Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: JohnBrew on May 21, 2010, 04:08:28 pm
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Recently this has become a problem. Almost any mounting system features some type of adhesive to attach the print to the mat. Lately it seems that almost every manner of these mounting adhesives (glue, archival linen, tape, u-name-it) has failed at one time or another. Actually glue on a hinge seems to work fairly well but sometimes I get ripples at the top of the print - even though I use a scant amount of the stuff. So what works for you? I'm especially interested in what others are doing for larger prints (8 x 10's don't seem to be a problem). Thanks for all replies.
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I just follow what Bill Atkinson showed in the video journal. T-hinge using tyvek tape over Filmoplast P90, then loose-fitting photo corners at the bottom.
However, I don't have any that have been up for a long time. I started doing this about 1 year ago.
Dave
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LINK: http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/pro...ProductID=17332 (http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=17332)
Talas (talasonline.com) is a great site re: archival supplies. They sell a product called "Art Saver: Professional Archival Mounting System" (Vicki Schober Co., Waukeska, WI) which is pretty interesting in that the print is held in place - but there is NO actual
attachment to the print - allowing it to 'float'. 100 mounting strips per box - 4" per strip - so you can use as little / as much as is
required to properly support a large print.
e/tb
seeing@contemplativeeye.com
Recently this has become a problem. Almost any mounting system features some type of adhesive to attach the print to the mat. Lately it seems that almost every manner of these mounting adhesives (glue, archival linen, tape, u-name-it) has failed at one time or another. Actually glue on a hinge seems to work fairly well but sometimes I get ripples at the top of the print - even though I use a scant amount of the stuff. So what works for you? I'm especially interested in what others are doing for larger prints (8 x 10's don't seem to be a problem). Thanks for all replies.
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...just as an also here... do not mount anything the mat!! It gets mounted to the backer board. Otherwise, if someone in the future opens the package up and lifts the mat, they stand the chance of damaging the art. Also... if the mat gets damaged, you remove the damaged one and replace it with a new one in the same place because you didn't have to remove the art from the damaged mat and remount it to the new one.
My personal method for mounting would be corner pockets with T hinges at the top if needed.
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I just follow what Bill Atkinson showed in the video journal. T-hinge using tyvek tape over Filmoplast P90, then loose-fitting photo corners at the bottom.
However, I don't have any that have been up for a long time. I started doing this about 1 year ago.
Dave
Dave,
I tried the self adhesive archival Tyvek tape for years with hinge mounts and many of my prints that were sold to clients who live in warm climates fell due to the adhesive getting soft and losing tack when the temperature in the frame would rise. Once a framed print is sold, we have no control over where the print will be exhibited so we have to plan for the worst. My own prints hinged with Tyvek have never fallen though I live in a cool climate and and the prints are never subject to direct sun or indoor heat. The Tyvek adhesive has become far less tacky with time, so this is a concern. Having experienced client's prints falling due to heat in the frame I'd personally avoid self adhesive tapes and stick with gummed Linen or archival paper tape. Neither of these have ever failed me.
Lawrence
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...just as an also here... do not mount anything the mat!! It gets mounted to the backer board. Otherwise, if someone in the future opens the package up and lifts the mat, they stand the chance of damaging the art. Also... if the mat gets damaged, you remove the damaged one and replace it with a new one in the same place because you didn't have to remove the art from the damaged mat and remount it to the new one.
My personal method for mounting would be corner pockets with T hinges at the top if needed.
Agree with this approach. I use Mylar archival corners to attach to foam board with no attachment to the overmat. My maximum print size has been 13x19 and I've had 10 prints on display in the "gallery" at our offices for over 15 months now with no sign of any buckling or other problems (with prints this size, you don't need any T hinges but I suppose as you go larger they may be a necessity).
Alan
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I'd personally avoid self adhesive tapes and stick with gummed Linen or archival paper tape. Neither of these have ever failed me.
Lawrence
Lawrence, gummed linen was exactly what got me in trouble. I live in a warm, humid area of the world. Why I posed this question was to hopefully discover a product someone else was using which I have either not heard of or not tried. I'm going to try the archival tape, but at this point I'm using at least two separate methods together with my larger prints, hoping that if one gives up the other will still hang in there (forgive the pun!)
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Lawrence, gummed linen was exactly what got me in trouble. I live in a warm, humid area of the world. Why I posed this question was to hopefully discover a product someone else was using which I have either not heard of or not tried. I'm going to try the archival tape, but at this point I'm using at least two separate methods together with my larger prints, hoping that if one gives up the other will still hang in there (forgive the pun!)
I use clear mounting strips. I mount prints from 13"x19" to 20"x30". Here is one dealer that I have used:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/see-thru-mounting-strips/ (http://www.dickblick.com/products/see-thru-mounting-strips/)
Good luck
Dave
PS I leave a very slight clearance so the print can expand/contract, with out rinkling.
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I created this web page (picture mounting (http://www.framedestination.com/picture_frame_mounting.html)) to help gather info about mounting, and we carry various types of tapes, corners and strips. Personally, I prefer the self adhesive tape that does not require water activation, or if the image has a white border I may use the corners instead and I agree with the idea of also using photo corners or strips to help provide backup support if transporting the images.
Cheers,
Mark
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I am using 1.25" archival corners on acid free foam core with a hinged matt. Obviously I have enough overlap to hide the corners. The bottom corners are set a little wider than the print (1/16 or a little less) to prevent buckling if the print "expands," the top corners a little wider and higher. This is working well with 17x22 Epson Exhibition Fiber, the nice thing about it is that I can swap out prints on the matts, so it's easy to rotate displays. I can see how larger sizes might need more support, though, and have nothing to offer on that.
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I am using 1.25" archival corners on acid free foam core with a hinged matt. Obviously I have enough overlap to hide the corners. The bottom corners are set a little wider than the print (1/16 or a little less) to prevent buckling if the print "expands," the top corners a little wider and higher. This is working well with 17x22 Epson Exhibition Fiber, the nice thing about it is that I can swap out prints on the matts, so it's easy to rotate displays. I can see how larger sizes might need more support, though, and have nothing to offer on that.
I thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. I am hanging for a new show which starts next week, a 2' x 3' print. I'm not convinced that the archival corners will work for a print this large. But I haven't tried them yet So for the moment, I'm going to use archival tape for hinges and just hit the top with a bit of photo spray. Seriously, I'm not certain I have a problem, I just don't want to have one in the near term. I've talked with some of my compadres about this and most of them are of the opinion that I've got it covered, however there are a few (very few, like only one) who are using the archival strip mounting system. If I have a future problem I'll have to look more seriously at the strip mounting system where the print really floats in the mat.
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... stick with gummed Linen or archival paper tape.
Gummed linen is for attaching the top edge of the mat to the top edge of the mount board ONLY. It is NOT to come into contact with the artwork.
Here's my standard spiel: (Written originally for a novice audience. Forgive the tone if it sounds to preachy...)
DOT COM EDITOR'S CRASH COURSE IN MATTING AND FRAMING
Proper matting and framing are crucial. That’s because the only thing people see is the print and frame on the wall, not the camera and printer used.
Everything -- mats, mount board, adhesives, etc. -- must be acid free. Cheap, non-acid-free materials will ruin your work over time.
MAKE ME A SANDWICH
From front to back in your frame you’ll make a sandwich consisting of the glazing (glass or acrylic), mat (one or more, depending on taste), the print, mount board, optional backer board, and, finally (wood frames only) backing paper. Let’s go from front to back.
GLAZING
You can use Acrylite acrylic or framing glass. Acrylite is optically pure (no green edge like glass) and weighs much less, but scratches easily. Glass is heavy but durable. Always pay extra for glazing with UV protection. Tru Vue Museum Glass (http://www.tru-vue.com) is the best framing glass to use, but it is outrageously expensive. I use Tru-Vue Reflection Control glass. Excellent, and much less expensive than Museum Glass.
MATS
Use "rag mat" made from 100% cotton. It contains no wood pulp, lignin, or other bad acidic stuff that'll destroy the print over time. Yep, you can buy regular board (wood pulp alpha-cellulose core with an acid-free surface), but for a few dollars more, I strongly recommend that you go for true archival quality. And since you're going for rag mat, spend yet a little more and get double-thick mat, known as "8-ply." Though offered only in limited colors, 8-ply mat makes for a gorgeous presentation and will set your work apart from everyone else using standard 4-ply mat. Trust me: Choose 8-ply and the world will see your work as fine art; stick with 4-ply and your image will be seen as merely a framed photo.
I cut all my own mats but have my wooden frames made to order Why do I cut my own mats? Because simply getting a hole cut in a mat triples or quadruples the price -- a total rip-off. I bought a 60" Logan Framer's Edge model 655 mat cutter which cuts 4-ply and 8-ply mats. I buy mat blanks at http://www.redimat.com (http://www.redimat.com) and other places in sheets measuring 32"x40" or 40"x60".
For a great, sophisticated look, make the borders on your mat at least 3" wide. So, a 13"x19" print will need a mat and frame cut to 19"x25". If you want to go with a standard size frame, simply use 18"x24" for this mat and frame. It's a difference of only a half-inch all the way around. Remember that you'll cut the window in the mat to 12.75" x 18.75" providing a 1/8" overlap all around for this print.
Your photo is next in the sandwich and gets affixed to the mount board -- NOT to the mat. (Technique coming up.) Use archival (acid-free) mount board, because what's behind the print is equally important. I use Beinfang brand foamboard. Behind that, you can have a backer board. I don’t bother, except for very large prints, where it adds more rigidity.
HOW IT’S DONE
Step 1: Attach mat to mount board. Set mount board face up. Put mat over it, also face up. Now swing the mat up as if it is taped to the mount board along the top. Cut a long piece of Lineco Self-Adhesive Linen Tape (Lin-533-1055) and attach the abutting window mat (now face down) to the face up mount board along its entire length. Position print on the backer board. Swing mat down into place. Move print around (you ARE wearing white cotton gloves, right?) to position it. Apply weights to keep the print in place; swing mat out of the way.
Step 2: Hinge mount the print to the mount board. The only way to do archival mounting is by hinging. Use archival, acid-free hinging tissue. Mount print at only two points and let it hang from those two points (hinges). If you attach at multiple points (top and bottom, for example -- or use a spray adhesive), results over time may not be satisfactory because mount board and print may react to changes in humidity at different rates. The board may warp or the print may buckle. Use Lineco Self-Adhesive Hinging Tissue (Lin-533-1055) to mount the print to the mount board at two points.
See the "hinging" technique here:
http://www.framedestination.com/picture_frame_mounting.html (http://www.framedestination.com/picture_frame_mounting.html)
See the Lineco linen tape and hinging tissue here:
http://framingsupplies.com/ToolsTapesGlues...sTapesGlues.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/ToolsTapesGlues/ToolsTapesGlues.htm)
Step 3: Insert sandwich into the frame. (I go one step further and apply foil tape to the inside surfaces of the wood frame, ensuring that wood fibers never come in contact with mat or mount board.) You removed all dust and lint, right? To hold the assembled glazing, mat, print, mount board, and optional backer board in place in a wood frame, use a Fletcher FrameMaster gun to insert framer's points:
http://framingsupplies.com/Fletcher/FletcherPointDriver.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/Fletcher/FletcherPointDriver.htm)
Step 4: Apply 3M Scotch ATG Gold #908 acid-free adhesive transfer tape (NOT #924, which is not acid free) around the entire rear edge of the frame using a 3M ATG 700 gun (the yellow one).
Here’s the tape:
http://framingsupplies.com/3M/3MATGTape.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/3M/3MATGTape.htm)
and the 3M ATG 700 gun (the yellow one):
http://framingsupplies.com/3M/TapeDispenserGuns.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/3M/TapeDispenserGuns.htm)
Step 5: Attach sheet of acid-free backing paper to the adhesive transfer tape you've just laid down. I use the black paper shown here:
http://framingsupplies.com/BackingPapersandPlasticBags.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/BackingPapersandPlasticBags.htm)
And I trim it using the trimmer knife shown at the top right of that same Web page.
Add wood frame hangers: http://framingsupplies.com/FrameHangers.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/FrameHangers.htm)
and hanging wire: http://framingsupplies.com/HangingWire.htm (http://framingsupplies.com/HangingWire.htm)
To review: Use only archival, acid-free mats, mount board, backer board, backing paper, and adhesives everywhere. The incremental cost is not much.
Disclaimer: I have no connection to RediMat, Framing Supplies, or Frame Destination. These are the places where I buy most of my supplies. (Actually, now that I have a sales tax certificate, I now buy direct from a large distributor of framing supplies.)
This is possibly overkill. But for me, after spending $8,000 on just my primary camera body, many times that on lenses, and $7,500 for my printer, this is short money well spent. After all, as I noted earlier, the only thing people see is the print and frame, not the camera and printer used.
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I've been using water-activated Lineco linen hinging tape and found that after a couple of years in northern New Hampshire environment (just about every weather you can think of visits here each year), the glue gets "crispy", and a little tug can dislodge the print. After reading responses here, I'm going to add corners, at least to the bottom of the prints, to serve as a backup. (Most of my prints are larger than 20 x 16 inches, and I use heavy papers and no glass or acrylic.)
I have started using Hahnemühle's stretcher bar system for my canvas prints (and like it), and it comes with a bottle of "Archival Glue". I realize that there is no standard for "archival", and manufacturers can slap that name on whatever the want, but I would like to believe that it is a different formula from good ol' wood glue. I'm thinking of adding a dot or two of it between the back of the print (top border) and the backing board. I'd like forum members' feedback on that.
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This is from Canson's website, regarding framing recommendations: (http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/framing.asp)
"For all fine art prints and posters with a potential of future value, the mounting method chosen must be totally reversible, meaning that the artwork comes out of the frame at a future date in the same condition it went in. This eliminates permanent mounting methods, such as heat-activated dry mounting, laminating, spray adhesives, pressure sensitive tapes, and any other method that imparts adhesive into the substrate fibers or hinders reversibility in any other way. The mounts must be affixed to the perimeter of the artwork in a manner that does not restrict the minor movement of the paper and does not extend into the image field on the front or back of the work."
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I know this topic is outdated, but I hope one catches this.
I here what's said about true archivability (print must be detachable), however, there's still a serious issue with the hinge/hanging method, and that's flatness. I have large ilfochrome prints (4 ft plus squared) and I can't get the wrinkles out of the way. plus the glossiness of the paper makes things much worse.
if one mounts on aluminum using acid free film, wouldn't that be archival? aluminum stays unaltered and the print will always be on it. Plus there are heat activated dry-mount methods which claim that the print can be removed with reheating.
This is becoming my worse nightmare now... I have the best prints, done in darkroom and I can't get them mounted flat.
Any help is truly appreciated.
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Mounting to aluminum or an rigid substrate is hard to do except with transfer adhesive. I have a 40+ year history of using transfer adhesives, and based on that I won't even consider using transfer adhesives today. Nearly 100% adhesive failures by the 20 year point, and usually much sooner. Those kinds of mountings are for near term use only.
IMHO, your best bet is to dry mount to museum board using the finest tissues and the most impeccable technique. I have many examples of 50+ year dry mounted photos that are still down perfectly. And also some examples that aren't. The difference is, the ones with the most longevity were mounted by me after careful pre-presses of the print and mount (but minus the tissue) designed to drive out the moisture out of the print and substrate, and the poorly mounted ones were done commerically by a company that almost certainly didn't pre-press the moisture away.
Yes, to attach the defacto "archival" moniker the print must be removable. But ask any framer and he will cite numerous examples where rippling, hinge-mounted prints were subsequently dry mounted because the owners hated the ripple. Small prints don't ripple that badly. But as you as you are seeing, 4 footers will be ripple rich and the common wisdom that applies to small prints requires an exception for the big ones.
My one concern would be with heating those old Ilfochromes. Most museums either have or know a conservator. Might be a good idea to have a chat with that person before proceeding. There are many somewhat hard to use archival glues and other esoteric methods of "restoring" prints that might be applicable to your old prints. But in any case, I think using transfer adhesives on those would be a mistake.
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I use archival self-adhesive linen tape in a "T" hinge configuration to mount the print to the back-mat. Then the front mat (the one with the cutout) is hinged to the back-mat with the same tape.
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I use water-activated, Lineco linen tape to hang the print using T-hinges on the top, and I attach a pair of Mylar corners on the bottom. I think it's important not to be stingy with the hinging tape, I use about 4" for the cross-pieces on the T, and I always try to have a top border on the print of at least 1 1/2" to attach the hinge to.
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Dear Bill,
Thanks for your reply! ...It's obvious you speak of hard earned experience. I'll take this chance to ask a couple of specific questions which will clarify things better for me. I do appreciate your time.
The use of transfer adhesives you mentioned which always fails, does that include cases where 'acid free/solvent free' adhesives where used as well? I am asking in case that acid free adhesive films are a new technology.
As I understand, and please correct me if I am mistaken, dry mounting uses a film which has a heat activated glue and can only work on porous mounting surfaces. I guess that's why we cannot dry-mount on aluminum, which would be ideal for moisture purposes. I've seen there are a few low-temperature films available which could work, if done properly as you say. Are heating-roller presses ok? or the ones which are like two large surfaces clamping together better? I am asking for purposes of mounting as well as removing the moisture.
My cibachrome prints are actually fairly new (the printer had old stock) so they should be ok for the first mounting. Although not sure for any additional re-mountings needed in the future.
I've seen some framing methods which allow the print to come directly in contact with the glass, which keeps it flat. Is that a good way to go? Speaking of glass, how bad is it if you allow print to touch it? this also effects the spacing used.
I've also thought of static electricity but I didn't find anything out there...
I wont keep this longer.. Thanks in advance Bill!
best,
papandre
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I will be quickly clear about one thing -- never allow artwork to be in contact with the glazing material installed over it. That means that your (or anyone else's) photographs should not be touching either the glass or acrylic that is over it. The glazing must be raised by the matting or some other means. For a very large print, this could mean using a thicker matt to avoid the two coming in contact somewhere in the middle of the expanse. Whatever it takes, that's what you do. --Barbara
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Clear as glass!
Thank you
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As soon as I posted my last reply, I thought about the new presentation technique, which I haven't seen a real-life example of, and have only read about, that involves face-mounting a photograph to acrylic. Is Diasec the name used for this? I understand that one cannot use inkjet printed photographs for this method (I think because they don't adhere adequately). Someone with experience with this could chime in here. Anyway, my comments about not allowing a print/photograph to come into contact with overlying glass or acrylic obviously applies to the traditional framing that I thought you had in mind (as you were talking about matting, also). I have seen a nice old photograph carelessly stuck into a frame behind glass with no matt, and the photograph actually became stuck to the glass in sections (no way to separate the two) -- painful to see. --Barbara
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As soon as I posted my last reply, I thought about the new presentation technique, which I haven't seen a real-life example of, and have only read about, that involves face-mounting a photograph to acrylic. Is Diasec the name used for this? I understand that one cannot use inkjet printed photographs for this method (I think because they don't adhere adequately).
Inkjet prints work just fine for face mounting to acrylic, at least pigment inks.
Brian A
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In case you are considering face mounting inkjet prints, you might want to look at printing directly on solid material. I've heard with new printers it's possible now to print with archival inks on surfaces like acrylic, glass or metal. hence you might as well print directly a reverse image on the back of a transparent surface. Never done it, but i think it's worth researching.
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Well if you have the money.
A DirectJet 13x24 flatbed printer is $23,000 and a full sheet machine can be $60,000 and more.
You can facemount to acrylic with a $100 printer and a manual laminator all for under $500.00.if cost is a consideration.
Flatbed DTG printers (direct to garment)are hot right now. Printing directly to the wearable product in place of dye sublimating it. Brother makes a nice DTG printer line that starts at $20,000.
Almost any pro level flatbed printer is going to be expensive.
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Its an old topic but a good one!!
Problem with mounting the print touching the glass is it doesn't allow for air flow or allow the print to breathe. Moisture/condensation can (will!!) cause the print to stick to the glass ruining the print also possible causing mould etc.
I also wouldn't use any type of heat activated mounting. You could possibly use cold rollers using pressure sensitive film to mount to aluminium but it would be forever mounted. (but this seems to be the way a lot of large work is getting mounted these days)
Someone touched on it earlier that you could have the prints mounted using japanese tissue also. (this is the method i would look into given that they are "real" prints not ink jet prints). I've never seen this done but have read about it.
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Its an old topic but a good one!!
Problem with mounting the print touching the glass is it doesn't allow for air flow or allow the print to breathe. Moisture/condensation can (will!!) cause the print to stick to the glass ruining the print also possible causing mould etc.
The sticking issue is true for traditional photographs made with gelatin emulsions. Gelatin undergoes what material scientists refer to as the glass transition temperature (Tg) at about 24C/75F and reverts to a gel-like state when humidity goes above approximately 70%RH for extended periods of time. Gelatin's Tg value is highly moisture dependent (i.e., lower RH requires higher temperature, and vice versa). This 75F/70%RH temp/RH level is very commonly encountered in typical real world conditions, especially during summertime periods. All photographs that have ever stuck to the photo frame glazing have been subjected to such a real world temperature and humidity cycle event. The adhesion then takes place when the gelatin goes back to below Tg temp/RH conditions and the gelatin returns from the rubbery gel state back to a relatively brittle and dry polymer state. Gelatin is after all a very close chemical cousin to traditional hyde glues used in traditional wood working.
The room temperature/moderately high Relative humidity value that triggers the Tg transition for gelatin photographs is not necessarily true for other media, so not all works of art on paper will stick like traditional photos to glass. Many but not all(e.g., the "swellable polymer media" which are pretty much no longer on the market) inkjet media are not going to stick to glass like traditional silver gelatin photographs. Adding a spray coat like Premier Print Shield which is an acrylic polymer will tip the odds as well much in favor of not sticking. However, there may be cockling and mould damage at prolonged high humidity levels with all works of art on paper, coated or not. That said, artwork can also be protected from high humidity cycles in most typical print viewing environments and thus kept safely away from humidity-induced issues by creating sealed microclimates such that seasonally induced high moisture spikes inside the picture frame are eliminated. Said microclimate methods take more discussion than can be reasonably described here, but I do it all the time, and with prints on display for over two decades, I have had no issues whatsoever with placing photographs in direct contact with glass or acrylic. This is my preferred method with inkjet media in these modern times because I like the borderless, no over mat look for most of my photographs. The visual effect can be very similar to "front facing" techniques like Diasec yet retain some of the surface texture of the fine art media which I often find preferable to the totally slick glossy appearance of Diasec. The prints stay flat, no cockling, no hinge mounting techniques necessary, and the picture framing costs are lower. :)
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com