though.
As soon as Android and Symbian and WebOS tablets come out we'll have competition to iPad, which will only make the customers (us) better off. Hell, they might even put a friggin USB port on one of those things or allow calibrating the screen or running more than one app at a time. And they'll certainly allow running non-approved apps.
Unless iPads and its ilk turn out to be the netbooks of 2010 and we (well, you) will be re-buying the next Big Thing again in 2011
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It is very
Bingo!
Kumar