Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Roscolo on May 03, 2010, 11:12:34 pm
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I have a customer for whom I was printing images of his paintings. He seems to prefer a gloss or semi-gloss finish. We played around with some acrylic gel medium and he liked the effect.
Question: What are some of the better options out there. Everything looks to be $90 / gallon and up. What do you like and why? I've looked at Glamour II and Eco Print Shield. Has anyone used Lexjet's Sunset Coatings? I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas.
And this isn't just for his paintings. Now I'm thinking of coating my photos that are printed on canvas. I do not want a hi-gloss on my photos on canvas. How does a Glamour II matte coating look compared to just the print on canvas. If it only darkens the blacks, but the rest of the print appears more or less how it appears uncoated, that may be up my alley for my photographs. If possible, I would prefer an alternative product not from Breathing Color. One of their reps was downright pushy and rude in a sales / telemarketing call and that has stuck in my mind ever since. I understand a lot of folks like the Glamour II product, though.
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I've used Glamour II and can give a few pointers. Hopefully others like Dan will chime in, as they have far more experience with the coating side of things.
The Glamour II matte really isn't meant to be used straight. It's intended to mix with the Glamour II gloss to adjust the sheen to your desired look. I use a 50/50 mix of the two and like it a lot. It's a protective coating that adds a bit of shine but isn't super gloss.
How you apply it makes a difference as well. I've only ever used roller application, but others who use a spraygun say that you can get very different effects at the same mix ratio just by how many layers you apply.
You can order pints of the matte and gloss from Breathing Colour to try it out before committing to the full gallon buckets.
Neil
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Part of the reason the for-canvas coatings are so expensive is that they as designed to be flexible enough so you can stretch the canvas (within a reasonable period after coating).
Glamour II represents pretty good value because it is rather concentrated. 1 gallon over GII translates to about 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of coating that you can supposedly use "straight from the can" such as Clearshield and the Lexjet product. Of course handling the thicker-than-molasses GII concentrate up to the dilution step can be a PITA by any measure, until you get your technique together.
Yes you can get different finishes just by the way you apply the coating. But I think for maximum protection and durability and minimum sub-surface scattering you should always apply very thick, wet coats and only vary the mixture of matte and gloss to get the desired finish. As little as 1:9 Matte:Gloss gives you a distinctly less-than-glossy finish, at about 50:50 you are very distinctly matte. It takes about 6 hours for GII to dry to the point where you can judge the finish, which gradually loses it's gloss for long after it is dry to the touch.
You must coat canvases unless you plan to frame them under glass or plex. Uncoated matte canvas prints can look quite nice, but in a way that can't be duplicated by a matte-coated canvas. Coating just adds a different dynamic, no matter what you do.
Coating pulls down the blacks quite a bit and increases the overall apparent snap of the print. Basically, just print with your shadows a little more open than you want. I have semi-successfully used special profiles made from coated canvas, but without yakking a lot I would advise you to use profiles made from uncoated canvas, and print up.
Set aside a few weeks to learn the ins and outs of using canvas. There are lots of ins, and many outs. But let me save you at least 2 months...wet coatings, not dry ones. And HVLP is good, but rolling can be mastered by those with high pain thresholds.
And I know certain people who use just regular Home Depot acrylic coatings on their canvases. But I won't tell you who they are, or what they use because I think it unwise.
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Still researching coatings. Has anyone used Breathing Color's Timeless coating? Apparently it is the replacement for the Glamour II product.
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Still researching coatings. Has anyone used Breathing Color's Timeless coating? Apparently it is the replacement for the Glamour II product.
Actually Timeless is not a replacement for Glamour II. It is a ready to use (no mixing) sealant. The available matte finish is supposed to be what really sets Timeless apart from the rest. I recently received a pint of the Timeless matte to try. Otherwise, I'm extremely happy using Glamour II with hvlp on Lyve Canvas. I've got it to where missing Glamour II in the right ratio is easy and works well everytime. Timeless is more expensive since you don't really dilute the solution, though you may thin it slightly when using a hvlp sprayer.
ken
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Actually Timeless is not a replacement for Glamour II. It is a ready to use (no mixing) sealant. The available matte finish is supposed to be what really sets Timeless apart from the rest. I recently received a pint of the Timeless matte to try. Otherwise, I'm extremely happy using Glamour II with hvlp on Lyve Canvas. I've got it to where missing Glamour II in the right ratio is easy and works well everytime. Timeless is more expensive since you don't really dilute the solution, though you may thin it slightly when using a hvlp sprayer.
ken
Thanks. The other thing I'm trying to calculate is how much canvas I can cover per gallon of Glamour II. Breathing Color's site states that one coat of Glamour II is usually enough. I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte. For my own work I print for retail sale, I'm not as concerned, but for my customers for whom I'm printing their photos and paintings, the margin is slimmer and I need to adjust my prices to account for the coating expense and labor.
For Glamour II users, how many square feet of canvas can you coat per gallon of Glamour II?
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I have not tried the Timeless product to date as I am happy with my Glamor II results. As Bill points out give yourself plenty of time and just work with the product. I do not care for the straight matte finish or even 50/50 matte/gloss. At this point I have about 4 containers with different mixtures of glamor and my most used mixture is 75/25 gloss/matte.
I have never done any calculations with regards to useage of Glamor II. Spraying clearshield was easy to figure useage because the cans usually only covered 2 prints.
My charge for glamor is 3 cents per square inch but everyone that orders canvas gets the varnish so it is really built into the price.
Its probably just as easy for you to figure out the useage yourself. Just keep track of how many ounces you are using when you do a mixture and keep track of how many square feet it covers. You know what you pay per gallon which gives you the cost per ounce. Do the math and you have your answer.
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Thanks, Dan. Eventually I'll have the sq.ft. / gallon calculated, but as I've never used Glamour II before, I'm just trying to get some rough numbers out there to a few customers. Canvasses I've seen, I'm not at all crazy about the high-gloss appearance. I'm looking for more of a satin appearance.
I'm going to experiment with some acrylic mediums and varnishes for paintings as well. Those are in the $50-$75 / gallon range. Painters have the same non-yellowing and archival concerns as I do, so it seems worth experimenting with. I've not seen any independent archival ratings for the Glamour II product so I'm a little cautious about using it. Think I may order some small quantities of Glamour II, Eco Printshield, and some artist's acrylic varnish and experiment. Spraying seems like the way to go.
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Spraying is a very good way to go. I believe I get more out of a gallon by spraying if you know what i mean. If you use an ounce of glamor per square foot your cost should be less then .50 per square foot. Thats less then half the cost of Clearshield per square foot. I have done no real tests and am just estimating.
Good idea to try all these different products as it is the best way to learn.
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I think this is my last question on the topic. I purchased an airless sprayer some years ago. Big unit. Used it to paint my house and the gallery here. Mine has been packed up and unused for years. Probably needs a new gun. Can't remember the model name. How would a commercial airless sprayer do for spraying canvas?
Thanks for all the help.
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Spraying is a very good way to go. I believe I get more out of a gallon by spraying if you know what i mean. If you use an ounce of glamor per square foot your cost should be less then .50 per square foot. Thats less then half the cost of Clearshield per square foot. I have done no real tests and am just estimating.
Good idea to try all these different products as it is the best way to learn.
Dan, Off Topic, did you close your furniture making business? I noticed you no longer link to the website.
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Dan, Off Topic, did you close your furniture making business? I noticed you no longer link to the website.
Yes I did,Aug. 09. I now have the whole 2500 sq. ft. renovated into a gallery and printmaking studio. Way more then I need but I have about half of it still filled with equipment for woodworking.
Here is a quick picture of the renovated studio/workshop and spray booth. I am still cleaning up sawdust that is falling through the cracks in the walls.
Thanks for asking.
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Still not sure if my airless sprayer is appropriate for spraying canvas coatings. I have a Campbell Hausfeld airless, 1/2 hp, .30 gpm sprayer. It is about like this one:
http://www.cpocampbellhausfeld.com/paint_s...ers/ps250b.html (http://www.cpocampbellhausfeld.com/paint_systems/airless_paint_sprayers/ps250b.html)
Seems everyone is using HVLP systems, and if I understand correctly, an airless unit like mine is High pressure and so may not be ideal or even practical for spraying canvas.
Can someone confirm or deny?
I see some folks seem to be getting good results with a cheap Wagner HVLP.
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I cannot answer directly with regards to that model but do not see any reason why it would not work. An absolute must is to make sure it is clean. It is very important to not switch back and forth between multiple products. Paint,varnishes etc.
You would be amazed at what sticks to the insides of your lines and gun. Any contaminate that finds it's way onto the print will ruin your day.
Control of the spray nozzel is super important as well. You have to be able to adjust your spray ouput. Its not like spraying the deck.
I have plenty of spraybooth experience just none with your type equipment. Mix a small batch and try it out.
Please let us know how it worked out.
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Roscolo-
I've used a number of airless sprayers over the years, and suspect that it can be done, but think it will be far from ideal. The units are designed for volume spraying of relatively inexpensive, heavy material. Undiluted acrylic latex blasted on a wall is very nearly the other end of the spectrum from what we want for applying clear finish to prints. The units I owned did not even have any real adjustability of the air to material ratios (that is a function of the spray head, and is strictly venturi), or fan spread. There was a pump pressure adjustment only. I think some adjustment can be had by getting a different spray tip, perhaps one with a smaller orifice, but I think you are going to find that they are very wasteful and produce a large amount of overspray. The large amount of material in the hoses would also make routine cleanup very labor intensive. Keeping it loaded full time is possible, but a real pain to avoid drying problems where there is contact with air. I once sprayed a lot of contact cement with a pressure pot and compressor and was quite successful with keeping that setup going without flushing, but airless sprayers are not as easy to do that with. In my opinion, the money you save in not buying new equipment will be fairly quickly offset by the additional coating you will go through. With the challenge of applying the material properly with the airless, it seems like a misguided compromise. On the other hand, if you want to get into printing mural size prints with a grand format printer, you may be ideally positioned to coat them quickly and efficiently.
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There is some really good advice buried in the history of this forum. Here are some threads about coating in the last year:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=42429 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42429)
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=41103 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41103)
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39983 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39983)
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=38663 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38663)
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=37456 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37456)
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33259 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33259)
--Milt--
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Thank you Milt for taking the time to dig those out.
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I'm going to experiment with some acrylic mediums and varnishes for paintings as well. Those are in the $50-$75 / gallon range. Painters have the same non-yellowing and archival concerns as I do, so it seems worth experimenting with. I've not seen any independent archival ratings for the Glamour II product so I'm a little cautious about using it. Think I may order some small quantities of Glamour II, Eco Printshield, and some artist's acrylic varnish and experiment. Spraying seems like the way to go.
A became curious about the various acrylic coatings available, and their prices. Basically, all these coatings have their origins in a Rohman Haas product from the 50's call Rhoplex. Acrylic artists in the 60's jumped all over it, using it as a paint base to add pigments and other additives to. Also, the popular arcrylics--Liquitex and Golden medias come from this same product.
If you check with art schools, you will find that many artists will buy the polymer base called Rhoplex from local paint companys that use it to manufacture their own latex paints.
I found that the Rosco company (Rosco theatrical gels), also sells a similar product available as a clear gloss and matte.
http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp (http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp)
I have been using the clear gloss and diluting it about 1 to 1 and spraying with an HPLC type unit. The product is similar with a milky appearance that drys to a nice clear glossy appearance. You will note that it contains Titanium Oxide, which is a UV protectant. The list price is a very reasonable $39/gallon. But it comes packaged in a traditioinal metal paint can.
I have a south window test in progress right now with the Rosco product coating Ink Jet Technology's Water Resistant Canvas. If I have not seen any shift after 3-5 months of Nebraska Summer sun, I'm sure it will be comparable to the other commercial products.
John Nollendorfs
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I found that the Rosco company (Rosco theatrical gels), also sells a similar product available as a clear gloss and matte.
http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp (http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp)
I have been using the clear gloss and diluting it about 1 to 1 and spraying with an HPLC type unit. The product is similar with a milky appearance that drys to a nice clear glossy appearance. You will note that it contains Titanium Oxide, which is a UV protectant. The list price is a very reasonable $39/gallon. But it comes packaged in a traditioinal metal paint can.
John Nollendorfs
Thanks, John. This is the kind of info. I've been searching for. In my experience, everything that carries the Rosco name is top-notch. Have you used any of the Rosco matte product? Curious if you can achieve a satin appearance by combining the Rosco gloss with the Rosco matte, as you can with the "other brands." Keep us posted on your test. I'm definitely putting this on my list of products to try.
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Thanks, John. This is the kind of info. I've been searching for. In my experience, everything that carries the Rosco name is top-notch. Have you used any of the Rosco matte product? Curious if you can achieve a satin appearance by combining the Rosco gloss with the Rosco matte, as you can with the "other brands." Keep us posted on your test. I'm definitely putting this on my list of products to try.
I'm sure you can mix the two together, but I am quite happy with the gloss product. I bought it as an experiment, figuring I could always buy the matte latter on if needed. Additionally I have found, it is quite forgiving in it's application. If you get a run, just carefully blot it up with a paper towel before it starts to dry. I've used about 1/3 of a gallon in two months and have excellent results so far. The real proof will be when I examine the South Window tests after 4 months in September. I am confident there will be no yellowing, but want to make sure that there is no interaction with the HP pigmented inks from the Z3100 and the IJ water resistant canvas. People stretching the canvas, report no problems with cracking at the edges. Will keep everyone apprised if I notice any problems.
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I found a local source for the Rosco Clear and Matte coatings and will be trying them out next week.
I wonder how the Rosco Plastic Varnish would do? It's also available in gloss and matte and you can blend the 2 together. May give some of that a test as well.
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I found a local source for the Rosco Clear and Matte coatings and will be trying them out next week.
I wonder how the Rosco Plastic Varnish would do? It's also available in gloss and matte and you can blend the 2 together. May give some of that a test as well.
Are you referring to the Urethanes? They may be a "harder" finish, and may have problems with craquelure when stretched. I was having problems like that when using Krylon Kamar spray--a year or two after spraying and stretching, the canvas' developed fine cracks all over. Also, I discovered, that the Krylon Kamar spray did not offer very good water protection when used on a "non-water resistant" canvas.
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John, no, the Rosco Plastic Varnish is water-based and apparently you can achieve varying gloss by mixing matte with gloss. See the specs here:
http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx (http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx)
Can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer and judging from the lack of bubbles or edges, appears to be self-leveling as well. I may pick up a gallon of this and experiment as well, especially when you look at some of the dilutions. 1 gallon could turn into 3-4 gallons of workable coating.
Correction: just realized the Plastic Varnish is not a Rosco product, but is made by Sculptural Arts Coatings. I think I'll still give it a test.
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Hello, Roscolo,
only able to impart a few words here.
HVLP set-ups are easy to use.
Airless ain't
You'll need ml x many = enough to fill the rig and hose on an airless.
Airless delivers somewhere north of 1000 psi at the tip.
Massive overspray even for a good hand
Airless will work, I just don't see how if you could do that you couldn't get an inexpensive cupgun, or an expensive one for that matter.
I have a 50 dollar one that has lasted and the only thing it hates is not being cleaned
To fill an airless it seems like depending, could take a gallon, then spraying, another depending on how much work you've got, then the second gallon will be sitting in the rig, flush it through with water to clean, and lose at least 40 bucks in the process.
Buys your cup gun and a gallon for the same price.
Then there's the part of what to do with the leavings
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HVLP set-ups are easy to use.
Airless ain't
Thanks. I already have a nice airless spray system, but I figured out airless isn't the way to go for spraying canvas. I'll probably go for the cheap Wagner folks seem to have success with and go from there.
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Thanks. I already have a nice airless spray system, but I figured out airless isn't the way to go for spraying canvas. I'll probably go for the cheap Wagner folks seem to have success with and go from there.
Yep, I got the $60 Wagner. Works pretty well, but sometimes gets cranky and doesn't want to spit out anything. Just put your finger in front of nozzle to build up pressure in container. After a bit of usage, tends to get stuff built up around central needle that you can't remove for cleaning. Made a cleaning tool out of a paper clip to scrape the build up off.
The plastic, might be a thicker media--The Rosco stuff is quite thin already before adding water. It dries pretty quickly--5 minutes or less depending on how thick you put it on. Don't worry if it looks milky when you spray. It will dry clear. If it starts to run, quickly blot with paper towel. I put on 3-4 coats. First coats can go on pretty heavy. Go lighter with additional coats.
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Thanks, John, again for the Rosco tip. In the past I've done some concrete staining and floor finishing / coating. Very high-end stuff with various coatings, including epoxies. Much bigger concerns regarding yellowing, cracking, water and chemical resistance etc. than canvas coatings for prints, with a much greater cost in $$$ and damage if the materials fail, and I don't think I ever saw any product approach $100 / gallon. If I can get the same results with a more realistic price with a similar, and perhaps even the same formula, I'm all for it. I'm not unconvinced that at least some of the products being marketed as proprietary formulations created exclusively for canvas prints are just repackaged, relabeled existing formulas. I know I've seen it done with papers, canvas and other substrates, so why not coatings? No one will ever admit to that, of course, but I would not be surprised.
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I'm not too sure, consult a professional, but the differences between hvlp sprayers is quite significant.
The self powered and semi-adjustable wagner plug in or any variation of it,
I'd steer away from.
The difference in adjustability with a 3 control hvlp and a small compressor is night and day.
The hvlp will make the work a breeze, but you need a compressor.
So get a 300 dollar 4cfm make sure the gun you get will be supported.
My small pancake compressor works with mine.
I also have a larger 4cfm@60psi I think works better with my conditions.
So look into the cupguns and don't be afraid to step into the realm of something more esoteric.
good luck,
rocco
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John, no, the Rosco Plastic Varnish is water-based and apparently you can achieve varying gloss by mixing matte with gloss. See the specs here:
http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx (http://www.norcostco.com/plasticvarnishgloss-gallon.aspx)
Can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer and judging from the lack of bubbles or edges, appears to be self-leveling as well. I may pick up a gallon of this and experiment as well, especially when you look at some of the dilutions. 1 gallon could turn into 3-4 gallons of workable coating.
Correction: just realized the Plastic Varnish is not a Rosco product, but is made by Sculptural Arts Coatings. I think I'll still give it a test.
Just wondering what your experiences with the Plastic Varnish were? Have you been happy with the Rosco product That I've been using?
John Nollendorfs
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Just wondering what your experiences with the Plastic Varnish were? Have you been happy with the Rosco product That I've been using?
Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.
Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.
Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.
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Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.
Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.
Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.
I'm a little confused, exactly what Rosco product are you using?
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I'm a little confused, exactly what Rosco product are you using?
Rosco Acrylic Glaze, Flat and Gloss mixed proportionally to control sheen. Rosco recommends cutting it 1:1 with water, so it ends up nice and fluid, not goopy like some other options I've tried, and that also makes it a perfect match for the Wagner sprayer, but you don't want to spray this product vertically (not with the Wagner anyways), or even at a steep incline. I took some of the plastic things that are stuck in the tubes of rolls of wide-format paper and canvas and put them on the floor, then taped my prints to foam core and put the top of the foam core on those plastic things. Just a slight incline off the floor. Works PERFECT. Even on my first ones. Praise the Wagner and LL forums. If I was rolling, I would still be rolling for the next 3 days.
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Rosco Acrylic Glaze, Flat and Gloss mixed proportionally to control sheen. Rosco recommends cutting it 1:1 with water, so it ends up nice and fluid, not goopy like some other options I've tried, and that also makes it a perfect match for the Wagner sprayer, but you don't want to spray this product vertically (not with the Wagner anyways), or even at a steep incline. I took some of the plastic things that are stuck in the tubes of rolls of wide-format paper and canvas and put them on the floor, then taped my prints to foam core and put the top of the foam core on those plastic things. Just a slight incline off the floor. Works PERFECT. Even on my first ones. Praise the Wagner and LL forums. If I was rolling, I would still be rolling for the next 3 days.
I have the same gun as you and use it without any problems with glamour II. I was asking about the Rosco because someone was asking for a harder finish for a specific project and I thought it might work but as someone had pointed out earlier some of the acrylics show small cracks all over after a period of time. Thanks for the info. Does it say it is specifically for inkjet coated canvas?
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I've had an interesting problem crop up with the Rosco Clear Acrylic Gloss coating http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp (http://www.rosco.com/us/scenic/glazes.asp)
Even if the prints have dried for several days, if you put them sprayed face to face, they WILL STICK to each other
Rosco does make a "harder" product, that is a water urethane base, but I'm afraid it also might have a cracking problem??
Regarding the "sticking" problem, I did talk to Jason, a rep at Rosco, and he said this is a problem with the "glazes". Not so much with their paint products, but it seems inherent in the Vinyl Acrylic products. He said people have been known to use talc powder to try and prevent the sticking. I asked if using a spray like Krylon UV Resistant Clear Acrylic coating might counter the problem. He said he had no experience--to try a test and see how it works.
I just checked on my South Window tests put up May 14th. I found no color shift on any of the samples. I did find the IJ Technologies coated canvas has taken on a slight yellow/antique tint. compared to my control. I suspect the product has UV brighetners in it which have started to fade. I checked with IJ TEchnologies, and they confirmed that their Water Resistant Canvas does have some UV brighteners in it. But said a good UV protectant top coat should prevent the brightener fade.
Wet tooth brush to clear the spray nozzel is a good tip!
For what it's worth, I spray my prints tacked to a wall with the Wagner HVLP Gun. First coat can go on pretty heavy with no threat of runs. Subsequent coats should be put on much lighter. Yes, I do reverse my spray patterns for each coat. Also, if you do get a slight run or "glob" forming, just gently touch it with a dry paper towel to remove excess. I generally use 3-4 coats.
John Nollendorfs
Funny you should ask, as I just sprayed my first 20 canvasses today. I have some samples of the plastic varnish, but haven't played with them because I am beyond satisfied with the Rosco coating.
Bought the Wagner HVLP cheap spray gun for $68. Wow. Why anyone wants to roll this stuff is beyond me. Or spend boo-koos on a fancy spray unit. I do have some experience spraying (my house) with an airless, but no experience spraying canvas and all 20 of my very first sprays (16x20's and 20x30's) done today are perfect. The Wagner sprayer is PERFECT for this, at least for the Rosco coating. Diluted 1:1 matte:gloss and then diluted that mixture 1:1 with water. Just barely tilted the prints off the floor on a piece of foam core. Not one flaw in any of the prints. Didn't wait between coats, just horizontal, vertical, then horizontal again. Dried perfect, no runs. Did pour the coating through a cone filter, the gloss looked to have some small bits of coagulate that may have fallen in from the rim of the can, but no biggie. I would think pouring any coating through a filter would be standard. Would be for me anyway. The Rosco coating dries fast, and uniform. Stretched a couple of canvasses already and no problems; no cracking. Thank you again for the suggestion.
Here's a tip for the folks using the Wagner. As you know, the coating can coagulate there in the tip. I found a good solution for preventing this altogether is a powered toothbrush. A manual toothbrush would be OK, but the powered toothbrush that vibrates is exceptionally good at preventing any coagulate or getting any loose that may form. After each spray, I dipped the powered toothbrush in warm water and immediately held it on the tip of the gun for a few seconds. Before I started to spray again, I just hit the tip again with the toothbrush. Not one flaw in any prints.
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Even if the prints have dried for several days, if you put them sprayed face to face, they WILL STICK to each other
John Nollendorfs
That's hard to imagine just from touching my prints. There is no tack at all, and I'm in the hot, humid South, but I never put prints on any surface face to face anyway. Always just the opposite, until I stretch them. Then if I ever have to pack them face to face I'm putting a sheet of foam core or cardboard in between.
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If you gallery wrap them, the wrap goes around to the back. If you stack them vertically, they can touch on the edges. Just warning you about unpleasant possible surprises! I'm investigating possible solutions!
John Nollendorfs
That's hard to imagine just from touching my prints. There is no tack at all, and I'm in the hot, humid South, but I never put prints on any surface face to face anyway. Always just the opposite, until I stretch them. Then if I ever have to pack them face to face I'm putting a sheet of foam core or cardboard in between.
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The trade off of any clear finish is finding the right combination of hardness and flexibility. Too hard, and it winds up fracturing over time when it contracts and you wind up with craquelure. Too soft, and it is gummy and sticky. That's what has impressed me about Glamour II, is that it has a very nice balance of the two. I know from decades of painting experience that water borne finishes that are inherently glossy, meaning that they do not have flattening agents mixed into them (usually talc), stay soft and impressionable for quite some time. The paint manufacturers say that semi-gloss and gloss acrylics have a cure time in excess of a month before reaching maximum hardness. Heat accelerates the cure, but exacerbates the softness and stickiness problem until a full cure is reached, if you've ever seen one of these finishes after being left in strong direct sun.
With luck, you will find that the problem with the Rosco product goes away as it reaches a full cure. I've used their scenic paints for a very long time, and they have a great reputation for quality products. Unfortunately, I haven't been willing to experiment with something that we really won't know about for years down the road, when selling a product that I'm promoting as archival. I feel much safer using one of the products tested and promoted for canvas art coatings until there is a wider consensus about the alternatives. I know of a local fine art printer who experimented with third party inks in his Epson and paid the price in only a year's time, and would personally dread a phone call down the road when I heard from a client about one of my pieces failing in some way, as a result of me going off the beaten path. YMMV
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The trade off of any clear finish is finding the right combination of hardness and flexibility. Too hard, and it winds up fracturing over time when it contracts and you wind up with craquelure. Too soft, and it is gummy and sticky. That's what has impressed me about Glamour II, is that it has a very nice balance of the two. I know from decades of painting experience that water borne finishes that are inherently glossy, meaning that they do not have flattening agents mixed into them (usually talc), stay soft and impressionable for quite some time. The paint manufacturers say that semi-gloss and gloss acrylics have a cure time in excess of a month before reaching maximum hardness. Heat accelerates the cure, but exacerbates the softness and stickiness problem until a full cure is reached, if you've ever seen one of these finishes after being left in strong direct sun.
With luck, you will find that the problem with the Rosco product goes away as it reaches a full cure. I've used their scenic paints for a very long time, and they have a great reputation for quality products. Unfortunately, I haven't been willing to experiment with something that we really won't know about for years down the road, when selling a product that I'm promoting as archival. I feel much safer using one of the products tested and promoted for canvas art coatings until there is a wider consensus about the alternatives. I know of a local fine art printer who experimented with third party inks in his Epson and paid the price in only a year's time, and would personally dread a phone call down the road when I heard from a client about one of my pieces failing in some way, as a result of me going off the beaten path. YMMV
This may just be an issue of folks not packing or storing their finished work properly. I never put anything face to face without something neutral in between, usually a piece of foam core. I did spray all these canvasses, let some of them dry for as little as 2-3 hours, then stretched them and had them hanging outside under at tent in 98 degrees high humidity for 2 days. Packed them in cardboard boxes, 2 to a box, back to back, and then they sat in an enclosed van this morning for a few hours before I got them out (tired!). Result? They look great. No scuffs nor marks. Some of the canvasses need to be tensioned a little.
Regarding the Rosco materials, I'm going to put some of these in the direct sun and do some tests. I have numerous friends in stage, TV and film production and everyone - everyone - vouches for the reliability, consistency, and quality of the Rosco coatings. That's why I'm using it. As far as longevity, Rosco has been around a whole lot longer producing products for much more quality critical customers than Breathing Color or Glamour anything, and we won't know the real, actual archival qualities of any of this stuff until the 200-300 years has actually passed. I'll take Rosco's track record and reputation, but if I have any problems or if everything continues to look great, I will definitely report back here.
I don't market anything on canvas I'm spraying goop on as "archival." The whole reason I'm doing canvasses is to use the deep profile stretchers to cut out the framing and glass from my photos to sell to a different buyer. Any photo not behind glass I have a hard time representing as archival. If someone is that concerned about archival qualities, I'm prepared to make a print on ph neutral paper, no coatings, and frame behind glass with museum quality materials. But they are going to have to pay more, a lot more, for that product than for the convenient ready-to-hang work on canvas. For me the coating is about a layer of protection from the elements and to make the canvas "cleanable" and "dustable" more so than to make it archival.
That said, if I have any probems, I'll report back here. I had a friend who did set design for the Met, and the Rosco paints / coatings carried his highest recommendation. Along with virtually all my other pals doing set work. I got the initial idea from Nollendorfs here, then followed up with people using the stuff What really got me moving in that direction away from the Breathing Color's and Clearstars that the only way I could find to get them was off the web. Rosco is more convenient and affordable because I have at least one local supplier. And it sprays great through that cheap Wagner sprayer.
I don't have much experience spraying canvas, but I have years of experience packing, unpacking, shipping and displaying art. I would say the surface of any canvas, sprayed or unsprayed, should not be coming into contact with the front or back of another canvas. Ever. Issues of sticking likely aren't so much a problem with the coating as a problem with one's packing or storage method.
I'm in the south with a south facing porch. Think I'll do 4 prints of the same image, all sprayed with Rosco Clear. One in a dark box. One in a South facing window. One just hanging on a wall. And one tacked up exposed to the sun and elements hanging right off the porch! I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas. I don't know if the Sunset Select Matte Canvas has OBA's.
Thanks to everyone here for all the help, advice and suggestions.
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I'm checking on finding a suitable UV additive to incorporate in the Rosco product, which should make it comparable to the high priced Glamor2 product.
These coating products are not "rocket science". Just takes a bit of detective work. The vinyl acrylics (Rohplex) have been around since the 1950's and are known to exhibit good archival properties.
Regarding "archival" qualities of ink jet canvas', that's been a topic of discussion for quite a while. Canvas is subject to more abuse, than framed under glass prints. The art inkjet papers have much more history about their archival properties. RC photopapers??who know how long the substrate will last? The early photograhic RC papers were very susceptable to break down under UV exposure. Baryta papers?? The photographic versions were around a long time. But as soon as you incorporate the microporous coating???
Most of the research in archival properties have been investigated regarding image stability in accelerated tests for fading from light, and ozone. Stability of the substrate due to aging, humidity, and pollution is much more difficult to accomplish.
Wilhelm has tested a number of Premier coatings with several art papers and found it seemed to enhance the fade resistance by around 25%. (most likely because it seals the microporous coating)He has not tested the Glamour 2 product AFAIK. I will try and check with him (Wilhelm) tomorrow about his canvas coating product experiences. With the growing popularity of canvas printing, I'm sure he would be interested some testing in this area. I'm surprised with the premium price Breathing Color gets for their Glamour II product, they have not had it tested with publicly released results.
John Nollendorfs
I'm in the south with a south facing porch. Think I'll do 4 prints of the same image, all sprayed with Rosco Clear. One in a dark box. One in a South facing window. One just hanging on a wall. And one tacked up exposed to the sun and elements hanging right off the porch! I'm printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas. I don't know if the Sunset Select Matte Canvas has OBA's.
Thanks to everyone here for all the help, advice and suggestions.
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This is a great thread. I am now interested in trying the Gallery wrapping myself. Actually I have done some but it has been several years.
I will start with the roller method but also am interested in making my own stretcher bars (what the canvas is stapled to).
for 11x14 to 24x30 what size wood would be best and do you reinforce/brace the frame/stretcher bar or is this needed for smaller enlargements.
This thread has been very interesting and helpful to me
Thanks
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Larry-
Unless you just like to be around sawdust, I'd have a hard time imagining it worth your while to make a quality 24" x 30" x 1 1/2" deep stretcher, when you can buy them for $7.30 for all 4 pieces online (Gallery Pro bars), with dirt cheap shipping (unless you are in Hawaii, like me). I've priced the DIY option, and it just doesn't seem to make much sense when you look into the cost of materials. I think that 1 1/2" deep stretchers look the nicest for gallery wraps, and 24" x 30" is about as big as I like to go without center supports or diagonal bracing.
http://www.aswexpress.com/search/?search=s...s=1&start=0 (http://www.aswexpress.com/search/?search=stretcher%20bar&site=asw&client=asw&output=xml_no_dtd&q=stretcher%20bar&selLanguages=1&start=0)
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This is a great thread. I am now interested in trying the Gallery wrapping myself. Actually I have done some but it has been several years.
I will start with the roller method but also am interested in making my own stretcher bars (what the canvas is stapled to).
for 11x14 to 24x30 what size wood would be best and do you reinforce/brace the frame/stretcher bar or is this needed for smaller enlargements.
This thread has been very interesting and helpful to me
Thanks
If you have a wood shop and the skills, making your own stretcher bars could be worthwhile. I used preconstructed, prestretched canvasses. I just stretched my canvas over the existing canvas. Worked great, and was less expensive than ordering stretcher bars (if you order more than 6) and they show up ready to use. I don't think you will need a brace for 11x14 to 24x30. Mine have no braces and they are very solid. This is for 1.5" profile stretchers. You might need a cross brace for the thinner, shallow profile stretcher bars.
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Hmmm . . . I've thought about just stretching over an existing, pre-stretched canvas before, when I've been in a bind. I can't buy deeper stretchers a la carte locally, and if someone wants one quickly, the best option is to use a prestretched one. The double fold thickness at the corners is what ultimately made me decide to remove the old canvas and just recycle the frame. Has that not been an issue for you? I cut away a good portion of the canvas at the corner and use a fold technique like the manufactureed canvases, but there is still a folded under tab that has a slight lump on the top and bottom of each corner. I didn't want to see that thickness doubled by stretching over the one underneath.
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The double fold thickness at the corners is what ultimately made me decide to remove the old canvas and just recycle the frame. Has that not been an issue for you? I cut away a good portion of the canvas at the corner and use a fold technique like the manufactureed canvases, but there is still a folded under tab that has a slight lump on the top and bottom of each corner. I didn't want to see that thickness doubled by stretching over the one underneath.
It's not an issue. I cut off the corners, but if you fold under and crease it, the canvas will show you where you can cut away virtually all of the excess canvas, so no lump. This HP video pretty well shows the technique I use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdzh8JSnW04 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdzh8JSnW04)
Thanks for the link to the gallery pro stretcher bars. The blick prestretched worked great for me under a deadline, (they got here FAST) and for smaller sizes, but I'm going to try the gallery pro bars for some 40x50's.
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While we are still going hot on canvas stretching, any one have experience with staplers? I've got a Heavy Duty Arrow, but would not like using it for more than an occasional frame. And if it hits a hard spot. . .
Seem to be several electric models, but doing some preliminary research, sounds like most of these under $50 models don't perform that well for driving anything heavier than 3/8". And they seem to malfunction.
Then there's Harbor Freight air models for $20. Sounds like these would drive 1/2" staples better.
John Nollendorfs
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If you have a wood shop and the skills, making your own stretcher bars could be worthwhile. I used preconstructed, prestretched canvasses. I just stretched my canvas over the existing canvas. Worked great, and was less expensive than ordering stretcher bars (if you order more than 6) and they show up ready to use. I don't think you will need a brace for 11x14 to 24x30. Mine have no braces and they are very solid. This is for 1.5" profile stretchers. You might need a cross brace for the thinner, shallow profile stretcher bars.
I certainly do not have any particular skills (although I have a miter saw) but I looked up stretcher bars with LexJet and it was like $70 but for under $10 there is no way I would bother with doing it on such a small volume.
Thanks for the very valuable information.
I am planning on manually stretching (there is a stretching tool that will aid this) rather tedious but for starters it will do.
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I think what you saw, Larry, on the LexJet site was probably Hahnemuhle gallery wraps, which are a totally different animal. They have a unique design, and the corners look quite slick, with the canvas folded inside the corners of the frame's mitre, but they are a highly engineered product, not unlike something sold at Ikea. There isn't a sliver more wood than they need, and the fact that double-sided tape is used in the assembly means that these are depending on an adhesive product for a portion of their longevity. It's quite likely that they will last a very long time, as the design is undeniably clever, but the high cost and untested technology (over time) makes me reluctant to try them over less expensive but more safe options. All that said, for someone who has not stretched canvases before, these seem like a great way to get their feet wet with canvas stretching.
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Larry-
Unless you just like to be around sawdust, I'd have a hard time imagining it worth your while to make a quality 24" x 30" x 1 1/2" deep stretcher, when you can buy them for $7.30 for all 4 pieces online (Gallery Pro bars), with dirt cheap shipping (unless you are in Hawaii, like me). I've priced the DIY option, and it just doesn't seem to make much sense when you look into the cost of materials. I think that 1 1/2" deep stretchers look the nicest for gallery wraps, and 24" x 30" is about as big as I like to go without center supports or diagonal bracing.
http://www.aswexpress.com/search/?search=s...s=1&start=0 (http://www.aswexpress.com/search/?search=stretcher%20bar&site=asw&client=asw&output=xml_no_dtd&q=stretcher%20bar&selLanguages=1&start=0)
I looked at the site. I think I will try these at various sizes. Do you staple these together or underpin/nail them?
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Just an FYI to everyone.
Framedestination makes premade stretcher bars that are really really nice. Luckily for me they are local, so I put my order in and I get a call the next day to pick them up. The bars are very high quality and perfectly straight.
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Just an FYI to everyone.
Framedestination makes premade stretcher bars that are really really nice. Luckily for me they are local, so I put my order in and I get a call the next day to pick them up. The bars are very high quality and perfectly straight.
Thanks for the link. certainly would work for a reasonable price.
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Thanks for the link. certainly would work for a reasonable price.
They really are high quality. Much better than anything you can buy at a store and staple/nail together
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Hello - new here,
I'm looking for some guidance on varnished / glazes on printed canvases. Current problem is that the glaze (574 Clear Acrylic Glaze / http://www.superfpaint.com/cal-western-artistic-acrylic-colors/ (http://www.superfpaint.com/cal-western-artistic-acrylic-colors/)) and printed canvas (Artex Canvas is a 9 oz. canvas textile with a PVC coating... / http://www.ultraflexx.com/products/specialty-media/artex-canvas) combination has left the end product 'tacky / sticky' to the touch.
I'd like to know if its the PVC coating on the canvas mentioned causing the glaze to be 'tacky' or if it could be that the glaze needs to be diluted with water (1:1)?
Or in other words, what solutions have people found in resolving a 'tacky / sticky' finish to a canvas after it has been glazed / varnished?
Side note: Have recently purchased trial roll of Breathing Color Lyve and would like to know what glazes / varnishes are recommended? Have not tested the canvas yet but afraid that if I use the '574 Clear Acrylic Glaze' as-is, that it will dry 'tacky / sticky'
Help, guidance, assistance would be much appreciated.
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Try Breathing Color's Glamour II or Breathing Color's Timeless.
You can try rolling, which can be an art in itself ;), but it's easier to apply by hvlp sprayer.